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England post 2022 6Ns, Aus tour and beyond

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Post by hugehandoff Sun 20 Mar 2022, 5:50 pm

First topic message reminder :

A few things whirling around my head and most start with the fact that Eddie is likely to remain in charge. There are probably a lack of available alternatives and the RFU won't want to fork out more money. Therefore, he is likely to remain in charge until the RWC 2023 is done. Bearing that in mind what are the positives and negatives?

Positives
We have some decent forwards for sure and the set piece should be fine. Underhill was terrific yesterday and I think a return to Curry and Underhill playing around a big 8 would be very handy. Dombrandt should be that man.
Our defence is excellent and the team spirit is clearly there.
We have loads of quality players who can hopefully return to fitness and form and add to the mix. All countries lose players and of course we have more resources than anyone bar France, but we will no doubt look completely different if Launchbury, Hill, Curry, Cowan-Dickie, Manu, May, Watson, Cockanasiga, Farrell are all fit and firing.
We have some foundations to build on and it is not Eddie's fault that we have not had Manu, or a decent replacement, available to add some power to our midfield.
There is enough time to fix many of these issues.

Negatives
Inconsistent selection
Inconsistent tactics and coaching team (too many coaching changes). Taking over from Lancaster Eddie was very clear on what to do. Restore England's traditional strengths in the set piece, defence and back it up with good kicking. Now we are totally confused as what we are trying to do.
The whole thing about playing players not in their best positions
Everyone is bored with Eddie's comments - we need less of him

Aus Tour
What a statement he made by winning 3-0 last time post a grand slam. Ruthless in taking off Burrell after 25 minutes. And they were missing Manu then as well and ended up with Ford, Farrell and Joseph so if we assume that Manu is unavailable then there is still hope. But we need players in their correct position and we need some consistency. Considering we don't have too many options at 12 and Slade is not really working out should we revert to Farrell? Not exactly a running beast, but at least he will be fresh and might just add some toughness. I would love to see Youngs left behind and to back 2 of our younger 9s. Genge, Dombrandt, Smith, Steward etc all need exposure to a tough away series.

Autumn
Based purely on form this is now the time to select the 23 Eddie sees as our strongest RWC team. All bets are off now and if a Mako or Bill V are playing well and showing the form and hunger to return then why not consider them. We might need then in the RWC group even if they are back ups to the regular starters. So maybe give them a game to see where they are? And then hopefully we can enjoy some consistent selection allied with a revamped game plan.

Anyone else hopeful that Eddie can resurrect the team and our RWC ambitions?

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Post by king_carlos Thu 02 Jun 2022, 2:17 pm

The Manu situation has been the same for a while. They need to build an attack that isn't reliant on him being available then treat it as a bonus if he is. If Manu's fit for a RWC KO game or Six Nations decider he realistically plays as he offers things in contact that no other backs we have are close to.

They do seem to be trying to move to a completely different attacking system that isn't as reliant on individuals making yards against set defences to produce quick ball. We just don't have the players to make yards after contact that we did when Billy, Mako and Manu were close to their peaks at the same time. Those three all had flaws but their ability, when at their best, to turn slow ball into quick ball by consistently getting over the gain line was invaluable. That quick ball needs to come from the systems more than individuals now.

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Post by majesticimperialman Thu 02 Jun 2022, 8:20 pm

I really do think that England should stop hoping  and relying on the fact that Manu will be fit for selection.

He is a good layer wen he is fit, but he spends more time injured just lately.

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Post by king_carlos Thu 02 Jun 2022, 8:37 pm

I do think there's a difference between picking Manu when fit and relying on him completely to be fair.

As said above the old attacking structure that relied on individuals getting over the gain line on early phases against set defences was massively reliant on players such as Manu, Billy and Mako. The less rigid structure they seem to be trying to move towards shouldn't, in theory, be as reliant on that. It looked terrible at times in the Six Nations but in my opinion pretty much any attacking structure would have done given we were missing both first choice wings, Farrell at 12 who is pivotal and Smith playing his first Six Nations. I doubt any attacking plan would have clicked consistently in the circumstances.

