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URC Season 2022/23

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No 7&1/2
neilthom7
LeinsterFan4life
PhilBB
Pot Hale
geoff999rugby
thebandwagonsociety
Kingshu
profitius
Brendan
RiscaGame
Oakdene
mikey_dragon
LordDowlais
18 posters

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Post by LordDowlais Fri 29 Jul 2022, 11:36 am

Fixtures out for the coming season:-

United Rugby Championship schedule 2022/23
Round one
September16/17/18

Benetton v Glasgow

Cardiff v Munster

Zebre v Leinster

Scarlets v Ospreys

Edinburgh v Dragons

Ulster v Connacht

February3/4

Stormers v Sharks

Lions v Bulls

Round two
September23/24/25

Zebre v Sharks

Glasgow v Cardiff

Leinster v Benetton

Scarlets v Ulster

Bulls v Edinburgh

Stormers v Connacht

Ospreys v Lions

Dragons v Munster

Round three
September 30/October 1/2

Cardiff v Lions

Ulster v Leinster

Stormers v Edinburgh

Bulls v Connacht

Ospreys v Glasgow

Munster v Zebre

Benetton v Scarlets

Dragons v Sharks

Round four
October7/8/9

Connacht v Munster

Edinburgh v Lions

Zebre v Stormers

Leinster v Sharks

Scarlets v Cardiff

Glasgow v Bulls

Ulster v Ospreys

Benetton v Dragons

Round five
October14/15/16

Ospreys v Stormers

Munster v Bulls

Lions v Ulster

Sharks v Glasgow

Edinburgh v Benetton

Cardiff v Dragons

Scarlets v Zebre,

Connacht v Leinster

Round six
October21/22/23

Benetton v Bulls

Connacht v Scarlets

Zebre v Edinburgh

Lions v Glasgow

Sharks v Ulster

Cardiff v Stormers

Leinster v Munster

Dragons v Ospreys

Round seven
October28/29/30

Scarlets v Leinster

Glasgow v Benetton

Munster v Ulster

Dragons v Zebre

Ospreys v Connacht

Cardiff v Edinburgh

February10/11

Bulls v Sharks

Lions v Stormers

Round eight
November25/26/27

Stormers v Scarlets

Ulster v Zebre

Bulls v Ospreys

Benetton v Edinburgh

Leinster v Glasgow

Munster v Connacht

Lions v Dragons

Sharks v Cardiff

Round nine
December2/3/4

Sharks v Ospreys

Edinburgh v Munster

Stormers v Dragons

Zebre v Glasgow

Connacht v Benetton.

Bulls v Cardiff

Leinster v Ulster

Lions v Scarlets

Round 10
December23/24/26

Sharks v Lions

Stormers v Bulls

Glasgow v Edinburgh

Benetton v Zebre

Connacht v Ulster

Ospreys v Scarlets

Munster v Leinster

Dragons v Cardiff

Round 11
December 31/January 1

Edinburgh v Glasgow

Zebre v Benetton

Sharks v Bulls

Stormers v Lions

Cardiff v Ospreys

Scarlets v Dragons

Ulster v Munster

Leinster v Connacht

Round 12
January6/7/8

Munster v Lions

Dragons v Bulls

Benetton v Ulster

Glasgow v Stormers

Cardiff v Scarlets

Connacht v Sharks

Ospreys v Leinster

Edinburgh v Zebre

Round 13
January27/28/29

Ulster v Stormers

Scarlets v Bulls

Benetton v Munster

Dragons v Glasgow

Leinster v Cardiff

Edinburgh v Sharks

Connacht v Lions

Zebre v Ospreys

Round 14
February17/18/19

Glasgow v Ulster

Munster v Ospreys

Lions v Sharks

Bulls v Stormers

Zebre v Connacht

Scarlets v Edinburgh

Cardiff v Benetton

Leinster v Dragons

Round 15
March3/4/5

Glasgow v Zebre

Munster v Scarlets

Bulls v Lions

Sharks v Stormers

Edinburgh v Leinster

Ospreys v Benetton

Cardiff v Ulster

Dragons v Connacht

Round 16
March24/25/26

Zebre v Cardiff

Leinster v Stormers

Benetton v Lions

Ospreys v Dragons

Connacht v Edinburgh

Munster v Glasgow

Scarlets v Sharks

Ulster v Bulls

Round 17
April14/15/16

Sharks v Benetton

Glasgow v Scarlets

Ulster v Dragons

Lions v Leinster

Bulls v Zebre

Stormers v Munster

Connacht v Cardiff

Edinburgh v Ospreys

Round 18
April21/22/23

Stormers v Benetton

Ulster v Edinburgh

Lions v Zebre

Dragons v Scarlets

Bulls v Leinster

Ospreys v Cardiff

Sharks v Munster

Glasgow v Connacht

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Post by mikey_dragon Fri 29 Jul 2022, 12:22 pm

I haven't seen many folk scrutinise the fixture list yet, maybe that's a good sign?

