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Welsh Rugby Vote

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Post by LordDowlais Tue Oct 25, 2022 9:22 am

First topic message reminder :

This is the only thread left that hasn't been locked, so I guess this is the only appropriate place to discuss the big vote that is going ahead next weekend and the need to change.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/welsh-rugby-clubs-vote-significant-25325497

What do we all think ?

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Post by RugbyFan100 Wed Oct 26, 2022 11:26 am

My grass roots village club in West Wales that I played for all my youth doesn't have any team anymore. They produced a British Lion and several Wales u21 players. It can't afford to run a team. It's tragic.

Do I blame the pro clubs for it, because they get lots of the money? No. It's simple economics.

Do I think they should have a say in how Welsh rugby is run? God no. They should be nowhere near decision making for the community game let alone be in charge of how 4 multi million pouind pro sprts entities are run. Why should they? It's a ridiculous notion.

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Post by LordDowlais Wed Oct 26, 2022 11:30 am

RugbyFan100 wrote:Do I think they should have a say in how Welsh rugby is run? God no. They should be nowhere near decision making for the community game let alone be in charge of how 4 multi million pouind pro sprts entities are run. Why should they? It's a ridiculous notion.


If you ask me the 4 regions are not run any better. They just do it with more money and call themselves professional when they are nothing but.

The 4 regions are now even falling behind the Italians.

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Post by PhilBB Wed Oct 26, 2022 11:35 am

LordDowlais wrote:OK Phil, lets debate.

Do you have an interest in rugby below the regions ?

Just for you to know, it's on it's knees. Only recently we have just seen a club fold because of lack of players and finances, you might have heard about it, Tredegar RFC, over 100 years of history gone, and a whole town without a rugby team.

So here we are, do we allow this trend to continue ? Or do we do something about it ?

Without these community and grass root clubs, there is no rugby for anyone, so why shouldn't these clubs have a say in how rugby in Wales should or shouldn't be run ?

Yes, I have an interest in the Rags.

I appreciate the hobby game is on its knees. That's why I mentioned how few adult male registered players there are in Wales.

What do we do about it? Encourage clubs to merge. There are too many clubs in Wales - almost double the number in Ireland yet Ireland has more adult male registered players. We lack the benefit of economies of scale in Wales.

Clubs should be financially encouraged to merge. The Union should offer a pathway for mergers, with the necessary professional services advice on the legalities and finances of such an action.

Should hobby clubs have a say in how the professional game is run? No.
Should they receive a payment from the professional game to invest in their facilities for junior rugby? Yes
Should there be more of an emphasis in the pro teams' community foundations and work in schools? Yes.

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Post by PhilBB Wed Oct 26, 2022 11:36 am

LordDowlais wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:Do I think they should have a say in how Welsh rugby is run? God no. They should be nowhere near decision making for the community game let alone be in charge of how 4 multi million pouind pro sprts entities are run. Why should they? It's a ridiculous notion.


If you ask me the 4 regions are not run any better. They just do it with more money and call themselves professional when they are nothing but.

The 4 regions are now even falling behind the Italians.

This is where we have a difficulty. The four pro clubs are not "falling behind the Italians". What we do have is a better financed club in Benetton performing well.

Zebre are still garbage. So it is not "the Italians", is it?
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Post by RugbyFan100 Wed Oct 26, 2022 11:36 am

The 4 Welsh teams have won 9 major trophies since Ulster last won one. But somehow the 4 Welsh teams are the underachievers.

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Post by PhilBB Wed Oct 26, 2022 11:45 am

RugbyFan100 wrote:My grass roots village club in West Wales that I played for all my youth doesn't have any team anymore. They produced a British Lion and several Wales u21 players. It can't afford to run a team. It's tragic.

Do I blame the pro clubs for it, because they get lots of the money? No. It's simple economics.

Do I think they should have a say in how Welsh rugby is run? God no. They should be nowhere near decision making for the community game let alone be in charge of how 4 multi million pouind pro sprts entities are run. Why should they? It's a ridiculous notion.

An Independent Chair of the WRU, to drag this back to the original point, will have a very difficult job explaining to Aberlfywherewhat RFC that they need to merge in order to survive. The view will not be popular, the club will be backed by some local billy big balls who will lose his billy big balls status.