Build a plan that works without Manu and treat it as a bonus if he's available. One good thing with Manu recently in my opinion is that he's tended to return from injury in good form almost immediately whereas in the past he sometimes seemed to need a few games to get back to speed. It's something Lawes seems to be able to do as well now. Both come out of a layoff and look near their best pretty much straight away. Interestingly both players are a fair bit lighter than they were at one stage so maybe it's easier to be close to full fitness from a conditioning perspective without needing lots of minutes.

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Post by Geordie Fri 03 Jun 2022, 8:56 am

Jeez im so bored with the Manu thing now.

Just forget about him and focus on other players.

12 Farrell
13 Marchant

Then take one or two of the pretenders...Ojomoh,  Lawrence,  Kelly etc etc...

Wasps Ollie Hartley will be an interesting one to watch next season....maybe one for the new regime pist WC..

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 03 Jun 2022, 11:06 am

Think Kelly and Ojomoh are both injured. Lawrence has also had less than a game or rugby since he came back froma long injury.

Ojomoh is back, named as a starter today.


Last edited by No 7&1/2 on Fri 03 Jun 2022, 1:36 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Yoda Fri 03 Jun 2022, 11:38 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:Jeez im so bored with the Manu thing now.

Just forget about him and focus on other players.

12 Farrell
13 Marchant


Then take one or two of the pretenders...Ojomoh,  Lawrence,  Kelly etc etc...

Wasps Ollie Hartley will be an interesting one to watch next season....maybe one for the new regime pist WC..


Definitely merchant, quality attacker and defender. Farrell will allow Marcus a bit more freedom in this new chaotic attack formation that Eddie trialled in six Nations.

As a wasps fan heard a bit about Ollie Hartley and we will soon see if he can mix it with the big boys. Personally we should not rush him and let him develop the basics than add dimensions to his game. It is interesting that apparently barbeary was a centre through his youth. Would solve a ball carrier in midfield.

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Post by Geordie Fri 03 Jun 2022, 12:05 pm

Barbeary could be a Very interesting 12...but then i always thought that of Sam Simmonds

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Post by doctor_grey Fri 03 Jun 2022, 12:19 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Barbeary could be a Very interesting 12...but then i always thought that of Sam Simmonds
You sound a bit like Eddie Jones....

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Post by Poorfour Fri 03 Jun 2022, 12:20 pm

Actually, if Eddie is serious about building a squad with players who are comfortable playing without structure or roles, then the speculation about playing back rowers as centres makes a bit more sense. But by the same token, there’s no need for them to actually wear the number - just be ready to pop up when play demands it.

But of the back rowers who might be pressed into action in the centres, I’d have thought Dombrandt’s pace and handling make him the natural choice.
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Post by king_carlos Fri 03 Jun 2022, 12:26 pm

Would losing the weight he'd need to in order to play centre allow Barbeary the same impact in contact though?

Earl seemed the natural choice as a back row who could cover centre in an emergency if they stuck with the 6-2 bench split. Earl is absolutely rapid and has good hands. As well as huge tackle counts and good over the ball. It still really surprises me that England moved on from him.

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Post by Geordie Fri 03 Jun 2022, 5:11 pm

doctor_grey wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Barbeary could be a Very interesting 12...but then i always thought that of Sam Simmonds
You sound a bit like Eddie Jones....

Knows his stuff that fella Wink

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Post by doctor_grey Fri 03 Jun 2022, 6:41 pm

Oh noooooo:
Austin Healey wrote:England need a long-term Plan B for Manu Tuilagi and Sam Simmonds may be the answer
The question to the group is whether he is a stealth member and reads our comments?  (ghost).  
This is verrry suspicious, methinks....

