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England post 2022 6Ns, Aus tour and beyond

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Post by hugehandoff Sun 20 Mar 2022, 5:50 pm

First topic message reminder :

A few things whirling around my head and most start with the fact that Eddie is likely to remain in charge. There are probably a lack of available alternatives and the RFU won't want to fork out more money. Therefore, he is likely to remain in charge until the RWC 2023 is done. Bearing that in mind what are the positives and negatives?

Positives
We have some decent forwards for sure and the set piece should be fine. Underhill was terrific yesterday and I think a return to Curry and Underhill playing around a big 8 would be very handy. Dombrandt should be that man.
Our defence is excellent and the team spirit is clearly there.
We have loads of quality players who can hopefully return to fitness and form and add to the mix. All countries lose players and of course we have more resources than anyone bar France, but we will no doubt look completely different if Launchbury, Hill, Curry, Cowan-Dickie, Manu, May, Watson, Cockanasiga, Farrell are all fit and firing.
We have some foundations to build on and it is not Eddie's fault that we have not had Manu, or a decent replacement, available to add some power to our midfield.
There is enough time to fix many of these issues.

Negatives
Inconsistent selection
Inconsistent tactics and coaching team (too many coaching changes). Taking over from Lancaster Eddie was very clear on what to do. Restore England's traditional strengths in the set piece, defence and back it up with good kicking. Now we are totally confused as what we are trying to do.
The whole thing about playing players not in their best positions
Everyone is bored with Eddie's comments - we need less of him

Aus Tour
What a statement he made by winning 3-0 last time post a grand slam. Ruthless in taking off Burrell after 25 minutes. And they were missing Manu then as well and ended up with Ford, Farrell and Joseph so if we assume that Manu is unavailable then there is still hope. But we need players in their correct position and we need some consistency. Considering we don't have too many options at 12 and Slade is not really working out should we revert to Farrell? Not exactly a running beast, but at least he will be fresh and might just add some toughness. I would love to see Youngs left behind and to back 2 of our younger 9s. Genge, Dombrandt, Smith, Steward etc all need exposure to a tough away series.

Autumn
Based purely on form this is now the time to select the 23 Eddie sees as our strongest RWC team. All bets are off now and if a Mako or Bill V are playing well and showing the form and hunger to return then why not consider them. We might need then in the RWC group even if they are back ups to the regular starters. So maybe give them a game to see where they are? And then hopefully we can enjoy some consistent selection allied with a revamped game plan.

Anyone else hopeful that Eddie can resurrect the team and our RWC ambitions?

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Post by propdavid_london Tue 26 Apr 2022, 5:01 pm

We could see a lot of these fringe and younger players given a run against the BaaBaas.

Ruling out Tigers/Sarries and Quins players (for now).

We could have a side like this -
Bevan Rodd,
Blamire/Thacker
Will Stuart/Sinkler
Launchbury
Ewels
Ludlam/Underhill
Tom Curry
Alfie Barberry
Raffie Quirk/Randall
Orlando Bailey
Hassel Collins
Mark Atkins
Paolo Odogwu
Jack Nowell
Furbank

Massively experimental - but would chuck it about in a baabaas game Smile


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Post by doctor_grey Tue 26 Apr 2022, 5:29 pm

propdavid_london wrote:We could see a lot of these fringe and younger players given a run against the BaaBaas.

Ruling out Tigers/Sarries and Quins players (for now).  

We could have a side like this -
Bevan Rodd,
Blamire/Thacker
Will Stuart/Sinkler  
Launchbury
Ewels
Ludlam/Underhill
Tom Curry
Alfie Barberry
Raffie Quirk/Randall
Orlando Bailey
Hassel Collins
Mark Atkins
Paolo Odogwu
Jack Nowell
Furbank

Massively experimental - but would chuck it about in a baabaas game Smile
A line-up like this would not surprise me. Makes good sense. Will Curry be fit to play? If so, I agree might be a perfect warm-up for him.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Tue 26 Apr 2022, 10:34 pm

Quirk has had an op and won't be back until late pre season so no summer tour for him. Should open the door for Mitchell.

