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Ashes 2021/22 and other cricket through the winter of 2021 thread

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Post by VTR Mon 24 Jan - 8:09

First topic message reminder :

Don't know anything about that number 9 and 10, are they decent hitters that just happen to be low in the order, or were England again awarding outlier performances to the opposition?

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Post by alfie Thu 10 Mar - 14:38

Rather amusing that they'd just played that montage of blocks and leaves to demonstrate Holder's excellent judgement of when to leave ... just as it fails him . A variation of the " commentator's curse" Smile

Considering many feel Stokes' bowling could be a much more minor feature on this trip , the fact that he has taken two of the first five wickets to fall can be taken as either encouraging news - or something of an indictment of the other bowlers...

In any case a handy start to the day for England. Apart from the wicket , the scoring has been virtually non existent so far - just a few nudged singles. Get one of these two before the new ball and the tail might be rather vulnerable so it's understandable they are watchful ; but on the other hand they are still 99 behind so a string of quiet overs with the old ball is also in England's interest .

And so nearly another for Stokes ! Bouncer catches Bonner off guard and Pope just fails to grab it as he dives...Stokes still making things happen thumbsup

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Post by alfie Thu 10 Mar - 15:52

Good and important stand this for West Indies as the 250 comes up and England are turning to Jack Leach after only nine overs with the new ball...

Woakes in particular bowled pretty well this morning in contrast to yesterday. But with the lead now only 56 ...now 52...as Leach is not putting it where he wanted : I am afraid this is rather slipping away
from England for all they have been better today. Bonner has been equal to the task and well supported by Da Silva.

Back to Stokes in search of inspiration...

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Thu 10 Mar - 15:54

It's a bloody good job Stokes can bowl - Overton bowling mid 70s with the second new ball, shockingly Chris Woakes is ineffective overseas and surprisingly Mark Wood is off injured. Good stuff
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Post by king_carlos Thu 10 Mar - 15:59

Just be grateful Overton put that extra yard of pace on, Olly. He'd have been Collingwood's pace today with that.

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Post by alfie Thu 10 Mar - 16:04

So West Indies win the morning session again : well played these two fellows clap

I'm off ... Try and keep them from getting too big a lead please chaps ? And hopefully avoid an England second innings collapse...

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Thu 10 Mar - 16:09

alfie wrote:So West Indies win the morning session again : well played these two fellows  clap

I'm off ... Try and keep them from getting too big a lead please chaps ? And hopefully avoid an England second innings collapse...

More worried about getting to the second innings at the moment Alfie! Smile
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Post by Duty281 Thu 10 Mar - 16:14

Another wasted new ball and West Indies just about on top. If they bat through the afternoon, they should have a solid lead. England one away from the tail, yes, but Joseph can give the ball some tap, and bowling against the tail is generally an England weakness (see India 2021).

Overton is simply not test class. Woakes is not test class overseas. I feel these things were already known, but the England selectors ploughed on regardless. Concerningly, they'll probably play the whole series, as Mahmood is likely to swap around for Wood at some point, and Robinson is unlikely to recover. I suppose Fisher might get a test. If these were the only bowlers England had available, fine you have to work with it, but they willingly left Anderson and Broad at home. Madness.

Credit again to the West Indies for good batting discipline on a slow track. The last series England won v Sri Lanka, the opposition queued up to surrender their wickets. Bit different here.

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Post by guildfordbat Thu 10 Mar - 16:56

Hi folks - not able to watch atm. What's going on with Wood? Is he off the field? Thanks.

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Post by Gooseberry Thu 10 Mar - 16:58

Englands ability to make West Indies batsman look credible is becoming the stuff of legends. Every series this happens. Its just exasperating.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Thu 10 Mar - 17:00

Wood apparently has an elbow issue Guildford - off the field still

Leach gets the breakthrough as for no apparent reason De Silva tries to work one off middle stump through square leg and is LBW. A shocking shot
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Post by guildfordbat Thu 10 Mar - 17:03

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Wood apparently has an elbow issue Guildford - off the field still

Leach gets the breakthrough as for no apparent reason De Silva tries to work one off middle stump through square leg and is LBW. A shocking shot

Thanks, Olly.

We sure needed that wicket. Now to get about the tail ....

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Post by Gooseberry Thu 10 Mar - 17:04

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Wood apparently has an elbow issue Guildford - off the field still

Leach gets the breakthrough as for no apparent reason De Silva tries to work one off middle stump through square leg and is LBW. A shocking shot

The reason is hes really mediocre. They may as well had a tin of custard bowling at them, just aim at the stumps and sooner or later they player will get themselves out failing to line up bat and ball.


