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Scotland AI thread

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Post by Highland Shaun Wed 28 Sep 2022, 10:54 pm

First topic message reminder :

Results in aggregate this year for the national team were:

5 February 2022 - Scotland 20–17 England
12 February 2022 - Wales 20–17 Scotland
26 February 2022 - Scotland 17–36 France
12 March 2022 - Italy 22–33 Scotland
19 March 2022 - Ireland 26–5 Scotland
2 July 2022 - Argentina 26–18 Scotland
9 July 2022 - Argentina 6–29 Scotland
16 July 2022 - Argentina 34–31 Scotland
29 October 2022 - Scotland 15–16 Australia
5 November 2022 - Scotland 28–12 Fiji
13 November 2022 - Scotland 23–31 New Zealand
19 November 2022 - Scotland 52–29 Argentina

P 12 W 5 L 7
Erm

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Post by tigertattie Sun 13 Nov 2022, 3:42 pm

Commentary team joining me in the Duhan praise. He’s a monster!
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Post by Collapse2005 Sun 13 Nov 2022, 3:59 pm

Will be tough for Scotland now but it isn't over

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Post by Duty281 Sun 13 Nov 2022, 4:13 pm

They just weren't clinical enough in the first half. They should have gone in with a big lead. They didn't. And they lost as a result.

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Post by tigertattie Sun 13 Nov 2022, 4:15 pm

Much better performance but we’re too inconsistent

Penalties in the second half along with not finishing chances near the line the first half are what ultimately cost us.

A win would have been excellent but may have ended up glossing over our glaring issues. Hopefully we can look at some form of rebuilding and get better
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Post by BigGee Sun 13 Nov 2022, 4:32 pm

Just felt it fsding awsy in the last 20 mins, you could sense it in the ground

Their bench made a big difference, i thought we maybe used ours to late as we were running out of gas

Fundamentaly we lost as we did not take our chances and unsurprisingly NZ did!

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Post by Collapse2005 Sun 13 Nov 2022, 4:34 pm

Hard luck Scotland, definitely had the goods to take that one.

Reminds me of the near missed Ireland had before fibally getting over the line. Not far off.

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Post by mountain man Sun 13 Nov 2022, 4:38 pm

That was Scotland best chance ever of getting win over NZ. 9 points up with 20 mins to go but the NZ subs made a difference. Scotland so good first half and NZ conceded so many pens and missed so many tackles.

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Post by George Carlin Sun 13 Nov 2022, 6:46 pm

Am so tired of these comments that were ‘building’ and have things to ‘take forward’. Am I allowed to ask when we’ll have something approaching a finished product?
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Post by tigertattie Sun 13 Nov 2022, 7:11 pm

My point exactly Oh great exorbitant hourly rate charging one

Had we beaten the blackness, the media and fair weather supporters would be saying how great 2022 has been for us. I know we need bums on seats but my god, how many times did the crowd cheer when they thought we scored when actually we’d given away a penalty.

We’re seriously lacking in many aspects and today was the perfect example of this. 14 down and we’re written off (including by myself) and “boom” the team explode into life and show how the wee dog can bite. As soon as we get into a position where we look like we could win, that intensity drops away, we give away half a dozen penalties and oh dear, we’re done for.

As I’ve said, the SRU ain’t gonna bin Toonie until after the World Cup, if even then! Today was a vast improvement in quality, the first half was excellent. The second half was garbage. I’d love to see a Jamie Joseph or Pat Lam coached Scotland team with players like Hutchinson in the team instead of folk like Ali price.
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Post by bsando Sun 13 Nov 2022, 7:52 pm

There was obviously some good but as whole 80 mins I was less than impressed with that performance. Individual brilliance of VDM, Darcy and Russell in attack and some excellent defence (at times) by the whole team were essentially erased by the complete opposite for the remaining 30-40 mins. That’s what you get when you don’t pick a settled team. NZ simply brought on a few experienced heads and Scotland withered away completely.

Even when Scotland was 9 points ahead I felt we had less chance of winning than when we were behind in 2017.

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Post by RDW Sun 13 Nov 2022, 8:29 pm

Ooft you won't get any better opportunity to beat the ABs than that! Gloriously failure again, and more of what should have been.

