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Scotland Summer tests against Argentina

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George Carlin
NeilyBroon
Hazel Sapling
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R!skysports
RDW
Heuer27
alive555
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TheMildlyFranticLlama
bsando
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Post by BigGee Fri 08 Jul 2022, 3:11 pm

First topic message reminder :

So two more matches left on the summer tour for Scotland and we need to see a big improvement to take the series into a deciding leg, next weekend.

We will need to see a big improvement to achieve that and it will involve a working game plan from Toonie and buy in from the players and the skill and patience on their part to make it work.


There is an undeniable feel that Scotland are a team on the slide at the moment and nothing we have seen in the last few games has given us any signs that is not the case. This makes this match on saturday very important. Losing it and in particular losing it with a poor performance is really going to ask more questions about Toonie's future and where this group of players are heading.

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Post by BigGee Sat 09 Jul 2022, 9:34 pm

That's the game!

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Post by TheMildlyFranticLlama Sat 09 Jul 2022, 9:35 pm

Nice line from SJ to be fair. Nice to see him do something

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Post by bsando Sat 09 Jul 2022, 9:39 pm

Amazing defence today. That's what fans wanted to see

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Post by BigGee Sat 09 Jul 2022, 9:47 pm

We are riding our luck with the Argy touch downs tonight!

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Post by tigertattie Sat 09 Jul 2022, 9:49 pm

What does blairhorn bring? Fell off that tackle like Boris Johnson
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Post by tigertattie Sat 09 Jul 2022, 9:56 pm

tigertattie wrote:Sorry Gee but no.

We dont have a snowballs chance in Edinburgh today (23 degrees, wtf)

Now I’ve said that we’ll probably win now. I do miss the days when we wrote off our own chances then when we lost it was expected, if we won, it was magical.

Ha. My cunning plan worked!!!
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Post by TheMildlyFranticLlama Sat 09 Jul 2022, 9:58 pm

What a turnaround in the second half. Much much better performance, forward pack particularly. We found our defence again at last. I said Hamish should’ve been left at home and rested but thank god he wasn’t, absolutely led the charge from the front as he always does. That’s a great result, well played boys. Clean NH sweep too

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Post by BigGee Sat 09 Jul 2022, 10:03 pm

Some good performances there

Mish MoM on his 50th cap, well he would wouldn't he!

Darge and Fagerson were good as well and the 2 OS strategy worked well

Was very impressed with Ben White as well, he looks comfortable at this level

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Post by RDW Sun 10 Jul 2022, 1:05 am

Well a much improved performance but again frustrating that we have to have such a poor performance to instigate a response.

Not getting too carried away as Argentina were pretty woeful - probably worse than we were last week. They also blew something like 4 chances on our line - great defence at time from us, granted.

We are learning some things though:

Ben White put in a great performance and should start next week. Price has played something ridiculous like 80% of minutes for Scotland in the last 2 years and we desperately need an alternative. Ben looks good to provide that.

Sebastian - where did he come from?? He looks a wee fat lad who in the past I didn't think was pro level never mind international, then this season he's absolutely flourished for Scarlets and looks at home at international. A real piece of luck that he's come good, as we were really looking in trouble.

Darge is Watson 2.0 - not sure their combo will work against the big dogs but it's definitely an option

Fagerson may not be the colossus at 8 that were crying out for but you can't doubt he's first choice.

Kinghorn...... he'll give Toonie plenty to ponder over the summer. He again did some mad things and his teammates won't be thanking him for some of those passes.


Really feel for Kyle Rowe! With Hutchinson and Rowe injured it'll probably mean Kinghorn back to 15 next week.

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Post by BigGee Sun 10 Jul 2022, 7:58 am

It's a shame we are now not likely to see the Bennett - Hutch combo at centre on this tour. Which would surely have happened at some stage on this tour, if not in the second half yesterday..

Toonie said he is planning to mix the team up again next week, give others a chance.

Presumably we will see Smith and Mclean next week and maybe George Horne.

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Post by RDW Sun 10 Jul 2022, 9:24 am

A series win would be nice but I'd also like us to give other players a shot, as really it doesn't count for much.