I believe that much of the issue with the hobby game stems from the league structure where there is some 'kudos' in moving up the leagues, encouraging clubs to buy in talent as it is 'win at all costs'. The amateur game was built on clubs building their own fixture list, with local games, no leagues, removing the incentive to pay players silly money to be bussed in from miles around.

The hobby game needs to get back to what it is - fun. A vibrant club with two or more senior male teams, a vibrant age grade section and women's rugby plus touch and walking rugby. Lots of members, all PAYING membership and PAYING to play.

The only way this could ever happen is via mergers, but the Union is showing no guidance for their own members with this action.

Simply put, rugby is now too physical for many, too time consuming for many and no longer fun enough for many - to be their hobby. So the hobby clubs HAVE to change. This is their 2003 moment. Merge or die.
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Post by RugbyFan100 Wed Oct 26, 2022 11:49 am

PhilBB wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:My grass roots village club in West Wales that I played for all my youth doesn't have any team anymore. They produced a British Lion and several Wales u21 players. It can't afford to run a team. It's tragic.

Do I blame the pro clubs for it, because they get lots of the money? No. It's simple economics.

Do I think they should have a say in how Welsh rugby is run? God no. They should be nowhere near decision making for the community game let alone be in charge of how 4 multi million pouind pro sprts entities are run. Why should they? It's a ridiculous notion.

An Independent Chair of the WRU, to drag this back to the original point, will have a very difficult job explaining to Aberlfywherewhat RFC that they need to merge in order to survive. The view will not be popular, the club will be backed by some local billy big balls who will lose his billy big balls status.

I believe that much of the issue with the hobby game stems from the league structure where there is some 'kudos' in moving up the leagues, encouraging clubs to buy in talent as it is 'win at all costs'. The amateur game was built on clubs building their own fixture list, with local games, no leagues, removing the incentive to pay players silly money to be bussed in from miles around.

The hobby game needs to get back to what it is - fun. A vibrant club with two or more senior male teams, a vibrant age grade section and women's rugby plus touch and walking rugby. Lots of members, all PAYING membership and PAYING to play.

The only way this could ever happen is via mergers, but the Union is showing no guidance for their own members with this action.

Simply put, rugby is now too physical for many, too time consuming for many and no longer fun enough for many - to be their hobby. So the hobby clubs HAVE to change. This is their 2003 moment. Merge or die.

The Union is terrified of its own clubs. If they put a foot wrong, they'll be out. Like Gareth Davies. Imagine suggesting to a small club in Wales they have to merge with their rivals across the valley. They don't want to be the ones to suggest it. Way too much power for Dai the local wealthy car salesman who thinks he's billy big balls as he owns the club but is just a medium sized fish in a miniscule pond.

It's just like the film Twin Town. A fcuking comedy show. The community clubs will never vote for change. The pro clubs will therefore always starve. The whole thing is screwed.

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Post by PhilBB Wed Oct 26, 2022 11:55 am

RugbyFan100 wrote:

The Union is terrified of its own clubs. If they put a foot wrong, they'll be out. Like Gareth Davies. Imagine suggesting to a small club in Wales they have to merge with their rivals across the valley. They don't want to be the ones to suggest it. Way too much power for Dai the local wealthy car salesman who thinks he's billy big balls as he owns the club but is just a medium sized fish in a miniscule pond.

It's just like the film Twin Town. A fcuking comedy show. The community clubs will never vote for change. The pro clubs will therefore always starve. The whole thing is screwed.

Pretty much this.

Butcher is out of his depth, that much is clear. We knew this immediately but it was compounded by his reaction to Misogyny-gate.

Phillips will never earn even half of his £330k a year salary anywhere outside of the WRU. He has a poor reputation in the Cardiff financial world.

An adequate union would, by now, have employed a small team of staff to encourage clubs to merge. There'd be a budget to do this and a team to work on the legalities. This common sense approach is very unlikely to ever happen.
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Post by LordDowlais Wed Oct 26, 2022 12:06 pm

PhilBB wrote:Simply put, rugby is now too physical for many, too time consuming for many and no longer fun enough for many - to be their hobby. So the hobby clubs HAVE to change. This is their 2003 moment. Merge or die.

I was starting to come around to your way of thinking until you wrote this, this just shows the utter contempt you show to rugby below the regions.

