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England's Summer of Cricket 2022 as Joe Root Steps Down

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Post by sirfredperry Fri 15 Apr 2022, 9:24 am

Joe Root has decided to step down from the captaincy. Main problem now is - who should take over?

Stokes is the only one really in contention. But should he be lumbered with the captaincy? His workload is immense as it is. But if he doesn't take the job, then who?

Let's hope Root's stepping down doesn't effect his batting! Captaincy cares hardly showed in his stats over the last few months.

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Post by GSC Fri 15 Apr 2022, 9:41 am

In the short term I'd say give it to Broad for the craic but he was dropped for the WI tour so who knows. Not entirely sure Stokes is wise, he already has a large enough workload and his body doesn't seem to be reacting well to that.

You could pick someone to be captain without weakening the batting at this point I guess.
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Post by sirfredperry Fri 15 Apr 2022, 9:45 am

Broad as a stop-gap skipper might work and give a younger player such as Crawley time to cement his place and take over later.

Could be like Willis taking over around 1983 and 1984 before the captaincy passed to Gower, then Gatting, then Gooch.

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Post by Duty281 Fri 15 Apr 2022, 9:48 am

I wouldn't want Stokes to be the captain, his workload is already a great burden without adding the demands of the captaincy to it. It'd be like Flintoff's captaincy all over again.

Broad would only be a very short-term option, so I can't see the powers that be installing him. Plus England would lose all their reviews after five overs.

My personal preference would be someone currently outside the test setup, such as Abell.

Some odds from SkyBet for next captain - Stokes 4/6, Broad 7/1, Billings 8/1, Crawley 8/1, Bairstow 9/1, Foakes 10/1, Woakes 12/1, Abell 16/1, Vince 25/1, Burns 25/1.

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Post by alfie Fri 15 Apr 2022, 10:24 am

Can't see past Stokes , myself. Sure it might be a case of too much for the man ; but I have a feeling that , unlike Botham and Flintoff , Ben might actually be able to adapt to the different role without lessening his effectiveness to the team. For all his often highly aggressive batting , we have also seen him play very defensively - at least early in his innings - when caution was called for by the game situation (Notably Headingley 2019 !) Shows he is a thinking cricketer.

Risk he might overbowl ? perhaps. But many would like him to bowl a bit less even under other captains ; and perhaps he will do so as his career progresses - provided the selectors can equip him with a workable and balanced attack that allows him to stick to a proper fifth/sixth bowler role.

Broad as short term fix might be fun at least ! Most of the rest on that list look pretty fanciful...

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Post by Soul Requiem Fri 15 Apr 2022, 10:37 am

I'd be going for someone who captains their county, the batting is already so dire it can't do it any harm.

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Post by VTR Fri 15 Apr 2022, 11:04 am

Well no surprise really. I understand the calls for an outsider but never seen it happen in practice, even though its always touted as an option. Seem to recall likely Director of Cricket Rob Key always used to come up in these conversations. For as long as I can remember it's someone already in the team. That points heavily to Stokes

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Post by kingraf Fri 15 Apr 2022, 11:35 am

The captain doesn't pick the eleven anymore, but its hard to take a captain seriously if he's either just got into the side or on the verge of being dropped.

Unless he's won a World Cup👀England's Summer of Cricket 2022 as Joe Root Steps Down 3754190863England's Summer of Cricket 2022 as Joe Root Steps Down 3754190863
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Post by king_carlos Fri 15 Apr 2022, 2:01 pm

I know it's not the most popular opinion but my view is that the influence of captaincy in the modern game is largely overstated. Especially in Tests. I'd certainly argue that one day cricket sees the captaincy have far more affect due to field restrictions and bowling limits.

In Brearley or Lloyd's days it was completely different of course. Those guys were basically coaches, managers, mentors, selectors, analysts and from a couple of reads of Brearley's autobiography at times even babysitter to be frank. Lloyd famously dragged the Windies fitness standards towards the pro era at times kicking and screaming. Even then though many captains viewed as ''great captains'' have been quick to emphasise the importance of luck.

My general view in the modern era is that captains actually have fairly limited impact. Give a poor captain a great bowling lineup and they will be able to win games. Give a poor captain a good batting lineup and they will be able to at least look competitive across long periods by putting runs on the board. Give a great captain neither and they will have a very poor record.

