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F1 2022 season - Michael Masi sacked

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Post by Jeff Navarro Wed 05 Jan 2022, 1:02 pm

First topic message reminder :

Otmar Szafnauer has left Aston Martin, widely expected, after Martin Whitmarsh joined the team.


Last edited by Jeff Navarro on Thu 17 Feb 2022, 1:42 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by GSC Tue 21 Jun 2022, 4:46 pm

I can't see that, Toto is well aware his post race comments to Lewis are public. I suggest that one was more part of a connected Mercedes message to the fia
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Post by dyrewolfe Tue 21 Jun 2022, 4:48 pm

No name Bertie wrote:A recent comment by Toto Wolf makes me think that Mercedes current design has to be run low to be competitive (unlocking its design performance) which makes me think they are in a cul-de-sac.

Which is precisely why they should have ditched it much earlier as soon as they realised this, instead of trying to polish a turd for the last few months.

Wait until the design team can figure a way to make the no-pod design actually work on track (to be revealed with much fanfare as a major upgrade if and when they get it to work) and in the meantime let the drivers save their backs by racing the pre-season design and bring incremental upgrades to improve that.
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Post by Jeff Navarro Tue 21 Jun 2022, 5:35 pm

dyrewolfe wrote:
Jeff Navarro wrote:Belgian GP will be dropped to accommodate Las Vegas according to leaked documents.
Seems odd how Liberty requested Spa’s owners make changes to the track only to screw them over.

F1 2022 season - Michael Masi sacked - Page 14 Giphy

This is the downside of American owners...trying to push crappy US street circuits and dropping classic European tracks.  steam
If Liberty axes Monaco GP, with Paul Ricard also gone after 2022. Stefano Domenicali has suggested that he would be open to a French GP in Nice, on you guessed it a street circuit. This would form as a compromise for the removal of Monaco and Paul Ricard…

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Post by Jeff Navarro Tue 21 Jun 2022, 5:42 pm

I think what needs to be acknowledged with Mercedes is also that the original W13, sidepod version, was designed by the legendary James Allison. Allison doesn’t work with the F1 team anymore. He was promoted and is making a boat for Ben Ainsley for the Americas Cup.

This b spec ‘no pod’ car is designed by Allison’s replacement Mike Elliott.

Essentially Mercedes threw all the efforts into winning 2021, as Allison took his eye off the 2022 design, which ended up pretty slow. And then he moved on to making boats.

Mike Elliott’s design isn’t a fresh design per se, it’s a design of both Allison’s concept but the ‘no pods’ to counter lack of performance.

And it’s obviously proving you can’t just add bits from two designs to solve issues.

Mercedes may well end up stuck in this cycle until 2026. As with the cap they probably can’t solve these issues.

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Post by GSC Tue 21 Jun 2022, 10:40 pm

Juri Vips has done a Dan Ticktum
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Post by Jeff Navarro Wed 22 Jun 2022, 10:12 am

Sergio Perez damaged his neck from the incident in Montreal. He’s undergoing treatment, but there’s a chance he could miss British GP if the doctors refuse to clear him to race.

As for Vips, probably not the best time to be a piece of garbage, when Perez is injured.

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Post by Fluxy Wed 22 Jun 2022, 11:12 am

dyrewolfe wrote:
GSC wrote:It's not close though. I don't think they've outqualified a RB or Ferrari on pace outside of Russell beating Perez in Spain. The best they do in races is hope the front runners have issues. Lewis was happy after yesterday's race at only dropping 7 seconds in 16 laps, after being 20 seconds behind Max before the safety car.

They need to get real about this concept and what potential is left in it, because they're not close to the top 2 even on good weekends

Its like I've been saying for quite a while now, whatever performance gains the computer modelling told them they'd get from the "no-pod" design has been wiped out (and then some) by the bouncing & porpoising.

They could solve (or at least dramatically reduce) that issue by reverting to the conventional design they used at Barcelona in pre-season. It would at least give them a more stable, driveable and spine-friendly platform to develop. Though its looking increasingly like any re-visitation will happen next season, given we're nearly halfway through this one.