How did the news go down not so long back when it was proposed that Scarlets and Ospreys needed to merge ?

Just for you to know, this has already happened in Merthyr a number of clubs disbanded and merged to become Ynysowen RFC.

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Post by PhilBB Wed Oct 26, 2022 12:26 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
PhilBB wrote:Simply put, rugby is now too physical for many, too time consuming for many and no longer fun enough for many - to be their hobby. So the hobby clubs HAVE to change. This is their 2003 moment. Merge or die.

I was starting to come around to your way of thinking until you wrote this, this just shows the utter contempt you show to rugby below the regions.

How did the news go down not so long back when it was proposed that Scarlets and Ospreys needed to merge ?

Just for you to know, this has already happened in Merthyr a number of clubs disbanded and merged to become Ynysowen RFC.

So you think I show utter contempt and then write that other clubs have already done what I favour.

Can you see the contradiction in that?

I'd love an explanation of how you think trying to keep hobby rugby alive is showing "utter contempt". Could you explain?
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Post by LordDowlais Wed Oct 26, 2022 12:45 pm

PhilBB wrote:So you think I show utter contempt and then write that other clubs have already done what I favour.

Can you see the contradiction in that?

I'd love an explanation of how you think trying to keep hobby rugby alive is showing "utter contempt". Could you explain?

It's contempt because you said it, but didn't realise it has happened, and the way you said it MERGE OR DIE.

What is a hobby to you, might be very different for someone else. What's the difference from a sugar daddy owned superclub, to a club run in the community ?

I've noticed you have decided to ignore the comparison from the Scarlets/Ospreys merger a few months ago as well.


Last edited by RiscaGame on Wed Oct 26, 2022 2:45 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Grow up Dowlais. You’re in your mid forties.)

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Post by RiscaGame Wed Oct 26, 2022 2:57 pm

I haven’t been able to delete perceived insults today, as they’ve been quoted etc and so it’s a bit pointless. So I’ll just give a last warning to the three main protagonists on this thread, which you need to listen to or there’ll be bans. Seeing as two of you are hovering over permanent ones, due to lengths of previous bans, it’s probably worth considering whether you are going to change your behaviour one last time, because there won’t be another warning.

Stop being so dismissive of opinions. Stop telling other people what they’re thinking, like what happened at the start at the thread. If you think you’re in the right because you’re allegedly neutral, well you’re not and if you were right anyway, what was the point in posting this in the first place?

The second page has been more reasonable discussion overall. It’s pointless people moaning about threads being locked or mention my previous warning to posters, to then post like absolute throbbers on other topics. Keep up the way this page has been going and there are no problems

It’s hardly worth getting excited over something that hasn’t yet happened anyway.

PS, I don’t need a reply or discussion over this post

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Post by PhilBB Wed Oct 26, 2022 4:08 pm

LordDowlais wrote:

It's contempt because you said it, but didn't realise it has happened, and the way you said it MERGE OR DIE.

What is a hobby to you, might be very different for someone else. What's the difference from a sugar daddy owned superclub, to a club run in the community ?

I've noticed you have decided to ignore the comparison from the Scarlets/Ospreys merger a few months ago as well.

It hasn't happened sufficiently. We know this for the reasons you gave earlier in the thread.

It's a hobby by the very definition of the word, Dowlais. If the word upsets you, that's your issue. Nobody at that level plays rugby for their living, so it is a hobby. That's the English language for you.

And it is merge or die. As you wrote earlier - the game is on its knees. It's on its way out, by YOUR definition. So what are you taking issue with??!?!

The Scarlets / Ospreys merger was a professional club option, resulting in the redundancies of well over 100 people. It's not comparable with two clubs with 17 registered players each joining forces. That's why I ignored it, because it's so far removed from reality.
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Post by Oakdene Thu Oct 27, 2022 3:25 am

Why is it that nigh on every thread these days ends up with personal insults?

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Post by PhilBB Thu Oct 27, 2022 3:33 am

Oakdene wrote:Why is it that nigh on every thread these days ends up with personal insults?

What do you think the WRU should do about its Chair? An independent Executive Chair or stick with the old boys routine of the Chair needing to come from the WRU Council?
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Post by Oakdene Thu Oct 27, 2022 3:35 am

PhilBB wrote:
Oakdene wrote:Why is it that nigh on every thread these days ends up with personal insults?

