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England post 2022 6Ns, Aus tour and beyond

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Post by formerly known as Sam Thu 30 Jun 2022, 9:22 am

First topic message reminder :

sensisball wrote:
With Bath enduring a terrible season how many tries has Cokonasiga scored?

In five starts and four sub appearances he's bagged five tries. One appearance and one try for England.

It's a bench lacking experience but it's the type of players we'd like to have as options come the world cup.

Ignore the front row that pretty much picked itself.

Chessum - covers lock and 6 highly mobile and physical, good lineout option and we've been desperate for a young lock to come through.

Ludlam - covers 8 and 7 which is what the bench needs, club captain so adds much needed leadership here.

JVP - no one likes the current 9 options for last season's Under 20 captain and player of the J6N gets a chance. Best kicking game of the three 9s on tour and likes to play high tempo.

Porter - covers every position in the backs outside of 9 and 10, could probably do a job on the flank as well. Eddie likes a versatility option as they very much help the overall squad come world cup so audition time for Guy.

Arundell - exciting young player, not ready yet but Eddie will be hoping some international game time might speed up his development. Unlikely starter but potential game changer off the bench, always handy to have one of those at a world cup. Porter's inclusion means Arundell won't have to go in early unless there's multiple injuries.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 29 Jul 2022, 3:26 pm

I only had the 3. Think Baxter is dropping and Robertson isn't English.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Fri 29 Jul 2022, 5:54 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:I only had the 3. Think Baxter is dropping and Robertson isn't English.

Baxter did give an interview saying that he was restructuring how Chiefs backroom staff worked so that he was more hands off in terms of training recently. It was down to him wanting to reset the culture and some other things but at the time the thought in my mind was that would make it easier for him to leave for England.

Robertson might be given an all English backroom staff to work with it some other excuse to get him in.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 30 Jul 2022, 10:33 am

I'm a bit on the fence with Baxter now as the pick and drive game looks to have been so integral and he hasn't really found a way round it yet. If they do get back to winning this season his name will be more prominent but the resurgence of Leicester and France put those candidates higher for me.

I thought it was stupid the RFU said they wanted an English coach as it excluded 2 amazing potential applicants. I hope they do climb down from it but they seem a bunch of idiots.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 16 Aug 2022, 8:34 am

Interesting comments from Burrell in the Daily Heil:

'“It’s a dictatorship. That is how I felt when I was part of Eddie’s set-up. That sort of environment doesn’t allow the players within it to grow and make wrong decisions, which is crucial.

“No one wants to make a wrong decision, but rugby is never going to be a smooth process. The ability to make mistakes, learn from them and then correct them the next time around is crucial to the growth and development of both a player and the team as a whole.

“I’m not sure England’s players feel they can do that. They’re worried about making errors which could lead to them being dropped. They live in fear of Eddie.

“So too do his assistant coaches. That much is clear by the huge number who have worked in the England set-up under him and then moved on.”'


Think it's in part a follow up on Jones criticism of leaders coming through the private schools. I'm not convinced by the theory that Jones doesn't allow mistakes to be learned from as I've seen shed loads over the years and players retained; some of which improved some not! Pretty much stems from his brutal pulling in that Aus game in 2016 to never been seen in white again. When Care was subbed he did mention how difficult he found it and it clearly impacted him. Not sure what sort of psych support is granted to England players currently but will be interesting to see if Care continues with England in the Autumn (about 4th choice for me at present).

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Post by lostinwales Tue 16 Aug 2022, 9:30 am

EJ seems to tailor his treatment of players to the individual and the need. I keep on going back to his relationship with Marler.

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Post by Rugby Fan Tue 16 Aug 2022, 12:42 pm

I'm sure Burrell and Cipriani are accurately describing their experience of Jones in 2016, and 2018 respectively. Since then, it does seem Jones changed his style. After he dropped the Vunipolas, George (briefly), Ford etc, it was common to hear from squad players how different the mood was. There was even talk of him listening to players like Lawes about when it was time to ease off on pushing the squad.