I tend to feel that early in a captains career they get branded as good or bad largely due lazy punditry needing tripe to talk about. If a captain branded as creative tries a unorthodox field or bowling change to break a partnership it's viewed as creative. If it works it's remembered and repeated on comms ad nauseum. If it doesn't work it's forgotten. The exact same field or bowling change from a captain branded as poor is viewed as desperate and ridiculous. If it works it's forgotten. If it doesn't work it's brought up ad nauseum.

Really that's a different discussion though. On the England captaincy, do I see this side improving due to a change of captain? Nope.

It will still be a woefully weak batting lineup and a bowling attack that is very conditions dependant and has many fragile key bowlers.

We might see wins this summer against a good NZ and dangerous Proteas side but I'd have hoped for us to remain competitive at home regardless of the captain.

Hopefully Root can keep on batting at his best for a good while yet both in red ball and white ball cricket. His Test feats are well known but he is a spectacular ODI number 3 and if he spent more time playing it could certainly be a very good T20 player. I'd argue that Root is probably a more talented T20 batter than Smith or Williamson for instance.

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Post by Soul Requiem Fri 15 Apr 2022, 2:05 pm

I tend to disagree with that KC, I think the captaincy in white ball cricket is overstated especially T20. Field places and overall plans are preordained with little flexibility shown; Morgan is a fine man manager but tactically it doesn't matter.

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Post by kingraf Fri 15 Apr 2022, 2:40 pm

Even if captains had no say on field, I'd say its still an important job. You need to front up to the media when things go wrong. You've got to attend social functions (not every player is adept at this). And as Root has repeatedly found out, your head is that little bit more appealing when it's time for the mob lynching. Then of course you factor in the fact that any group of 20-something males generally need someone to direct them, and I'd say its a role you'd want to get right even without the on-field decision making.

I definitely agree with the idea that it's not as instrumental as it was 40 years ago, but I don't think there's no such thing a poor bowling change, and while I do agree that sometimes the decision to put in an extra cover or a third slip seems incredibly arbitrary, I think its worth noting that Steve Waugh and Graeme Smith seemed to more often than not make the right decision, so there's got to be something to it.
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Post by king_carlos Fri 15 Apr 2022, 2:54 pm

kingraf wrote:Even if captains had no say on field, I'd say its still an important job. You need to front up to the media when things go wrong. You've got to attend social functions (not every player is adept at this). And as Root has repeatedly found out, your head is that little bit more appealing when it's time for the mob lynching. Then of course you factor in the fact that any group of 20-something males generally need someone to direct them, and I'd say its a role you'd want to get right even without the on-field decision making.

I definitely agree with the idea that it's not as instrumental as it was 40 years ago, but I don't think there's no such thing a poor bowling change, and while I do agree that sometimes the decision to put in an extra cover or a third slip seems incredibly arbitrary, I think its worth noting that Steve Waugh and Graeme Smith seemed to more often than not make the right decision, so there's got to be something to it.

I didn't say there's no such thing as a bad bowling change. Just that the ones most spoken about such as 'golden arm' changes are almost entirely luck based. Same with unorthodox fields. If these bowling changes or fields that get heralded for some captains but castigated for others actually worked they wouldn't be unorthodox as others would copy them and they'd become regulation fields.

Waugh had Warne, McGrath, Gillespie, McDermott, Reid (briefly), etc etc. And an incredible batting lineup to give them runs. And the greatest keeper-batter of all time at 7.

Smith had Steyn, Morkel, Nitini and Kallis as one the best change bowlers of all time. Plus a good batting lineup.

Smith's captaincy of Steyn I find a really interesting example. He'd sometimes throw Steyn the ball and ask him for 3 overs at full tilt, not worry about the runs and just get me a wicket. On the one hand I think that's good captaincy. On the other hand to be able to do that you need Dale Steyn!

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Post by king_carlos Fri 15 Apr 2022, 3:03 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:I tend to disagree with that KC, I think the captaincy in white ball cricket is overstated especially T20. Field places and overall plans are preordained with little flexibility shown; Morgan is a fine man manager but tactically it doesn't matter.

Probably an agree to disagree situation coming but just not how I view it.