Hopefully Woods elbow wont stop him bowling at the tail, could really do with the odd 90mph ball to go through them.

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Post by Duty281 Thu 10 Mar - 17:05

Who has told Overton to bowl short stuff?! At his pace it's about as intimidating as an episode of Songs of Praise.

And the West Indies still get out to it! Doh

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Thu 10 Mar - 17:06

What on earth is that from Joseph?
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Post by Gooseberry Thu 10 Mar - 17:08

Here we go...Overton gets in the act. Could this finally be the much anticipated crumbling of Wi resistance when they remember they dont actually have any batting?

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Post by Gooseberry Thu 10 Mar - 17:09

Duty281 wrote:Who has told Overton to bowl short stuff?! At his pace it's about as intimidating as an episode of Songs of Praise.

And the West Indies still get out to it! Doh

Its how hes got both his wickets.....

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Thu 10 Mar - 18:04

Wood not expected to bowl again this innings with an elbow issue

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Post by Duty281 Thu 10 Mar - 18:21

This partnership is best described as 'an event'.

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Post by AlciG Thu 10 Mar - 18:37

WI's with a 1st innings lead... who would have thought. I kept expecting a collapse that hasn't come.


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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Thu 10 Mar - 18:46

Duty281 wrote:This partnership is best described as 'an event'.

A contender for the dullest session of cricket I've watched that one. West Indies won't mind too much though, taken the lead and getting more and more overs into an England bowling attack that is down it's two best seamers one innings into the tour already!
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Post by Gooseberry Thu 10 Mar - 19:02

Majority of the WI line up have outscored their FC averages. Only England can be this ineffectual with the ball so consistently . Another demonstration of why the changes need to be much deeper than just team selections or a coach change. Our players are just clueless when it comes to bowling outside England, and thats even before we look at the state of the top order.

Nothing new but underlines all the worst aspects of just how much standards have been allowed to slip.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Thu 10 Mar - 19:21

Nothing happening bowling or pitch wise, but Roach contrives to gift his wicket via a run out after a belligerent stay. England need to take advantage of that break and wrap this up sharply
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Post by Gooseberry Thu 10 Mar - 19:27

Century for Bonner just before the run out...Leach has had a couple of close chances (dropped catch, umpires call review) to get him but really this is a guy with a first class average of 28.

Stokes giving him some hostile stuff but going for runs rather than the wicket....oooph survives on review as I type. Does look like hes on borrowed time at least, probably going to swipe out a bit more now hes with the final couple of non batters


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Post by Duty281 Thu 10 Mar - 20:00

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
Duty281 wrote:This partnership is best described as 'an event'.

A contender for the dullest session of cricket I've watched that one. West Indies won't mind too much though, taken the lead and getting more and more overs into an England bowling attack that is down it's two best seamers one innings into the tour already!

This session starting to rival it! England happy to let the West Indies have two singles an over; West Indies happy to take them.

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Post by Gooseberry Thu 10 Mar - 20:09

Leach needs to lend the umpire a few quid. Two lbws lost out on umpires call to Bonner now as well as the dropped catch,.

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Post by VTR Thu 10 Mar - 20:44

This will be a slow pitch that its almost impossible to get out even the Windies numbers 9 and 10. Then England will bat on it!

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Post by Duty281 Thu 10 Mar - 20:47

Some of these umpiring decisions are almost as dodgy as England's bowling.

Incidentally, this is Bonner's 80th FC game. His highest score is currently 135, but he's just 15 away from bettering that. Will England even bat tonight?

Cricviz stat: 86 English bowlers have delivered 2000+ deliveries in away Tests. None of them have a worse bowling average in those matches than Chris Woakes (53.50).

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Post by VTR Thu 10 Mar - 20:57

Ah, so it's another tour of the Windies and going to be another player filling their boots/bowling arm with a career best

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Post by Gooseberry Thu 10 Mar - 20:59

VTR wrote:This will be a slow pitch that its almost impossible to get out even the Windies numbers 9 and 10. Then England will bat on it!

You can be forgiven for forgetting they already did given how briefly it lasted!


7 of the 10 WI batsmen have now increased their FC averages from this innings. Losing Wood was a blow, Leach shouldve had Bonner a number of times, Stokes has roughed a few players up, but overall its the same old story. Absolutely toothless and somehow making poor batsmen look competent and confident.

Its right back to the 90s, cant bat, cant bowl, cant win. Embarrassing.