That's not to say players now have the kind of autonomy which Cipriani would prefer to see. Jones is still very prescriptive in his methods but most of his squad have bought into that philosophy. Jones is just more flexible in letting players get to where he wants them to be, in their own way.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Tue 16 Aug 2022, 2:54 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Interesting comments from Burrell in the Daily Heil:

'“It’s a dictatorship. That is how I felt when I was part of Eddie’s set-up. That sort of environment doesn’t allow the players within it to grow and make wrong decisions, which is crucial.

“No one wants to make a wrong decision, but rugby is never going to be a smooth process. The ability to make mistakes, learn from them and then correct them the next time around is crucial to the growth and development of both a player and the team as a whole.

“I’m not sure England’s players feel they can do that. They’re worried about making errors which could lead to them being dropped. They live in fear of Eddie.

“So too do his assistant coaches. That much is clear by the huge number who have worked in the England set-up under him and then moved on.”'


Think it's in part a follow up on Jones criticism of leaders coming through the private schools. I'm not convinced by the theory that Jones doesn't allow mistakes to be learned from as I've seen shed loads over the years and players retained; some of which improved some not! Pretty much stems from his brutal pulling in that Aus game in 2016 to never been seen in white again. When Care was subbed he did mention how difficult he found it and it clearly impacted him. Not sure what sort of psych support is granted to England players currently but will be interesting to see if Care continues with England in the Autumn (about 4th choice for me at present).

I'm not saying Burrell is necessarily wrong but his time in the England squad under Jones was not particularly lengthy and he does have an axe to grind.

Haskell and Hartley have both said it was a testing atmosphere but that they did grow as players within it. They are both big Eddie fans so again are likely to defend him.

I suspect Care will be dropped for the AIs but it might depend on Quirke's fitness and form. Randall going from starter to not even in the squad is likely to get dropped for Youngs to return.

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Post by king_carlos Tue 16 Aug 2022, 3:05 pm

Jones often talks about rugby going in cycles. He felt that the previous RWC cycle was a defensive one and England played that way with a very strict game plan. Losing the RWC final will mean some view it as unsuccessful but the two 6 Nations wins, record winning streak and making the RWC final is a pretty good return if you ask me.

It wouldn't surprise me if the strict game plan was mirrored in the environment.

The Sarries core, Farrell especially, that made up the spine of that side are famous for being brutal about training mistakes too. Several Lions teammates have spoken about that side of Farrell, albeit largely in glowing terms, in training. Apparently if players make mistakes or aren't fully on in training they know about it instantly. Some will like that and others not though. That just depends on the environment players are accustomed to I'd guess.

Paul O'Connell was a bit like that too. There's a good passage in his bio (one of few sportsman bios I've really enjoyed cover to cover for those wanting a decent read) about analysis of a Munster game. The analyst shows a kick from ROG with a poor chase from a young winger. The winger gets asked why he's not chasing harder and doesn't have a response. After the session an incensed POC drags him to one side wanting an explanation thinking, "why is this kid playing if he can't be bothered to chase". The kid says something along the lines of, "the kick was terrible and too long so I hung back to keep the line". POC thinks about it, realises it was a terrible kick from ROG and asks why the winger didn't say. Of course he's a young lad in a team meeting and ROG is already a Munster legend. Now POC is incensed that the lad didn't speak his mind!

It wouldn't surprise me if the environment has relaxed a bit as England have tried, though largely with pish results, to move to a less structured game plan.

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Post by Poorfour Tue 16 Aug 2022, 8:55 pm

Really interesting point king_carlos. There’s a similar story told about Peter O’Mahony when he was an academy player. The older players goaded the academy group into staying late and joining a hard lineout session that had been added after a recent defeat. POM led the academy players through the session, but afterwards went up to the senior ringleader and told him in no uncertain terms that the academy guys were on a very specific training regime to avoid excess workloads before their bodies could handle it, and never to ask them to deviate from that again. That was cited as one of early indicators that O’Mahony was a bit special as a leader as well as purely as a player.

It would be fascinating to know what the dynamic is in the England changing room. Quins players have said that Smith is very vocal within their group - in which many of the squad are older and more experienced internationally (though to be fair, Smtih has been calling the shots since he was 18 and has had Nick Evans to back him up for all that time) - and I wonder how well that’s translated to the England environment. If Eddie’s to be believed, he wants to work towards a dynamic where Smith can call the attack if it’s on, but if it isn’t there are players either side who can change the picture.