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2022/06/02/england-need-long-term-plan-b-manu-tuilagi-sam-simmonds-may/

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 03 Jun 2022, 6:45 pm

If it came out Healey was grey ghost I'd accept it.

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Post by Geordie Fri 03 Jun 2022, 7:00 pm

Spooky!! But we said it here first so he can forget about claiming that idea!!!

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Post by majesticimperialman Fri 03 Jun 2022, 8:17 pm

Some one who plays like Manu?

I know bring back Brad Barrit. Doh Run

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Post by formerly known as Sam Fri 03 Jun 2022, 8:24 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:If it came out Healey was grey ghost I'd accept it.

Austin likes his sensationalism but he also knows his fine detail stuff as well.

Eddie is trying to create an attack that isn't reliant on specific big carriers being available. It makes sense and we have some good centres with potential but can't rely on another unit coming through in the midfield.

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Post by Geordie Fri 03 Jun 2022, 9:20 pm

Sam, I do sympathise with Jones...every side needs a big hard carrying back. The 2 big units we had Manu and Cokasaniga have both been unavailable for the majority of his tenure...and we litterally have no others...

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Post by king_carlos Sat 04 Jun 2022, 12:47 am

Jonny May back on the bench for Gloucester. Watson just back for Bath. LCD and Hill potentially back for the tour.

It will be interesting to see what England do with the returning players. Guys such as Watson, May and Hill I could see being involved straight away as they've had long layoffs and missed the Six Nations. Someone such as LCD would be more of a debate.

There's a potentially strong squad available if those returnees are fully fit.

1.Genge, Marler, Mako
2.LCD, George, Blamire
3.Sinckler, Stuart, Heyes
4.Itoje, Launchbury
5.Hill, Chessum
6.Lawes, Willis
7.Curry, Underhill
8.Dombrandt, Barbeary

9.Randall, Mitchell, JvP
10.Smith

11.May, Nowell
12.Farrell, Atkinson/Kelly/Lawrence/A sentient homo sapien probably mentioned by Rugby Pass
13.Marchant, Daly
14.Watson, Arundell
15.Steward, Malins

Looking at that Quirke is the big absentee. He's further along in his development than JvP, more talented than Randall or Mitchell. I think this tour could've been a great opportunity for him.

Marler might opt out of course but I'd actually be excited to see Mako as a bench option after his form this season. I've always been a Mako fan but he's impressed me whenever I've seen him and has looked back at full fitness. In the 2021 Six Nations he was glaringly short of fitness. Watching him struggle to get back in the defensive line and keep his line speed up was painful when it's usually a huge strength of his.

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Post by Geordie Sat 04 Jun 2022, 1:38 am

KC I'm sure Ojomoh is,playing for Bath this weekend aswell

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sat 04 Jun 2022, 7:38 am

Sinckler is again absent for Bristol. I doubt he'll be touring. I'd expect Stuart, Heyes and then one of Alo, Davison or Collier.

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Post by Geordie Sat 04 Jun 2022, 8:11 am

Collier would be my choice....get a good scrummager in there....

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Post by Yoda Sat 04 Jun 2022, 9:56 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:Sinckler is again absent for Bristol. I doubt he'll be touring. I'd expect Stuart, Heyes and then one of Alo, Davison or Collier.

Alo is not a good enough scrummager imo. Gets turned over by a decent loosely, especially the shorter ones. Do Australia have any decent looseheads?

On the barbeary centre thing, I'm not sure he's any slower than Farrell or Brad barritt in his prime nor esterheizen (sorry spelling not my forte). Personally we need a bit of craft in midfield with players who can create space not crash through in a predicable way. Modern day defences will easily deal with a crash all 12. However a backrow who plays like a centre flooding a midfield channel and running hard lines into the line will give more options.

I guess we will see soon enough how this new attack pans out.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 04 Jun 2022, 10:36 am

Yoda wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:Sinckler is again absent for Bristol. I doubt he'll be touring. I'd expect Stuart, Heyes and then one of Alo, Davison or Collier.