1 Bhatti (earned a start)
2 Turner
3 Sebastian
4 Gilchrist
5 Cummings
6 Crosbie
7 Darge
8 Bradbury

9 White
10 Thomson
11 VDM
12 Tuipolotu
13 Bennett
14 Graham
15 Smith

Subs - Sutherland, Ashman, Fagerson, Young, Christie (give him at least 20), Horne, Kinghorn, McLean

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Post by BigGee Sun 10 Jul 2022, 2:17 pm

I would have Christie start over Bradbury!

He has looked drcent in his cameos

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Post by jimbopip Sun 10 Jul 2022, 2:22 pm

No reflection on Flounder's skill as a selector but form what the players said in post match interviews they seem focussed on winning next week rather than experimenting with selections.

The pack will probably be unchanged.
In the backs the big decision will be Blarehorn at 10 and Ollie Smith at 15 OR Thompson at 10 and Blarehorn at 15. I think the former is more risk averse.

I haven't seen last night's game; how did Blarehorn do? How did Thompson look when he came on? What happened to Rowe?

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Post by BigGee Sun 10 Jul 2022, 2:49 pm

Blairhorn was not great unfortunately

I've been willing to give him benefit of the doubt but now with Hutch injured, an easy out is to move him back to FB and start Thomoson, who did ok and bench Smith

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Post by jimbopip Sun 10 Jul 2022, 4:13 pm

BigGee wrote:Blairhorn was not great unfortunately

I've been unwilling to give him benefit of the doubt but now with Hutch injured, an easy out is to move him back to FB and start Thomoson, who did ok and bench Smith

Sadly, it works either way.

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Post by RDW Sun 10 Jul 2022, 11:24 pm

jimbopip wrote:No reflection on Flounder's skill as a selector but form what the players said in post match interviews they seem focussed on winning next week rather than experimenting with selections.

The pack will probably be unchanged.  
In the backs the big decision will be Blarehorn at 10 and Ollie Smith at 15 OR Thompson at 10 and Blarehorn at 15. I think the former is more risk averse.

I haven't seen last night's game; how did Blarehorn do? How did Thompson look when he came on? What happened to Rowe?

Don't get me wrong I'd like to win the series too but if we don't play some of these players now they may not get a lot of chances before the WC. I'm not that fussed though and if we go fully balls out I hope we get the win for it.

Rowe's injury was really innocuous - he jumped over the Argie player that had dived over for their try and landed awkwardly, buggering his knee. And the try didn't even stand so was all for nothing!

Biggee I'd like to see more of Christie too but he's not at an International 8 IMO. If he's on the bench again I hope he gets a decent chunk of time.

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Post by BigGee Mon 11 Jul 2022, 7:46 am

For Christie to start, one of the 2 OSs would have to step down. That is possible, if he really is going to mix up the team again.

It's going to be an interesting selection this week. We could see a proper Tombola for the first time in a while.

Maybe that is no bad thing and will keep everyone on their toes for their shirts. There has been no consequence for players not performing in recent times.

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Post by RDW Mon 11 Jul 2022, 8:07 am

BigGee wrote:For Christie to start, one of the 2 OSs would have to step down. That is possible, if he really is going to mix up the team again.

It's going to be an interesting selection this week. We could see a proper Tombola for the first time in a while.

Maybe that is no bad thing and will keep everyone on their toes for their shirts. There has been no consequence for players not performing in recent times.

I guess the contrary to that is what message does it say it he drops players after they do play well!

Oh to be an international rugby coach.

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Post by bsando Mon 11 Jul 2022, 10:11 am

RDW wrote:
jimbopip wrote:No reflection on Flounder's skill as a selector but form what the players said in post match interviews they seem focussed on winning next week rather than experimenting with selections.

The pack will probably be unchanged.  
In the backs the big decision will be Blarehorn at 10 and Ollie Smith at 15 OR Thompson at 10 and Blarehorn at 15. I think the former is more risk averse.

I haven't seen last night's game; how did Blarehorn do? How did Thompson look when he came on? What happened to Rowe?

Don't get me wrong I'd like to win the series too but if we don't play some of these players now they may not get a lot of chances before the WC. I'm not that fussed though and if we go fully balls out I hope we get the win for it.

Rowe's injury was really innocuous - he jumped over the Argie player that had dived over for their try and landed awkwardly, buggering his knee. And the try didn't even stand so was all for nothing!