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Post by Oakdene Fri 29 Jul 2022, 1:11 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:I haven't seen many folk scrutinise the fixture list yet, maybe that's a good sign?

Only issue is we have our biggest home game of the season, against the Ospreys, first up... not bad as it should be good weather & both sides will have their Welsh internationals on show...oh wait.

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Post by RiscaGame Fri 29 Jul 2022, 3:34 pm

The derby first up isn’t great.

I’ve already mentioned the SA tours taking place the same weekend and the week after the fourth AI, so that’s likely to be another two games without internationals too.

One thing I did miss was Ospreys v Dragons on Mar 24 weekend also likely to take place without internationals, as they’re not all likely to be thrown straight back in.

There must be some way to get derby weekends locked in. I know you get the three at Christmas, so why not make the other three Welsh derby fixtures at the same sort of time? For example, I quite like the fact that Dragons have two derbies before the AIs, as they get the best chance to push for recognition. They could be derby weekends possibly. The judgement day weekend is set in stone, so another solution is to make more derbies around that weekend, especially with a “Welsh shield” to play for.

Be interesting to see what kind of kickoff days and times come out, as that might lead to more scrutiny.

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Post by Brendan Sat 30 Jul 2022, 5:27 pm

Fixtures are always hard to read. If you are going to lose two games in South Africa or Ireland you would rather do it without internationals and save them for a more winnable games. Disappointed that the last few rounds of fixtures aren't looking like the blockbust rounds of last year.

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Post by profitius Mon 01 Aug 2022, 6:43 pm

Dragons, Connacht and Benetton with a big turnover of players. Zebra have a massive turnover of players.


The Sharks look to have made the most impressive signings. They're going to be very strong.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_2022%E2%80%9323_United_Rugby_Championship_transfers
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Post by Kingshu Mon 01 Aug 2022, 8:16 pm

Brendan wrote:Fixtures are always hard to read.  If you are going to lose two games in South Africa or Ireland you would rather do it without internationals and save them for a more winnable games.  Disappointed that the last few rounds of fixtures aren't looking like the blockbust rounds of last year.

Im glad they avoided derbies in the last round it involves any accusations of match fixing, and keeps the integrity of the league. Even though Leinster beat Munster to leave them in a worse position, it wouldn't stop some questioning if results benifited unions.

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Post by thebandwagonsociety Thu 04 Aug 2022, 3:17 pm

Munster, Leinster, Zebre and Benetton finish the last two rounds of the season on SA road trips. That probably means Munster/Leinster/Benetton need to have they points accumulated prior heading on these trips.
Also could argue Stormers finish with 10 points onto their position.

It will be interesting to see how the SA sides cope with URC and Cup fixtures during the season.

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Post by RiscaGame Fri 05 Aug 2022, 1:06 pm

Dragons v Ospreys. Our first home derby of the season. 3pm Sunday. I wonder if we have asked not to play Friday night lights, as our fixtures seem to be primarily sat/sun?

I know the County are home on the Saturday, but I think I would prefer Friday night for a derby.

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Post by geoff999rugby Sat 06 Aug 2022, 7:56 am

I know this is a topic of interest for some on this board Very Happy

Ulster have 5 Friday games, 3 Saturday games and 1 Sunday game.
Only the third Sunday game in our history

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Post by Pot Hale Sun 07 Aug 2022, 11:01 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:I know this is a topic of interest for some on this board Very Happy

Ulster have 5 Friday games, 3 Saturday games and 1 Sunday game.
Only the third Sunday game in our history

Leinster 2, 6, 1
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Post by PhilBB Wed 17 Aug 2022, 11:54 am

geoff999rugby wrote:I know this is a topic of interest for some on this board Very Happy

Ulster have 5 Friday games, 3 Saturday games and 1 Sunday game.
Only the third Sunday game in our history

Our database of games shows that Ulster have played 205 games on a Friday

https://www.cardiffrfcfans.com/analysis/4830.php?clubID=31

We have 300 home games for Ulster in the database.