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Post by Duty281 Thu 10 Mar - 21:04

On the positive side, England will get the third new ball early tomorrow. With a bit of luck the West Indies may be bowled out by lunch.

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Post by Gooseberry Thu 10 Mar - 21:12

Test high score for Permaul...this guy has 3 fc 50s

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Thu 10 Mar - 21:19

Stokes is moving about as well as me after the first 45 overs of keeping of the season. So much for managing his workload
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Post by Duty281 Thu 10 Mar - 21:25

Top effort from Bonner. Just 170 runs so far today, proper attritional stuff.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Thu 10 Mar - 21:46

That was quite frankly a rubbish day of cricket

WI will be happier of the two sides for sure, hard to see them losing from here now
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Post by Duty281 Thu 10 Mar - 22:51

Yep, West Indies definitely shouldn't lose from here. It'll be a test of England's resolve as they face scoreboard pressure - it'll take them at least 20 overs to regain parity, maybe as high as 35 overs if the West Indies go on a little tomorrow and scoring rates are similar to today, and by that time in the first innings England were four down. If the same happens again then the West Indies will be confident of victory.

But today was another low for English cricket. Five wickets taken all day, two to bad deliveries and one was a run-out.

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Post by alfie Thu 10 Mar - 22:52

Ha...I see West Indies have managed to somewhat upset the pre-series theme that they are awful with the bat (like England) so very low scoring games are assured...

Took them a while. Glad I opted for sleep I think.

Wood joins the injury list now ?! Wow. The reserve fast bowler getting his kit packed I guess... Pity his name isn't , say , Broad ? Or Anderson ...

One game at a time . One day at a time so England really need to bat properly on day four (presuming they ever take the tenth !) and set up the logical draw : lost this and I can see them getting whitewashed here - which would be ...embarassing .

Enjoy the cricket everyone , see you next week.

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Post by guildfordbat Thu 10 Mar - 23:22

Hope you have a good few days away, Alfie.

Well it wasn't quick but that was still some moving day. I'll let Duty and others do the numbers but maybe changing from something like 60/40 in our favour last night to 70/30 in favour of the Windies tonight. However you cut it, they're ahead now for sure.

Bonner had the odd slice of luck but deserved it with his massive application and some skill. Mighty handy and determined support from Da Silve, Roach and Permaul as well.

I can't fault Wood's talent or attitude but again he - or at least his body's frailty - wasn't up to the job as I feared and that played havoc with the rest of the England bowling machine and especially overburdened Stokes. As Olly and others flagged, heaven knows how a guy meant to being eased back in will feel when he wakes up tomorrow!

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Post by Duty281 Thu 10 Mar - 23:32

“Absolutely not,” replied Collingwood when asked if he was disappointed with England’s bowlers. “I thought today was probably one of the best efforts I’ve seen in an England shirt and in Test cricket.

“To go for 170 runs and take five wickets today is a pretty good effort, especially backing that up from two sessions in the field yesterday. I thought the fitness levels the guys showed and the attitude in the field was exceptional.”


Collingwood's either been hitting the Cuba Libres with reckless abandon, or he's taken the same PR course as Joe Root.

West Indies certainly ahead, but the draw's also come into the equation now, with only 19 wickets in the first three days. How much resistance will England manage tomorrow, is the key question.

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Post by guildfordbat Fri 11 Mar - 0:21

Duty281 wrote:“Absolutely not,” replied Collingwood when asked if he was disappointed with England’s bowlers. “I thought today was probably one of the best efforts I’ve seen in an England shirt and in Test cricket.

“To go for 170 runs and take five wickets today is a pretty good effort, especially backing that up from two sessions in the field yesterday. I thought the fitness levels the guys showed and the attitude in the field was exceptional.”


Collingwood's either been hitting the Cuba Libres with reckless abandon, or he's taken the same PR course as Joe Root.

West Indies certainly ahead, but the draw's also come into the equation now, with only 19 wickets in the first three days. How much resistance will England manage tomorrow, is the key question.

Very glad I missed Collingwood's interview on that basis!

In talking about taking five wickets in the day, he appears to (deliberately) overlook that they were four down at the start and so we were only gunning for the middle order and tail.

As for bragging about the fitness levels, a couple of points. Firstly, he conveniently overlooks Mark Wood and his all too regular sicknote. Secondly, yes, the others may have run around and given it everything but not that long ago Mo Farah and Jessica Ennis-Hill were top notch international athletes. However, I would never have wanted either of them sharing the new ball for England!

