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Worcester and Wasps, WTF?

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Post by Intotouch Thu Sep 29, 2022 8:53 pm

First topic message reminder :

And no, I don’t mean “welcome to Facebook” .
I logged onto the forum a few days ago to learn more about what has happened to these clubs expecting to a thread on this. But I had to write one instead. (Should I have used the title “who cares”?)

After listening to an OTB interview with an English reporter on the subject I gather that no staff working at Worcester have been paid for months, including those on low wages who will have missed mortgage payments and since their finances/ accounts still haven’t been properly kept they can’t yet be sold so there’s no hope of a white knight rescuing them. Their finances were completely mismanaged. Wasps appear to be in a better position and although they’ll be relegated will continue to exist. They are struggling to pay a tax bill and a debt incurred when they moved to London. (I thought this sounded weird, why move to a crazy expensive city packed with other sports teams?)

Below is an interesting article from the BBC on this topic.
https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/63053674
What shocked me about this article is the following: “ One club owner, who spoke on condition of anonymity, told BBC Sport: "I don't think there's one owner who'd tell you the model is working. It's completely flawed." Bristol Bears owner Stephen Lansdown recently said there is "just not enough money in the game,” If this is true, why is it true?

In the meantime , other clubs in the prem have voted to increase the salary cap at a time when many clubs are struggling with debts. This all sounds seriously worrying and suggests that clubs in the prem will soon have bigger financial problems in the future trying to pay even more in wages. Which suggests that more will start to go bust. And they voted to increase the salary cap? Am I missing something here or is this as dysfunctional as it sounds? And how can there not be enough money in the game in England? Rugby fans from other countries also regularly say how great the competition is, fans are absolutely showing up to see it, the competition is healthy, tv contracts are in place, cvc threw money at it recently. In theory things should be great. So….Welcome to Facebook?

(By the way this thread isn’t an invitation to slam the premiership or gloat. We are all rugby fans first and foremost and this could just as easily happen to your own club.)

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Post by formerly known as Sam Thu Oct 13, 2022 2:45 pm

propdavid_london wrote:Do we have any indication on which other 2 clubs are also struggling?

Or even if two other clubs are struggling.

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Post by mikey_dragon Thu Oct 13, 2022 2:47 pm

Leicester?

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Post by formerly known as Sam Thu Oct 13, 2022 2:48 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:This is a disaster how is this being allowed to happen? Rugby cannot afford to lose clubs of this size.

What's your solution? The RFU can't own and run 13 pro clubs. So private owners have to pick up the tab.

This rare occurence is the price a club pays for indepdence with no Union interference.
Rare? That's Wuss, Wasps, Leeds, London Scottish and London Welsh off the top of my head (I'm sure there's more) that's gone bust and that's just England! There's something seriously wrong with the way club rugby is being run at the minute.

So 5 times in 25 years or so of professionalism?

There's no other way round it. The RFU doesn't have a spare £100m per annum to run these clubs.You have good owners, you have bad owners.
I said off the top of my head... There's also Moseley, Waterloo, Orrell, Richmond, Coventry, West Hartlepool and Old Elthamians. With rumours of Sale, Newcastle and London Irish in trouble. I like the way you just shrug your shoulders as of its nothing... If this happened in the celtic league you'd be all over this and calling the competition a sham. You bash the league your supposed club plays in for a hell of a lot less.

It's not the league's fault if owners want to asset strip a club and make it go under. This is always going to be the risk if you're club is independently owned. This isn't a new thing.

The RFU can propose central contracts - how is that going to help the likes of London Irish and Worcester? Do they have loads of England players?

It's not the leagues job to vet whether owners are capable of running a club or whether a club is sustainable? Interesting.

Odd response. Any investor can wake up one morning and decide to sell off parts of things they own. How are they supposed to know if perfectly able, wealthy investors will change their mind and asset strip a club? The Duckworths handed it over to reliable owners.They were vetted. It happens in pro sport. Well, normal pro sport leagues that is, not ones that have organisations running multiple entrants.

They weren't vetted very well. One of them is currently banned from using his law qualification due to ethical mishaps before taking over at Wuss. A more detailed League based due diligence really does need to be one of the outcomes of this debacle though a lot of the issues are down to Covid.

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Post by Rugby Fan Thu Oct 13, 2022 2:48 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:The Duckworths handed it over to reliable owners.They were vetted.

Simon Massie-Taylor recently conceded rugby's vetting process is not fit for purpose. One rugby podcast suggested the vetting questionnaires are skimpy, compared with football equivalents. Rugby also seemed to put stock in the fact Worcester directors said they passed football vetting, when that may not have been true.


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Post by formerly known as Sam Thu Oct 13, 2022 2:50 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:Leicester?

We had a long term financing arrangement in place last I heard. The new hotel is open on which Tigers are paid rent. Not impossible as there's no wealthy backer writing cheques to bankroll the club but I'd be surprised if it was us. If we are in trouble then no home game if significance until 27th Nov is going to really push cashflow to the limit.

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Post by RugbyFan100 Thu Oct 13, 2022 2:57 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:This is a disaster how is this being allowed to happen? Rugby cannot afford to lose clubs of this size.

What's your solution? The RFU can't own and run 13 pro clubs. So private owners have to pick up the tab.