Biggee I'd like to see more of Christie too but he's not at an International 8 IMO. If he's on the bench again I hope he gets a decent chunk of time.

I saw him put in one dominant hit in defence and he seems a very vocal player which is probably a good thing for Scotland. If Scotland play well once again and start better then he may get a chance to sun in earlier to rest Watson and Darge could swap to openside. Saying that Crosbie probably deserves a second chance so interesting calls to be made. Considering how effective Darge, Watson Fagerson was they should probably start again.

With Rowe and Hutchinson out I’m guessing Kinghorn will start with Thompson benching and McLean and Tuipilotu coming into the match day 23.

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Post by RDW Mon 11 Jul 2022, 1:08 pm

Could the Scotland team watch this on repeat?

https://twitter.com/bernardjackman/status/1546083956491182080?t=0EdsQDM8Atc2EvOob9bz7Q&s=19

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Post by RDW Mon 11 Jul 2022, 10:25 pm

Been a few comments from players about how close the group is in this tour, and Watson even said in his 50th cap presentation that it's the tightest squad he's ever been involved in.

We obviously can't read too much into it, but we did wonder when the squad was announced how the squad dynamic would change without the dominant characters in Hogg and Russell (and the drama they seem to create!). I bet Townsend has been a lot more relaxed too not having to manage Finn, both on the pitch and as a character.

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Post by R!skysports Tue 12 Jul 2022, 7:53 am

RDW wrote:Been a few comments from players about how close the group is in this tour, and Watson even said in his 50th cap presentation that it's the tightest squad he's ever been involved in.

We obviously can't read too much into it, but we did wonder when the squad was announced how the squad dynamic would change without the dominant characters in Hogg and Russell (and the drama they seem to create!). I bet Townsend has been a lot more relaxed too not having to manage Finn, both on the pitch and as a character.

I have always felt that Finn is actually holding the development of this team back. For all the magic moments he produces for us, there are usually 3-4 ones that put us in a more difficulty position. He is world class a club player, but has rarely (consistently) brought this across to the national team. Basing our strategy on one person who is so hot and cold is not ideal and it seems that we have missed the chance to develop a more settled 10

Added to that, that it seems he is a toxic character for the squad dynamic, I would be fine leaving him out the next 6 nations so we can actually give a real chance to another 10

It won't happen, but I would be happy for it to happen


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Post by BigGee Tue 12 Jul 2022, 8:14 am

Probably the biggest disappointment on this tour has been the unavailability of Hastings, who had the chance to put down a bit of a marker and really start to challenge Finn for that starting spot.

Still, if we go on to win this series and word gets back what an enjoyable tour it has been, without the dramas that have plagued the squad of late, it might at least cause the ones that stayed at home to think a bit!

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Post by TheMildlyFranticLlama Tue 12 Jul 2022, 9:00 am

I agree, I think the chat about the group being super close is potentially the best outcome we could’ve got from this tour. It’ll mean the established characters who have sat it out going back into an environment that has moved on, and hopefully breaks up any sense they’ve had of being overly comfortable or being the big dogs within the team environment.

I’m hoping it’ll be a bit of a kick up Hoggy and Finn’s behinds that it isn’t their team, and nobody is bigger than the team. That can only be beneficial going forward. Let’s see how it plays out when they return to the fold!

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Post by TheMildlyFranticLlama Tue 12 Jul 2022, 9:17 am

Mish’s reign of tackling terror has come to an end! https://twitter.com/hamishwatson7/status/1546567720707280897?s=21&t=wPLw6C6KWGgliInjgQ4csw  Shocked

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Post by RDW Tue 12 Jul 2022, 9:36 am

TheMildlyFranticLlama wrote:Mish’s reign of tackling terror has come to an end! https://twitter.com/hamishwatson7/status/1546567720707280897?s=21&t=wPLw6C6KWGgliInjgQ4csw  Shocked

Is Hamish missing a tackle not a harbinger of the apocalypse?

