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Scotland Summer tests against Argentina

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George Carlin
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Post by BigGee Sat 9 Jul - 0:11

First topic message reminder :

So two more matches left on the summer tour for Scotland and we need to see a big improvement to take the series into a deciding leg, next weekend.

We will need to see a big improvement to achieve that and it will involve a working game plan from Toonie and buy in from the players and the skill and patience on their part to make it work.


There is an undeniable feel that Scotland are a team on the slide at the moment and nothing we have seen in the last few games has given us any signs that is not the case. This makes this match on saturday very important. Losing it and in particular losing it with a poor performance is really going to ask more questions about Toonie's future and where this group of players are heading.

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Post by tigertattie Sun 17 Jul - 6:42

Time for Blair to come off.

I’d also not have taken Cummings off. Gray needed to go
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Post by Heaf Sun 17 Jul - 6:44

Indiscipline costs Argentina again ...

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Post by tigertattie Sun 17 Jul - 6:46

How much would we need to pay Ritchie G to even consult for our line out?

Utter utter pish
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Post by Heaf Sun 17 Jul - 6:46

I think that may have been Argentina's last chance - fancy Scotland to score again now to settle it ...

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Post by BigGee Sun 17 Jul - 6:48

Big mistake from Price

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Post by BigGee Sun 17 Jul - 6:52

Well done Argentina, but boy did we throw that one away!

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Post by Heaf Sun 17 Jul - 6:53

OK so I got that wrong ...

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Post by Heaf Sun 17 Jul - 6:53

Great game - but not sure how Scotland lost that ...

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Post by tigertattie Sun 17 Jul - 6:54

Well down Argentina

Absolutely brilliant by them

Absolutely woeful by Scotland. Penalty in front of the posts to take it to 7 points and we kick to the corner with a lineout that’s been honking all day.

On field leadership needs to have a serious serious word.

We were 15 points up with 30 to go and we shot our selves in the foot.

Typical inconsistent Scotland.
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Post by TheMildlyFranticLlama Sun 17 Jul - 6:54

Ah merde. Had to be Boff who put the boot in too!

Got to say fair play to the pumas, they really stuck at it, well played

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Post by BigGee Sun 17 Jul - 6:55

A misfunctioning lineout and two terrible kicks from Price and Blairhorn (who otherwise played his best game at FH for Scotland)


Still can't close out games!

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Post by Duty281 Sun 17 Jul - 6:57

Terrible game management cost Scotland that one, they'll be bitterly disappointed. Argentina look the same as ever - some excellent attack and devil-may-care play, but a lot of basic errors and average defence.

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Post by tigertattie Sun 17 Jul - 6:57

BigGee wrote:Big mistake from Price

At least 14 points he cost us tonight.

At least

I’ve absolutely sick to death of how he seems undroppable. Not just for Scotland but Glasgow. He’s even worse than Finn for consistency.

Get rid. Just effin get rid
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Post by Heaf Sun 17 Jul - 6:59

Not playing White is perhaps not looking like a great call now ...

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Post by sensisball Sun 17 Jul - 6:59

Oh dear, defeat snatched from the jaws of victory.
3 wins out of 8 for the season so far, no pressure Toonie.

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Post by BigGee Sun 17 Jul - 7:00

Agree with Hoggy and JB

Why did we not take those three points!

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Post by bsando Sun 17 Jul - 7:01

Awesome win for Argentina, they stuck in there and stayed in touch. Well done to them!

Quite a strange test match in many ways. Argentina were making poor errors and the ill discipline was quite bad, but then Scotland seemed to just let them back into the game far too easily. Why George Horne wasn't subbed on for Price was an odd decision I thought.

Ultimately Argentina looked more hungry for the win. Scotland seemed to become far too casual in the final quarter.

A lot of lessons to learn from that match in terms of on field decision making.

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Post by bsando Sun 17 Jul - 7:01

BigGee wrote:Agree with Hoggy and JB

Why did we not take those three points!

Lunacy

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Post by BigGee Sun 17 Jul - 7:02

tigertattie wrote:
BigGee wrote:Big mistake from Price

At least 14 points he cost us tonight.