Ive only watched the mini match while getting ready for work, but we left so many scoring opportunities out there in that first half. We then lacked the ability to wrestle momentum back late in the 2nd when ABs pulled ahead.

Hard to rate individual performances from a 20 minute highlight package but Hogg didn't look to have a good game. Missed tackles, and a criminal stealing of space and hogging the ball (pun intended) before Graham's try that was ruled out. Time to try Kinghorn at 15...?

Finally, very sad to see the condition Doddie is in now, 5 years after walking onto the pitch Crying or Very sad

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Post by bsando Sun 13 Nov 2022, 8:37 pm

Yeah I felt for poor Doddie as well. Only seems like yesterday he was waltzing out with his family to deliver the match ball in 2017. Still smiling which was incredibly admirable.

Hogg was good at times but by his standards he’s not quite at his best. Obviously his days of making searing breaks are probably over but he’s struggling to offer the same attacking threat that he once did. I wouldn’t be surprised if he retired after the World Cup to be honest. I think he would be more than capable of landing a good pay day in Japan or France.

The missed chances were a killer but NZ made some really good last ditch turn overs as well. Even when they’re having a bad day they’re still pretty damn good. Whitelock was incredibly humble in his post match interview I thought.

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Post by RDW Sun 13 Nov 2022, 8:57 pm

Speaking of Kinghorn, it's weird he didn't come on, even in the last 5 minutes when the game was gone.

Really hope Toonie hasn't completely destroyed his confidence in this last 2 weeks.

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Post by RDW Sun 13 Nov 2022, 9:10 pm

https://twitter.com/topofthemoonGW/status/1591841505140174848?t=sNCQHxtUypChoZwZuFSGVw&s=19

We need a better bench!

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Post by RDW Sun 13 Nov 2022, 9:37 pm

Final word from me on Jamie Ritchie - regularly one of our best players on the pitch, and now a leader who we can build a team around for the next 5 years. He's fitted into the role so effortlessly and is a real natural fit for it.

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Post by tigertattie Sun 13 Nov 2022, 10:12 pm

Absolute respect for Doddie. Very sadly the average prognosis for MND sufferers is to only live for a further two years. Doddie really is taking the fight to the horrible condition on a personal level along with his endeavours to raise funds and awareness with hopefully a cure in the future.

Quite simply, give the man a knighthood. He’s done more and fought harder than many a sportsperson who has been knighted for winning a competition or two
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Post by George Carlin Mon 14 Nov 2022, 4:35 am

RDW wrote:https://twitter.com/topofthemoonGW/status/1591841505140174848?t=sNCQHxtUypChoZwZuFSGVw&s=19

We need a better bench!
That's quite sobering when you see all of that written down. We have no 'closers' other than maybe some good front row replacements.
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Post by sensisball Mon 14 Nov 2022, 7:13 am

The difference Finn made to the attacking variations used was clear to see.
His kicking from the tee was also superb. Something missing for the last 5 games.
I think Hogg's best days are well behind him. Showed a few glimpses of his old self but he has lost the acceleration that used to terrify defences.
I think if Kinghorn is to play, which clearly he must, then give him a run at 15. Sure he is a poor defender, but Hogg has also become a fairly porous last line of defence. But Kinghorn is surely faster.

Forwards were great, (Fraser Brown take a bow ). However with Hamish's loss of form and Darge's long term injury we are struggling for back row impact from the bench.
We are still light on genuine carrying threats up front and this really hurts us at tail ends of games when opposition can bring on subs with real impact.
E.g.Jonny Gray for me either starts, or isn't in the 23. He makes no discernible impact when he comes on, just does his usual small carries and makes several soak tackles.
The one exception was Ashman who did carry well a couple of times.
WP Nel has been an amazing servant and great to see him make 50 caps. However, if he is currently out second best tight head, aged 36, with 10 months until WC 23 then we are in a difficult place.

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Post by EST Mon 14 Nov 2022, 9:04 am

sensisball wrote:The difference Finn made to the attacking variations used was clear to see.
His kicking from the tee was also superb. Something missing for the last 5 games.
I think Hogg's best days are well behind him. Showed a few glimpses of his old self but he has lost the acceleration that used to terrify defences.
I think if Kinghorn is to play, which clearly he must, then give him a run at 15. Sure he is a poor defender, but Hogg has also become a fairly porous last line of defence. But Kinghorn is surely faster.