This rare occurence is the price a club pays for indepdence with no Union interference.
Rare? That's Wuss, Wasps, Leeds, London Scottish and London Welsh off the top of my head (I'm sure there's more) that's gone bust and that's just England! There's something seriously wrong with the way club rugby is being run at the minute.

So 5 times in 25 years or so of professionalism?

There's no other way round it. The RFU doesn't have a spare £100m per annum to run these clubs.You have good owners, you have bad owners.
I said off the top of my head... There's also Moseley, Waterloo, Orrell, Richmond, Coventry, West Hartlepool and Old Elthamians. With rumours of Sale, Newcastle and London Irish in trouble. I like the way you just shrug your shoulders as of its nothing... If this happened in the celtic league you'd be all over this and calling the competition a sham. You bash the league your supposed club plays in for a hell of a lot less.

It's not the league's fault if owners want to asset strip a club and make it go under. This is always going to be the risk if you're club is independently owned. This isn't a new thing.

The RFU can propose central contracts - how is that going to help the likes of London Irish and Worcester? Do they have loads of England players?

It's not the leagues job to vet whether owners are capable of running a club or whether a club is sustainable? Interesting.

Odd response. Any investor can wake up one morning and decide to sell off parts of things they own. How are they supposed to know if perfectly able, wealthy investors will change their mind and asset strip a club? The Duckworths handed it over to reliable owners.They were vetted. It happens in pro sport. Well, normal pro sport leagues that is, not ones that have organisations running multiple entrants.

They weren't vetted very well. One of them is currently banned from using his law qualification due to ethical mishaps before taking over at Wuss. A more detailed League based due diligence really does need to be one of the outcomes of this debacle though a lot of the issues are down to Covid.

So he should have been forbidden to own a rugby club based on that? That doesn't have any bearing on whether the owners would pile cash in or asset strip a club. What about Wasps? Were their owners not fit for purpose too? How do you decide?

Everyone's looking for blame. Everyone's sayng the system has to change, and there's not one credible solution. Because this is how it works. Clubs go to the wall.

At the end of the day, not allowing certain individuals to take over clubs may cause more harm than good.

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Post by RugbyFan100 Thu Oct 13, 2022 2:58 pm

Rugby Fan wrote: One rugby podcast suggested the vetting questionnaires are skimpy, compared with football equivalents.



So Newcastle Utds owners are in the model we want to follow, right?

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Post by LordDowlais Thu Oct 13, 2022 3:30 pm

Rob Baxter is backing a 10 team premiership:-

10-team Premiership backed Exeter director of rugby Rob Baxter says a 10-team Premiership could be the best way to ensure England's top tier thrives in the future. All 13 Premiership shareholding clubs have been in the top flight since Saracens' promotion in 2021. "I thought it was madness to go to 13," Baxter told the BBC of the changes in the wake of the pandemic which saw no side relegated for the past two seasons. "Going to 13 in a weird kind of way almost signed a warrant for someone to not be able to stay in there. Before anything else it doesn't make any common sense and it wrecks the calendar anyway." When asked what his ideal number of teams would be, Baxter said he could see a case for a reduced number to what is currently in place now. "I would have always said 12 if I'm honest with you, because that was the structure we grew into and got used to playing in. I would say 10, because the reasons of the pressure is coming on in all kinds of ways now. "You've got clashes with international rugby, and I genuinely think Premiership supporters are wanting to see more of their competitive games with more of their high-profile players. I think that is a genuine wish, and there's some genuine frustration. "A league of 10 home and away, with their international commitments and a cup competition for the guys not involved in internationals, starts to sound very common sense. Obviously alongside that you've got the commercial pressures of less home games, but then hopefully what you do is you attract bigger crowds to a better spectacle." wrote:

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Post by geoff999rugby Thu Oct 13, 2022 3:43 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:This is a disaster how is this being allowed to happen? Rugby cannot afford to lose clubs of this size.

What's your solution? The RFU can't own and run 13 pro clubs. So private owners have to pick up the tab.

This rare occurence is the price a club pays for indepdence with no Union interference.
Rare? That's Wuss, Wasps, Leeds, London Scottish and London Welsh off the top of my head (I'm sure there's more) that's gone bust and that's just England! There's something seriously wrong with the way club rugby is being run at the minute.

So 5 times in 25 years or so of professionalism?

There's no other way round it. The RFU doesn't have a spare £100m per annum to run these clubs.You have good owners, you have bad owners.


Actually it is six - you need to include Richmond

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Post by geoff999rugby Thu Oct 13, 2022 3:49 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:Worcester and Coventry aren't really considered rugby areas. I'm not sure what it was like for Wasps before they moved away from London/High Wycombe.

Anyway, Cardiff and Scarlets move a step closer Wink.

Might need to reread your history of English club rugby.

Pre professionalism Coventry were one of the leading team who lost out in the scramble to professionalism.

A number of Lions on their books - noty least, but not confined to David Duckham and Fran Cotton.



As to the Cardiff and Scarlets idea, which I suspect has more to do with wishful thinking than reality.
I simple cant see the other URC nations finding it acceptable and Wales will be told if 2 leave, all leave.

Would give 12 teams left and no need for Conferences or 2 two Conferences of 6.