How bowlers are used in the PP and death in T20 has a huge affect on games and I don't think is preordained. There will be a plan but if those bowlers get spanked they change very quickly. Then things like protecting a short boundary on one side, trying to keep spinners especially away from bad matchups, etc. Whenever I listen to interviews with players, coaches, analysts, etc they seem to consistently feel that the shorter the form the more affect a skipper has in the field.

I find it interesting that I've heard the likes of Ponting and Warne mention that in Test cricket many of the bowling changes you make are simply made as seamers are knackered for instance!

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Post by kingraf Fri 15 Apr 2022, 3:06 pm

A good captain isn't going to elevate a bad team into a great one. But I think a bad captain can cap a really good team. To be clear, I don't even think Joe Root was that bad, and if I was the ECB, I'd be asking him to stay another 12 months. I just think that it's still an important enough role on the field that you need someone good at it doing it, and it's probably impossible in the modern game to have a captain who isn't a guaranteed selection in the squad. There's too much media now for a Brearley to get away with averaging 22 as a batsman
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Post by king_carlos Fri 15 Apr 2022, 3:43 pm

I'd agree somewhat that a really bad skipper could cap a good team. Similar to your second point though I just don't think Root was that bad or the teams at his disposal that good!

Had Burns form not slumped as it did I reckon he'd be in a prime position to slide in as skipper just now. Captaincy experience in the CC, winning the title with Surrey. Plus he's an opening batter and the face would fit for the establishment.

With the Broad talk it feels his brief and quietly ended stint as T20 skipper is being forgotten. It seemed pretty clear at the time that there was a general feeling of ''this was not a good idea and it was to end''. He's a great cricketer but also a fairly selfish one. Many great sportsmen are to an extent. But Broad certainly has been for much of his career. It's not like the whispers of Broad being a bad influence in the dressing room over the Ashes are brand new either. I can remember half joking remarks from teammates going back to when they were winning under Flower about other players wanting an input but not being allowed as they didn't have 300 Test wickets already. Great bowler, especially at home but I see little in Broad's career that suggests he should remotely be a captaincy candidate.

That's before mentioning that he probably wouldn't be in my full strength side even at home anymore. I think I'd be picking Woakes and Anderson ahead of Broad in England now. Accompanying them I'd ideally want Archer's pace and height for a change from right-arm fast-medium swing but if unavailable I'd probably look to Robinson's high release and talent as a seam bowler despite his fitness work ons. Given so many England seamers have fitness worries I still think Broad has a  part to play at home, I certainly wouldn't say he's must pick in every home Test anymore though.

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Post by king_carlos Fri 15 Apr 2022, 6:36 pm

Edit


Last edited by king_carlos on Mon 18 Apr 2022, 1:28 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Odd duplicate post!)

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Post by GSC Fri 15 Apr 2022, 6:59 pm

king_carlos wrote:I'd agree somewhat that a really bad skipper could cap a good team. Similar to your second point though I just don't think Root was that bad or the teams at his disposal that good!

Had Burns form not slumped as it did I reckon he'd be in a prime position to slide in as skipper just now. Captaincy experience in the CC, winning the title with Surrey. Plus he's an opening batter and the face would fit for the establishment.

With the Broad talk it feels his brief and quietly ended stint as T20 skipper is being forgotten. It seemed pretty clear at the time that there was a general feeling of ''this was not a good idea and it was to end''. He's a great cricketer but also a fairly selfish one. Many great sportsmen are to an extent. But Broad certainly has been for much of his career. It's not like the whispers of Broad being a bad influence in the dressing room over the Ashes are brand new either. I can remember half joking remarks from teammates going back to when they were winning under Flower about other players wanting an input but not being allowed as they didn't have 300 Test wickets already. Great bowler, especially at home but I see little in Broad's career that suggests he should remotely be a captaincy candidate.

That's before mentioning that he probably wouldn't be in my full strength side even at home anymore. I think I'd be picking Woakes and Anderson ahead of Broad in England now. Accompanying them I'd ideally want Archer's pace and height for a change from right-arm fast-medium swing but if unavailable I'd probably look to Robinson's high release and talent as a seam bowler despite his fitness work ons. Given so many England seamers have fitness worries I still think Broad has a  part to play at home, I certainly wouldn't say he's must pick in every home Test anymore though.
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Post by KP_fan Sat 16 Apr 2022, 5:27 am

Root quit.
He is the undisputed best batsman in test cricket now and a nice guy , but poor as a captain.