Jeremy Guscott used to refuse the ball if it wasn’t good enough and rely on the likes of Andrew and Carling to make it better, and I think England need to get to a similar position, albeit with less overall cockwomblery.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 23 Aug 2022, 12:19 pm

He's a bit of a pillock but thought this was quite an interesting set of talking points from Haskell. This was from an interview from the Mirror:

Anyone remotely familiar with James Haskell 's persona would consider the ex- rugby star as energetic, engaging and eminently excitable—each of which can work both for and against in the social media age.

But it wasn't always a foregone conclusion that he would emerge with such a bubbly exterior, both during his playing career and now as he explores his avenues outside rugby. Rather, it took years of reflection and reinforcement to overcome his early struggles against self-doubt.

It was 20 years ago now that Haskell, 37, first started seeing a psychologist as a means of improving performance. In that sense, the Berkshire native was ahead of the curve at a time when, had you asked a changing room of rugby players if they were talking to a mental health specialist, he'd be "the only one putting their hand up."


"I started along that path and found it incredibly useful, and then obviously uncovered that I probably struggled with my self-confidence," Haskell told The Mirror, speaking exclusively as part of the second series of the Under the Surface podcast, with menswear brand Original Penguin x CALM (Campaign Against Living Miserably).

"Contrary to what people might think of my natural demeanour - I am a performer - I am quite hard on myself a lot of the time, perhaps didn't back myself as much as I should have done. I didn't deal with negativity or failure very well at times.

"That was something I consistently worked on, and it worked all the way through my career. I tried different approaches; I've spoken to hypnotherapists, teams of psychologists, always trying to find the best way of performing."

James Haskell was ahead of the curve among his peers when it came to addressing his mental health
James Haskell was ahead of the curve among his peers when it came to addressing his mental health

It clearly served him well during a spectacular career that produced 77 England caps, one British and Irish Lions tour (2017), a home World Cup and club stints in France, Japan and New Zealand. Haskell retired at Northampton Saints in 2019, but his Premiership days will be most fondly remembered for his two tenures with Wasps, whom he helped win the league in 2008 (still their most recent title).

Never one to follow a crowd, the former I'm a Celebrity contestant—who recently welcomed his first child, a daughter, with wife Chloe Madeley—encountered push-back when he first started out. Haskell—who is now pursuing his dreams as a DJ—got creative when others called his pre-match podcast-listening or note-reading as "overthinking," investing in smaller headphones or hiding his research to avoid a rebuking.

"I've always been inherently selfish in regards to my own career," he continued. "When people told me not do something, I'd go and do it anyway. Paying for my own physiotherapists, doctors, nutritionists, sprint coaches, psychologists and therapists. You know, you only get one career and one life, and it doesn't matter what your opinion is, if I know it makes sense for me, I'm going to do it anyway."

The former England regular flourished on the rugby field in tough-to-manage situations, often putting himself in the firing line where others might shirk responsibility. It was those kinds of values that captured the attention of England head coach Eddie Jones, under whom he saw out his days in white.

Like him, Jones has also come in for scrutiny over the course of a long career in rugby, both for things he has said and for failing to meet the expectations placed on England at times. Four wins from a possible 10 across the last two Six Nations campaigns put the Australian back in the spotlight this summer, though a 2-1 series win over the Wallabies last month has eased pressures somewhat.

"I had five England coaches, and he [Jones] was far and away the best," praised Haskell. "He created the best environment, was the most professional, the most dedicated and knew how to get the best out of players. Does he always get it right? No. Does any coach? But he gets more right than he gets wrong."

The former flanker would put Jones "up there as the best coach I had during my career," but not everyone concurs. Namely, 2003 Rugby World Cup-winning strategist Clive Woodward is often among the incumbent's most vocal critics, but Haskell can't grasp the reasons behind his gripe.

"It's a hard one for me because the only person who appears to never be happy when Eddie Jones is doing well is Clive Woodward," he continued. "I don't know what it is about him, but he just seems to come after Eddie for everything. I find it very bizarre.

"Clive hasn't coached in rugby since 2005 and really has no concept of what's going on in the setup. He's desperate to sort of pick this job up between Eddie and the RFU —a sort of performance director role—and he's never going to get it [no matter how hard he tries]. I find it astounding really."