I can't see Eddie picking Thacker. He likes a bigger hooker, the irony, as evidenced by selecting Blamire over McGuigan despite form and club selection suggesting the reverse. Perhaps Singleton will come back into the fold?

At loosehead Tom West is back in action for Wasps.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 27 Apr 2022, 6:59 am

Jack Willis to consider in that back row too. And I'd like to see Arundell capped as well given Scotland are sniffing round him (and qualifies for Wales).

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Post by propdavid_london Wed 27 Apr 2022, 10:24 am

Shame about Quirke, Absolutely for Mitchell then. I still think that Ben Spencer has a lot to offer England - but injuries seem to have plagued him in recent times. Currently playing well for Bath though.

Absolutely I think Willis deserves to tour and could still be involved in the BaaBaas game.

McGuigan does seem to be the form hooker in the Prem.
Does anyone know if LCD is back from injury?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 27 Apr 2022, 11:01 am

Think I read LCD is out for the rest of the season.

I hope Youngs gets to have a rest and spend some time with his family. Mitchell, Randall, van Poortvliet should go.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Wed 27 Apr 2022, 2:32 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Think I read LCD is out for the rest of the season.

I hope Youngs gets to have a rest and spend some time with his family. Mitchell, Randall, van Poortvliet should go.

Can't see Youngs going either via selection or personal opt out. He's got three young kids at home and will want to be able to support Tom and the wider family. He's also benefitted from a full pre season last summer so will no doubt want the same again to give himself the best chance at making the world cup.

Not sure JVP is ready yet but given Spencer seems to on the out he might get a look in. Maunder Jnr at Exeter might be in with a shot as well.

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Post by king_carlos Wed 27 Apr 2022, 3:06 pm

1.Genge, Marler, Rodd
2.George, Blamire, Singleton
3.Sinckler, Collier, Heyes
4.Itoje, Launchbury
5.Hill, Chessum, Isiekwe
6.Lawes, Willis
7.Curry, Underhill
8.Dombrandt, Barbeary

9.Randall, Mitchell, JvP
10.Smith, Ford

11.May, Cokanasiga, Arundell*
12.Farrell, Tuilagi
13.Marchant, Slade
14.Watson, Nowell, Radwan
15.Steward, Malins

That'd be my squad currently ruling out the confirmed injured but being optimistic on potential returnees.

Arundell I think is worth the punt on an apprentice place even if he isn't with the squad for the full tour. He's the sort of talent that given the position he plays could feasibly break into the senior side very young. I say bring him into the set-up and let him see the competition.

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Post by propdavid_london Wed 27 Apr 2022, 3:11 pm

Marler probably wont tour.....
He's pulled out of squads before when he's been away from family for a prolonged period of time.

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Post by Geordie Wed 27 Apr 2022, 4:30 pm

If Marler doesnt go...how has West been doing at Wasps?

I know Brocklebank has had a very good season for us...probably our most improved player...maybe having two cracking young lh's like Cade and Brantingham coming through has give him a kick up the rear.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 27 Apr 2022, 5:08 pm

Goodrick-Clarke may stand a decent chance.

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Post by Geordie Thu 28 Apr 2022, 9:24 am

Theres actually quite a few Looseheads who are worth a look and could be very good.

I rate Goodrick Clarke highly...like i rate West. Very good LH's be interesting to see how they went at the next level.


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Post by propdavid_london Thu 28 Apr 2022, 10:34 am

Is Ben Obano back from injury yet?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 28 Apr 2022, 10:54 am

No.

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Post by BigGee Thu 28 Apr 2022, 12:25 pm

king_carlos wrote:

Arundell I think is worth the punt on an apprentice place even if he isn't with the squad for the full tour. He's the sort of talent that given the position he plays could feasibly break into the senior side very young. I say bring him into the set-up and let him see the competition.


Scotland and Wales are both interested in this young man as well, as he qualifies for both. You would imagine that someone will try and tie him up this summer. I wonder where he sees his future?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 28 Apr 2022, 12:47 pm

That's why I specifically mentioned him above BigGee. You may well be tempted to say England but if someone offers you a definitive spot it's hard to turn down (see Redpath). He may be looking at Steward's and Hogg's relative form and think Scotland looks a good bet at present.