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Post by Cumbrian Thu Oct 13, 2022 3:55 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
propdavid_london wrote:Do we have any indication on which other 2 clubs are also struggling?

Or even if two other clubs are struggling.

My mate believes it is Irish, he didn't say where he heard, but seemed pretty convinced by it.
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Post by RugbyFan100 Thu Oct 13, 2022 3:58 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote: Your blase attitude to this is hilarious.

Not blase, just realistic. Perhaps it's because my club is faced with this type of existential threat due to finances, on an almost annual basis. Whilst the 4 pro clubs in your coutry just got €68,000,000 to spend on players and coaches alone this year.

If anyones blase it's the richest of the rich who don't even have a salary cap.

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Post by RugbyFan100 Thu Oct 13, 2022 3:58 pm

Cumbrian wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
propdavid_london wrote:Do we have any indication on which other 2 clubs are also struggling?

Or even if two other clubs are struggling.

My mate believes it is Irish, he didn't say where he heard, but seemed pretty convinced by it.

Irish and Newcastle

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Post by Rugby Fan Thu Oct 13, 2022 4:01 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote: One rugby podcast suggested the vetting questionnaires are skimpy, compared with football equivalents.


So Newcastle Utds owners are in the model we want to follow, right?

I'm mostly ignorant about football, so don't know what you mean there. As for "model", that seems like the right question, and not one rugby has ever properly posed.

Complicating matters further, is the way the sporting and entertainment landscape has changed so much since rugby went professional. In short, adult male participation in team sports has dropped almost everywhere in the world.

There is a model for a successful, professional, contact sport, which most people give up playing after school or further education. American Football. When rugby when professional, it was still a very popular community sport, with little in common with the NFL. However, as the physicality in rugby has increased, there are more similarities. One of the reasons rugby participation in New Zealand has fallen off a cliff, is that underpowered players drop out of rugby much earlier.

If rugby is mostly going to be a gladiatorial contact sport for the strongest and fittest, rather than a community sport, then it needs to cut its cloth accordingly.

If we don't want that, then we need to make sure that the community game came still be played by average enthusiasts, which means making it less dangerous than it currently is.

I often hear people from the "rugby is going soft" side of the argument, that big hits are one of the key appeals of the sport. This always surprises me, because, years ago, big hits were notable for their rarity. When I played in the amateur era, I knew I could be wiped out by the occasional hospital pass but that never scared me. What put the fear of god into me, was what went on in rucks and mauls. That's where there was real jeopardy. Big hits weren't a thing because, outside of a fearless JPR Williams, or a later Mickey Skinner, offensive tackles were not that common.

That makes me believe there is still a version of rugby which can be an attractive professional proposition, without losing community participation.

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Post by geoff999rugby Thu Oct 13, 2022 4:06 pm

Newcastle United are owned by a country whose leader orders the killing of someone in their embassies.
A country with some of the most repressive and barbaric laws in the world

Not a model to be recommended

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Post by formerly known as Sam Thu Oct 13, 2022 4:10 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
Cumbrian wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
propdavid_london wrote:Do we have any indication on which other 2 clubs are also struggling?

Or even if two other clubs are struggling.

My mate believes it is Irish, he didn't say where he heard, but seemed pretty convinced by it.

Irish and Newcastle

The rumours have been passed round but as far as I'm aware they started with Jim Hamilton hinting he'd heard something then it's been parroted by various publications.

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Post by Brendan Thu Oct 13, 2022 4:25 pm

Irish Londoner wrote:So what happens at the end of this season?
Wasps and Wuss go down to the Championship leaving eleven in the Premiership - is there going to be promotion for any of the Championship teams or are PRL going to hide behind the "ground standards" issue yet again?
Would next season be a good time for the RFU, PRL and the clubs to "take stock" of the situation across the board and start looking at a complete overhaul of the league system and club/player funding, with the new structure to be in place in 2024 - after the RWC.
The whole professional structure needs a root and branch reform at top level - league set up, player wages/salary caps, stadium requirements, central contracts, nothing should be off the table - has anyone got the power/will to make it happen?

Both will be relegated. Then they and the other championship clubs will apply for the 3 promotion spots to bring back to 14. Prem will review the applications and as long as both teams can get their house in order, and the 3 best application that meet the standard will come up.

That is what I think

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Post by Brendan Thu Oct 13, 2022 4:30 pm

With two teams resting even without Wasps each week can't some smart person come up with some comp for teams to play.

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Post by LeinsterFan4life Thu Oct 13, 2022 5:00 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote: Your blase attitude to this is hilarious.

Not blase, just realistic. Perhaps it's because my club is faced with this type of existential threat due to finances, on an almost annual basis. Whilst the 4 pro clubs in your coutry just got €68,000,000 to spend on players and coaches alone this year.

If anyones blase it's the richest of the rich who don't even have a salary cap.
You've finally brought the Irish provinces into this somehow well done...

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Post by mikey_dragon Thu Oct 13, 2022 6:32 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:Worcester and Coventry aren't really considered rugby areas. I'm not sure what it was like for Wasps before they moved away from London/High Wycombe.

Anyway, Cardiff and Scarlets move a step closer Wink.

Might need to reread your history of English club rugby.

Pre professionalism Coventry were one of the leading team who lost out in the scramble to professionalism.