The criticism is arguably less helpful now than ever, with England a little more than one year out from their next World Cup. A series win Down Under, Haskell hoped, will be enough for everyone to 'finally shut up and give Jones a chance.'

There's one more World Cup on the horizon before then, though, as the Red Roses venture to New Zealand in October, one year later than planned. The Black Ferns were scheduled to defend their crown on home soil in 2021, but the tournament was postponed as a result of the Covid-19 pandemic.

It's a change that, in hindsight, could work in the Red Roses' favour after England already won major silverware in 2022. The country's Lionesses captivated record audiences as they won Euro 2022, and Haskell is eager to see their rugby equivalents—who have won the last four Six Nations titles—capitalise on a special summer for women's sport.

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"What the Lionesses have done is amazing," he said. "Obviously football is a much bigger sport than rugby, and for a women's team to do it in football is massive because of how popular it is. But the Red Roses have had incredible success. They've won World Cups, they've won everything, but perhaps they haven't had the same media exposure and the platform they need, but people are now looking."


And therein lies the battle. Many who promote the women's game know full well the potential of its stars, and events like Euro 2022 help draw the eyes needed to engage further and encourage investment. Haskell is all for those stars getting the attention they deserve given "99 per cent of the Red Roses are already more successful than I'll ever be" given their World Cup win in 2014.

"I think the Lionesses put on a spectacle, showed the journey and those personalities, even the way they stormed the [post-final] press conference singing, the fun and levity they all had," he gushed. "The Red Roses have been doing that for a while, I just think we need to shine a light on it."

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Post by Rugby Fan Wed 24 Aug 2022, 9:33 am



Video of South Africa "A" U18 vs England U18

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Post by Geordie Wed 24 Aug 2022, 11:21 am

England beat the SA U18 "A" team.

Rugby Pass posted that England beat South Africa....cue all the wired up embarrassingly laughable SA fans screaming it was the "A" team and that we have beaten England in the World Cup finals twice.

Jeez....worse than the Kiwi fans these days.

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Post by mikey_dragon Wed 24 Aug 2022, 12:48 pm

We narrowly beat their U18 A teams a couple years ago. Junior rugby in SA might be the strongest it's ever been. Still, half their players will be nicked by Japan, France and Scotland, among others. So a bit of good news for the rest of us.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 25 Aug 2022, 1:56 pm

Their under 18s look very good this year from the bits of matches I've seen and results. Don't blame some of the fans correcting Rugby Pass, we didn't get close to their full team and scraped past their seconds. Some much variability at this level, and I've said it for a while, it's nice to have great teams but it's probably more helpful to international managers to produce 1 outstanding player a year.

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Post by Margin_Walker Thu 25 Aug 2022, 9:37 pm

In the latest in English rugby nepotism news, Tyler Offiah (son of Martin) is knocking around playing u18s for LI. Just turned 16 and played four games, scoring in every one. One to keep an eye out for in a few years.

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Post by lostinwales Fri 26 Aug 2022, 10:10 am

Margin_Walker wrote:In the latest in English rugby nepotism news, Tyler Offiah (son of Martin) is knocking around playing u18s for LI. Just turned 16 and played four games, scoring in every one. One to keep an eye out for in a few years.

It is not nepotism it is selective breeding. So far the Tuilagi program has been a failure but some of the others seem to be working out OK.

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Post by Cumbrian Fri 26 Aug 2022, 11:27 am

lostinwales wrote:
Margin_Walker wrote:In the latest in English rugby nepotism news, Tyler Offiah (son of Martin) is knocking around playing u18s for LI. Just turned 16 and played four games, scoring in every one. One to keep an eye out for in a few years.

It is not nepotism it is selective breeding. So far the Tuilagi program has been a failure but some of the others seem to be working out OK.

I read an interview given by his dad that said Tyler was already 6ft 2in, what are they feeding him???
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Post by Margin_Walker Fri 26 Aug 2022, 12:46 pm

Cumbrian wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
Margin_Walker wrote:In the latest in English rugby nepotism news, Tyler Offiah (son of Martin) is knocking around playing u18s for LI. Just turned 16 and played four games, scoring in every one. One to keep an eye out for in a few years.