Alo is not a good enough scrummager imo. Gets turned over by a decent loosely, especially the shorter ones. Do Australia have any decent looseheads?

On the barbeary centre thing, I'm not sure he's any slower than Farrell or Brad barritt in his prime nor esterheizen (sorry spelling not my forte). Personally we need a bit of craft in midfield with players who can create space not crash through in a predicable way.  Modern day defences will easily deal with a crash all 12. However a backrow who plays like a centre flooding a midfield channel and running hard lines into the line will give more options.

I guess we will see soon enough how this new attack pans out.
Alo has been on fire scrum wise this year.probabky the form tight head though I really like Collier.

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Post by Yoda Sat 04 Jun 2022, 11:23 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Yoda wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:Sinckler is again absent for Bristol. I doubt he'll be touring. I'd expect Stuart, Heyes and then one of Alo, Davison or Collier.

Alo is not a good enough scrummager imo. Gets turned over by a decent loosely, especially the shorter ones. Do Australia have any decent looseheads?

On the barbeary centre thing, I'm not sure he's any slower than Farrell or Brad barritt in his prime nor esterheizen (sorry spelling not my forte). Personally we need a bit of craft in midfield with players who can create space not crash through in a predicable way.  Modern day defences will easily deal with a crash all 12. However a backrow who plays like a centre flooding a midfield channel and running hard lines into the line will give more options.

I guess we will see soon enough how this new attack pans out.
Alo has been on fire scrum wise this year.probabky the form tight head though I really like Collier.

He is good don't get me wrong but got shown up by bevan Rodd who is a technically good loose head. I think alo has been great for waps and arguably the most improved player this season but maybe a season away from being international standard. Happy to be wrong and would be made up for him if he got the call. I also like collier as he has proven himself over a few seasons.

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Post by Poorfour Sat 04 Jun 2022, 11:53 am

Collier’s being picked ahead of (first reserve for the Bomb Squad) Wilco Louw on form at the moment, and he’s been the best scrummaging tight head in the Prem this season.

However, I think Eddie wants more from his props around the park and I don’t think his two tries will be enough to turn the Beaver’s head.
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Post by formerly known as Sam Sat 04 Jun 2022, 1:29 pm

Poorfour wrote:Collier’s being picked ahead of (first reserve for the Bomb Squad) Wilco Louw on form at the moment, and he’s been the best scrummaging tight head in the Prem this season.

However, I think Eddie wants more from his props around the park and I don’t think his two tries will be enough to turn the Beaver’s head.

The only tighthead not in the 6N squad who brings the work rate and scrummaging skills suggested is Cole, he's been brilliant this season but he's to old to be reconsidered now. Shame, I'd back him to give the Aussie props a going over.

Collier for me would be the safe option, he's rock solid and whilst no particularly dynamic still gets through enough work to hold down a place in arguably the Premiership's most the high tempo team (it's Quins or Saints).

Alo, he's a big lump and uses that to make up for decent but not great technique. He's more noticeable in the loose, particularly as a ball carrier but I doubt he'd have enough in the tank for more than an impact sub role which is all that would come his way as third choice.

Davison is a favourite of Eddie's previously. Solid all rounder that can cover both sides. Hasn't let England down on the couple it occasions he was required.

As long as Heyes and Stuart are good to go it's unlikely the third choice will get much game time.

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Post by king_carlos Sat 04 Jun 2022, 9:55 pm

Yoda wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Yoda wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:Sinckler is again absent for Bristol. I doubt he'll be touring. I'd expect Stuart, Heyes and then one of Alo, Davison or Collier.

Alo is not a good enough scrummager imo. Gets turned over by a decent loosely, especially the shorter ones. Do Australia have any decent looseheads?