Forwards were great, (Fraser Brown take a bow ). However with Hamish's loss of form and Darge's long term injury we are struggling for back row impact from the bench.
We are still light on genuine carrying threats up front and this really hurts us at tail ends of games when opposition can bring on subs with real impact.
E.g.Jonny Gray for me either starts, or isn't in the 23. He makes no discernible impact when he comes on, just does his usual small carries and makes several soak tackles.
The one exception was Ashman who did carry well a couple of times.
WP Nel has been an amazing servant and great to see him make 50 caps. However, if he is currently out second best tight head, aged 36, with 10 months until WC 23 then we are in a difficult place.

Good summary Sensiball. I hope that whatever else comes from this series, that Toonie can put whatever issue he has with Finn aside for the wider good of the team - it shouldn't need saying, but he is quite obviously the best 10 we have by some margin.

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Post by BigGee Mon 14 Nov 2022, 9:32 am

I am vaguely encouraged that playing a game like that against the All Blacks and running them so close may just be the catalyst for the whole team and coach to start pulling together.

In truth we are not too far away from the best teams if we play to the sum of our parts and maybe they might all start to realise that now.

I guess we will see going forward.

Toonie still has some selection dilemmas though and I don't think he knows his best team yet as some of his go to's of the past, Hoggy, Price, Watson amongst them, look like they might be struggling to make the last lap. Putting them to bed this side of a WC might just re-ignite the squad disharmony and could be a dangerous game to play again.

I hope he freshens up the team a bit for the last game against Argentina and gives a few others a chance to stake a claim. I don't think we really have anything to lose.

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Post by RDW Mon 14 Nov 2022, 9:42 am

How did Tuipolotu play?

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Post by EWT Spoons Mon 14 Nov 2022, 9:57 am

RDW wrote:Speaking of Kinghorn, it's weird he didn't come on, even in the last 5 minutes when the game was gone.

Really hope Toonie hasn't completely destroyed his confidence in this last 2 weeks.

He came on for Tuipolotu in the 77th min. Too late to really do anything, but he did come on

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Post by bsando Mon 14 Nov 2022, 10:13 am

RDW wrote:How did Tuipolotu play?

Solid I thought. Good game without anything flashy. His physicality is his strength but if we want someone who can do it all, Redpath is the man.

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Post by bsando Mon 14 Nov 2022, 10:15 am

Agree with comments above and would add that Toonie said the right things after the loss. I’m glad he saw it as a big missed opportunity rather than trying to make excuses.

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Post by RDW Mon 14 Nov 2022, 11:19 am

EWT Spoons wrote:
RDW wrote:Speaking of Kinghorn, it's weird he didn't come on, even in the last 5 minutes when the game was gone.

Really hope Toonie hasn't completely destroyed his confidence in this last 2 weeks.

He came on for Tuipolotu in the 77th min.  Too late to really do anything, but he did come on

3 minutes of the Kinghorn -Finn axis then...!

It is remarkable to see how little substitutes often find themselve getting involved. Mark Bennett played 15 minutes and touched the ball one and missed a tackle - that's it.

We talk about needing finishers but for me that really means impact in the forwards. Other than a replacement 9, your replacement backs subs rarely make much difference with 15-20 minute at the end of a game, unless they're specialists like a long range kicker or a game breaker that you can just chuck the ball to if all else fails. Were Bennet and Kinghorn ever going to make a difference? Probably not.

A few forwards making key turnovers, sacking a maul, a rampaging carry etc can make a huge difference in closing out a game. That's where we're lacking compared to the other top teams IMO.

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Post by Heuer27 Mon 14 Nov 2022, 2:24 pm

Well I’ve come home and rewatched the game totally sober and in relative comfort.
Whilst not as obvious as it was in the stadium, Scotland butchered three guilt edged opportunities. Two by Hogg one by VDM. That’s not including the goal line disasters.
It’s hard to say it out loud after the terrible start but we really should have been out of sight of that average All black side by half time 🤦🏻

The terrible attempted tackles by Hogg and Bennett for the wingers two tries would have been derided at an age group game never mind international level.
I’m not saying that if they committed to the tackle the scores would have been prevented but we’ll never know because they didn’t.
Tbf to Hogg, he was putting in a shift ball in hand but he was nowhere in defence. I think he needs to be told new teeth or not show a pair and put in a hit. If not it’s time to pass the reigns to Smith or Blairhorn.