England have to get better at offering places and tieing people down (at least for the next few year). Arundell is going to be a success whoever he plays for.

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Post by BigGee Thu 28 Apr 2022, 1:02 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:That's why I specifically mentioned him above BigGee. You may well be tempted to say England but if someone offers you a definitive spot it's hard to turn down (see Redpath). He may be looking at Steward's and Hogg's relative form and think Scotland looks a good bet at present.

England have to get better at offering places and tieing people down (at least for the next few year). Arundell is going to be a success whoever he plays for.


These are very difficult decisions for all these young men and I genuinely hope he makes the right one for himself, whichever one that is.

I don't really agree with capping people to tie them in however and he will need to be wary of that trap. Do England really see a place for him in their team this side of the WC?

He certainly looks the part though and the comparisons with a younger Hogg, who is likely to be rested for the Scotland summer tour, look very apt. He is still very inexperienced though and there are still likely players in the England system who would do a better job at international level than he could presently.

His best option might be to do a Redpath and say no to everyone for the next 12 months while he develops and can make up his mind in his own time.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 28 Apr 2022, 1:12 pm

I obviously do believe in getting people to focus early as you never know what's round the corner. I think if you were to look at him now you wouldn't want him starting ahead of guys (when fit) like Watson, May, Steward, and he'd be behind the guys like Hassell-Collins, Radwan even Malins who I think is bang average. He's a special though so I can see him developing quickly and wouldn't surprise me were he in the WC squad. I don't want other teams to perhaps offer him the early cap to get him, let England do it for once. Re Redpath he probably wasn't ready when he was in the England squad, had we been smart and capped him though even a few mins for the bench when he had the run of games for Bath and looked great in 3-6 months we wouldn't have then lost him to Scotland.

There needs to be a much more pragmatic and pro active approach from us here, which is why i take the view above. You can afford to take your time and wait for when the player is ready to challenge the first team when there's no threat of losing them.

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Post by Margin_Walker Thu 28 Apr 2022, 2:19 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:I obviously do believe in getting people to focus early as you never know what's round the corner. I think if you were to look at him now you wouldn't want him starting ahead of guys (when fit) like Watson, May, Steward, and he'd be behind the guys like Hassell-Collins, Radwan even Malins who I think is bang average. He's a special though so I can see him developing quickly and wouldn't surprise me were he in the WC squad. I don't want other teams to perhaps offer him the early cap to get him, let England do it for once. Re Redpath he probably wasn't ready when he was in the England squad, had we been smart and capped him though even a few mins for the bench when he had the run of games for Bath and looked great in 3-6 months we wouldn't have then lost him to Scotland.

There needs to be a much more pragmatic and pro active approach from us here, which is why i take the view above. You can afford to take your time and wait for when the player is ready to challenge the first team when there's no threat of losing them.

I honestly think he's better than Hassell-Collins, even now. Slightly different positions, but Arundell could easily play wing. OHC is the better defender (which is important), but that's probably it.

LI have been managing him into the team, but he makes things happen every time he plays in a way that OHC doesn't.

That's not to say I think he should be playing international rugby this summer (if there wasn't a fight over him). You ideally want a little time to make sure a kid isn't a flash in the pan, or risk giving them the Matthew Tait experience. It'll be interesting though, as I can't see him not touring somewhere in the summer. It may be that England take him to Oz in an apprentice slot and don't actually cap him. Enough to demonstrate enough interest and fend off any immediate approach from Scotland.

Who knows though, he may be very attached to his Scottish roots and open to a firmer offer.

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Post by BigGee Thu 28 Apr 2022, 3:17 pm

It was interesting, i remember around the time of the 6N there was some twitter chat about his eligibility and it was his mum i think, who was straight on and making a point about his Scottish grandfather. So they were clearly very aware of his heritage and i would be surprised if the Scottish and Welsh set ups were not either.

Who knows what is going on behind the scenes.

I do like a bit of intrigue myself!

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Thu 28 Apr 2022, 8:09 pm

BigGee wrote:It was interesting, i remember around the time of the 6N there was some twitter chat about his eligibility and it was his mum i think, who was straight on and making a point about his Scottish grandfather. So they were clearly very aware of his heritage and i would be surprised if the Scottish and Welsh set ups were not either.