On the barbeary centre thing, I'm not sure he's any slower than Farrell or Brad barritt in his prime nor esterheizen (sorry spelling not my forte). Personally we need a bit of craft in midfield with players who can create space not crash through in a predicable way.  Modern day defences will easily deal with a crash all 12. However a backrow who plays like a centre flooding a midfield channel and running hard lines into the line will give more options.

I guess we will see soon enough how this new attack pans out.
Alo has been on fire scrum wise this year.probabky the form tight head though I really like Collier.

He is good don't get me wrong but got shown up by bevan Rodd who is a technically good loose head. I think alo has been great for waps and arguably the most improved player this season but maybe a season away from being international standard. Happy to be wrong and would be made up for him if he got the call. I also like collier as he has proven himself over a few seasons.

Is Rodd a scrummaging LH? I rate Rodd and frequently have championed him as I think his breakdown work is something none of our other props offer. I honestly wouldn't think of Rodd as any better than Mako as a scrummager though.

Genge and Marler are England's best scrummaging LHs. After that I think Rodd, Mako and Obano can all be vulnerable against the best scrummagers. Goodrick-Clarke I'd probably rate as a better scrummager than Rodd for instance.

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Post by Yoda Sun 05 Jun 2022, 4:58 pm

king_carlos wrote:
Yoda wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Yoda wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:Sinckler is again absent for Bristol. I doubt he'll be touring. I'd expect Stuart, Heyes and then one of Alo, Davison or Collier.

Alo is not a good enough scrummager imo. Gets turned over by a decent loosely, especially the shorter ones. Do Australia have any decent looseheads?

On the barbeary centre thing, I'm not sure he's any slower than Farrell or Brad barritt in his prime nor esterheizen (sorry spelling not my forte). Personally we need a bit of craft in midfield with players who can create space not crash through in a predicable way.  Modern day defences will easily deal with a crash all 12. However a backrow who plays like a centre flooding a midfield channel and running hard lines into the line will give more options.

I guess we will see soon enough how this new attack pans out.
Alo has been on fire scrum wise this year.probabky the form tight head though I really like Collier.

He is good don't get me wrong but got shown up by bevan Rodd who is a technically good loose head. I think alo has been great for waps and arguably the most improved player this season but maybe a season away from being international standard. Happy to be wrong and would be made up for him if he got the call. I also like collier as he has proven himself over a few seasons.

Is Rodd a scrummaging LH? I rate Rodd and frequently have championed him as I think his breakdown work is something none of our other props offer. I honestly wouldn't think of Rodd as any better than Mako as a scrummager though.

Genge and Marler are England's best scrummaging LHs. After that I think Rodd, Mako and Obano can all be vulnerable against the best scrummagers. Goodrick-Clarke I'd probably rate as a better scrummager than Rodd for instance.

Rodd has a better body position than mako and wasn't shamed against the sa front row in the autumn. Not as good as marler but not many are in the scrum. I just think alo will need to work on his scrummaging and fitness for the step up to international standard. I was merely using wasps recent game with sale to highlight Alo's struggles with shorter loosies that get under him. Mind you I'm a back so I'm basing this on some small knowledge of physics and no experience of scrummaging what so ever.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 06 Jun 2022, 10:09 am

Squad for the Barbarians from the RFU site:

Biyi Alo (Wasps, uncapped)
Alfie Barbeary (Wasps, uncapped)
Jamie Blamire (Newcastle Falcons, 6 caps)
Callum Chick (Newcastle Falcons, 2 caps)
Freddie Clarke (Gloucester Rugby, uncapped)
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 40 caps)
Trevor Davison (Newcastle Falcons, 2 caps)
Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 30 caps)
Will Goodrick-Clarke (London Irish, uncapped)
Jonny Hill (Exeter Chiefs, 12 caps)
Ted Hill (Worcester Warriors, 2 caps)
Sam Jeffries (Bristol Bears, uncapped)
George McGuigan (Newcastle Falcons, uncapped)
Tom Pearson (London Irish, uncapped)
Bevan Rodd (Sale Sharks, 2 caps)
Patrick Schickerling (Exeter Chiefs, uncapped)
Jack Singleton (Gloucester Rugby, 3 caps)
Will Stuart (Bath Rugby, 20 caps)
Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby, 28 caps)
Jack Willis (Wasps, 3 caps)