The Merc is nowhere near being a race winner and they're currently having to rely on RB and Ferrari having issues to grab podiums. The fact they've enjoyed a fair bit of luck so far shouldn't disguise the fact they are woefully off the pace.


Canada certainly wasn't a classic thanks to the sudden change to dry conditions. Only the Safety Car stopped Max running away into the distance and made for a close battle over the closing laps. I have a feeling if it had been Leclerc in 2nd place, he may have created a couple of real overtaking opportunities. Sadly Max was just too good and/or had enough battery power to defend against Carlos.

Also think both Ferrari drivers are being handicapped by their strategists and pit crews. Seemed to be asleep on the job again, failing to react to the VSC and generally being off the pace with their pit stops.

Mercedes again benefitting from Leclerc's grid penalty and Perez DNF-ing. Still at least they are making the most of their opportunities.

Decent race for Alpine and Alfa with both cars finishing in the points. Stroll even gave the Canadian fans something to cheer about.

It did seem at the time, that Sainz taking those hard tyres was a conservative choice. Would have liked Ferrari to have been the aggressors and bolted on mediums. There wasn't much performance difference it seemed, although it could have at least made RB and Max concerned. Those tyres should have been enough to at least maintain 2nd place anyway. However, it's Ferrari, and they are running strategy masterclasses most weekends (not!)

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Post by Jeff Navarro Wed 22 Jun 2022, 1:05 pm

There was literally zero chance Sainz would be put on to a set of used mediums after the Tsunoda safety car.
Ferrari has considerably more tyre wear than Red Bull, and the used medium wouldn’t have lasted until the end.
Had Sainz taken that used medium, even had he gotten ahead, Verstappen would’ve retaken the lead the the tyre literally hit the cliff.
Even on the fresh hard tyre, by the last lap, Sainz’s tyres had dropped off. In fact he didn’t even get DRS on the last lap

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Post by GSC Wed 22 Jun 2022, 1:08 pm

Teams were dumping the mediums after about 5 or 6 laps in the race, the hards ended up being the only good race tyre
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Post by GSC Wed 22 Jun 2022, 5:58 pm

Dont think Toto has made many friends amongst his fellow team bosses in the last week or so
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Post by Jeff Navarro Thu 23 Jun 2022, 9:11 am

GSC wrote:Dont think Toto has made many friends amongst his fellow team bosses in the last week or so
Binotto was, as I’ve been told, absolutely raging at Wolff. Bear in mind Binotto doesn’t really do ‘angry’.

Bearing in mind Ferrari still angry when Allison quit Maranello to join Mercedes back in 2017.

Wolff was demanding mass dampers and active suspension. The vote was 1-9 against - even the Mercedes backed teams rejected.

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Post by GSC Thu 23 Jun 2022, 9:31 am

Even Otmar who ran FI/RP when they were effectively a Mercedes feeder team was basically one step removed from calling out collusion between the FIA and Mercedes over the TD
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Post by Jeff Navarro Thu 23 Jun 2022, 9:35 am

Italian reports suggesting Ferrari will file motion to annul the TD with CAS.

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Post by GSC Fri 24 Jun 2022, 8:55 am

Yeah the rest of the teams were fairly unanimous that the FIA don't have the authority to implement these changes in a technical directive. Probably why Mercedes took it off the car
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Post by Jeff Navarro Fri 24 Jun 2022, 11:39 am

McLaren announced no more upgrades in 2022 as they’ve got their concept wrong.
Norris’ decision to re-up until the end of 2025, with no break clause, seeming very unwise.

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Post by No name Bertie Fri 24 Jun 2022, 12:28 pm

Jeff Navarro wrote:McLaren announced no more upgrades in 2022 as they’ve got their concept wrong...
So they are writing off the season?  It is a bold statement but if the "concept" is wrong it is wrong.  I wonder if any other teams will admit to getting the concept wrong.  ps: when Perez's car was craned out of the Canadian circuit - everybody got to see the underside of the car. I wonder whether this is an issue regarding teams that want to keep their designs secret if it is giving them an advantage.