A number of Lions on their books - noty least, but not confined to David Duckham and Fran Cotton.



As to the Cardiff and Scarlets idea, which I suspect has more to do with wishful thinking than reality.
I simple cant see the other URC nations finding it acceptable and Wales will be told if 2 leave, all leave.

Would give 12 teams left and no need for Conferences or 2 two Conferences of 6.

Ah right so prior to professionalism then, not relevant. As far as I’m aware they aren’t big rugby areas. Contrast with Exeter, it pretty much has the whole of Devon and South Wales to garner support and players from.

You Irish are a bit worried about that other rumour, aren’t you? Don’t worry, I’m sure we’ll stay put to continue the mud-slinging.

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Post by mikey_dragon Thu Oct 13, 2022 6:34 pm

Rumour doing the rounds currently is Vincent Koch to Dragons.

Our TH stable will be decent next year with Vincent Koch, Dillon Lewis, Leon Brown and Lloyd Fairbrother.

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Post by LeinsterFan4life Thu Oct 13, 2022 7:05 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:Worcester and Coventry aren't really considered rugby areas. I'm not sure what it was like for Wasps before they moved away from London/High Wycombe.

Anyway, Cardiff and Scarlets move a step closer Wink.

Might need to reread your history of English club rugby.

Pre professionalism Coventry were one of the leading team who lost out in the scramble to professionalism.

A number of Lions on their books - noty least, but not confined to David Duckham and Fran Cotton.



As to the Cardiff and Scarlets idea, which I suspect has more to do with wishful thinking than reality.
I simple cant see the other URC nations finding it acceptable and Wales will be told if 2 leave, all leave.

Would give 12 teams left and no need for Conferences or 2 two Conferences of 6.

Ah right so prior to professionalism then, not relevant. As far as I’m aware they aren’t big rugby areas. Contrast with Exeter, it pretty much has the whole of Devon and South Wales to garner support and players from.

You Irish are a bit worried about that other rumour, aren’t you? Don’t worry, I’m sure we’ll stay put to continue the mud-slinging.
Worcester had an average attendance of 10k, if that's not a rugby area, there aren't many rugby areas out there Shocked

I don't see why that would worry us? The SA sides joining has been a game changer (I was against it in the beginning for various reasons). Leinster just had their best attendance in 10 years outside of Euro games and interpros against the Sharks and every game feels like a must win, which has never happened before. The Welsh leaving just allows the league to become a simple round Robin.

If the Welsh feel like joining the English league is the best way to go, they should do it. If it benefits both parties it should happen. It seems like a win win.

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Post by LeinsterFan4life Thu Oct 13, 2022 7:11 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:Rumour doing the rounds currently is Vincent Koch to Dragons.

Our TH stable will be decent next year with Vincent Koch, Dillon Lewis, Leon Brown and Lloyd Fairbrother.
.


Last edited by LeinsterFan4life on Thu Oct 13, 2022 8:27 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by formerly known as Sam Thu Oct 13, 2022 8:14 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:Rumour doing the rounds currently is Vincent Koch to Dragons.

Our TH stable will be decent next year with Vincent Koch, Dillon Lewis, Leon Brown and Lloyd Fairbrother.

laughing

Very good.

Worcester is a rugby town, it's not a big place but it's all rugby there. Just like it is 38 mins down the road in Gloucester.

Coventry has both a Prem and Championship rugby side. One of the reasons Wasps moved there was because there's an appetite for rugby there. The reason Wasps have two men and a dog in the stands is that it's tough trying to build up a new fan base in an area where the people are deeply divided over the stadium you moved into. If the first action of Wasps had been to offer a Coventry City a way back in and to declare a blue and white away kit then it could have been different.

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Post by Welshmushroom Fri Oct 14, 2022 8:03 am

Side question. I know Worcester have been removed from them Premiership and the players have left so I would imagine they will be unable to play the challenge cup either.

Have EPCR said what will happen. Will teams scheduled get 10 points for both legs?

Also is this the same with Wasps or are they going to play these games?

Wasn't sure if the RFU are able to remove teams from Europe as well.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri Oct 14, 2022 8:10 am

They won't play full stop. Insurance would have seen to that anyway. Haven't seen any announcement re what will happen when they don't fulfil the fixtures but it'll be the same as covid postponements so was that 20 point wins?

BBC report on PRL and RFU:

Premiership Rugby and the Rugby Football Union have called for more financial transparency in the wake of Wasps and Worcester's plight.

Wasps are set to enter administration and have been suspended from the Premiership, one week after fellow top-flight club Worcester were wound up.

Rugby authorities say the English game must be given "stronger foundations".

"It is our responsibility to set a more sustainable path for club rugby," said Premiership CEO Simon Massie-Taylor.

"This was on the agenda already, but we need to now accelerate the work we are doing with our clubs, the RFU, and other stakeholders across the game."

In a joint statement, the Premiership and RFU said they are "working together to examine a range of options", with the "structure of the league" and "visibility of financial information" under consideration.

LISTEN: What happens next at Wasps?
Exeter boss Baxter suggests 10-team Premiership
Both Massie-Taylor and RFU chief executive Bill Sweeney described Wasps' likely move into administration as "a very sad day for English rugby".