His poorness was less to do onnfield handling of resources where he is Medicore
But more in terms of selecting the 11 and giving an assertive direction to the selection of squads, even though that's primarily selectors job.
The latest being unable to say no to the dropping of Anderson and Broad and paying the price in losing to lowly WI

His game /match read and handling of situations erred on too defensive.

Who will replace him?
Only Stokes commands a place in the 11 snd mentally he has shown to be too fragile to handle even pressures when not captain
They can bring Broad back and make him captain for 2 years
Or ask Moeen Ali out of retirement 😃
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Post by Duty281 Sun 17 Apr 2022, 1:03 am

KP_Fan must have put a good wedge on Moeen, as Moeen has gone from 66/1 to 10/1 and third favourite on Sky Bet's list.

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Post by alfie Sun 17 Apr 2022, 8:43 am

Moeen is an interesting suggestion. (Highly unlikely , I think !) But he probably wouldn't be an awful choice if it were not for the fact that he's basically opted out of the red ball game and you'd have to wonder whether he would even be ready to attempt a step back into that cauldron. He isn't exactly a spring chicken at nearly 35 , although spinners can go on quite late ; and even if he would probably be about as effective as Jack Leach I'm not sure you'd see him as "the future" of England spin bowling.
Have to also ask whether a player with such fragile confidence would be suited to trying to drag England up out of the current pit of doom... I can't see it.

Don't know about the bookies but surely there aren't many even remotely sensible candidates ?  Never know with England management given some of the decisions they've made lately but I really hope they don't go silly and try some Hail Mary appointment in hopes they might get lucky...

1 .  Stokes is VC ; He is the only player apart from Root whose place in the side is indisputable ; he has led the side before in t20 (successfully) and one Test (rather less so !) and is undeniably an inspirational player. If not him , I think you need a pretty strong alternative.

2. Burns.  County skipper , until recently a regular Test opener - with a record which , if not exactly spectacular , was as good as , or better than , all the other opening candidates. Against him seems to me the feeling that they had decided he just wasn't ever going to progress : given 2019 is the only year in which he has averaged even 30 , you can understand that ; and were done with him - so this would be quite the reversal.

3. Broad . Really would be short term . Has the fire ; might serve to ginger them up a bit ? Trouble is you'd wonder if he could be expected to play each game: seven Tests this summer in a shortish period ! Think it might be fun but not sure it's a risk they'd be prepared to take.

4. Buttler. Don't laugh - Key (who might be supremo) likes him ; and he has some captaincy experience , albeit in white ball. But I think white ball is where he should be concentrating as Morgan's Heir Apparent : and surely they wouldn't want to try a captain in all formats again - least of all one whose red ball form has fallen off a cliff over the last year.

5+ Vince , Abell, Geoff Boycott's Teddy Bear : they aren't in the team ; they wouldn't be considered as players . So why even think about it ?

As for the rest of the incumbent 11 or 12 : Crawley , Lawrence , Foakes are too busy trying to establish a place in the team ; Bairstow is a bit too weird ; Woakes unselectable outside England (although I suppose he might conceivably do a job in the home summer ?) and the rest are one bad game away from the axe if they aren't on the way out anyway...

I am putting my house on Stokes. Broad as VC.

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Post by Duty281 Sun 17 Apr 2022, 2:10 pm

Key confirmed as the new managing director. The new era starts here etc.

I think Stokes will be the captain, but I don't want it to happen. He's already expected to play a starring role with bat and ball, heaping the captaincy on top would be too much. There's also the two added issues of:

1) Fitness - Stokes has all manner of fitness issues. His recent knee scan gave him an all-clear, but he's never far from breaking down unfortunately.
2) Off the field issues - he only recently took a four month break out of cricket completely, missing the T20 WC and India test series, due to mental health and physical strain. Is putting the captaincy on him, with the added pressure, such a great move? It could easily backfire and end in tears.

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Post by guildfordbat Sun 17 Apr 2022, 4:04 pm

Good last couple of posts from Alfie and Duty.

I'm happy enough with Rob Key's appointment. An experienced guy with a fine cricket brain and good knowledge of the current county game. Still going to be a mighty difficult role though. Credit as well to him for opting to take it on and leave the comfort of the Sky studio.