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Post by No name Bertie Fri 24 Jun 2022, 12:36 pm

Jeff Navarro wrote:Italian reports suggesting Ferrari will file motion to annul the TD with CAS.
This is the Technical Directive for which the FIA got independent medical advice that stated that the degree of porpoising / bottoming experienced in Baku was a health and safety issue for drivers and that they are going to investigate it and put limits on it? Apparently 19 out of the 20 drivers "complained" about it at Baku in some behind the scenes racing drivers meeting. I can see Ferrari's potential concern because they have a lot of porpoising but it doesn't seem to affect their performance because apparently it doesn't occur in the critical areas such as breaking zones.

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Post by GSC Fri 24 Jun 2022, 2:17 pm

The part they disagree with more is the allowance of an extra floor stay, which nobody else had enough time to design and produce between the TD and FP1 in Canada bar Mercedes
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Post by Jeff Navarro Fri 24 Jun 2022, 7:17 pm

It’s not just the additional floor stay. In Montreal, just for that race, Mercedes was allowed to reinforce the exposed part of their floor near the rear wheels.

And as soon as Ferrari’s process with CAS was revealed, Mercedes proclaimed today ‘we can’t raise the car any further’.

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Post by No name Bertie Fri 24 Jun 2022, 8:01 pm

Okay so the FIA have identified porpoising / bottoming as a H&S issue and with enforceable limits - with raising the ride height as a short term directive.   To be decided / negotiated is whether the technical regulations will remain exactly the same or whether they will modified in light of the H&S issue.  From the above comment Mercedes are claiming there is a limit to how high they can raise the ride height of the current design of their car - which presumably they will have to convince the FIA that this is really the case.  If it is really the case and the FIA do not change the technical regulations then presumably Mercedes will have to withdraw their current car from the championship.

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Post by Jeff Navarro Fri 24 Jun 2022, 8:24 pm

I think it’s essentially got to the point where Mercedes are still unwilling to make concessions to their design and are literally begging the FIA change the rules.
The other 9 teams have already indicated they aren’t going to pass a solution that massively benefits Mercedes.
As McLaren has shown they are willing to accept they made an error. Maybe Mercedes should be doing the same.

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Post by No name Bertie Fri 24 Jun 2022, 10:12 pm

I thought Toto Wolf had admitted making mistakes in the design during the Canadian Race Weekend after the FIA ruling that it was a H&S issue but it seems he is now entering into battle to get the regulations modified rather than giving up and starting again like what McLaren appear to be doing.  Whatever is decided I think most people want it to be fair so that teams that got it right are not penalized.  For me Ferrari is the test case because they seem to have porpoising on most tracks and although it doesn't seem to affect their performance they will surely be impacted on the limits that will soon be set - but they are happy to comply within the existing technical regulations.

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Post by Jeff Navarro Sat 25 Jun 2022, 9:44 am

Wolff admitted the W13 concept is wrong, but rather than do what McLaren did. Mercedes still keep pledging for active suspension. So it shows rather than fix their failings, they want the FIA to level the playing field. Which shouldn’t even be option.

Additionally, in the Italian press, they claim Red Bull ran the RB18 higher in Montreal to do what performance they’d lose. From the photos I’ve seen, it’s pretty inconclusive, but they are still quick.

So essentially if this TD remains, it’s Mercedes and Ferrari that are screwed.

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Post by GSC Sat 25 Jun 2022, 10:35 am

I'm not unsympathetic to the H/S argument. But we're less than half a season into brand new regs. Given some further development I'm sure the teams can dial this out for future iterations of these cars.

I'm somewhat (very) cynical but I would imagine Lewis wouldn't be hobbling out of the car if it was to celebrate a race win. Some of Mercedes campaign is a bit transparent to me
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Post by dyrewolfe Yesterday at 11:26 am

Jeff Navarro wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:
Jeff Navarro wrote:Belgian GP will be dropped to accommodate Las Vegas according to leaked documents.
Seems odd how Liberty requested Spa’s owners make changes to the track only to screw them over.