"Two professional clubs facing financial difficulties is a clear barometer of the challenges being felt by the economy, sport and rugby union specifically," Sweeney added.

"The economic environment has compounded these challenges and there is a clear need for more financial transparency from all clubs together, with collective long-term investment and planning for the benefit of the professional game overall."

Wasps have twice filed notice to get insolvency experts in to help with their debts, which run to tens of millions of pounds.

The Coventry-based club will not fulfil this Saturday's Premiership game at Exeter and say they expect to enter administration "within days".

Worcester were suspended and relegated to the Championship for next season last week, a day after players and staff had their contracts terminated, though the club are appealing against the punishments.

Wasps would also face relegation were they to go into administration as, under RFU rules, any club that enters administration is automatically relegated next season unless they can prove it was a no-fault insolvency.

Wasps had been hopeful of securing new funding to help with a £35m debt owed to bond holders following their relocation from London in 2014, as well as HM Revenue and Customs pursuing them for unpaid taxes.

Andrew asks Premiership and RFU to join forces
Rob Andrew
Rob Andrew served Wasps as a player before working at the RFU
Speaking before Thursday's Premiership and RFU statement, former Wasps and England fly-half Rob Andrew said the bodies should join forces to address financial problems within the game.

"This has come to a watershed," he told BBC Radio 4's Today programme.

"The RFU and Premiership Rugby have to get together and work out how this is going to go forward.

"Ultimately this is a failing of the governance of the game - both the Premiership owners and the RFU to a degree. But to be fair to the RFU, they have no visibility on these businesses.

"And that's the thing, the two have to come together and find a new way. They have to do this. We've had clubs go bust before - London Scottish, Richmond, London Welsh - but not of the scale of this and the devastation."

Andrew had two spells at Wasps as a player and later held senior roles at the RFU, first as director of elite rugby and then director of professional rugby.

Now chief executive of Sussex County Cricket Club, he believes the financial problems in rugby union have been brewing for some time.

"It's probably been coming. The game has not been on a solid footing for quite some time," added Andrew.

"This is unsustainable and you can't have a professional sport that falls into this point where two very big clubs go into administration, and the consequences of that are just not acceptable. It needs resolving.

"I was at the RFU for 10 years, part of that trying to get hold of this by the scruff of the neck. The challenge is that Premiership clubs are effectively self-governing and are privately owned businesses.

"The irony is that the rugby on the field, from the players and coaches, has probably never been better. But these are private businesses and they're getting into financial difficulty."

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Post by PhilBB Fri Oct 14, 2022 9:20 am

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
Worcester had an average attendance of 10k, if that's not a rugby area, there aren't many rugby areas out there Shocked

I don't see why that would worry us? The SA sides joining has been a game changer (I was against it in the beginning for various reasons). Leinster just had their best attendance in 10 years outside of Euro games and interpros against the Sharks and every game feels like a must win, which has never happened before. The Welsh leaving just allows the league to become a simple round Robin.

If the Welsh feel like joining the English league is the best way to go, they should do it. If it benefits both parties it should happen. It seems like a win win.

Worcester never had an average of 10k.

21-22 = 6,934 https://www.cardiffrfcfans.com/fix.php?clubID=33&seasonID=27
19-20 = 8,058 https://www.cardiffrfcfans.com/fix.php?seasonID=25&clubID=33
18-19 = 7,981 https://www.cardiffrfcfans.com/fix.php?seasonID=24&clubID=33
17-18 = 8,011 https://www.cardiffrfcfans.com/fix.php?seasonID=23&clubID=33

They did average 8,982 in 2011-12 and 9,374 in 2009-10. 9,512 in 2008-09 but they have never averaged 10k.

Leinster got 16,884 against Cell C Sharks.

You're right that the Welsh leaving is the biggest win-win of all.
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Post by formerly known as Sam Fri Oct 14, 2022 9:29 am

Welshmushroom wrote:Side question.  I know Worcester have been removed from them Premiership and the players have left so I would imagine they will be unable to play the challenge cup either.  

Have EPCR said what will happen.  Will teams scheduled get 10 points for both legs?

Also is this the same with Wasps or are they going to play these games?

Wasn't sure if the RFU are able to remove teams from Europe as well.

There's no Worcester team to play even if they weren't thrown out. I imagine the EPCR are looking at trying to find a side from a developing nation with the ability to join the competition instead. That would provide exposure and help grow the game a bit.

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Post by mikey_dragon Fri Oct 14, 2022 9:36 am

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:Rumour doing the rounds currently is Vincent Koch to Dragons.

Our TH stable will be decent next year with Vincent Koch, Dillon Lewis, Leon Brown and Lloyd Fairbrother.
.

I already read this. You're right it is a good coup for Dragons and would bring a lot to the league!

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Post by Welshmushroom Fri Oct 14, 2022 9:37 am

I hope your right. Otherwise Lions, Treviso, Dragons & Bayonne will get a 10 point buffer in Pool B.

That would make it difficult for Scarlets, Pau, Cheetahs & Stade Francais to qualify in the remaining two spots.

They will need to address this because Pool B looks like it could end up a farce.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri Oct 14, 2022 9:42 am

PhilBB wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:
Worcester had an average attendance of 10k, if that's not a rugby area, there aren't many rugby areas out there Shocked

I don't see why that would worry us? The SA sides joining has been a game changer (I was against it in the beginning for various reasons). Leinster just had their best attendance in 10 years outside of Euro games and interpros against the Sharks and every game feels like a must win, which has never happened before. The Welsh leaving just allows the league to become a simple round Robin.