Who knows what is going on behind the scenes.

I do like a bit of intrigue myself!

Arundell seems quite different to Redpath though. Redpath has one or two links to Scottish rugby which made his England progression always a big doubt. Arundell as far as I know is English English (whatever that means I don't know) with Welsh/Scottish grandparent links. If he sees a potential progression with England you would hope he'd go for that.

He certainly looks like one of these special talents that comes along every few years, we should look to integrate him asap imo. I'd like us to be a bit more like Wales, in that they get these exciting youngsters tied down and then brought through steadily. I understand we have so much young talent it's hard to always do this, but he looks quite something.

Not to knock Scotland or Wales at all, but if you see yourself as English....you'd think he would like to give that a good shot, not just for the nationalism but also for the potential financial gains with club and country. He would be looking at much better contract with LI if he plumps for England.

On the reverse and something that has possibly been done to death, I wouldn't like us to be targeting a Welsh or Scottish youngster at one of their clubs.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 29 Apr 2022, 8:36 am

That's the thing though and the drum I've been beating for a few years at least. Arundell is not as yet an English youngster. He's a 19 year old bloke who gets to choose from 3 teams as to where he will play international rugby. England have been generally woeful in this for the last 10 years whether it be Redpath, Tompkins, Francis etc. There may be difference of opinion as to whether Arundell is ready to play for England as of now, but I think that number goes down a lot in the Autumn and will be practically 0 come the 6Ns. But Scotland and Wales may have already done the smart thing and turned his head and capped him by then.

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Post by king_carlos Fri 29 Apr 2022, 5:20 pm

Arundell's weaknesses seem to be positioning largely which can be worked on fairly quickly. He has some filling out to do but isn't as slight as Hodge for instance and importantly he has a kicking game. I know talking about wingers kicking is viewed as boring but there are very few standout international wingers without a kicking game for a reason. It's a difficult, though not impossible, part of a players game to develop if it doesn't come naturally. Whereas positioning can usually be improved pretty fast.

I'd have him in the squad.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 29 Apr 2022, 5:44 pm

Kicking is fine. Kicking is important. Bad Kicking and to prescription rather than need is terrible.

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Post by Margin_Walker Fri 29 Apr 2022, 7:46 pm

king_carlos wrote:Arundell's weaknesses seem to be positioning largely which can be worked on fairly quickly. He has some filling out to do but isn't as slight as Hodge for instance and importantly he has a kicking game. I know talking about wingers kicking is viewed as boring but there are very few standout international wingers without a kicking game for a reason. It's a difficult, though not impossible, part of a players game to develop if it doesn't come naturally. Whereas positioning can usually be improved pretty fast.

I'd have him in the squad.

I don't think he does have too much filling out to do. He apparently shifts the kind of weights the academy forwards do in the gym. He's pretty solid and does get through weak shoulders pretty regularly.

The one thing he'd need to work on most for me is defence. May just be perception, but I've seen him be slightly hesitant a few times and not really throwing himself into the tackle, which you can't really afford to do in the big time.

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Post by king_carlos Fri 29 Apr 2022, 10:02 pm

Margin_Walker wrote:
king_carlos wrote:Arundell's weaknesses seem to be positioning largely which can be worked on fairly quickly. He has some filling out to do but isn't as slight as Hodge for instance and importantly he has a kicking game. I know talking about wingers kicking is viewed as boring but there are very few standout international wingers without a kicking game for a reason. It's a difficult, though not impossible, part of a players game to develop if it doesn't come naturally. Whereas positioning can usually be improved pretty fast.

I'd have him in the squad.

I don't think he does have too much filling out to do. He apparently shifts the kind of weights the academy forwards do in the gym. He's pretty solid and does get through weak shoulders pretty regularly.

The one thing he'd need to work on most for me is defence. May just be perception, but I've seen him be slightly hesitant a few times and not really throwing himself into the tackle, which you can't really afford to do in the big time.

I meant he was already physical for a back three player of his style at that age. Compared to someone such as Hodge or Olowofela for instance who looked physically dominant at age grade but were so slight they could get thrown around a bit in contact coming into senior rugby. Arundell will definitely get a bit bigger naturally over the next couple of years but he's already physical enough for the step up.