I suspect Alfie may well be right about the captaincy going to Stokes although the words ''too much on his plate already'' keep coming back to me. As Alfie rather ducked that along with the two extra issues highlighted by Duty, I'll leave him to address that upon waking down under. Smile

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Post by Lowlandbrit Sun 17 Apr 2022, 4:07 pm

The obvious answer is that the captain has to be Stokes because he's the only person guaranteed to be in the lineup.
That's also the reason I'd prefer to see them go for the 'outside' option and basically start from scratch though. Part of me was actually hoping the players would refuse to go on the Ashes tour at the time, and they'd sent a replacement squad of players with good county averages that were happy to get the chance instead to see what would happen and try to freshen things up a bit.

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Post by alfie Mon 18 Apr 2022, 3:28 am

The first necessary appointment made - let us hope Rob is indeed the Key to unlock England's potential...

Duty and guildford : you raise good points about Stokes and I do not deny they concern me too. In a perfect world , with acceptable alternatives , I would also prefer to leave Stokes without any extra burdens - he would in any case remain a leader through his actions and example.

If England were performing reasonably well at present and there was a bit of confidence around the team , I could just about wear the notion of tossing the armband to Crawley or Woakes or even Bairstow for the next few matches and seeing how it went (as KC suggested above , the role of the captain in actual decision making isn't what it once was ; so captaincy experience might not matter too much) . But they are really in a bit of a ditch at the moment , are they not ? I reckon they need someone who can take the team by the collar and lift them up with him by sheer force of personality... and I just don't think anyone else has the stature to do so .

Appointing a captain who might be discarded altogether in a few games (after further dispiriting losses) seems to me a bigger risk than overtaxing Stokes. And when you consider the difficulty they have had in finding players who can measure up to Test Cricket even when they come with outstanding first class form , bringing in a "wild card" whose form doesn't warrant selection on the off chance that they might blossom strikes me as totally nuts : the team really doesn't need even a "barely adequate" player taking up a locked in space for the sake of perceived leadership skills which may or may not translate.  And again : would such a candidate , parachuted in , be able to command the respect of the dressing room ?  I really don't want to see the captaincy become a revolving door for the next twelve months - which is surely possible if someone  who isn't a guaranteed long term player is given the job.

There certainly are risks around appointing Stokes. But England are in a dreadful spot at the moment and I think they need to be bold and accept them if they are to move out of it in the short term. Sure , he might get injured : but so might anyone - which is why vice captains are also picked. If he misses the odd game , so be it. Australia survived the absence of Cummins for one match ,eh ? His mental problems are hopefully behind him : I saw no signs of them in West Indies - or even in Australia where his issues revolved around getting back to full fitness. Yes , it is putting a lot on his plate : but I think he is one with the strength to manage it - and surely it is worth trying ? As long as he is willing to do the job , giving it to someone else would be almost disrespectful ...

Frankly , if they don't appoint Stokes , I reckon they are letting fear of possible failure trump common sense.  Which strikes me as a loser's mentality.

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Post by sirfredperry Mon 18 Apr 2022, 3:09 pm

Just England's luck that the obvious choice for captain is someone who, for a number of reasons, should NOT be saddled with the captaincy.

Broad, a stop-gap suggested by some, appears disinterested and I guess Stokes WILL be chosen as there appears to be no-one else.

It's all a contrast to the "old days" when England sides would often have three or four county captains in the side.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Mon 18 Apr 2022, 4:39 pm

Massively enjoying Jos dominating the IPL - second century of the season already today, miles ahead in the top run scoring charts
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Post by Duty281 Mon 18 Apr 2022, 5:01 pm

Remember when some people used to argue that Buttler shouldn't open in T20s?!

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Post by king_carlos Tue 19 Apr 2022, 1:43 am

If Broad is made captain then I desperately hope Root takes out a column with a paper and starts releasing pieces half way through Test matches talking about how it doesn't matter how many centuries he makes if England's opening bowlers keep bowling economically but with such defensive lines and lengths that they have strike rates to rival Ashley Giles.

It's not undermining your teammates if there's truth in it right?

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Fri 22 Apr 2022, 4:15 pm

Jos is doing the thing again, and it is beautiful
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Post by Soul Requiem Fri 22 Apr 2022, 4:22 pm

It's amazing what happens when you let a white ball player just be a white ball player.

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Post by king_carlos Fri 22 Apr 2022, 5:25 pm

He'd not exactly struggled to make a success of himself in T20 cricket before now to be fair!