It must be nice having such certainty for fixtures. It's certainly much easier to sell season tickets.
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Post by PhilBB Wed 17 Aug 2022, 11:54 am

RiscaGame wrote:Dragons v Ospreys. Our first home derby of the season. 3pm Sunday. I wonder if we have asked not to play Friday night lights, as our fixtures seem to be primarily sat/sun?

I know the County are home on the Saturday, but I think I would prefer Friday night for a derby.

Does the rental agreement prevent rugby being played the day before the soccer (as they have primacy of tenancy)?
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Post by geoff999rugby Wed 17 Aug 2022, 12:29 pm

PhilBB wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:I know this is a topic of interest for some on this board Very Happy

Ulster have 5 Friday games, 3 Saturday games and 1 Sunday game.
Only the third Sunday game in our history

Our database of games shows that Ulster have played 205 games on a Friday

https://www.cardiffrfcfans.com/analysis/4830.php?clubID=31

We have 300 home games for Ulster in the database.

It must be nice having such certainty for fixtures. It's certainly much easier to sell season tickets.


Not really - the datebase suggest 1/3 of games are not on a Friday night.
That would include the majority of European fixtures.
The vast majority of ST's are brought in advance of knowing which fixtures are when.

4 of this years 9 URC games are not on a Friday - 44.4%
When we know the European games there is a chance the majority of Ulster games are not on a Friday.

Every team  is free to request when they prefer to play.
Many teams prefer Saturday.
Also many teams are constrained by the ground they play at - Ospreys and Dragons come to mind.
Also affected Cardiff and Glasgow in the past.

On top of that I don't trust the Database - it states 6 Ulster games on a Sunday.
Ulster have only ever played 2 games on a Sunday in their history so the data is not reliable.

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Post by PhilBB Wed 17 Aug 2022, 1:29 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:

Not really - the datebase suggest 1/3 of games are not on a Friday night.
That would include the majority of European fixtures.
The vast majority of ST's are brought in advance of knowing which fixtures are when.

4 of this years 9 URC games are not on a Friday - 44.4%
When we know the European games there is a chance the majority of Ulster games are not on a Friday.

Every team  is free to request when they prefer to play.
Many teams prefer Saturday.
Also many teams are constrained by the ground they play at - Ospreys and Dragons come to mind.
Also affected Cardiff and Glasgow in the past.

On top of that I don't trust the Database - it states 6 Ulster games on a Sunday.
Ulster have only ever played 2 games on a Sunday in their history so the data is not reliable.

So knowing that c.70% of your fixtures will kick off on a Friday evening is NOT a benefit to season ticket sales? That's your honest opinion?

Thanks for heads up on the Sunday games. I'll see which errors I've made.
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Post by RiscaGame Wed 17 Aug 2022, 1:32 pm

PhilBB wrote:
RiscaGame wrote:Dragons v Ospreys. Our first home derby of the season. 3pm Sunday. I wonder if we have asked not to play Friday night lights, as our fixtures seem to be primarily sat/sun?

I know the County are home on the Saturday, but I think I would prefer Friday night for a derby.

Does the rental agreement prevent rugby being played the day before the soccer (as they have primacy of tenancy)?

I thought it had been done before and is being done at some point, this coming season too. I seem to recall being at games and the posts being dropped almost straight away, but couldn't tell you with any conviction.

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Post by PhilBB Wed 17 Aug 2022, 1:49 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:
Ulster have only ever played 2 games on a Sunday in their history so the data is not reliable.

Sunday, January 11th, 2004 = Ulster 33 Leicester 0
Sunday, February 21st, 2016 = Ulster 20 Scarlets 21
Sunday, May 20th, 2018 = Ulster 35 Ospreys 17
Sunday, October 25th, 2020 = Ulster 40 Dragons 17
Sunday, November 22nd, 2020 = Ulster 26 Scarlets 24

The 6th game in the database is the one scheduled for January 1st, on a Sunday, against Munster

So do you think the data is reliable now?
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Post by geoff999rugby Wed 17 Aug 2022, 2:28 pm

Clearly I forgot one as we have played 3 in front of crowds.
Which in itself is great, after the stink kicked up by Paisley at the Leicester game subsequent matches have occurred without a murmur.

The last two are, to an extent, a distortion.
Played behind close doors during Covid.
I would suggest they would not have been on a Sunday if crowds had been allowed.
I accept the database appears accurate.