It is not nepotism it is selective breeding. So far the Tuilagi program has been a failure but some of the others seem to be working out OK.

I read an interview given by his dad that said Tyler was already 6ft 2in, what are they feeding him???

Yeah he's pretty tall and will no doubt fill out a bit. This is him making a break leading to a try yesterday

https://youtu.be/u3ScUunyVBU?t=4901

And scoring one before that

https://youtu.be/u3ScUunyVBU?t=4559

Best player on the pitch was actually another player with a notable name playing up an age group. Kepu Tuipulotu at 8.

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Post by Poorfour Fri 26 Aug 2022, 1:01 pm

Kids who are going to be big often do a big chunk of their growing early. Being 6’2” at 16 isn’t that remarkable - I was 6’3” at 14 and my son has some school friends who hit that height at 12 or 13. Kids that size don’t usually fill out to their full weight until their early 20s, though.
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Post by Margin_Walker Fri 26 Aug 2022, 1:08 pm

Yeah, very true. Height wise nothing spectacular, given that most will stop growing (upwards) at 16 or so anyway.

I would have been 6’2” or so at 16 and actually kept going fairly late compared to friends finishing at 6’5” at 17.

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Post by Cumbrian Fri 26 Aug 2022, 2:00 pm

Get to hell the both of you, you're just showing off! I'm only 5 ft 11.5in (the half inch is important). Very Happy
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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 26 Aug 2022, 5:08 pm

He looks pretty slight but he has shades of his dad's running style.

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Post by doctor_grey Sat 27 Aug 2022, 6:14 am

Cumbrian wrote:Get to hell the both of you, you're  just showing off!  I'm only 5 ft 11.5in (the half inch is important).  Very Happy
Per the Office for National Statistics the average height of a UK adult male is 5'9", with an average weight of 13.2 stone (185 lbs.).   Which means you are above average.  Isn't that a nice thing to say about someone?

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Post by Rugby Fan Sun 28 Aug 2022, 3:09 am



South Africa U18 vs England U18

I won't put the result, because it's a good watch without spoilers.

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Post by Rugby Fan Tue 30 Aug 2022, 8:55 am

Danny Care is on the BBC rugby podcast this week. He was asked directly about being substituted off early in the third Test, and was reasonably philosophical about it.

Ultimately, he enjoyed being back with England, and said it felt a more united squad than he remembers from the last time he played. He had come to terms with not playing international rugby again, and had told himself he didn't need it any longer. However, as soon as he joined up, he realized how much he had missed it.

He was disappointed to be subbed off. While he knows he didn't start well, he thought Hooper should have been penalized when he caught him at the base of the scrum (or was it a ruck?). Though the substitution took place after 35 minutes, he noticed JVP warming up a lot earlier, so figured something was up. He spoke with Jones after the game, and the following day, and there's no bad blood.

Care conceded his substitution appeared to give the team a kick up the backside, which helped them win the game. He didn't want to speculate on whether a different change might have had the same effect. However, he did say he would rather have been the villain, than see a player like Marcus Smith hauled off earlier.

In all, Care clearly didn't enjoy being subbed off (he stayed away from social media in the immediate aftermath) but isn't throwing his toys out of the pram. While that might partly be a strategy to try and keep the England door open, it did sound like he wouldn't have turned down the chance to be a Test player again, even if he'd know how it was going to go.

Monye noted the BBC podcast has been critical of the England team, and asked him how he felt about England now, having been on the inside again. Care said the players and staff are aware of what needs to improve, and are focused on trying to do that. He is optimistic about England's chances at the next World Cup.


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Post by Geordie Wed 31 Aug 2022, 4:12 pm

Lots of talk about the Number 8 position...with Mercer heading back etc.

If everyones in top form and fitness...who do you pick and how in turn does that affect the rest of the back row and potentially back 5...

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Post by propdavid_london Wed 31 Aug 2022, 4:21 pm

I see Mercer as a very similar player to Dombrandt - with perhaps Domers carrying a bit more ballast.
Billy had a good tour and looked to be getting back to his old self.
and Simmonds for me still hasnt looked amazing in an England shirt...although I appreciate that at times the game plan hasn't suited his strengths.
Ludlam didnt look out of place when given a shot either.