He's a remarkable white ball player. I simply adore watching Jos bat when he's in this sort of form.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Sat 23 Apr 2022, 1:24 pm

Graham Ford has emerged as a favourite for the red ball (test coach) role with England according to Cricinfo, with Key splitting the red and white ball coaches.

Would make a lot of sense all round I think - Ford a solid appointment for the red ball stuff
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Post by guildfordbat Sat 23 Apr 2022, 2:09 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Graham Ford has emerged as a favourite for the red ball (test coach) role with England according to Cricinfo, with Key splitting the red and white ball coaches.

Would make a lot of sense all round I think - Ford a solid appointment for the red ball stuff

Agree about Ford. I've posted before that Key rates Ford from their time together at Kent (Key captain, Ford head coach). Prior to appointing Ford as their head coach, Surrey approached Key who spoke highly of him.

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Post by king_carlos Sat 23 Apr 2022, 2:49 pm

Splitting red and white ball is exactly the right call IMO. If England are continuing with their ludicrous schedule then it's a necessary move if you want quality coaching staff longer term.

Ideally I'd hope for someone such as Fleming, Ponting, Jayawardene, etc for the white ball stuff. If they can't be tempted away from the attractive franchise offers though then James Foster could potentially be an interesting call for the ODI and T20i side. Foster has targeted being a white ball coach early and has a very good reputation for a young coach. He's also got out and chased experience away from home which is often an issue for English coaches. Fozzy could work well as someone to manage Morgan's well oiled machine and try to keep them at that level as the side transitions - it is a sneakily old side as Olly put it well after the World T20!

The county season is so clogged and all consuming with the games and travel that finding time for much outside of the county job is often tough. County coaches frequently talk about it being difficult to find time for that much coaching in the hectic county season. It's so often a case of game, travel, game, rare day off at home with family, game, etc. Unless players are unavailable consistent coaching time can be tough. As such that often gets pushed back to preseason. Which is a great time to be coaching but also makes it even tougher for coaches to get away and find experience elsewhere.

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Post by Duty281 Sun 24 Apr 2022, 8:12 pm

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cricket/2022/04/24/gary-kirsten-approached-new-england-test-coach-reservations/

Telegraph saying Kirsten has been approached to be the test coach.

"Gary Kirsten has been approached by England to be the new head coach of the Test team. Telegraph Sport also understands that Justin Langer is out of the running for the job.

Rob Key will split the coaching roles and it is understood England have been in touch with Kirsten to sound him out over the Test role. Kirsten declined to comment when approached by Telegraph Sport.

Stokes will meet with Key this week to discuss the role [captaincy] and one of his first moves as Joe Root’s replacement will be to bring back Stuart Broad and James Anderson.

Stokes wants England’s two legendary bowlers to play a full part this summer, injury and rest periods permitting.

Broad is in line to play his first game of the season this week for Nottinghamshire against Worcestershire at Trent Bridge.

Broad was close to retiring and taking a job with Sky when he was dropped after the Ashes and would probably have walked away if Root had stayed in the job and England won in the West Indies."

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Sun 24 Apr 2022, 9:19 pm

Good news re: Broad and Anderson - hopefully we can put the bizarre West Indies situation behind us, and they can go out on a high in the coming years. I actually think, they were two who England were essentially managing perfectly before the random banishment...! (ie. home stalwarts, and not locks to play overseas but in the touring party).

Stokes makes the most sense captaincy wise - providing he is 100% ok with taking it on mentally, then I don't really see another realistic option...and he is the type who could really thrive with it. The fact he's skipped the IPL to concentrate on recovery and being ready for this summer shows to me he will be up for it.
Do think he will need a strong coach to help him particularly in the early days. Ford or Kirsten seem to make sense?

Of course, this is ultimately a lot of window dressing, but other fixes (ie. producing a test bat worth a damn!) are long term. Short term, these moves all seem logical and to make sense to me.
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Post by Jetty Mon 25 Apr 2022, 1:46 pm

From what I have read it seems Stokes will become captain. Most important who will become vice-captain. If it is Root then it would seem nothing has really changed.

With all the injuries Stokes has had I would imagine he would still play even if he is injured as captain.