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Post by BigGee Tue 12 Jul 2022, 9:37 am

TheMildlyFranticLlama wrote:Mish’s reign of tackling terror has come to an end! https://twitter.com/hamishwatson7/status/1546567720707280897?s=21&t=wPLw6C6KWGgliInjgQ4csw  Shocked


Disgraceful- he should be dropped Very Happy

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Post by RDW Tue 12 Jul 2022, 12:55 pm

Under 20s finish a sorry campaign with a 41-24 loss to Ireland. Not a bad result in the end as after 15 minutes looked like it was gonna be way worse!

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Post by Highland Shaun Wed 13 Jul 2022, 12:04 am

What I would like is Mr Russell dropped in November and Hastings and Fin Smith as our 10 options but I am fairly certain that WILL NOT happen because GT is certain Fin isn't ready for International rugby yet but if he doesn't get in quick, Mr Jones will pounce Sad.

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Post by Hazel Sapling Wed 13 Jul 2022, 1:22 pm

I think we have a tendency to go hot and cold on Russell. He is still by far the best Scottish FH of the Six Nations era. His behaviour has left a bit to be desired and his mentality for top tier international rugby has not translated well under Townsend.

Part of the problem is that Townsend has a habit of leaving him on for the full 80 rather than pulling him off 10 minutes after half if it is not working.

Townsend has not really used the depth we have developed at club level and trusted substitutes to make an impact at many positions in the backs.


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Post by RDW Wed 13 Jul 2022, 1:28 pm

I've championed Finn a lot on here in the past, countering the 'maverick' claims by saying his kicking game has become genuinely world class, he's a good defender and has learned how to run a game etc etc

That was true from around 2017-2019 and 2020-2021, but there's no doubt he's had an absolutely rotten run of form for Scotland post Lions tour.

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Post by BigGee Wed 13 Jul 2022, 1:37 pm

I don't see any reason to drop Finn, he still remains our best FH.

However I don't think it is a bad thing that he and everyone else now knows that we do have alternatives. We have heard rumours and to some extent witnessed that he can be a disruptive influence on the squad and if he can't or won't be a decent team player in the future, then it could come to that.

He had a rotten season last year, with maybe some mitigation because of the Lions tour, but maybe did not help himself either by not taking great physical care of himself either.

At his age, if he wants his career to go on into his 30s, he is going to have do better on that front.


Let's hope he has had a restful summer and settles down in the autumn to play some good rugby.

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Post by BigGee Wed 13 Jul 2022, 1:45 pm

Anyway, moving on from Finn, team should be out tomorrow so time for a punt at it I think we might get a few changes:


1, Sutherland
2. Ashman
3. Sebastian
4. Gilchrist
5. Cummings
6. Christie
7. Watson
8. Fagerson M
9. White
10. Thompson
11. VDM
12. Tuipolutu
13. Bennett
14. Graham
15. Kinghorn

Subs:

Schoeman
Turner
Fagerson Z
Gray J
Darge
Price
Smith
McLean

Now that would be a proper Toonie Tombola, vintage Glasgow around 2016!

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Post by RDW Wed 13 Jul 2022, 10:16 pm

I've gone full circle and reckon he should and will pick his strongest available team - all the other home nations are going for a series win and we should too!

Of course that doesn't mean we can't do a bit of rotation, particularly as we don't actually know what that best 15 is just now.

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Post by NeilyBroon Thu 14 Jul 2022, 10:49 am

So Fraser dingdong still hasn't been selected in the third Australia test for England. If I were Toonie I'd be ringing his agent suggesting we have good opportunities at IC if he wants it!

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Post by BigGee Thu 14 Jul 2022, 12:19 pm

Scotland team to face Argentina at The Estadio Único Madre de Ciudades, Santiago Del Estero, live on Sky Sports, Saturday 16 July - kick-off 8.10pm BST.

15. Ollie Smith - Glasgow Warriors - uncapped
14. Rufus McLean - Glasgow Warriors - 2 caps
13. Mark Bennett - Edinburgh Rugby - 26 caps
12. Sione Tuipulotu - Glasgow Warriors - 6 caps
11. Duhan van der Merwe - Worcester Warriors – 18 caps
10. Blair Kinghorn - Edinburgh Rugby - 33 caps
9. Ali Price - Glasgow Warriors (Vice-Captain) - 53 caps
1. Rory Sutherland - Worcester Warriors – 19 caps
2. Ewan Ashman - Sale Sharks – 3 caps
3. Zander Fagerson - Glasgow Warriors - 49 caps
4. Scott Cummings - Glasgow Warriors - 22 caps
5. Jonny Gray - Exeter Chiefs (Vice-Captain) - 68 caps
6. Rory Darge - Glasgow Warriors - 6 caps
7. Hamish Watson - Edinburgh Rugby (Captain) - 50 caps
8. Matt Fagerson - Glasgow Warriors - 23 caps