If the Welsh feel like joining the English league is the best way to go, they should do it. If it benefits both parties it should happen. It seems like a win win.

Worcester never had an average of 10k.

21-22 = 6,934 https://www.cardiffrfcfans.com/fix.php?clubID=33&seasonID=27
19-20 = 8,058 https://www.cardiffrfcfans.com/fix.php?seasonID=25&clubID=33
18-19 = 7,981 https://www.cardiffrfcfans.com/fix.php?seasonID=24&clubID=33
17-18 = 8,011 https://www.cardiffrfcfans.com/fix.php?seasonID=23&clubID=33

They did average 8,982 in 2011-12 and 9,374 in 2009-10. 9,512 in 2008-09 but they have never averaged 10k.

Leinster got 16,884 against Cell C Sharks.

You're right that the Welsh leaving is the biggest win-win of all.

Well it's a win for the Welsh, that's about it. Those recent quotes I've posted above offer not even the quietest of hints that the Welsh are a solution to this situation though.

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Post by Welshmushroom Fri Oct 14, 2022 9:42 am

mikey_dragon wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:Rumour doing the rounds currently is Vincent Koch to Dragons.

Our TH stable will be decent next year with Vincent Koch, Dillon Lewis, Leon Brown and Lloyd Fairbrother.
.

I already read this. You're right it is a good coup for Dragons and would bring a lot to the league!

I'm not sure we even need him. I still think some of our real issues stem at the lack of a top quality 9 behind that pack. I'm also unsure of Dixon at 12. It's not that he is bad but if we really could get a upgrade at 9 and 12 I think we really would see us compete right up there.

I'm fairly happy with our pack at the moment as they provide 50/50 ball atm.

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Post by LeinsterFan4life Fri Oct 14, 2022 10:43 am

PhilBB wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:
Worcester had an average attendance of 10k, if that's not a rugby area, there aren't many rugby areas out there Shocked

I don't see why that would worry us? The SA sides joining has been a game changer (I was against it in the beginning for various reasons). Leinster just had their best attendance in 10 years outside of Euro games and interpros against the Sharks and every game feels like a must win, which has never happened before. The Welsh leaving just allows the league to become a simple round Robin.

If the Welsh feel like joining the English league is the best way to go, they should do it. If it benefits both parties it should happen. It seems like a win win.

Worcester never had an average of 10k.

21-22 = 6,934 https://www.cardiffrfcfans.com/fix.php?clubID=33&seasonID=27
19-20 = 8,058 https://www.cardiffrfcfans.com/fix.php?seasonID=25&clubID=33
18-19 = 7,981 https://www.cardiffrfcfans.com/fix.php?seasonID=24&clubID=33
17-18 = 8,011 https://www.cardiffrfcfans.com/fix.php?seasonID=23&clubID=33

They did average 8,982 in 2011-12 and 9,374 in 2009-10. 9,512 in 2008-09 but they have never averaged 10k.

Leinster got 16,884 against Cell C Sharks.

You're right that the Welsh leaving is the biggest win-win of all.
I seen on the aviva website they had an average attendance of 9998, but that must be wrong. Anyway it doesn't take away from the fact its definitely a rugby area even with those figures. Not sure if you were trying to make a point with the Leinster attendance?

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Post by LordDowlais Fri Oct 14, 2022 11:14 am

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:
Worcester had an average attendance of 10k, if that's not a rugby area, there aren't many rugby areas out there Shocked

I don't see why that would worry us? The SA sides joining has been a game changer (I was against it in the beginning for various reasons). Leinster just had their best attendance in 10 years outside of Euro games and interpros against the Sharks and every game feels like a must win, which has never happened before. The Welsh leaving just allows the league to become a simple round Robin.

If the Welsh feel like joining the English league is the best way to go, they should do it. If it benefits both parties it should happen. It seems like a win win.

Worcester never had an average of 10k.

21-22 = 6,934 https://www.cardiffrfcfans.com/fix.php?clubID=33&seasonID=27
19-20 = 8,058 https://www.cardiffrfcfans.com/fix.php?seasonID=25&clubID=33
18-19 = 7,981 https://www.cardiffrfcfans.com/fix.php?seasonID=24&clubID=33
17-18 = 8,011 https://www.cardiffrfcfans.com/fix.php?seasonID=23&clubID=33

They did average 8,982 in 2011-12 and 9,374 in 2009-10. 9,512 in 2008-09 but they have never averaged 10k.

Leinster got 16,884 against Cell C Sharks.

You're right that the Welsh leaving is the biggest win-win of all.
I seen on the aviva website they had an average attendance of 9998, but that must be wrong. Anyway it doesn't take away from the fact its definitely a rugby area even with those figures. Not sure if you were trying to make a point with the Leinster attendance?

Wasn't it you who were saying that the Welsh regions only getting 10K for a derby was poor ?

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Post by Poorfour Fri Oct 14, 2022 11:18 am

Attendance averages will depend on which games you include. League games attract more than prem cup games, and European games are a bit variable depending on the opposition.