Should give the vice captaincy to Broad, who is said to be very stubborn. Not likely to let Stokes have his own way. Also less chance of Broad being dropped, like he was when Stokes was Test captain v WI in 2020. That summer Broad took 29 wickets at 13.41 after missing the 1st Test.

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Post by king_carlos Mon 25 Apr 2022, 5:01 pm

Is Broad still nailed on for the first choice XI at home? Even with Archer injured that is.

Anderson would still be my first pick then I'd probably take Woakes ahead of Broad these days in home conditions. From there I'd argue that even with Archer out Robinson might be the best bowler to accompany them due to his very high release and use of the wobble ball offering at least some point of difference to Anderson and Woakes.

For me I'd be selecting two from Anderson, Woakes and Broad at home rather than all three these days.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Mon 25 Apr 2022, 5:42 pm

king_carlos wrote:Is Broad still nailed on for the first choice XI at home? Even with Archer injured that is.

Anderson would still be my first pick then I'd probably take Woakes ahead of Broad these days in home conditions. From there I'd argue that even with Archer out Robinson might be the best bowler to accompany them due to his very high release and use of the wobble ball offering at least some point of difference to Anderson and Woakes.

For me I'd be selecting two from Anderson, Woakes and Broad at home rather than all three these days.

He is for me until Ollie Robinson can send down a 3rd spell in a day which isn't off spin
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Post by guildfordbat Mon 25 Apr 2022, 7:59 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
king_carlos wrote:Is Broad still nailed on for the first choice XI at home? Even with Archer injured that is.

Anderson would still be my first pick then I'd probably take Woakes ahead of Broad these days in home conditions. From there I'd argue that even with Archer out Robinson might be the best bowler to accompany them due to his very high release and use of the wobble ball offering at least some point of difference to Anderson and Woakes.

For me I'd be selecting two from Anderson, Woakes and Broad at home rather than all three these days.

He is for me until Ollie Robinson can send down a 3rd spell in a day which isn't off spin

Robinson might be needed for off spin if Jack Leach's season doesn't kick off soon!Wink Still to take a Championship wicket after Somerset's first three matches. Tbf, some extenuating factors. Rested upon ECB orders for the season opener against Hants, didn't bowl in a low scoring and narrow defeat to Essex and then zilch for 58 off 22 overs against Surrey.

Ok, so no need to panic but not exactly encouraging either.

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Post by king_carlos Tue 26 Apr 2022, 12:13 am

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
king_carlos wrote:Is Broad still nailed on for the first choice XI at home? Even with Archer injured that is.

Anderson would still be my first pick then I'd probably take Woakes ahead of Broad these days in home conditions. From there I'd argue that even with Archer out Robinson might be the best bowler to accompany them due to his very high release and use of the wobble ball offering at least some point of difference to Anderson and Woakes.

For me I'd be selecting two from Anderson, Woakes and Broad at home rather than all three these days.

He is for me until Ollie Robinson can send down a 3rd spell in a day which isn't off spin

Laugh I'd tried to wipe the memory of Robinson bowling offies in his shades.

Archer can bowl some pretty serviceable left-arm wrist-spin apparently. I'd love it if Jof went full Sobers at some point and just whipped that out.

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Post by king_carlos Tue 26 Apr 2022, 12:15 am

Matt Parkinson has started the season well. Whilst I do share others worries that with how slowly he bowls Test quality batters might well use their feet to easily nullify him but he's doing what he needs to in domestic cricket to earn the chance to prove whether his methods can or can't work at the next level.

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Post by JDizzle Tue 26 Apr 2022, 11:18 am

Scott Borthwick (2013) - 28 wickets @ 38
Mason Crane (2017) - 16 @ 45
Matt Parkinson (2021) - 36 @ 21
Matt Parkinson (2022) - 11 @ 25

The concerns about leg spinners, at Parkinson in particular, at Test level are well known. But I think there are genuine reasons, other than blind optimism, that he could be a success. He deserves his shot this summer, albeit he deserved a shot in T2 in the Windies.