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Post by BigGee Mon 14 Nov 2022, 4:25 pm

Watson and Sutherland out of the squad and Ritchie Gray cited, so probably will be out next weekend as well.

Callum Hunter-Hill comes into the squad, he has been playing well and regularly for Sarries this season.

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Post by bsando Mon 14 Nov 2022, 6:42 pm

Great call up, he's been playing well! Hope he can impress the coaches.

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Post by jimbopip Tue 15 Nov 2022, 9:45 am

Morning peeps.
Here's my, slightly askew view of things.
The Criminal Element beat us by one point because we missed a last minute penalty. Same Criminals lost to Big Gee's in-laws because they missed a last minute kick at goal. Wafer thin margins. We are not rubbish because of that loss: the Azzuri are not world beaters because they won. The Criminal Element are coached by Cowboy Dave so they are on the road to Hell In A Handcart.

We beat Fiji, comfortably but then who doesn't.

We are all very miffed and lacking in Joie de vivre because we didn't beat the All Blacks. Is that not a good place to be ? hey were bloody lucky to get away with that win. Frank Murphy continues to operate as a one man Clownshoes tribute act; the turnover for their second try came about after Whitelock stopped VDM with a no arms shoulder straight to the middle of his chest, a penalty all day long. There were lots of other "eccentric" decisions, but my middle name is not Rassie so censored
Yes we gave away penalties within 5 metres of their line, yes Hoggy should have passed to ADHD sooner...infuriating but fixable. If we meet the Blackness in the QF's can we beat them? I think we can.
The AI's should be about learning things.
Ashman should be in the WC squad.
Turner needs to work on his arrows.
RG is still capable of mixing it with the best.
Ritchie keeps improving.
6. Fagerson 7.Mbawza 8. Boxer could be a very good way to close out a game.
Dancer is by far the best 10 we have. Don't bother playing him in the 6 N's let him rest up and be hungry for the WC.
Hopefully, by February Hamish, Darge and the Mullet will be fit and fighting for the 7 jersey.
Hogg looks slightly jaded and maybe Smith and Blairhorn could be running out at 15 in the 6N's.

I'm seeing positives, but I also recognise there are areas to be worked on. Ale it's half full by the way but we can refill it.

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Post by Tramptastic Tue 15 Nov 2022, 9:51 am

Agree with all jimbo except the attention you've given to everything in the context of the world cup.

We aren't progressing from the pool stages. We struggle against power teams, Ireland and South Africa being 2 incredibly physical sides so, we just aren't progressing.

In this regard we should be playing Russell in the six nations with the intention of trying to win the bloomin thing. I'd much rather we made serious inroads in a realistic silverware situation instead of "We rested Russell, didnt achieve anything in the six nations of note, Russell is keen for the world cup but we still got punted out at the pool stages".

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Post by jimbopip Tue 15 Nov 2022, 2:48 pm

Very true, Mr Tastic. I don't think Toonie is any closer to having a genuine second choice at 10. Dancer's inside pass to Hoggy for the penalty try looked simple but it was way above anything Blarehorn has done this autumn. Either Toonie gives Blarehorn, Haircut or A N Other gametime in the 6N's or we run the risk of an injured Dancer. OR we put all the chips on red and go full pelt at the 6N's. We win it and go into the WC on a high and even if we collapse like FES when Liz T insisted she wanted Quasi Mental to help them go for growth, it wouldn't matter because we were 6N champions. OR we go full pelt, come third and suffer four or five crucial injuries.
Poor Toonie. Maybe he'll find a way to win both.

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Post by Highland Shaun Tue 15 Nov 2022, 9:05 pm

Selection is going to be interesting for Saturday so does anyone fancy a stab at guessing what it could be :P.

I'm hoping Hunter-Hill gets in the matchday 23

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Post by BigGee Tue 15 Nov 2022, 9:45 pm

Gilchrist has played 3 games, so might be due a rest, freeing up a spot in the row. That might become two if RG gets a ban.