It's credible that Worcester were getting 10k for league matches.
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Post by LeinsterFan4life Fri Oct 14, 2022 11:19 am

LordDowlais wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:
Worcester had an average attendance of 10k, if that's not a rugby area, there aren't many rugby areas out there Shocked

I don't see why that would worry us? The SA sides joining has been a game changer (I was against it in the beginning for various reasons). Leinster just had their best attendance in 10 years outside of Euro games and interpros against the Sharks and every game feels like a must win, which has never happened before. The Welsh leaving just allows the league to become a simple round Robin.

If the Welsh feel like joining the English league is the best way to go, they should do it. If it benefits both parties it should happen. It seems like a win win.

Worcester never had an average of 10k.

21-22 = 6,934 https://www.cardiffrfcfans.com/fix.php?clubID=33&seasonID=27
19-20 = 8,058 https://www.cardiffrfcfans.com/fix.php?seasonID=25&clubID=33
18-19 = 7,981 https://www.cardiffrfcfans.com/fix.php?seasonID=24&clubID=33
17-18 = 8,011 https://www.cardiffrfcfans.com/fix.php?seasonID=23&clubID=33

They did average 8,982 in 2011-12 and 9,374 in 2009-10. 9,512 in 2008-09 but they have never averaged 10k.

Leinster got 16,884 against Cell C Sharks.

You're right that the Welsh leaving is the biggest win-win of all.
I seen on the aviva website they had an average attendance of 9998, but that must be wrong. Anyway it doesn't take away from the fact its definitely a rugby area even with those figures. Not sure if you were trying to make a point with the Leinster attendance?

Wasn't it you who were saying that the Welsh regions only getting 10K for a derby was poor ?
Christ here we go...That's not the argument is it? We know that Ilanelli is a "rugby area"

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Post by formerly known as Sam Fri Oct 14, 2022 11:31 am

Poorfour wrote:Attendance averages will depend on which games you include. League games attract more than prem cup games, and European games are a bit variable depending on the opposition.

It's credible that Worcester were getting 10k for league matches.

It's also worth remembering that it's an 11.5k stadium and sometimes the less appealing seats are harder to shift.

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Post by LordDowlais Fri Oct 14, 2022 11:34 am

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:
Worcester had an average attendance of 10k, if that's not a rugby area, there aren't many rugby areas out there Shocked

I don't see why that would worry us? The SA sides joining has been a game changer (I was against it in the beginning for various reasons). Leinster just had their best attendance in 10 years outside of Euro games and interpros against the Sharks and every game feels like a must win, which has never happened before. The Welsh leaving just allows the league to become a simple round Robin.

If the Welsh feel like joining the English league is the best way to go, they should do it. If it benefits both parties it should happen. It seems like a win win.

Worcester never had an average of 10k.

21-22 = 6,934 https://www.cardiffrfcfans.com/fix.php?clubID=33&seasonID=27
19-20 = 8,058 https://www.cardiffrfcfans.com/fix.php?seasonID=25&clubID=33
18-19 = 7,981 https://www.cardiffrfcfans.com/fix.php?seasonID=24&clubID=33
17-18 = 8,011 https://www.cardiffrfcfans.com/fix.php?seasonID=23&clubID=33

They did average 8,982 in 2011-12 and 9,374 in 2009-10. 9,512 in 2008-09 but they have never averaged 10k.

Leinster got 16,884 against Cell C Sharks.

You're right that the Welsh leaving is the biggest win-win of all.
I seen on the aviva website they had an average attendance of 9998, but that must be wrong. Anyway it doesn't take away from the fact its definitely a rugby area even with those figures. Not sure if you were trying to make a point with the Leinster attendance?

Wasn't it you who were saying that the Welsh regions only getting 10K for a derby was poor ?
Christ here we go...That's not the argument is it? We know that Ilanelli is a "rugby area"

But you think it's poor that Welsh clubs can only get that number for games, so why are you now saying that 10K is good all of a sudden ? It's a bit of a contradiction.

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Post by PhilBB Fri Oct 14, 2022 11:35 am

LeinsterFan4life wrote: Not sure if you were trying to make a point with the Leinster attendance?

You wrote "Leinster just had their best attendance in 10 years outside of Euro games and interpros against the Sharks"

What was the crowd on September 25th, 2021, for the Vodacom Bulls game?
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Post by PhilBB Fri Oct 14, 2022 11:38 am

Poorfour wrote:

It's credible that Worcester were getting 10k for league matches.

Did you click on the links?

Two games in 2018 got over the 10k - Gloucester and Harlequins. Nothing since.

Bristol and Bath in 2017 both got over 10k
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Post by PhilBB Fri Oct 14, 2022 11:40 am

LordDowlais wrote:
But you think it's poor that Welsh clubs can only get that number for games, so why are you now saying that 10K is good all of a sudden ? It's a bit of a contradiction.

The average Scarlets v Cardiff crowd is 8.4k (with 2 games from last century not having a published attendance figure)

https://www.cardiffrfcfans.com/analysis/6067.php?homeTeamID=26&awayTeamID=1
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Post by LordDowlais Fri Oct 14, 2022 11:42 am

PhilBB wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
But you think it's poor that Welsh clubs can only get that number for games, so why are you now saying that 10K is good all of a sudden ? It's a bit of a contradiction.