And so many others in the wings - Willis, Barbeary etc. (perhaps more of a shot post WC)

Its still IMO hard to look beyond a fully fit and functioning Curry and Underhill (although depends on where Lawes is picked now as feel the captaincy is his for the foreseeable).
So its really about a No.8 that works well with those guys.

With 4 games in Nov we will hopefully see some good combinations.


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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 31 Aug 2022, 4:32 pm

Really like Mercer, was disappointed that he was dropped after his initial pick. Was ahead of Dombrandt there but wouldn't be surprised to see him back involved. Apparently he's not available until the WC warm ups.

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Post by propdavid_london Wed 31 Aug 2022, 4:33 pm

Leaving it a bit late for WC selection - but if he maintains recent form then he will be hard to ignore.

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Post by Geordie Wed 31 Aug 2022, 9:57 pm

If Dombrandt can put in the performances at the next level it'll be hard to see anyone beating him....but...a fit lean and on form Billy is a top class 8.

What we mustn't forget about Dombrandt is that (at prem and European level anyway) his dirty work..such as the breakdown etc is actually very good.

I see it as Dombrandt v Billy at the moment...and Mercer will have to be going some to make it if he's only available from the WC warm ups.

I rate Willis highly but can't see him or Chick making much ground internationally, and jury still well out on Barbeary for me, and Simmonds is a 7 or 12.

I'll watch Ted Hills performances at 8 with interest as I rate him so highly.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 01 Sep 2022, 8:47 am

So many options, really comes down to personal taste in a lot of cases. I'm guessing if you ran a poll on peoples preferred starting England team here there would perhaps only be 2 or 3 players which make every team.

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Post by propdavid_london Thu 01 Sep 2022, 9:12 am

Where is Ted Hills best position GF?
He seems to have covered most of the back 5 positions!
I seem to recall his time at lock wasnt the most productive.

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Post by Geordie Thu 01 Sep 2022, 11:22 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:So many options, really comes down to personal taste in a lot of cases. I'm guessing if you ran a poll on peoples preferred starting England team here there would perhaps only be 2 or 3 players which make every team.

Well thats the thing, we all do have our favorites, be it club bias or just player preference.

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Post by Geordie Thu 01 Sep 2022, 11:35 am

propdavid_london wrote:Where is Ted Hills best position GF?
He seems to have covered most of the back 5 positions!
I seem to recall his time at lock wasnt the most productive.

Well clearly no-one is sure, but personally ive said for a long time he should be focusing on 8. Finally they have listened to me...Wink Very Happy.
(If he stays at Worcester with the present situation of course)

If he has speed around him on the flanks, at the breakdown etc you can get him focused on just bringing his physicality to the match in attack and defence to dictate the games. Really work on his lineout to make it top class and you'd have a very good option there...

Will he make the England starting spot....well thats a different story i guess. Theres plenty of competition, but no outright leading contender. Its up to him to really take the position on and become one of the dominant 8s in the league consistently. That will get Jones attention.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 01 Sep 2022, 11:36 am

England Women are on ITV on Saturday for those wanting to watch.

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Post by propdavid_london Thu 01 Sep 2022, 11:43 am

There is a wealth of options for England's back row at present.
Still the common theme of ? with the centre pairings.
Eddie will stick with Farrell I am sure for the WC, most likely at 12.
But who fits that reserve 12 spot and is partnered at 13 - we've briefly seen a few options on tour

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Post by MichaelT Thu 01 Sep 2022, 12:05 pm

Apart from Ford, are there any long term injuries of England players or should everyone be around for the start of the season/ England summer players available after their stand down period?

For example I see Watson has played in pre-season for Leicester.

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Post by propdavid_london Thu 01 Sep 2022, 12:07 pm

Manu Tuilagi

Was Slade rested for the tour or was he injured?

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Post by MichaelT Thu 01 Sep 2022, 12:14 pm

Slade had surgery on a recurring issue. To me it felt like a lot of players were given the summer off to get things fixed, so hopefully we will have a pretty full cupboard for once when the internationals start.

Curry, Itoje and Underhill injuries during the summer were hopefully managed well too. I saw Curry left Australia straight away but the other two were on the weekly youtube video for the last game, looked like they stayed around so fingers crossed it was more cautionary.