In the back row, Fagerson and Ritchie have played all three as well. One of them, probably MF might benefit from a rest as well.

Surely Ben White is due a start. Maybe with Hornito on the bench.

Redpath may well come back into the equation for this one, Finn is likely to start if he does not get called bsck to France.

A good argument to let Smith get another crack at FB as well.

This may be Toonie last chance to try a few other combos before the WC warm ups. Surely he has to take it despite the nerd to win this match.

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Post by George Carlin Wed 16 Nov 2022, 6:01 am

Chat coming out of the Scotland camp is that Richie won't be banned for this next game.
I'm not sure on what basis they think that!
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Post by jimbopip Wed 16 Nov 2022, 6:49 am

It's high grade legalese that has pushed your hourly rate into the Elon Musk pay grade, isn't it GC?

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Post by George Carlin Wed 16 Nov 2022, 7:42 am

jimbopip wrote:It's high grade legalese that has pushed your hourly rate into the Elon Musk pay grade, isn't it GC?
Staggers me how you can know these things. Hero
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Post by Hazel Sapling Wed 16 Nov 2022, 9:29 am

What I am somewhat hoping for

Bhatti - Ashman - Zander (Schoeman - Brown - Walker)
Hunter-Hill - J Gray (R Gray)
Ritchie - Dempsey - Crosbie (Christie or Bayliss)

White - Russell (Price - Thompson)
Redpath - Harris
McLean - Hogg - Graham (DVDM)

Plenty of impact off the bench, not complete wholesale changes. The backs look a little lightweight so could see Tuipulotu at 12 as a non-negative to provide more ballast

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Post by RDW Wed 16 Nov 2022, 10:22 am

Surely, SURELY he'll not pick Price to start. Over the last 3-4 years he must have started in his position more than anyone else in the squad It makes England's continual selection of Youngs look silly.

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Post by jimbopip Wed 16 Nov 2022, 10:26 am

George Carlin wrote:
jimbopip wrote:It's high grade legalese that has pushed your hourly rate into the Elon Musk pay grade, isn't it GC?
Staggers me MrsPip how you can know these anything. Hero
Fixed that for you.

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Post by jimbopip Wed 16 Nov 2022, 10:29 am

Hazel Sapling wrote:What I am somewhat hoping for

Bhatti - Ashman - Zander (Schoeman - Brown - Walker)
Hunter-Hill - J Gray (R Gray)
Ritchie - Dempsey - Crosbie (Christie or Bayliss)

White - Russell (Price - Thompson)
Redpath - Harris
McLean - Hogg - Graham (DVDM)

Plenty of impact off the bench, not complete wholesale changes. The backs look a little lightweight so could see Tuipulotu at 12 as a non-negative to provide more ballast

Good side OK
From a Glasgow perspective I would like Ragnar to have a rest, we have four tough matches coming up. Maybe start Old Man Nel. Probably Hornito on the bench. Then possibly Smith rather than Hogg. Blarehorn to bench rather than VDM.

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Post by BigGee Wed 16 Nov 2022, 11:13 am

There is no way he is not going to play Blairhorn, either starting or benching.

Thompson and Mclean just need to get back to Glasgow and get some rugby under their belts, can't see either of them playing.

Nel and Walker could cover the TH though if he wants to give Zander a rest.

In truth 4 internationals in 4 weeks is a lot for snyone.

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Post by tigertattie Wed 16 Nov 2022, 8:55 pm

Ah well. Big Ritchie is out for Saturday. He and little Ritchie were my players of the series so far so he’ll be a big loss. Really hoping he can make it to the next World Cup
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Post by sensisball Wed 16 Nov 2022, 9:23 pm

Hopefully that means Gray the younger and Gilchrist start with Hunter Hill on the bench. Think HH is overdue a go and he seems the kind of huge and physical lock that could actually be a good impact forward for us. Fingers crossed!

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Post by jimbopip Thu 17 Nov 2022, 10:22 am

Apparently, against The Blackness Harris touched the ball 3 times. Yes, three times. He passed twice and ran once; for a net gain of ZERO metres.