Almost all back three players need to improve defence at that age. A big part of that is so many players who end up playing back three professionally being used elsewhere when younger to get their hands on the ball more. A lot of fullbacks played fly-half as kids, wingers who predominantly played centre, etc. The academies being more professional now means they specialise earlier these days but certainly still an element of that IMO.

Malins being hesitant with tackling on kick chase drove me crazy in the Six Nations. When he could compete in the air he was aggressive as you'd expect from a fullback. When looking for a hit he was very hesitant though. A few chances to put the opposition back three under a lot of pressure went begging from that.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sat 30 Apr 2022, 6:16 am

Cumbrian wrote:It's hard to judge Smith because he is brand new to international rugby and he had to play with the hand he was dealt.   I know he is in the side to provide a spark, but if you have got a backline playing to no visible game plan with nobody to straighten the line or make ground in heavy traffic or tie in defenders, you can't expect miracles.

I dunno Ford got slaughtered the 6N before with a far worse backline to work with and a pack going backwards.

Smith has credit in the bank from the AIs and he had an up and down 6N. Wasn't easy for him with the attacking strategy and reshuffled midfield every other game. That being said he was pretty awful against France so could do with making a mark Vs Australia in the summer, which I think he probably will. Australia seem a bit work in progress unlike the French and Irish so he should be able to make an impact.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 30 Apr 2022, 11:01 am

I think the backline as a whole was better in 21 myself. Farrell and the wingers make a big difference over the guys this year. Better 9 for a few this year and Steward is a great full back, lacking a bit of spark in attack as he settles in like. Smith will be the fly half for years surely with a bit of luck.

Looking back to the last tour of Australia Jones didn't tinker that much at all. Couple of questions on the wings though without May and Watson, at least I hope that Jones has questions there!

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sun 01 May 2022, 3:13 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote: I think the backline as a whole was better in 21 myself. Farrell and the wingers make a big difference over the guys this year. Better 9 for a few this year and Steward is a great full back, lacking a bit of spark in attack as he settles in like. Smith will be the fly half for years surely with a bit of luck.

Looking back to the last tour of Australia Jones didn't tinker that much at all. Couple of questions on the wings though without May and Watson, at least I hope that Jones has questions there!

Unfortunately Farrell was paired with Slade and neither wanted to take the ball up and all of the back three wanted the ball in the outside channel only leaving Ford desperately looking for a ball carrier and making the life of the defence laughably easy as there was nobody to hold them they could just drift. Smith didn't get a great backline but in Marchant and Steward he had players that would straighten, a secondary playmaker in Slade and passable wingers.

The 2021 6N backline was the worst since we combined Noon and Tindall, possibly worse in fact because at least they'd run a line for the flyhalf.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun 01 May 2022, 3:56 pm

I mean I would agree we were worse off at 9, 13 and 15 definitely. And of course worse off at 10 last year.
Overall balance though Watson Farrell and May make sure an important difference.

Given the lack of those 3 we really had a free hit to try something and it failed miserably.

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Post by Cumbrian Sun 01 May 2022, 6:25 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
Cumbrian wrote:It's hard to judge Smith because he is brand new to international rugby and he had to play with the hand he was dealt.   I know he is in the side to provide a spark, but if you have got a backline playing to no visible game plan with nobody to straighten the line or make ground in heavy traffic or tie in defenders, you can't expect miracles.

I dunno Ford got slaughtered the 6N before with a far worse backline to work with and a pack going backwards.

Smith has credit in the bank from the AIs and he had an up and down 6N. Wasn't easy for him with the attacking strategy and reshuffled midfield every other game. That being said he was pretty awful against France so could do with making a mark Vs Australia in the summer, which I think he probably will. Australia seem a bit work in progress unlike the French and Irish so he should be able to make an impact.

Not by me, I was (and still am) one of Ford's biggest fans.  I think people get too ready to bin players for the next big wave.  I guess when there are 13 teams and dozens of players to pick from there will always be pressure (especially after disappointing campaigns).