Replacements

16. Dave Cherry - Edinburgh Rugby - 6 caps
17. Pierre Schoeman - Edinburgh Rugby - 11 caps
18. Javan Sebastian - Scarlets - 3 caps
19. Glen Young - Edinburgh Rugby - uncapped
20. Andy Christie - Saracens - 2 caps
21. George Horne - Glasgow Warriors - 17 caps
22. Ross Thompson - Glasgow Warriors - 2 caps
23. Sam Johnson - Glasgow Warriors - 26 caps


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Post by BigGee Thu 14 Jul 2022, 12:22 pm

Well I was not to far out with my team!

Debut for Smith and first start for Ashman, Glen Young to debut off the bench.


Darcy seem to be injured and Gilchrist rotated out for JG and Cummings, who on paper should be our best second row and is the right combo of a workhorse and a carrier.

I like the look of the team and will be fascinated as to how it goes.

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Post by RDW Thu 14 Jul 2022, 12:25 pm

The Tombola is back!

Would have given White another go but excited to see what that team can do otherwise.

Also, anyone else find it weird that Sutherland and Duhan are basically the same number of caps? Shows how much Sutherland has been injured

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Post by bsando Thu 14 Jul 2022, 12:41 pm

I’d expect a response from Argentina. They must be hurting after last weeks showing and blown chances. Could be a much tighter game.

Good looking pack but not sure how that backline will get on. I’m sure Tuipilotu will be eager to impress I just hope he can link up well with Bennet and kinghorn.

Third time lucky for a good start? Or will it be another second half recovery?

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Post by sensisball Thu 14 Jul 2022, 1:33 pm

Gray starting and the uncapped Young on the bench weakens the second row.
Not sure if Argentina have Lavanini available, but if he selected ( and doesn't get binned) he could dominate the middle of the lineout and bring a lot of power to the scrum .
Tuipoloto starting at 12, outside Blairhorn and inside Bennett is also a bit of a gamble. Will he be able to handle BK's random passing as well as Johnson did?
The last time Price, Tuipoloto, McLean and Smith played together they were being eviscerated by Leinster, hope they go better on Saturday!

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Post by bsando Fri 15 Jul 2022, 10:13 am

It sounds an offensive thing to say considering they’re a club team but Leinster are a much tougher side than Argentina. So you’d hope those players can do a lot better this time around.

An exciting mix of players for the decider. Despite the positive scoreline last weekend it could still end in a series defeat and a lot of talking points heading into next season. But this season has uncovered some great young players who may yet play a crucial role next season.

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Post by jimbopip Fri 15 Jul 2022, 11:17 am

I think it's an excellent selectio: more calculated than "Thank you Mr Tombola".

Shooey and Bhatti have done well, so the pressure will be on Sutherland to perfor.
Ashman will have been desperate for a start; especially watching the scrum come out on top last week. He'll be raring to go tomorrow.
The big positive for me last week was the way the pack made lots of ground in open play; attacking space on the fringes rather than looking for pick and goes round the corner . GG and Principal both had good games and Ickle Jonny needs to stand up and be counted. Conversely, that is the type of gameplan Cummings excels at so he should have a "rerr terr" as they say.
Blarehorn is being given another chance and should be feeling confident. Let's hope he repays Toonie's trust.
I would have liked to see us get the ball wider more often last week, let's hope Titman and VDM get the ball early and often.

A win tomorrow will instal us as surefire favourites for the World Cup.

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Post by George Carlin Fri 15 Jul 2022, 6:18 pm

jimbopip wrote:I think it's an excellent selectio: more calculated than "Thank you Mr Tombola".