At least

I’ve absolutely sick to death of how he seems undroppable. Not just for Scotland but Glasgow. He’s even worse than Finn for consistency.

Get rid. Just effin get rid


Well he has got some genuine competition from White now. The crazy thing is that he left him out to give Horne some game time and then did not play him? If you don't trust Horne, then don't put him on the bench.

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Post by tigertattie Sun 17 Jul - 7:15

I’m just fed up of it

I really am

The first half was the best half we played all year. The first 10 mins of the second half was excellent also

But then we fell away. Completely and utterly fell away.

It’s our conditioning or our mental fragility and sadly I think it’s the latter. I’ve been saying for years we need a good sports psychologist. Either we need one or we need to replace the one we have.

Our brain farts cost us time and time again.
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Post by sensisball Sun 17 Jul - 8:50

Last quarter defence became very passive, allowing Argentina to carry well and set up their phase play.
Kinghorn was better in attack but his kicking from hand was generally poor. Almost every clearing kick gave the receiver at least 5 seconds to gather and attack. He was also limping for at least the last 15 and should have been subbed off.

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Post by sensisball Sun 17 Jul - 9:21

Nice touch that it was Bofelli who scored the winner and that his Edinburgh team mate Kinghorn "over chased" his defensive position so that he didn't need to attempt a tackle on the match winner.



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Post by RDW Sun 17 Jul - 9:28

Urgh that's a frustrating one. So much good undone in the last 20 minutes. We should have taken the points, but we were also very close to getting the try after a clever lineout play. Still not a good decision though!

Some learnings for me from this tour:

- Mcinally and Brown are probably on the way out, that was a good display from Ashman. We've got loads of depth at LH now and was pleasing to see Sebastian coming through, although he clearly wasn't trusted to see out this game. We have a lot of reliance on Fagerson still.

- We need more from our locks. High workrate is just the starting point for an international lock. The other home nation locks put game changing contributions in. Where's Gray's dominant physicality gone? Cummings' barnstorming carries? We've got several 7/10 locks (Gray, Gilchrist, Cummins, Skinner) - we need them to step up to 9/10 more often

- this was a coming of age tour for Darge, who was one of our best players. He'll face competition when Ritchie comes back but that's not bad thing. Between Ritchie, Watson, Darge and Fagerson our first choice back row is clear. Bradbury, Crosbie, Christie, Bayliss etc provide reasonable backup.

- we desperately needed to find backup to Price this tour and it feels like a missed opportunity. White had the best performance of any of the 9s but was dropped for this week. Price didn't have a good tour. It was a poor selection decision by Townsend

- Kinghorn! You can see in parts why Blair and Townsend are so excited about what he brings from 10, but that's still probably less often than the times he doesn't look like an international 10. Of course it's not his fault he's only had a season at 10, and I think we're too far down the path to give up on him, but he's currently not the answer. I'm willing to give him the time at Edinburgh, but he's not likely to start at 10 much up until the WC barring injuries to Russell and Hastings.

- Bennet has been another of the success stories, and I'd say the 13 shirt is his again to lose. 12 is still a problem position and again it's been a missed opportunity to try out Hutchinson in his best position. I suspect we're resigned to relying on a competent basher at 12 for the foreseeable.

- back 3 we've got plenty options and I'm not so concerned. I don't think Hogg is going to have any worries about someone taking his spot at 15 though.


To finish, I wonder if we would have won the series if Russell, Harris and Hogg had played? This is very much a subjective debate, but I suspect the answer to that question is it probably would have increased our chances.

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Post by sensisball Sun 17 Jul - 9:52

Not sure Harris would have helped. Bennett was brilliant in attack and pretty solid in defence. I actually think Hogg is on the slide. Too interested in his tats, new hair and shiny teeth. He has lost the top end change of pace that gave the opposition nightmares.
Ironically if Kinghorn was playing at the back he might have been able to put pressure of Hogg.
And it looks like Hogg will be first choice 15, Bennett will be relegated as soon as Harris is fit and Finn will start with Blair "they call me Mr Bean" Kinghorn as our back up 10. Hastings will be relegated to sharing water carrier duties along with Ross Thomson.
So, so depressing as will our inability to reach the QF's in France next autumn.