I can only imagine the opposition defence coaches telling their players, "If they get it to 13 don't bother with him just drift out because FEs will be voting for the Socialist Workers' Party before he runs in a try."
Mind you, it's not as if angel  or Not A Pony could be running in tries either. Neither of them have any track record in that regard.

Shona is a better attacking 13 than Harris.
Seaman is a better attacking 13 than ah you get the idea doncha?

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Post by jimbopip Thu 17 Nov 2022, 2:44 pm

Team's out...
Wee Gray in for Big Gray.
Boxer starts.
That's it.
Shona still at 12. Harris at non scoring 13.

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Post by BigGee Thu 17 Nov 2022, 3:00 pm

Scotland team to face Argentina in the Autumn Nations Series on Saturday 19 November at BT Murrayfield, kick-off 3.15pm, live on Amazon Prime Video.
15. Stuart Hogg (Exeter Chiefs) 95 caps
14. Darcy Graham (Edinburgh Rugby) 32 caps
13. Chris Harris – Vice Captain – (Gloucester Rugby) 38 caps
12. Sione Tuipulotu (Glasgow Warriors) 10 caps
11. Duhan van der Merwe (Edinburgh Rugby) 22 caps
10. Finn Russell (Racing 92) 64 caps
9. Ali Price (Glasgow Warriors) 57 caps

1. Pierre Schoeman (Edinburgh Rugby) 15 caps
2. Fraser Brown (Glasgow Warriors) 56 caps
3. Zander Fagerson (Glasgow Warriors) 53 caps
4.Jonny Gray (Exeter Chiefs) 71 caps
5. Grant Gilchrist – Vice Captain – (Edinburgh Rugby) 58 caps
6. Matt Fagerson (Glasgow Warriors) 27 caps
7. Jamie Ritchie – Captain – (Edinburgh Rugby) 35 caps
8. Jack Dempsey (Glasgow Warriors) 3 caps

Replacements

16. George Turner (Glasgow Warriors) 29 caps
17. Jamie Bhatti (Glasgow Warriors) 23 caps
18. Murphy Walker (Glasgow Warriors) 1 cap
19. Glen Young (Edinburgh Rugby) 2 caps
20. Andy Christie (Saracens) 3 caps
21. Ben White (London Irish) 8 caps
22. Blair Kinghorn (Edinburgh Rugby) 37 caps
23. Cameron Redpath (Bath Rugby) 3 caps

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Post by BigGee Thu 17 Nov 2022, 3:05 pm

Bit disappointed that ben White, in particular does not get a start, but Price did up his game last weekend I guess.

Ashman, I imagine is injured, I think they said he was carrying a knock last weekend.

Good to see Christie get another cap.

Maybe we will see Redpath come on at 12 and Sione move out to 13 at some stage in the second half. I still think that might be our best centre combo at the moment.


A very limited roll of the dice from Toonie though, mostly caused by injury and suspension in any case. He clearly wants and needs to win this game and that is the priority over trying out any more combos. All in all we have been putting out a pretty settled team this autumn.


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Post by Heuer27 Thu 17 Nov 2022, 3:06 pm

I take it Ashman is injured. Turner on the bench. Redpath back in at 23 covers12,13 &10 at a push. Blairhorn on the bench too. That’s basically the full back line covered by two subs. Turner Bhatti and Walker, Young, Christie and White complete the bench.

Would really like Walker and White to get some decent minutes.
Young and Christie too to see if they can cut it.


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Post by George Carlin Thu 17 Nov 2022, 5:05 pm

I see that Chris Harris is Vice Captain of Inertia too.

Are you really telling me that Redpath was available against the Blackness but we didn't choose him? Surely not.
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Post by tigertattie Thu 17 Nov 2022, 6:26 pm

Correct GC, he simply wasn’t picked.

Why we insist with Sione at 12 in a beyond me. I’d not even have him in at 13 but he’s deffo not a 12. Harris at 13 I have no problem with as he’s never let us down, he was a key man even in the lions backline. He does distribute and score tries for Gloucester so it’s not an issue with him, it’s our game plan and also who is at 12.

I know it’s an argument for another time, but some of our sections are bonkers. Can you imagine the likes of Dingwall sitting at home tossing up to pick Scotland or England and seeing folk like Tuipulotu getting the nod for Scotland. Even id pick England if looking at that.
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