As to buying ST yes I do believe virtually all would buy them regardless of fixture dates.
Where Fridays make a difference is the purchase of tickets by the occasional visitors buying tickets.
I would be of the opinion we would get more tickets of that type brought on Fridays

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Post by PhilBB Wed 17 Aug 2022, 3:23 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:
I accept the database appears accurate.

Cheers

p.s. many in Wales are walking away from buying season tickets precisely because of the variance in kick off times and days
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Post by LeinsterFan4life Wed 17 Aug 2022, 4:31 pm

PhilBB wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:
I accept the database appears accurate.

Cheers

p.s. many in Wales are walking away from buying season tickets precisely because of the variance in kick off times and days
Cheer up it could be worse, your teams could be in the premiership, where two teams are on the verge of going bust. The prem is "thriving" apparently.

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Post by geoff999rugby Wed 17 Aug 2022, 4:33 pm

PhilBB wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:
I accept the database appears accurate.

Cheers

p.s. many in Wales are walking away from buying season tickets precisely because of the variance in kick off times and days

As I mentioned we do see a decline in the crowd size when not on a Friday but it is my strong belief that is the casual match by match spectator not the
regular ST holders.

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Post by neilthom7 Wed 17 Aug 2022, 7:26 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:
I accept the database appears accurate.

Cheers

p.s. many in Wales are walking away from buying season tickets precisely because of the variance in kick off times and days

As I mentioned we do see a decline in the crowd size when not on a Friday but it is my strong belief that is the casual match by match spectator not the
regular ST holders.

I'd agree with that, I don't really care when the games are and it didn't even come into my thinking when buying the season ticket this year. If anything Sat and Sun are better for me as I'm off work and don't have to rush like some of the Friday night games.

For the casual it's more likely that a Friday night would work as part of their night out so to speak

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Post by PhilBB Wed 17 Aug 2022, 8:34 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:
I accept the database appears accurate.

Cheers

p.s. many in Wales are walking away from buying season tickets precisely because of the variance in kick off times and days
Cheer up it could be worse, your teams could be in the premiership, where two teams are on the verge of going bust. The prem is "thriving" apparently.

There's three clubs on the verge of going bust in Wales and we've only got four to start with.

The Prem is thriving, but pro rugby won't work in Worcester and it won't work when a business loses £8m in a year because it can't open its hotel.
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Post by PhilBB Wed 17 Aug 2022, 8:35 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:
I accept the database appears accurate.

Cheers

p.s. many in Wales are walking away from buying season tickets precisely because of the variance in kick off times and days

As I mentioned we do see a decline in the crowd size when not on a Friday but it is my strong belief that is the casual match by match spectator not the
regular ST holders.

By the same database, Ulster's average home crowd (over the years) is larger on a Saturday than Friday

https://www.cardiffrfcfans.com/analysis/4830.php?clubID=31

Maybe we'll run that again for the last decade to see if that affects things.
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Post by LeinsterFan4life Wed 17 Aug 2022, 9:44 pm

PhilBB wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:
I accept the database appears accurate.

Cheers

p.s. many in Wales are walking away from buying season tickets precisely because of the variance in kick off times and days
Cheer up it could be worse, your teams could be in the premiership, where two teams are on the verge of going bust. The prem is "thriving" apparently.

There's three clubs on the verge of going bust in Wales and we've only got four to start with.

The Prem is thriving, but pro rugby won't work in Worcester and it won't work when a business loses £8m in a year because it can't open its hotel.
No its not thriving, hence why they had to get rid of promotion and relegation. Rugby is thriving in the south of France...Thats it, everyone else is living off scraps. Domestic rugby is still an incredibly niche sport.

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Post by PhilBB Thu 18 Aug 2022, 9:18 am

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
No its not thriving, hence why they had to get rid of promotion and relegation. Rugby is thriving in the south of France...Thats it, everyone else is living off scraps. Domestic rugby is still an incredibly niche sport.

There's no promotion and relegation in the URC yet three clubs are close to going through.

Covid did for promotion and relegation, but CVC still valued the GP far higher than they did the URC.

Domestic rugby will never grow whilst Unions run the game. This is quite clear and obvious and underlined by your reference to France where the Union has the least influence over domestic rugby.

When you have two nations in the URC who own all of their entrant teams and run them with the overriding purpose of 'producing international players', domestic rugby will never reach its potential.

Just imagine how good domestic rugby could become if there were fewer internationals and all domestic teams had their main goal to be successful for themselves.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 18 Aug 2022, 10:07 am

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:
I accept the database appears accurate.