Watch while I become a massive hypocrite.  Having seen Arundell play twice this week (and tracked him throughout the season) Eddie really has to get him on the plane to Oz, he just has something about him.  If I had to guess I reckon he will opt for us.  With the changes coming to English representation in the Premiership his EQP status becomes a more important factor in a young career.  The three year rule might help him too. He could have a crack at representing us and if it doesn't work out he can see out his three years and choose to represent Scotland or Wales and he will still be under 25.  Makes sense to me, but I guess it depends upon how he sees himself.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun 01 May 2022, 7:19 pm

Ford's a really good player. We're just lucky in England we have and have a few very good fly halfs.

And yes Arundell looks to the manor born and is affecting game positively already. Jones was there today I'd be amazed if he hadn't had a word with him and said he's in the plans for the world cup. If we don't pick him Scotland and Wales will be wanting to.

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Post by Poorfour Sun 01 May 2022, 8:40 pm

It’s “to the manner born”, at least if you go by Shakespeare’s usage of it in Hamlet (Act 1, Scene 4). “I am native here / And to the manner born” I.e. I’ve been used to the way we do things around here all my life.

To The Manor Born was an 80s sitcom starring Penelope Keith as an impoverished aristocrat who is forced to sell the manor house she sees as her birthright and schemes to get it back.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 02 May 2022, 6:23 am

Cheers Poorfour. Can you tell I'm not a great reader but I've watched shed loads of bad sitcoms in my life? I'm just pleased it's not half a quote that means the opposite of what I was going for.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Mon 02 May 2022, 8:40 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:I mean I would agree we were worse off at 9, 13 and 15 definitely. And of course worse off at 10 last year.
Overall balance though Watson Farrell and May make sure an important difference.

Given the lack of those 3 we really had a free hit to try something and it failed miserably.

The overall balance of the backline was more my point. There's little point have the best individuals there if they don't compliment each other. May, Watson and Daly are three good players but they generally want to use their pace in the wider channels so if you have no penetration in the centres they are pretty much redundant as the defence can either cut off at source or flood the outside cutting off the space.

Arundell England need to select this summer or somebody else will. Cracking contribution off the bench yesterday. Not even close to the finished article but when you can play like that ball in hand, well it can't be taught. Use him as impact off the bench in Aus, maybe on the wing to ease him in.

Scrum half for the summer is going to be interesting. Mitchell had an up and down game for Saints. Sensational initially then disappeared and seemed to be blowing out his backside before briefly turning it on again before being subbed. Worryingly Youngs comfortably outplayed Randall. Youngs creating and scoring tries along with controling things whilst Randall made three basic errors that led to Tigers tries. We need the younger scrum halfs to start showing up so the Youngs scrum half can have the summer off.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 02 May 2022, 8:51 am

Youngs definitely needs the summer off. And the autumn. And 2023.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Mon 02 May 2022, 2:08 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Youngs definitely needs the summer off. And the autumn. And 2023.

Definitely the summer. The Autumn depends on who does what. If Randall is as error strewn as he was on Saturday we might need Youngs in the squad. You'd hope given the young 9s we have a couple would put their hands up this summer. Quirke's injury is a blow to that mind.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 02 May 2022, 3:28 pm

Randall at his worst is still better than Youngs. Ssoooooooo slllooooooooow passing.

I do expect Jones to pick him no matter what though. He likes him. And as discussed it can't be about performance alone or we would have had care there for the last few years. You'd think he must be in the leadership group and offering stuff which is valuable off the field.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Mon 02 May 2022, 4:57 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Randall at his worst is still better than Youngs. Ssoooooooo slllooooooooow passing.

I do expect Jones to pick him no matter what though. He likes him. And as discussed it can't be about performance alone or we would have had care there for the last few years. You'd think he must be in the leadership group and offering stuff which is valuable off the field.

Youngs looked lively on Saturday, created one and scored one he created as well. I wonder if his running game has been an area of focus as he seems to be creating more ball in hand again with the ground firming up. That try Vs Clermont from the Tigers 22 was pretty special.

But yes some of the younger talent desperately needs to come through and Randall at the weekend wasn't a match for Youngs, albeit a one off game. I don't think Eddie was in the crowd luckily for Randall.