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Post by alfie Tue 26 Apr 2022, 12:21 pm

I think we would all like to see what Parkinson can do at Test level. The trick will be to introduce him at the right time as we surely don't want to see him become one of the long list of young England spinners who were picked once , got hammered in their first game , and were never seen again (couple of those mentioned above : but not confined to them - or indeed just to wrist spinners . Kerrigan , Schofield come to mind) So I'd be hesitant about picking him too early in the season while seam is still ruling - or against India ; who tend to be rather good players of spin.
Reckon he might well get a run this summer as Leach is not exactly tearing down trees and doesn't offer that compelling a case with better batting skills , for all his undoubted determination. Batting might be something of an issue for Parkinson as there is some reason to be anxious about any England 8-11 which doesn't include Woakes : but then again with Moeen retired from the red ball game and Bess out of favour it is hard to see any spinner batting much above ten...

In an ideal world Parkinson might come into a match against SA later in the summer. Hopefully into a team playing with a bit more confidence than has lately been the case. Too much to ask ?

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Post by Jetty Tue 26 Apr 2022, 1:32 pm

king_carlos wrote:Is Broad still nailed on for the first choice XI at home? Even with Archer injured that is.

Anderson would still be my first pick then I'd probably take Woakes ahead of Broad these days in home conditions. From there I'd argue that even with Archer out Robinson might be the best bowler to accompany them due to his very high release and use of the wobble ball offering at least some point of difference to Anderson and Woakes.

For me I'd be selecting two from Anderson, Woakes and Broad at home rather than all three these days.

Fit - Overton, Mahmood, Anderson, Broad
Coming back from injury - Robinson (next match), Curran (only bowled 10 overs)
Not playing as yet as they are recovering - Woakes, Stokes, Wood, Stone, Fisher, Archer

Should be picked by category - one of each and Stokes
Tall - Broad, Robinson, Overton
Fast - Archer, Wood, Stone, Mahmood (fastish)
Swing - Anderson, Woakes, Curran



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Post by Duty281 Tue 26 Apr 2022, 5:37 pm

https://app.beapplied.com/apply/cs6nj4njsx

Seems Kirsten hasn't been approached as the roles for (separate) red ball and white ball head coaches have been formally advertised on the ECB website, with interviews set for the 9th and 10th May. So we'll still be waiting a bit for an appointment and, with England's first game of the summer on the 2nd June v New Zealand, the new red ball coach won't have a lot of time to settle in.

Kirsten and Ford are considered the leading contenders for the red ball position, Katich for the white ball.

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Post by Duty281 Thu 28 Apr 2022, 11:17 am

Stokes confirmed as captain. Not a fan of the decision and don't think it'll work. I'd be surprised if Stokes lasted more than a couple of summers in the role. Root struggled with the toll of the role, and passing that pressure on to Stokes who has had numerous issues with his mental and physical health is, I think, a recipe for calamity.

I also find it odd that they've appointed a captain before appointing the coach.

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Post by GSC Thu 28 Apr 2022, 12:14 pm

I don't think really there was much of a decision. Only 2 players assured to be in the team beyond this summer and 1 of them just stepped down as Captain.

Rather was an alternative to Stokes adding to his workload sure, but wishing for one doesn't make one exist
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Post by dummy_half Thu 28 Apr 2022, 2:39 pm

Duty281 wrote:Stokes confirmed as captain. Not a fan of the decision and don't think it'll work. I'd be surprised if Stokes lasted more than a couple of summers in the role. Root struggled with the toll of the role, and passing that pressure on to Stokes who has had numerous issues with his mental and physical health is, I think, a recipe for calamity.

I also find it odd that they've appointed a captain before appointing the coach.

While not disagreeing with any of the above, the problem was that there was no other credible option. Hopefully the next few months will see a couple of players really establish themselves (Crawley?) and broaden the field of possible captains for the future.

Basically shows what a state the Test team is in at the moment.

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Post by Duty281 Thu 28 Apr 2022, 4:47 pm

There were other alternatives, though the test team is certainly in a state. We'll see how it works out. Certainly expectations won't be high this year.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/61258933

Key said a lot of things this morning. Some key points:

- No more rotation for the sake of it, he wants to pick the best team available for each test.
- Anderson and Broad returning, after the moronic decision to drop them for the West Indies.
- Key is only 'optimistic' that a new test coach will be appointed in time for the first test v New Zealand on the 2nd June, which doesn't sound good.
- The national selector role will be re-established, just a year after Ashley Giles axed the role entirely. Unsure who that will be, perhaps James Taylor.
- Key isn't keen on a formal VC for the test arena.
- Key is open to the possibility of Joe Clarke being called up for England, so maybe the door is open for Alex Hales as well?

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