Henry Arundell (London Irish, uncapped)
Charlie Atkinson (Wasps, uncapped)
Mark Atkinson (Gloucester Rugby, 1 cap)
Orlando Bailey (Bath Rugby, uncapped)
Joe Cokanasiga (Bath Rugby, 11 caps)
Ollie Hassell-Collins (London Irish, uncapped)
Will Joseph (London Irish, uncapped)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 69 caps)
Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs, 39 caps)
Paolo Odogwu (Wasps, uncapped)
Max Ojomoh (Bath Rugby, uncapped)
Tom Parton (London Irish, uncapped)
Adam Radwan (Newcastle Falcons, 2 caps)
Harry Randall (Bristol Bears, 6 caps)
Dan Robson (Wasps, 14 caps)

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Post by Geordie Mon 06 Jun 2022, 10:16 am

Schickerling?? Dear lord.

No other major surprises...though i did think Sean Robinson might have made it.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 06 Jun 2022, 10:23 am

I'd consider no Launchbury a surprise. No Ludlow. Was half thinking Obano may bounce straight back in.

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Post by Geordie Mon 06 Jun 2022, 10:28 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'd consider no Launchbury a surprise. No Ludlow. Was half thinking Obano may bounce straight back in.

Obano is a good, but theres some very good looseheads about at the moment..

Ludlow, good club player. Has huge competition.

Launchbury possibly, wonder why hes not there.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Mon 06 Jun 2022, 10:32 am

It's only a squad for the Barbarians, I wouldn't get too excited by it.

Can't recall seeing much of Schickerling, is he any good? A tighthead I presume?

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Post by king_carlos Mon 06 Jun 2022, 10:40 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:Schickerling?? Dear lord.

That was my instinctive reaction but when I thought about the absentees it's understandably fairly thin.

Not much point picking Sinckler for a Baabaas game. Heyes and Cole with Tigers. Collier and Kerrod with Quins. Hill and Painter with Saints.

The two names I thought of ahead of Shickerling were then interestingly also Chiefs THs. Williams and Street. Both featured at the weekend but have also struggled with injury throughout the season and not been at their best.

3 THs in Stuart, Alo and Shickerling. 2 LHs in Rodd and Goodrick-Clarke. Then Davison who can play both sides but given the weighting of THs to LHs is presumably covering LH.

1.Rodd 2.Blamire 3.Stuart
16.McGuigan 17.Goodrick-Clarke 18.Davison

That would be my pick from those available.

EDIT to this: Fraser Balmain should certainly be getting a shot ahead of Shickerling, Williams or Street on this seasons form for me. Bit tough that.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Mon 06 Jun 2022, 11:17 am

No Fin Smith is a concern, Scotland might be successful in stealing him away. I'd have definitely had him in the squad, his potential is right up there with the best and I think he could be a contender to Marcus Smith in a couple of years time.

Agree on Balmain. He's definitely unlucky, not sure what Sam Jeffries has done that's worthy of a call up either.

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Post by Geordie Mon 06 Jun 2022, 11:25 am

Yeah Smith to Scotland might be right.

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Post by Geordie Mon 06 Jun 2022, 11:27 am

king_carlos wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Schickerling?? Dear lord.

That was my instinctive reaction but when I thought about the absentees it's understandably fairly thin.

Not much point picking Sinckler for a Baabaas game. Heyes and Cole with Tigers. Collier and Kerrod with Quins. Hill and Painter with Saints.

The two names I thought of ahead of Shickerling were then interestingly also Chiefs THs. Williams and Street. Both featured at the weekend but have also struggled with injury throughout the season and not been at their best.