Shooey and Bhatti have done well, so the pressure will be on Sutherland to perfor.
Ashman will have been desperate for a start; especially watching the scrum come out on top last week. He'll be raring to go tomorrow.
The big positive for me last week was the way the pack made lots of ground in open play; attacking space on the fringes rather than looking for pick and goes round the corner . GG and Principal both had good games and Ickle Jonny needs to stand up and be counted. Conversely, that is the type of gameplan Cummings excels at so he should have a "rerr terr" as they say.
Blarehorn is being given another chance and should be feeling confident. Let's hope he repays Toonie's trust.
I would have liked to see us get the ball wider more often last week, let's hope Titman and VDM get the ball early and often.

A win tomorrow will instal us as surefire favourites for the World Cup.

Oh how true James. How true.

An interesting selection. Adding Ollie Smith is a little like when they put Opal Fruits in Christmas selection boxes alongside Mars and Snickers. Seems completely wrong but when it's right there in front of you, you realise that you might quite like it.
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Post by jimbopip Fri 15 Jul 2022, 7:43 pm

Actually GC, I think it will be more like the time time I took MrsPip into a trendy cocktail bar in Brighton. Herself had her usual TiaMaria In A BlackMariah ; dimpled jug handled pint glass half filled with Mackeson's sweet stout then topped up brimful with Tia Maria.The Black Maria usually arrives after the fourth one.
I perused the menu and asked for the Ginger Rum Punch. Again pint glass, lots of ice, two measure of Malibu and a spiced rum ...and then... a... ginger nut biscuit to garnish.
I have seen the future.
Ollie Smith will be our ginger nut.

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Post by BigGee Fri 15 Jul 2022, 8:05 pm

jimbopip wrote:Actually GC, I  think it will be more like the time time I took MrsPip into a trendy cocktail bar in Brighton.  Herself had her usual TiaMaria In A BlackMariah ; dimpled jug handled pint glass half filled with Mackeson's sweet stout then topped up brimful with Tia Maria.The Black Maria usually arrives after the fourth one.
I perused the menu and asked for the Ginger Rum Punch. Again pint glass, lots of ice, a
measure of Malibu and a spiced rum ...and then... a... ginger nut biscuit to garnish.
I have seen the future.
Ollie Smith will be our ginger nut.


That makes me even more convinced that i made the right choice in choosing never to visit a trendy cocktail bar!

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Post by RDW Fri 15 Jul 2022, 11:03 pm

jimbopip wrote:Actually GC, I  think it will be more like the time time I took MrsPip into a trendy cocktail bar in Brighton.  Herself had her usual TiaMaria In A BlackMariah ; dimpled jug handled pint glass half filled with Mackeson's sweet stout then topped up brimful with Tia Maria.The Black Maria usually arrives after the fourth one.
I perused the menu and asked for the Ginger Rum Punch. Again pint glass, lots of ice, two measure of Malibu and a spiced rum ...and then... a... ginger nut biscuit to garnish.
I have seen the future.
Ollie Smith will be our ginger nut.

Was this a 1980s themed cocktail bar?

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Post by Highland Shaun Sat 16 Jul 2022, 12:21 am

Your making me peckish Jimbo lol but a win tomorrow night and the drinks (I'm a Strongbow or Strawberry Koppaberg guy lol) will be flowing Smile.

It would also shut the Townsend doubters up until after the next 6Ns as I'm fairly certain not many will expect to beat New Zealand in the autumn.

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Post by George Carlin Sat 16 Jul 2022, 10:33 am

I was in Brighton 3 weeks ago.

Quite rough but presumably lots of fun if you’re 19 and trying to launch your alternative university personality as a woke musician with a colourful selection of bi-curious, vegan, professionally offended friends.
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Post by tigertattie Sat 16 Jul 2022, 10:41 am

Highland Shaun wrote:Your making me peckish Jimbo lol but a win tomorrow night and the drinks (I'm a Strongbow or Strawberry Koppaberg guy lol) will be flowing Smile.

It would also shut the Townsend doubters up until after the next 6Ns as I'm fairly certain not many will expect to beat New Zealand in the autumn.

The World Cup where we could be facing the number 1 and number 2 ranked teams in the world on our group.

Oh the joys
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Post by BigGee Sat 16 Jul 2022, 10:47 am

It does beg the question as to why they draw the WC so far in advance?

Thinking more about SA and Ireland rsther than us, who will likely struggle to qualify whichever group they are in.

One of those 2 is likely to get a very tough quarter final!

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