Cheers

p.s. many in Wales are walking away from buying season tickets precisely because of the variance in kick off times and days
Cheer up it could be worse, your teams could be in the premiership, where two teams are on the verge of going bust. The prem is "thriving" apparently.

There's three clubs on the verge of going bust in Wales and we've only got four to start with.

The Prem is thriving, but pro rugby won't work in Worcester and it won't work when a business loses £8m in a year because it can't open its hotel.
No its not thriving, hence why they had to get rid of promotion and relegation. Rugby is thriving in the south of France...Thats it, everyone else is living off scraps. Domestic rugby is still an incredibly niche sport.

Relegation stopped for a couple of years for covid, but is due to return. There would be a few clubs of course who would like a closed shop in case they ever came into the position of going down.

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Post by PhilBB Thu 18 Aug 2022, 10:09 am

As a (probably pointless) comparison, the IRFU owed €29m in PAYE debt as of 31/7/21

Worcester owed £2.3m in tax and social security as of 30/6/2020
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Post by Sgt_Pooly Thu 18 Aug 2022, 10:39 am

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:
I accept the database appears accurate.

Cheers

p.s. many in Wales are walking away from buying season tickets precisely because of the variance in kick off times and days
Cheer up it could be worse, your teams could be in the premiership, where two teams are on the verge of going bust. The prem is "thriving" apparently.

What a peculiar dig.

The premiership is doing well, but as in all walks of professional sport, covid has put real pressure on clubs. I don't think any club in any sport is immune to this unless they have some serious money behind the scenes, it's the way of the world at the minute.

Maybe look into why Wasps are struggling, you might learn a thing or two thumbsup

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Post by LeinsterFan4life Thu 18 Aug 2022, 10:57 am

PhilBB wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:
No its not thriving, hence why they had to get rid of promotion and relegation. Rugby is thriving in the south of France...Thats it, everyone else is living off scraps. Domestic rugby is still an incredibly niche sport.

There's no promotion and relegation in the URC yet three clubs are close to going through.

Covid did for promotion and relegation, but CVC still valued the GP far higher than they did the URC.

Domestic rugby will never grow whilst Unions run the game. This is quite clear and obvious and underlined by your reference to France where the Union has the least influence over domestic rugby.

When you have two nations in the URC who own all of their entrant teams and run them with the overriding purpose of 'producing international players', domestic rugby will never reach its potential.

Just imagine how good domestic rugby could become if there were fewer internationals and all domestic teams had their main goal to be successful for themselves.
Rugby Union would never have expanded if it wasn't for internationals, just look at the struggles rugby league has with expansion where they can barely put on an international between world cups. Our international calender is the envy of league fans, just look on any league forum. The NRL for instance is probably the second biggest rugby domestic league in all of rugby and yet the game struggles to expand outside of Sydney there, let alone into new countries.

Like I said domestic rugby is a niche sport that is likely to never really catch on with the wider public.

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Post by geoff999rugby Thu 18 Aug 2022, 11:34 am

PhilBB wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:
I accept the database appears accurate.

Cheers

p.s. many in Wales are walking away from buying season tickets precisely because of the variance in kick off times and days

As I mentioned we do see a decline in the crowd size when not on a Friday but it is my strong belief that is the casual match by match spectator not the
regular ST holders.

By the same database, Ulster's average home crowd (over the years) is larger on a Saturday than Friday

https://www.cardiffrfcfans.com/analysis/4830.php?clubID=31

Maybe we'll run that again for the last decade to see if that affects things.

There is a simple explanation for that.
Many/Most? European Cup games are on a Saturday.
They draw bigger crowds and would bring the Saturday average up a lot.

If you stripped them out I am sure the reverse would be true.

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Post by geoff999rugby Thu 18 Aug 2022, 11:52 am

PhilBB wrote:As a (probably pointless) comparison, the IRFU owed €29m in PAYE debt as of 31/7/21

Worcester owed £2.3m in tax and social security as of 30/6/2020

From what I can see the profit/loss for IRFU for the 6 years up to March 21 was as follows:

20/21 - (10,068,245)
19/20 - (35,667,384)
18/19 -  28,252,170
17/18 -   2,718,350
16/17 -      321,070
15/16 -    7,328,990

What it does shows is they were hit hard during Covid - who wasn't? but that the trend in previous years was positive.
Given the assets they have they should be fine.

Munster are still in big trouble.

Ulster took a hit but have curtailed their salary cost considerably and are looking ok.