3 THs in Stuart, Alo and Shickerling. 2 LHs in Rodd and Goodrick-Clarke. Then Davison who can play both sides but given the weighting of THs to LHs is presumably covering LH.

1.Rodd 2.Blamire 3.Stuart
16.McGuigan 17.Goodrick-Clarke 18.Davison

That would be my pick from those available.

EDIT to this: Fraser Balmain should certainly be getting a shot ahead of Shickerling, Williams or Street on this seasons form for me. Bit tough that.

Switch them round...George to start. Jamie to add explosion from the bench.

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Post by Mr Bounce Mon 06 Jun 2022, 12:44 pm

Don't be surprised to see Singleton. He's been in good form and Jones had him in the 2019 RWC squad so he is a known quantity.

Why has Ewels been picked again?

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Post by king_carlos Mon 06 Jun 2022, 1:08 pm

Pleased for Freddie Clarke. An unsung part of Gloucester's improvements. Singleton and Alemanno were obviously good signings in areas they needed them. Elrington and Gotovtsev were shrewd signings that allow them to rotate Rapava-Ruskin and Balmain. Clarke has been a late bloomer that's quietly developed into a very good second row though. Happy he's got the recognition.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 06 Jun 2022, 1:46 pm

Apparently SA are going to be looking for some A games in the Autumn. What are the rules now on second teams tying people; can it still be the B team? May be useful to tie some players to us.

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Post by Yoda Mon 06 Jun 2022, 6:04 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Apparently SA are going to be looking for some A games in the Autumn. What are the rules now on second teams tying people; can it still be the B team? May be useful to tie some players to us.

I could be wrong but I still think our capture team is the Saxons? We should have made the u20s our second string.

On launchbury, I thought I read he has asked for time to recover so made himself unavailable. It's a shame Joel kupoku is in France seems a monster now.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Mon 06 Jun 2022, 6:29 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
king_carlos wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Schickerling?? Dear lord.

That was my instinctive reaction but when I thought about the absentees it's understandably fairly thin.

Not much point picking Sinckler for a Baabaas game. Heyes and Cole with Tigers. Collier and Kerrod with Quins. Hill and Painter with Saints.

The two names I thought of ahead of Shickerling were then interestingly also Chiefs THs. Williams and Street. Both featured at the weekend but have also struggled with injury throughout the season and not been at their best.

3 THs in Stuart, Alo and Shickerling. 2 LHs in Rodd and Goodrick-Clarke. Then Davison who can play both sides but given the weighting of THs to LHs is presumably covering LH.

1.Rodd 2.Blamire 3.Stuart
16.McGuigan 17.Goodrick-Clarke 18.Davison

That would be my pick from those available.

EDIT to this: Fraser Balmain should certainly be getting a shot ahead of Shickerling, Williams or Street on this seasons form for me. Bit tough that.

Switch them round...George to start. Jamie to add explosion from the bench.

I'm surprised McGuigan is still involved tbh. Even as a Falcons fan, I don't have him anywhere near Int class....he's too small.

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Post by king_carlos Mon 06 Jun 2022, 8:08 pm

Players like Shota Horie have shown you can succeed, excel even, as an international hooker despite being smaller than the modern trend. It does require your team building their scrummaging tactics around it though. Realistically England aren't going to do that if LCD and George are unavailable so better to have a backup/project such as Blamire with that physicality.

Similar to my view with Dolly being called up. Good player and his lineout throwing to the tail is genuinely fantastic. There aren't many hookers who hit those high, lobbed throws right to the tail as consistently as Dolly can. Dolly also has that great ability to stay 'in the armchair' at the back of the maul for longer than some hookers seem to which allows Tigers to maul for longer without risk. Great skills to have. He's just not big enough to fit how England play though and I don't see them fundamentally changing the tactics over a 3rd choice hooker!