Youngs is part of the leadership group, I think Randall talked in the 6N about Benny volunteering to stay behind and help Randall work on his kicking. He's probably used to that what with Tigers having him and Wigglesworth and then the other three scrum halfs being 21 or under.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 02 May 2022, 5:34 pm

I'd love Youngs to be used more in a coaching capacity.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 03 May 2022, 8:39 am

Pearson getting some headlines too from the weekend. Thought Willis was great at 7 too. Ben Curry was very good from the account I've read. And Underhill was one of the few bright spots from Bath's horror show. At least 6/7 continues to be strong.

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Post by king_carlos Tue 03 May 2022, 12:36 pm

Jack Willis will be locked on for the summer tour I'd imagine.

Ben Earl has had a very good season with Sarries too. His carry and tackle stats are always impressive. I was surprised when England moved on from him. His pace is something different.

It's a shame Zach Mercer is unavailable. His game seems to have kicked on again in France.

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Post by king_carlos Tue 03 May 2022, 12:36 pm

Jack Willis will be locked on for the summer tour I'd imagine.

Ben Earl has had a very good season with Sarries too. His carry and tackle stats are always impressive. I was surprised when England moved on from him. His pace is something different.

It's a shame Zach Mercer is unavailable. His game seems to have kicked on again in France.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 03 May 2022, 1:26 pm

As ever too many players. Throw Barbeary in there too for me, he has to tour Australia.

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Post by king_carlos Tue 03 May 2022, 2:05 pm

6.Lawes, Willis
7.Curry, Underhill
8.Dombrandt, Barbeary

Those are the guys I'd have nailed on for the summer tour in the back row. I'd probably add Billy as another 8 option and Ludlam as another flanker. Summer tours usually seem to use a lot of players when you look at them from training squads being named to the 3rd test. Of those 8 players I've named there I wouldn't be surprised if at least 2 get ruled out by injury between now and then.

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Post by Geordie Tue 03 May 2022, 2:27 pm

king_carlos wrote:Jack Willis will be locked on for the summer tour I'd imagine.

Ben Earl has had a very good season with Sarries too. His carry and tackle stats are always impressive. I was surprised when England moved on from him. His pace is something different.

It's a shame Zach Mercer is unavailable. His game seems to have kicked on again in France.

Is it not a case of SImmonds OR Earl...(and i prefer Earl)

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 03 May 2022, 2:39 pm

I don't think Earl is going to be in Jones' plans for the summer.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Tue 03 May 2022, 6:47 pm

king_carlos wrote:6.Lawes, Willis
7.Curry, Underhill
8.Dombrandt, Barbeary

Those are the guys I'd have nailed on for the summer tour in the back row. I'd probably add Billy as another 8 option and Ludlam as another flanker. Summer tours usually seem to use a lot of players when you look at them from training squads being named to the 3rd test. Of those 8 players I've named there I wouldn't be surprised if at least 2 get ruled out by injury between now and then.

I'm not 100% sold on Willis despite his hype. He's realistically going up against Curry and Underhill with 6 seemingly Lawes/tall Leicester boys and he's not as good as those two imo.

I could maybe see him being 1st or 2nd standby challenging with Ludlow.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Tue 03 May 2022, 8:18 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
king_carlos wrote:6.Lawes, Willis
7.Curry, Underhill
8.Dombrandt, Barbeary

Those are the guys I'd have nailed on for the summer tour in the back row. I'd probably add Billy as another 8 option and Ludlam as another flanker. Summer tours usually seem to use a lot of players when you look at them from training squads being named to the 3rd test. Of those 8 players I've named there I wouldn't be surprised if at least 2 get ruled out by injury between now and then.

I'm not 100% sold on Willis despite his hype. He's realistically going up against Curry and Underhill with 6 seemingly Lawes/tall Leicester boys and he's not as good as those two imo.

I could maybe see him being 1st or 2nd standby challenging with Ludlow.

Rumours George Martin is out until next season. Ollie Chessum might go as Lawes understudy as a lock/6 though. On the hard ground down in Australia his mobility might make him a good option at lock.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 04 May 2022, 7:52 am

Updates on injuries in rugby are rubbish at the best of times. It's more like wrestling where there are surprise returns than any other sport.

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