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Post by propdavid_london Thu 01 Sep 2022, 1:08 pm

So first time in a long time that Eddie will have a pretty much full/fit squad to select from.
These Nov tests are going to be so interesting.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Thu 01 Sep 2022, 1:35 pm

MichaelT wrote:Apart from Ford, are there any long term injuries of England players or should everyone be around for the start of the season/ England summer players available after their stand down period?

For example I see Watson has played in pre-season for Leicester.

Watson played in both games but left the second one after about 6 mins, probably precautionary but not the best news.

Realistically we won't have much of an idea as to how fit the international contingent are until round three when they all comeback into contention for their clubs.

No Ford is certainly a significant loss. Puts a lot of pressure on Smith at 10 or reverting back to a duller attack with Farrell at 10.

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Post by Geordie Thu 01 Sep 2022, 1:50 pm

There could be some new faces if some of the younger lads continue their good performances. For example Murley the Quins winger looks a cracking player...a good start to the season will surely do him no harm...

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 01 Sep 2022, 2:15 pm

Lynagh should be back in contention shouldn't he? It'll be interesting to see who crops up as 3rd choice fly half with Ford out. You reckon he could just jump to someone like the other Smith?

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Post by Geordie Thu 01 Sep 2022, 2:43 pm

Yes Lynagh also...

I guess it all depends if Jones sees what he demand in a fly half...from any of the EQ 10s playing...should be an interesting season.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Thu 01 Sep 2022, 4:11 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Lynagh should be back in contention shouldn't he? It'll be interesting to see who crops up as 3rd choice fly half with Ford out. You reckon he could just jump to someone like the other Smith?

He'll probably just have Furbank in the squad and use Farrell to cover. That being said capping t'other Smith would be a good idea given he's dual qualified.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 01 Sep 2022, 4:57 pm

Jesus. I forgot about Furbank.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Thu 01 Sep 2022, 7:49 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Jesus. I forgot about Furbank.

I think we'd all like to forget about Furbank (in an England shirt anyway).

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Post by king_carlos Fri 02 Sep 2022, 12:41 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:So many options, really comes down to personal taste in a lot of cases. I'm guessing if you ran a poll on peoples preferred starting England team here there would perhaps only be 2 or 3 players which make every team.

Well thats the thing, we all do have our favorites, be it club bias or just player preference.
I think if we all named our ideal hypothetical full starting XV they would have many changes but I reckon the pool of players wouldn't actually be that huge at the moment?

1.Genge 2.George 3.Sinckler 4.Itoje 5.Hill 6.Lawes 7.Curry 8.Vunipola
9.JvP 10.Smith 11.May 12.Farrell 13.Tuilagi 14.Watson 15.Steward

That would probably be mine for instance. I imagine some would go with LCD and Marler but doubt those posters wouldn't still have Genge and George in the 23 for instance? Similar that some might still feel Lawes isn't a 6 but I think even those would have him in a 23?

This is why I keep saying that I actually think England have the depth in most position needed for a good RWC squad. I just worry about the game plan clicking and especially about the second row quality outside of Itoje.

Even centre I'm not as concerned about if this attacking structure consistently clicks. I really rate Farrell at 12, Marchant is a really good 13 and Porter was solid in Australia. If Manu is fit it's a bonus and Slade I personally wouldn't start at full strength but his very good defensive work at 13 and experience makes him a strong squad option.

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Post by Rugby Fan Fri 02 Sep 2022, 6:48 am

Nick Isiekwe is having an operation, which will keep him out for "several months".

https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/62755457


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Post by propdavid_london Fri 02 Sep 2022, 4:52 pm

There are so many options for Eddie -
If Cockanasinga can get some consistency of form then he is another weapon to use
Above mentioned Lynagh and Murly from Quins - young guys that have had great recent form.
Nowell has have a few highs and lows - but when on form is excellent (especially in areas that are unusual for a wing)
Sleightholm
Freeman
Potter
Porter
Marchant - unfairly dropped at the end of the tour I thought, and many more that we haven't had a proper look at too on the international stage.

I still think a fit and firing Odogwu should be looked at.
Quirk needs another look when fit, but JvP looks to have taken his chances.

Its a genuinely exciting time I think (and then Eddie will pick a completely random team) and I will be disappointed!

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