Btw, I wasn't meaning to rule out the draw in my last post but just emphasising how much change there had been during the day in the dominance of the two sides.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Fri 11 Mar - 5:02

So it turns out Wood had a pain killing injection in his right elbow before the tour, to help “manage the issue” - which has now, unsurprisingly, flared up again.

Somehow makes the decision to not even bring Broad or Anderson even more baffling!
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Post by VTR Fri 11 Mar - 7:41

Very doubtful England will grind this out today. Bowl 10 dots at most of them and they will get bored and try a flashy drive or something. Prediction from here is Windies win by 5 wickets

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Post by Soul Requiem Fri 11 Mar - 8:00

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:So it turns out Wood had a pain killing injection in his right elbow before the tour, to help “manage the issue” - which has now, unsurprisingly, flared up again.

Somehow makes the decision to not even bring Broad or Anderson even more baffling!

By believing the decision to be baffling you're giving the selectors far too much credit. The stupidity of the decision means it's the only reasonable decision to expect them to make.

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Post by JDizzle Fri 11 Mar - 9:20

To be fair to the selectors it’s been at least 18 months since they broke Jofra by forcing him to play with a dodgy elbow after pain killing injections. How could they possibly have remembered that far back.

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Post by Gooseberry Fri 11 Mar - 9:20

Oh the memories of all those glorious tours when England thrashed the West indies with broanderson leading the attack.

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Post by VTR Fri 11 Mar - 10:10

Gooseberry wrote:Oh the memories of all those glorious tours when England thrashed the West indies with broanderson leading the attack.

Was going to make this point yesterday. They've featured in precisely 0 winning series in the Windies. Abject batting cost some Tests, but the bowlers also have black marks such as Sarwan almost making a triple hundred, Edwards surviving for a draw, Holder batting forever for a draw after the new ball was taken and the all time laughable Holder/Dowrich partnership. Pretty sure they were also both in the team when Shai Hope(less) made those two hundreds

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Post by Soul Requiem Fri 11 Mar - 10:10

Gooseberry wrote:Oh the memories of all those glorious tours when England thrashed the West indies with broanderson leading the attack.

Anderson- 36 wickets @ 24.8
Broad- 26 wickets @ 31.1

Suggests to me that the pair perform quite well in the Caribbean and it's failing elsewhere that have been letting the team down.

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Post by Soul Requiem Fri 11 Mar - 10:13

VTR wrote:
Gooseberry wrote:Oh the memories of all those glorious tours when England thrashed the West indies with broanderson leading the attack.

Was going to make this point yesterday. They've featured in precisely 0 winning series in the Windies. Abject batting cost some Tests, but the bowlers also have black marks such as Sarwan almost making a triple hundred, Edwards surviving for a draw, Holder batting forever for a draw after the new ball was taken and the all time laughable Holder/Dowrich partnership. Pretty sure they were also both in the team when Shai Hope(less) made those two hundreds

Firstly Sarwan was a quality batsman who on his day was as majestic as they come and secondly over 1500 runs were scored in that match for 17 wickets. Context.

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Post by VTR Fri 11 Mar - 10:48

It still happened on the watch of Broad and Anderson. I am not necessarily rebutting anyone on here, but there seems to be an assumption that Broad and Anderson would bundle Windies out for 150 on this pitch. History with some actual examples shows they have been part of the same struggles in the past. And expanding on that, given how badly England have tended to do it makes no sense flogging them on these sort of pitches anymore

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Post by Gooseberry Fri 11 Mar - 10:52

...and whether they would or not is moot to the overiding issue that England are not producing cricketers who can do that, or top order batsmen who can outscore Kraig Braithwaite.

The talent pipleine is what needs fixing.

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Post by JDizzle Fri 11 Mar - 11:10

VTR wrote:It still happened on the watch of Broad and Anderson. I am not necessarily rebutting anyone on here, but there seems to be an assumption that Broad and Anderson would bundle Windies out for 150 on this pitch. History with some actual examples shows they have been part of the same struggles in the past. And expanding on that, given how badly England have tended to do it makes no sense flogging them on these sort of pitches anymore

I do agree to the extent that because the narrative in the lead up to the series was about Broad + Anderson the toothlessness of the bowlers has been focused on a lot. When I think the truth is nearer that yes, Woakes definitely isn’t the answer overseas and I wanted COverton to get his shot but it’s becoming quickly clear that it is unlikely he is either… but this pitch is an absolute pudding and the batters have got away with murder for not taking the bulk of the criticism for not making 500+.

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