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Post by Geordie Mon 06 Jun 2022, 8:22 pm

McGuigan is 6ft and 17st 5lbs...
LCD is 6ft and 17st 7lbs
Jamie George is 5ft 10 and 17st
Jamie Blamire is 6'1 and 18st.

Not alot of difference really in actual physical size.

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Post by king_carlos Mon 06 Jun 2022, 8:59 pm

If you take the stats at face value, yeah. If you look at them on the pitch I think it's fairly plain to see Blamire is more than 7 pounds heavier than McGuigan!

At one point Jonny Hill's listed weights ranged from 21 stone to 17 stone 6lbs.

Given that listed height often doesn't even seem that reliable for rugby players (Jamie George is listed anywhere from 5'10" to 6') and that wont change except for very young players I think weight stats can be fairly easily ignored when dealing with guys so big that rugby players have been reported to lose up to half a stone over the course of game in hot conditions.

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Post by Geordie Mon 06 Jun 2022, 10:44 pm

Well maybe stats vary but I'm not sure McGuigan is way smaller that he struggle at international level.

He's excelled on a struggling team...he's physical and mobile bit also has an intelligence about him.

If Blamire can learn and develop some of that intelligence hell be some player...


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Post by Sgt_Pooly Tue 07 Jun 2022, 5:05 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:McGuigan is 6ft and 17st 5lbs...
LCD is 6ft and 17st 7lbs
Jamie George is 5ft 10 and 17st
Jamie Blamire is 6'1 and 18st.

Not alot of difference really in actual physical size.

The stats on McGuigan are way off GF, when he was at Tigers he was listed at 5ft 9 and 15st. He's certainly on the smaller side for a hooker, watch this clip of the weekend (3min 35 onwards) when he pretty much gets out muscled by Alex Mitchell:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIPtUDAfgIw

Mitchell is listed as 5ft 10" and looks taller than McGuigan.....getting physically dominated by a scrum half....not a good look for a front row forward.

Blamire is a bit of wrecking ball who stood up physically to a SA last AI. If he can fine tune his darts a bit, he'll be right up there (the same clip above from 4'10 to 4'40 - some great stuff from Blamire). I personally wouldn't have McGuigan or Dolly anywhere near an England squad.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 07 Jun 2022, 6:36 am

Sinckler is out for the summer then. Does give us a chance to look at those tight head options.

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Post by Geordie Tue 07 Jun 2022, 8:55 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:McGuigan is 6ft and 17st 5lbs...
LCD is 6ft and 17st 7lbs
Jamie George is 5ft 10 and 17st
Jamie Blamire is 6'1 and 18st.

Not alot of difference really in actual physical size.

The stats on McGuigan are way off GF, when he was at Tigers he was listed at 5ft 9 and 15st. He's certainly on the smaller side for a hooker, watch this clip of the weekend (3min 35 onwards) when he pretty much gets out muscled by Alex Mitchell:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIPtUDAfgIw

Mitchell is listed as 5ft 10" and looks taller than McGuigan.....getting physically dominated by a scrum half....not a good look for a front row forward.

Blamire is a bit of wrecking ball who stood up physically to a SA last AI. If he can fine tune his darts a bit, he'll be right up there (the same clip above from 4'10 to 4'40 - some great stuff from Blamire). I personally wouldn't have McGuigan or Dolly anywhere near an England squad.

Matt Banahan got tackled by Shane Williams...every physically dominant player has been put on his a$$ at some stage. McGuigan might not be an absolute beast, but hes led a very small group of players (Robinson etc) who have pretty much carried a premiership team this season...and been the hooker of the season in the prem.

To dismiss him so readily is laughable Sgt.

Blamire is physcial a specimen and i really hope he comes good in the nitty gritty of lineout throwing etc. But hes not showing up just yet.

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Post by Geordie Tue 07 Jun 2022, 8:57 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Sinckler is out for the summer then. Does give us a chance to look at those tight head options.

No loss at all...he needs to get his aggression and passion back.

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