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Post by tigertattie Sun 17 Jul - 16:49

I’m very worried about the World Cup next year.

Not because I don’t think we’ll get out the group, that’s highly unlikely!

My fear is the SRU say the group was impossible with Ireland and SA in it and they give Townsend another crack
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Post by NeilyBroon Sun 17 Jul - 16:54

Well it's going to be a fun year watching Scotland limp through to the RWC to be torn a new one by Ireland and SA and probably upset by Tonga or Samoa to bomb out of the pool stages. At least Toonie will be gone after that. It can't be easy to be motivated in the current set up, especially when he refuses to trust certain players despite them not doing much wrong.

Despite this I do think at least some players have been blooded/redeemed this summer, they'll probably never play again mind. I expect the defensive inconsistencies will be blamed on Bennett and Hutchinson. BK will always be first choice fly half in waiting even if Hastings is fit. He's among Toonies anointed ones.

Toonie should have gone after the 6Ns. Opportunity missed!

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Post by NeilyBroon Sun 17 Jul - 17:01

tigertattie wrote:I’m very worried about the World Cup next year.

Not because I don’t think we’ll get out the group, that’s highly unlikely!

My fear is the SRU say the group was impossible with Ireland and SA in  it and they give Townsend another crack

I don't think they're THAT daft. They'll let his contract run out... Hopefully...

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Post by TheMildlyFranticLlama Sun 17 Jul - 18:27

BigGee wrote:

Well he has got some genuine competition from White now. The crazy thing is that he left him out to give Horne some game time and then did not play him? If you don't trust Horne, then don't put him on the bench.

You’re absolutely right there BG. Townsend specifically called it out before the game, that dropping White was the hardest call he had to make but that Horne deserved a shot. Then he leaves him on the bench Headscratch

That’s just pure selection incompetence. A change of SH could’ve turned the game as Price was making costly errors. Very poor coaching.

Kinghorn is a tricky one. We’ve seen at Edinburgh this season that if you invest in him and give him back to back game time, he improves significantly. He started out looking good against the weaker teams. By the end of the season he was putting in good performances against the stronger sides in the league. The only way we’re going to find out if he can truly be a quality international FH is if we give him time in the saddle to develop. But can we afford to make that investment at this level, with a limited amount of game time before the World Cup? It would seem a huge gamble to do so at the expense of other established options in Finn and Hastings, particularly as we could give him time at their expense only to find out he’s not able to develop to where he needs to be. I’d much rather be getting those minutes under Hastings belt at this stage to be honest!

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Post by RDW Sun 17 Jul - 18:40

I've said it before, but should we really be basing our cycle on the WC - particular the next one where we have the 2 best teams in the world in our group?

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Post by George Carlin Sun 17 Jul - 18:49

TheMildlyFranticLlama wrote:
BigGee wrote:

Well he has got some genuine competition from White now. The crazy thing is that he left him out to give Horne some game time and then did not play him? If you don't trust Horne, then don't put him on the bench.

You’re absolutely right there BG. Townsend specifically called it out before the game, that dropping White was the hardest call he had to make but that Horne deserved a shot. Then he leaves him on the bench Headscratch

That’s just pure selection incompetence. A change of SH could’ve turned the game as Price was making costly errors. Very poor coaching.

Kinghorn is a tricky one. We’ve seen at Edinburgh this season that if you invest in him and give him back to back game time, he improves significantly. He started out looking good against the weaker teams. By the end of the season he was putting in good performances against the stronger sides in the league. The only way we’re going to find out if he can truly be a quality international FH is if we give him time in the saddle to develop. But can we afford to make that investment at this level, with a limited amount of game time before the World Cup? It would seem a huge gamble to do so at the expense of other established options in Finn and Hastings, particularly as we could give him time at their expense only to find out he’s not able to develop to where he needs to be. I’d much rather be getting those minutes under Hastings belt at this stage to be honest!
Very good point, Mildly. In fact it's the ultimate point.

Do you invest in a player A who is playing slightly better than player B at the moment? Or do you look to develop player B, acknowledging that at their peak they are likely to be a better quality player in the medium to long term? Coaches are fecked if they do and buggered come world cup time if they don't. Ireland would probably still be beating the All Blacks with that overall squad but Farrell knows he won't win the trophy next year without Sexton. And Johnny S must be at least 78 years old by now.