A decade ago we had Payne, Muller, Pienaer, Afoa and Wannenberg
This year we have Vermuelen, Carter and Toomunga-Allen
The last two are not on top salaries and in case of Carter it is the waste of a NIQ contract.

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Post by PhilBB Thu 18 Aug 2022, 1:19 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
Rugby Union would never have expanded if it wasn't for internationals, just look at the struggles rugby league has with expansion where they can barely put on an international between world cups. Our international calender is the envy of league fans, just look on any league forum. The NRL for instance is probably the second biggest rugby domestic league in all of rugby and yet the game struggles to expand outside of Sydney there, let alone into new countries.

Like I said domestic rugby is a niche sport that is likely to never really catch on with the wider public.

Nobody has suggested ending international rugby.

And there's more international rugby played now than ever before.

So you've not addressed my point at all. Instead you created a straw man argument and, whatever you do, don't go to Queensland with that view of rugby league.
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Post by PhilBB Thu 18 Aug 2022, 1:21 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:
PhilBB wrote:As a (probably pointless) comparison, the IRFU owed €29m in PAYE debt as of 31/7/21

Worcester owed £2.3m in tax and social security as of 30/6/2020

From what I can see the profit/loss for IRFU for the 6 years up to March 21 was as follows:

20/21 - (10,068,245)
19/20 - (35,667,384)
18/19 -  28,252,170
17/18 -   2,718,350
16/17 -      321,070
15/16 -    7,328,990

What it does shows is they were hit hard during Covid - who wasn't? but that the trend in previous years was positive.
Given the assets they have they should be fine.

Munster are still in big trouble.

Ulster took a hit but have curtailed their salary cost considerably and are looking ok.

A decade ago we had Payne, Muller, Pienaer, Afoa and Wannenberg
This year we have Vermuelen, Carter and Toomunga-Allen
The last two are not on top salaries and in case of Carter it is the waste of a NIQ contract.

Munster and Ulster don't exist outside of the IRFU, so I'm not sure why they are mentioned.

Yes, but you're right on the Covid issue that I needed to raise to the other poster further above.
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Post by geoff999rugby Thu 18 Aug 2022, 3:46 pm

Munster and Ulster are mentioned because the IRFU require them to manage their own budgets.
Ulster were in a little bit of difficulty but have, by and large, pulled it back with a reduced overall salary.
Munster in contrast have a significant debt which wil ltake years(decades?) to address.

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Post by PhilBB Thu 18 Aug 2022, 4:06 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:Munster and Ulster are mentioned because the IRFU require them to manage their own budgets.
Ulster were in a little bit of difficulty but have, by and large, pulled it back with a reduced overall salary.
Munster in contrast have a significant debt which wil ltake years(decades?) to address.

66 years, in fact, at €100,000 a year.

But all are just branches of the IRFU, so it's not particularly relevant.
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Post by LeinsterFan4life Thu 18 Aug 2022, 4:33 pm

PhilBB wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:
Rugby Union would never have expanded if it wasn't for internationals, just look at the struggles rugby league has with expansion where they can barely put on an international between world cups. Our international calender is the envy of league fans, just look on any league forum. The NRL for instance is probably the second biggest rugby domestic league in all of rugby and yet the game struggles to expand outside of Sydney there, let alone into new countries.

Like I said domestic rugby is a niche sport that is likely to never really catch on with the wider public.

Nobody has suggested ending international rugby.

And there's more international rugby played now than ever before.

So you've not addressed my point at all. Instead you created a straw man argument and, whatever you do, don't go to Queensland with that view of rugby league.
Queensland has 3 NRL clubs, compared to sydneys 9...

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Post by PhilBB Thu 18 Aug 2022, 4:55 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:
Rugby Union would never have expanded if it wasn't for internationals, just look at the struggles rugby league has with expansion where they can barely put on an international between world cups. Our international calender is the envy of league fans, just look on any league forum. The NRL for instance is probably the second biggest rugby domestic league in all of rugby and yet the game struggles to expand outside of Sydney there, let alone into new countries.

Like I said domestic rugby is a niche sport that is likely to never really catch on with the wider public.

Nobody has suggested ending international rugby.

And there's more international rugby played now than ever before.

So you've not addressed my point at all. Instead you created a straw man argument and, whatever you do, don't go to Queensland with that view of rugby league.
Queensland has 3 NRL clubs, compared to sydneys 9...