F1 2022 season - Michael Masi sacked - Page 14 Giphy

This is the downside of American owners...trying to push crappy US street circuits and dropping classic European tracks.  steam
If Liberty axes Monaco GP, with Paul Ricard also gone after 2022. Stefano Domenicali has suggested that he would be open to a French GP in Nice, on you guessed it a street circuit. This would form as a compromise for the removal of Monaco and Paul Ricard…

Well I wouldn't be sad to see Monaco go, but what's wrong with Paul Ricard? I seem to recall it produced a couple of decent races when it was brought back.

Even with that, why not bring back Magny Cours?


The longer Liberty's ownership goes on, the less impressed I am with them...
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Post by dyrewolfe Yesterday at 11:29 am

Jeff Navarro wrote:I think what needs to be acknowledged with Mercedes is also that the original W13, sidepod version, was designed by the legendary James Allison. Allison doesn’t work with the F1 team anymore. He was promoted and is making a boat for Ben Ainsley for the Americas Cup.

This b spec ‘no pod’ car is designed by Allison’s replacement Mike Elliott.

Essentially Mercedes threw all the efforts into winning 2021, as Allison took his eye off the 2022 design, which ended up pretty slow. And then he moved on to making boats.

Mike Elliott’s design isn’t a fresh design per se, it’s a design of both Allison’s concept but the ‘no pods’ to counter lack of performance.

And it’s obviously proving you can’t just add bits from two designs to solve issues.

Mercedes may well end up stuck in this cycle until 2026. As with the cap they probably can’t solve these issues.


As I suspected, Mercedes may well have no option but to suffer through this season and hope that when they start working on next season's car, their engineers can solve the problems that have plagued them.

At least they have no excuse not to start as soon as possible and throw all their resources at the new car.

Given that the details of Red Bull's floor have been made public, I would be surprised if a lot of teams don't try to copy it...without making it look too obvious that they've copied it. Wink
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Post by dyrewolfe Yesterday at 11:40 am

GSC wrote:Dont think Toto has made many friends amongst his fellow team bosses in the last week or so

He's become very Christian Horner-y of late and its very unbecoming of him, given his usual calm, reserved demeanour.

To be honest he shouldn't expect much sympathy (read "none") from the other team bosses, given how his team dominated for so long. He's admitted the car is crap and he should be focusing his energies on driving the team to sort out their issues, instead of asking for favours.
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Post by Jeff Navarro Yesterday at 12:56 pm

dyrewolfe wrote:
Jeff Navarro wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:
Jeff Navarro wrote:Belgian GP will be dropped to accommodate Las Vegas according to leaked documents.
Seems odd how Liberty requested Spa’s owners make changes to the track only to screw them over.

F1 2022 season - Michael Masi sacked - Page 14 Giphy

This is the downside of American owners...trying to push crappy US street circuits and dropping classic European tracks.  steam
If Liberty axes Monaco GP, with Paul Ricard also gone after 2022. Stefano Domenicali has suggested that he would be open to a French GP in Nice, on you guessed it a street circuit. This would form as a compromise for the removal of Monaco and Paul Ricard…

Well I wouldn't be sad to see Monaco go, but what's wrong with Paul Ricard? I seem to recall it produced a couple of decent races when it was brought back.

Even with that, why not bring back Magny Cours?


The longer Liberty's ownership goes on, the less impressed I am with them...
I’m pretty certain Paul Ricard is owned by Bernie and Liberty doesn’t want any dealings with him anymore.

Magny Cours needs major upgrades to the pit complex for these new generation cars and I don’t think they can afford it.

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Post by Jeff Navarro Yesterday at 1:00 pm

Red Bull will not bring their next major upgrade until after the summer break.
There’s been plenty of reports in the Italian press that the Ferrari engines will have to be run more conservatively until the can implement changes over the summer break.

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Post by No name Bertie Today at 1:55 pm

This year the narrative has been Mercedes dropping back into third position, porpoising and unlocking the potential, then there is Ferrari and Red Bull out in front, reliability issues, first Red Bull and now Ferrari with an engine that can't handle the strain.  Meanwhile there are another seven teams not doing so well, with Williams again right at the back, and McLaren and Aston Martin not doing as well as some may have hoped.  There was a hope that the regulation change might see the other teams closing the gap to the front but that hasn't happened in this first year of the regulation change - in fact it seems to have widened.

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