I am not convinced by Townsend and I am not any less unconvinced after this tour. Interesting that the Lions we were leaving at home were all backline players. I don't think that the backline was our problem. The best thing the Scottish Tourism Authority can do for Scottish rugby is to get more young Saffer lads over here on holiday. Then in 18 years' time, our age grade players will magically be a lot bigger...
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Post by doctor_grey Sun 17 Jul - 20:36

I think the interesting thing here is that after three games there doesn't seem to be a lot between the teams. The Pumas are a fine squad. So maybe not the results everyone wanted, but this series had two good teams going at it hammer and tongs.

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Post by sensisball Sun 17 Jul - 22:07

Doc
I think what the Scotland fans find hard to take is that it's perpetually 1 step forward followed by at least 2 steps backwards.
The inconsistency in selection known as the "Toonie Tombola" keeps happening and forces us to play with one hand tied behind our backs.
How does it work: Player had a good game? Check. Okay drop him for a more senior player. (White dropped for Price)
Excellent inside centre? Check. Okay let's play Hutchison at fullback to allegedly improve our depth whilst putting little real pressure on Hogg.
Have we" the best player of his generation" who is a fullback?Check. Let's try and turn Mr Bean into an international stand off and ignore other appropriate alternatives ( Hastings during 6 N's and Thomson on tour)
Do we have an excellent middle lineout jumper who is playing and leading well? Check. Okay drop him completely for the Gray man who is having his worst season since turning pro.
It goes on and on and never appears to improve.

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Post by BigGee Mon 18 Jul - 0:13

https://twitter.com/AlistairPrice/status/1548652740477419520


Strange tweet for Ali Price to put out. Nothing to be gained by it and lots to lose.


Strikes me that it is someone under a bit of pressure. It would have been the best plan all round if he had also had a summer off, he looks like he could have used the break. I understand why Toonie took him, none of our other SHs really having much experience, but that in itself was a selection issue that ultimately Toonie is responsible for.

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Post by tigertattie Mon 18 Jul - 1:25

He’s meant to be the pro.

All he’s doing is poking the bear with that. And it wasn’t just 80 mins of mince from him. He’s been crap in many a game.

The media trainers will need to have a word with him. Or the sports psychologist if we have one
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Post by George Carlin Mon 18 Jul - 1:36

tigertattie wrote:He’s meant to be the pro.

All he’s doing is poking the bear with that. And it wasn’t just 80 mins of mince from him. He’s been crap in many a game.  

The media trainers will need to have a word with him. Or the sports psychologist if we have one
I would settle for correcting the mangled grammar and spelling.
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Post by tigertattie Mon 18 Jul - 1:49

George Carlin wrote:
tigertattie wrote:He’s meant to be the pro.

All he’s doing is poking the bear with that. And it wasn’t just 80 mins of mince from him. He’s been crap in many a game.  

The media trainers will need to have a word with him. Or the sports psychologist if we have one
I would settle for correcting the mangled grammar and spelling.

Well, we’ll leave that to jimbo.

At least price isn’t paid to work with words.
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Post by Anglobraveheart Mon 18 Jul - 2:44

George Carlin wrote:
tigertattie wrote:He’s meant to be the pro.

All he’s doing is poking the bear with that. And it wasn’t just 80 mins of mince from him. He’s been crap in many a game.  

The media trainers will need to have a word with him. Or the sports psychologist if we have one
I would settle for correcting the mangled grammar and spelling.

Laugh
Love that George, very funny clap clap clap clap

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Post by George Carlin Mon 18 Jul - 2:54

Anglobraveheart wrote:
George Carlin wrote:
tigertattie wrote:He’s meant to be the pro.

All he’s doing is poking the bear with that. And it wasn’t just 80 mins of mince from him. He’s been crap in many a game.  

The media trainers will need to have a word with him. Or the sports psychologist if we have one
I would settle for correcting the mangled grammar and spelling.

Laugh
Love that George, very funny clap clap clap clap
As Jim would say, there's a big difference between knowing your Poopie and knowing you're Poopie.
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Post by tigertattie Mon 18 Jul - 3:41

Effin LOL.