And if you'd been there you'd know about population density........which you're confusing for popularity.
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Post by LeinsterFan4life Thu 18 Aug 2022, 5:17 pm

PhilBB wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:
Rugby Union would never have expanded if it wasn't for internationals, just look at the struggles rugby league has with expansion where they can barely put on an international between world cups. Our international calender is the envy of league fans, just look on any league forum. The NRL for instance is probably the second biggest rugby domestic league in all of rugby and yet the game struggles to expand outside of Sydney there, let alone into new countries.

Like I said domestic rugby is a niche sport that is likely to never really catch on with the wider public.

Nobody has suggested ending international rugby.

And there's more international rugby played now than ever before.

So you've not addressed my point at all. Instead you created a straw man argument and, whatever you do, don't go to Queensland with that view of rugby league.
Queensland has 3 NRL clubs, compared to sydneys 9...

And if you'd been there you'd know about population density........which you're confusing for popularity.
I never said it wasn't played in other parts of Aus, I said the game has struggled to expand outside of Sydney, which it absolutely has. Even NRL fans are frustrated at the lack of expansion. The game can't grow as nobody wants to watch domestic clubs that are outside of their area, which again leads back to the domestic game is a niche sport in both codes. The reason why we have so many internationals is because that's the only place where rugby has learned to make money.

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Post by PhilBB Fri 19 Aug 2022, 10:23 am

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
I never said it wasn't played in other parts of Aus, I said the game has struggled to expand outside of Sydney, which it absolutely has. Even NRL fans are frustrated at the lack of expansion. The game can't grow as nobody wants to watch domestic clubs that are outside of their area, which again leads back to the domestic game is a niche sport in both codes. The reason why we have so many internationals is because that's the only place where rugby has learned to make money.

It hasn't struggled for the reasons already given. Never mind if you can't accept them.

And you still don't understand that the number of internationals played prevents the next level down from becoming profitable. No matter what I write, you just ignore it to reaffirm the point you originally made that I'd already disproved.

Pointless.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 19 Aug 2022, 10:35 am

I'm intrigued to find out why you think the popularity of England prevents Saracens being profitable.

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Post by LeinsterFan4life Fri 19 Aug 2022, 10:45 am

PhilBB wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:
I never said it wasn't played in other parts of Aus, I said the game has struggled to expand outside of Sydney, which it absolutely has. Even NRL fans are frustrated at the lack of expansion. The game can't grow as nobody wants to watch domestic clubs that are outside of their area, which again leads back to the domestic game is a niche sport in both codes. The reason why we have so many internationals is because that's the only place where rugby has learned to make money.

It hasn't struggled for the reasons already given. Never mind if you can't accept them.

And you still don't understand that the number of internationals played prevents the next level down from becoming profitable. No matter what I write, you just ignore it to reaffirm the point you originally made that I'd already disproved.

Pointless.
It's like you read the first line of a post and then go straight to replying. Like what have you disproved? Headscratch


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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 19 Aug 2022, 10:51 am

And do either of you reckon the main aim of clubs should be to make money? Man U make a shed load of it from their owners; the fans are exceedingly unhappy because of it believing it should all go back into the team, stadium etc.

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Post by Welshmushroom Fri 19 Aug 2022, 1:10 pm

Lets be honest here - Pro Rugby is only pro in salaries. It's light years behind in terms of marketing, analysis, training and a whole host of different areas including management. You only have to look at the Premiership as an example. They made decisions primarily thinking they could replicate football. The key point however is football is a non contact sport. NFL for example is the closest thing currently that is most similar to Rugby. Premiership increasing teams to 14 and presumably more matches (26 in total for the league) is the complete opposite of what the NFL did many years ago. The NFL reduced games but improved quality and then have a decent off season which then gets fans excited for the new season rolls around. Meanwhile in rugby the breaks a virtually non existent and there are no real no rugby resets during the year.

The argument from the owners will be they need to be playing games all the time at club level to give them best chance to grow their own clubs. Problem is I actually think this doesn't help the growth of a club or league. Part of the reason rugby has to rely so heavily on the international game to grow the sport is because at international the windows are far smaller for fans to follow and the standard of rugby is much higher.

I actually think the fact the URC for example have made better decisions on reducing games rather than increasing games at club level.

I don't see any evidence that even remotely suggests that international rugby hinders the club game in anyway, and if anything in most cases club sides wouldn't even exist without it, aside from the TOP14.

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Post by Welshmushroom Fri 19 Aug 2022, 2:11 pm

Welshmushroom wrote:

The argument from the owners will be they need to be playing games all the time at club level to give them best chance to grow their own clubs.  Problem is I actually think this doesn't help the growth of a club or league.  Part of the reason rugby has to rely so heavily on the international game to grow the sport is because at international the windows are far smaller for fans to follow and the standard of rugby is much higher.  