The average Scarlets v Cardiff crowd is 8.4k (with 2 games from last century not having a published attendance figure)

https://www.cardiffrfcfans.com/analysis/6067.php?homeTeamID=26&awayTeamID=1

The last game at Parc Y Scarlets had over 9500 people in attendance didn't it ?

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Post by PhilBB Fri Oct 14, 2022 11:45 am

LordDowlais wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
But you think it's poor that Welsh clubs can only get that number for games, so why are you now saying that 10K is good all of a sudden ? It's a bit of a contradiction.

The average Scarlets v Cardiff crowd is 8.4k (with 2 games from last century not having a published attendance figure)

https://www.cardiffrfcfans.com/analysis/6067.php?homeTeamID=26&awayTeamID=1

The last game at Parc Y Scarlets had over 9500 people in attendance didn't it ?

The Ospreys game had an announced crowd of 9,582

https://www.cardiffrfcfans.com/analysis/6067.php?homeTeamID=26&awayTeamID=22

It's average crowd is 12,198
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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri Oct 14, 2022 12:00 pm

Why are we bothered what a few Welsh games are pulling in? This is primarily about Worcester and Wasps with half a glance at the other English clubs and wider admin and oversight concerns. The Welsh have nothing to do with it, bar the guys looking for new clubs.

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Post by LeinsterFan4life Fri Oct 14, 2022 12:26 pm

PhilBB wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote: Not sure if you were trying to make a point with the Leinster attendance?

You wrote "Leinster just had their best attendance in 10 years outside of Euro games and interpros against the Sharks"

What was the crowd on September 25th, 2021, for the Vodacom Bulls game?
Yeah fair.

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Post by LeinsterFan4life Fri Oct 14, 2022 12:27 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:
Worcester had an average attendance of 10k, if that's not a rugby area, there aren't many rugby areas out there Shocked

I don't see why that would worry us? The SA sides joining has been a game changer (I was against it in the beginning for various reasons). Leinster just had their best attendance in 10 years outside of Euro games and interpros against the Sharks and every game feels like a must win, which has never happened before. The Welsh leaving just allows the league to become a simple round Robin.

If the Welsh feel like joining the English league is the best way to go, they should do it. If it benefits both parties it should happen. It seems like a win win.

Worcester never had an average of 10k.

21-22 = 6,934 https://www.cardiffrfcfans.com/fix.php?clubID=33&seasonID=27
19-20 = 8,058 https://www.cardiffrfcfans.com/fix.php?seasonID=25&clubID=33
18-19 = 7,981 https://www.cardiffrfcfans.com/fix.php?seasonID=24&clubID=33
17-18 = 8,011 https://www.cardiffrfcfans.com/fix.php?seasonID=23&clubID=33

They did average 8,982 in 2011-12 and 9,374 in 2009-10. 9,512 in 2008-09 but they have never averaged 10k.

Leinster got 16,884 against Cell C Sharks.

You're right that the Welsh leaving is the biggest win-win of all.
I seen on the aviva website they had an average attendance of 9998, but that must be wrong. Anyway it doesn't take away from the fact its definitely a rugby area even with those figures. Not sure if you were trying to make a point with the Leinster attendance?

Wasn't it you who were saying that the Welsh regions only getting 10K for a derby was poor ?
Christ here we go...That's not the argument is it? We know that Ilanelli is a "rugby area"

But you think it's poor that Welsh clubs can only get that number for games, so why are you now saying that 10K is good all of a sudden ? It's a bit of a contradiction.
Where did I say it was good?

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Post by mikey_dragon Fri Oct 14, 2022 1:47 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
Christ here we go...That's not the argument is it? We know that Ilanelli is a "rugby area"

Llanelli is a rugby area, but it's quite a small area. They rely heavily on fans from around the county. The roads aren't great so it wouldn't be that easy to get over there. Worcester is a small English town and doesn't have that many rugby clubs compared to other places in England. I was told this from a Worcester man btw.

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Post by LeinsterFan4life Fri Oct 14, 2022 1:55 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:
Christ here we go...That's not the argument is it? We know that Ilanelli is a "rugby area"

Llanelli is a rugby area, but it's quite a small area. They rely heavily on fans from around the county. The roads aren't great so it wouldn't be that easy to get over there. Worcester is a small English town and doesn't have that many rugby clubs compared to other places in England. I was told this from a Worcester man btw.
Fair enough, I wouldn't really know. They're attendances are decent given they were a yo yo club for years.

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Post by mikey_dragon Fri Oct 14, 2022 2:12 pm

Yeah that's fair, most sport in England has a decent following.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Sat Oct 15, 2022 2:21 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:
Christ here we go...That's not the argument is it? We know that Ilanelli is a "rugby area"

Llanelli is a rugby area, but it's quite a small area. They rely heavily on fans from around the county. The roads aren't great so it wouldn't be that easy to get over there. Worcester is a small English town and doesn't have that many rugby clubs compared to other places in England. I was told this from a Worcester man btw.
Fair enough, I wouldn't really know. They're attendances are decent given they were a yo yo club for years.

Worcester a yo-yo club? If so, not at all. They've been pretty established since the early 2000's.....one, possibly 2 seasons outside the top flight.

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