Finn has waded into the Twitter bomb lol
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Post by BigGee Mon 18 Jul - 4:19

https://twitter.com/finn_russell/status/1548710514259382276


For those not on twitter!


Finn being the voice of reason, maybe the summer off has done him some good!

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Post by Anglobraveheart Mon 18 Jul - 5:35

BigGee wrote:https://twitter.com/finn_russell/status/1548710514259382276


For those not on twitter!


Finn being the voice of reason, maybe the summer off has done him some good!

Looks like it's been deleted. What did he say?

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Post by BigGee Mon 18 Jul - 5:36

He told him to calm down!

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Post by BigGee Mon 18 Jul - 5:37

Maybe not the best of mates any more?

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Post by RDW Mon 18 Jul - 7:17

And I bet Townsend was thinking his season of dramas was over.

What did Finn actually say?

I'm sure it was meant to be tongue in cheek to his mate as opposed to any actual criticism

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Post by BigGee Mon 18 Jul - 7:25

RDW wrote:And I bet Townsend was thinking his season of dramas was over.

What did Finn actually say?

I'm sure it was meant to be tongue in cheek to his mate as opposed to any actual criticism


Well he obviously though twice about it, or someone close to him had a word to make him backtrack.

Either way, it is just another string to the polemic that seems to continue in Scottish Rugby.

Piry they all just can't seem to concentrate on the game!

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Post by jimbopip Mon 18 Jul - 18:20

Morning peeps Hug

young Aldi Price seems like a man who's hurting....a lot. It's never a good idea to argue with misinformed, humourless ne'erdowells on social media especially when you are reacting emotionally rather than logically. Which is why I never mention FES ot tigertattie on here.

We all loved the footage of Aldi sitting in his car outside Scotstoun and going ballistic when he heard he was going on the Lions tour. Well, this is the other side of that coin. He'll be hurting and he needed to get it out.
Not the smartest thing he's ever done but in terms of Glasgow players, or Glaswegians in general, not the daftest thing either. Ryan Wilson set the bar pretty high for the Warriors and GC's mildly racist Uncle Dougie still can't enter the city centre after sunset.

Finn as the voice of reason? laughing

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Post by BigGee Mon 18 Jul - 18:31

https://twitter.com/chrismurraylaw/status/1548746625635721216


Someone a bit more technically savy than myself has maanged to get a screenshot before it was deleted!

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Post by NeilyBroon Mon 18 Jul - 19:27

Tbh just looks like a light bit of patter from Finn. Maybe a reference about something that was said to him while he had his dramas. Looks like the kind of sarcastic remarks said in a normal workplace.

Regardless of what's been said or not, Price is on poor form atm and we have better alternatives. Velacott is injured isn't he? I think sending dobie abroad is a very savy move, he really needs to kick on next season. White has been a hidden gem and deserves more gametime. Horne has lost his way a little at club but showed enough on summer tour to get a crack on. He should have left Glasgow really when he got the opportunity, maybe he still will have an opportunity to. I expect price won't move on until international retirement.

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Post by jimbopip Mon 18 Jul - 19:39

BigGee wrote:https://twitter.com/chrismurraylaw/status/1548746625635721216


Someone a bit more technically savy than myself has maanged to get a screenshot before it was deleted!

I was prepared to let this pass mad but then Neilybroon repeated the error. furious

Penny Mordaunt pretends she was in the navy, her uniform was splashed with gravy.

I could have grafted like a navvy but, thankfully I was too savvy.

I Doh  hate it when you guys bring out the pedant in me. Do you do it deliberately? steam

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Post by BigGee Mon 18 Jul - 19:41

jimbopip wrote:
BigGee wrote:https://twitter.com/chrismurraylaw/status/1548746625635721216


Someone a bit more technically savy than myself has maanged to get a screenshot before it was deleted!

I was prepared to let this pass mad but then Neilybroon repeated the error. furious

Penny Mordaunt pretends she was in the navy, her uniform was splashed with gravy.

I could have grafted like a navvy but, thankfully I was too savvy.

I Doh  hate it when you guys bring out the pedant in me. Do you do it deliberately? steam



I will consider myself b*llocked!

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