Just to elaborate on this point, when club seasons are so long is not difficult to see why only the very dedicated club rugby fans will regularly attend. I'd also point on this is a key factor why clubs are not pulling that many away fans in their domestic leagues because a lot of fans have plenty of home games to attend instead so unless the game has a particular significance they feel less likely to take the trip.

This format also won't help bringing new fans on as your already talking about having a very complicated game to follow but then essentially creating a scenario where you are trying to get them to attend over the course of 10 months of the year. Premiership and Top 14 rugby probably will still be exactly where they are now in terms of attendance looking 5 years ahead. The growth under their current model just isn't there to support anything than stale growth at club level.

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Post by PhilBB Fri 19 Aug 2022, 3:32 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'm intrigued to find out why you think the popularity of England prevents Saracens being profitable.

I didn't mention "popularity", if that question is (badly) aimed at me.
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Post by PhilBB Fri 19 Aug 2022, 3:33 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:And do either of you reckon the main aim of clubs should be to make money? Man U make a shed load of it from their owners; the fans are exceedingly unhappy because of it believing it should all go back into the team, stadium etc.

At this stage of professional rugby, clubs should be breaking even (or losing relatively little) whilst growing their value.

Exactly how CVC sees the GP, for example.
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Post by PhilBB Fri 19 Aug 2022, 3:36 pm

Welshmushroom wrote:Lets be honest here - Pro Rugby is only pro in salaries.  It's light years behind in terms of marketing, analysis, training and a whole host of different areas including management.  You only have to look at the Premiership as an example. They made decisions primarily thinking they could replicate football.  The key point however is football is a non contact sport.  NFL for example is the closest thing currently that is most similar to Rugby.  Premiership increasing teams to 14 and presumably more matches (26 in total for the league) is the complete opposite of what the NFL did many years ago.  The NFL reduced games but improved quality and then have a decent off season which then gets fans excited for the new season rolls around.  Meanwhile in rugby the breaks a virtually non existent and there are no real no rugby resets during the year.

The argument from the owners will be they need to be playing games all the time at club level to give them best chance to grow their own clubs.  Problem is I actually think this doesn't help the growth of a club or league.  Part of the reason rugby has to rely so heavily on the international game to grow the sport is because at international the windows are far smaller for fans to follow and the standard of rugby is much higher.  

I actually think the fact the URC for example have made better decisions on reducing games rather than increasing games at club level.  

I don't see any evidence that even remotely suggests that international rugby hinders the club game in anyway, and if anything in most cases club sides wouldn't even exist without it, aside from the TOP14.

So you write a whole piece about how the GP is wrong to move to 14 clubs but then acknowledge how the Top14 (clue there) would survive without international rugby.

Can you see the massive contradiction? You've just undermined your entire point.

And the point of international rugby is very, very simple: if there was not so much of it, the better players would play more domestic rugby, so the commercial value of domestic rugby would grow.

Meanwhile, the URC is reducing its broadcast income but is kept alive by Irish tax breaks and SA TV money.
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Post by PhilBB Fri 19 Aug 2022, 3:37 pm

Welshmushroom wrote:

Just to elaborate on this point, when club seasons are so long is not difficult to see why only the very dedicated club rugby fans will regularly attend.  I'd also point on this is a key factor why clubs are not pulling that many away fans in their domestic leagues because a lot of fans have plenty of home games to attend instead so unless the game has a particular significance they feel less likely to take the trip.

This format also won't help bringing new fans on as your already talking about having a very complicated game to follow but then essentially creating a scenario where you are trying to get them to attend over the course of 10 months of the year.   Premiership and Top 14 rugby probably will still be exactly where they are now in terms of attendance looking 5 years ahead.  The growth under their current model just isn't there to support anything than stale growth at club level.

Mate, seasons are long precisely because there's too much international rugby clogging up the fixture lists.

Where's your evidence that fans aren't pulling in away fans?

And you fail to recognise the stale growth is precisely because there's too much international rugby!!
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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 19 Aug 2022, 3:43 pm

PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:I'm intrigued to find out why you think the popularity of England prevents Saracens being profitable.

I didn't mention "popularity", if that question is (badly) aimed at me.

Can't be that badly aimed as it was obviously for you. I'm intrigued still why you think the number of internationals prevent Saracens being profitable. Or do you mean European competitions as thats the next step down?

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