What do you think the WRU should do about its Chair? An independent Executive Chair or stick with the old boys routine of the Chair needing to come from the WRU Council?

An independent chair is my preference.

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Post by PhilBB Thu Oct 27, 2022 3:41 am

Oakdene wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
Oakdene wrote:Why is it that nigh on every thread these days ends up with personal insults?

What do you think the WRU should do about its Chair? An independent Executive Chair or stick with the old boys routine of the Chair needing to come from the WRU Council?

An independent chair is my preference.

Agreed. It would be interesting to see how long Steve Phillips survived if he worked for a competent boss, too.

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Post by Oakdene Thu Oct 27, 2022 3:45 am

PhilBB wrote:
Oakdene wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
Oakdene wrote:Why is it that nigh on every thread these days ends up with personal insults?

What do you think the WRU should do about its Chair? An independent Executive Chair or stick with the old boys routine of the Chair needing to come from the WRU Council?

An independent chair is my preference.

Agreed. It would be interesting to see how long Steve Phillips survived if he worked for a competent boss, too.


Im on the committee of my local club who I still play for & there are some weeks we can barely agree on who's working the bar so why for the life of me we have a say on the professional side of the game is beyond me!!

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Post by PhilBB Thu Oct 27, 2022 3:48 am

Oakdene wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
Oakdene wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
Oakdene wrote:Why is it that nigh on every thread these days ends up with personal insults?

What do you think the WRU should do about its Chair? An independent Executive Chair or stick with the old boys routine of the Chair needing to come from the WRU Council?

An independent chair is my preference.

Agreed. It would be interesting to see how long Steve Phillips survived if he worked for a competent boss, too.


Im on the committee of my local club who I still play for & there are some weeks we can barely agree on who's working the bar so why for the life of me we have a say on the professional side of the game is beyond me!!

That's a brilliant post. I wonder how Dowlais will address that, as he seems in favour of hobby clubs having a say (controlling?) the professional game.
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Post by Oakdene Thu Oct 27, 2022 4:41 am

Amateur clubs shouldn't have a say in the running of professional cubs & vice versa.

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Post by mikey_dragon Thu Oct 27, 2022 4:45 am

LordDowlais wrote:I wouldnt expect the fans of the 4 biggest underachieving clubs in Wales to see things any differently.

Just wondering if Merthyr are one of those? They're a club batting well below their weight in a semi-pro league in Wales and that is quite some under-acheivement.


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Post by mikey_dragon Thu Oct 27, 2022 4:46 am

Oakdene wrote:Amateur clubs shouldn't have a say in the running of professional cubs & vice versa.

It's pretty obvious really isn't it Very Happy. I don't see how anyone could disagree.

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Post by PhilBB Thu Oct 27, 2022 4:52 am

mikey_dragon wrote:
Oakdene wrote:Amateur clubs shouldn't have a say in the running of professional cubs & vice versa.

It's pretty obvious really isn't it Very Happy. I don't see how anyone could disagree.

They should, however, receive a fee from the professional game. And that fee should be invested into M&J facilities and infrastructure, via receipt from the club.
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Post by Oakdene Thu Oct 27, 2022 4:53 am

mikey_dragon wrote:
Oakdene wrote:Amateur clubs shouldn't have a say in the running of professional cubs & vice versa.

It's pretty obvious really isn't it Very Happy. I don't see how anyone could disagree.

I think they quicker it gets separated in Wales, the better!

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Post by mikey_dragon Thu Oct 27, 2022 4:55 am

PhilBB wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
Oakdene wrote:Amateur clubs shouldn't have a say in the running of professional cubs & vice versa.

It's pretty obvious really isn't it Very Happy. I don't see how anyone could disagree.

They should, however, receive a fee from the professional game. And that fee should be invested into M&J facilities and infrastructure, via receipt from the club.

I thought that they did that anyway!

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Post by PhilBB Thu Oct 27, 2022 4:55 am

mikey_dragon wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
Oakdene wrote:Amateur clubs shouldn't have a say in the running of professional cubs & vice versa.

It's pretty obvious really isn't it Very Happy. I don't see how anyone could disagree.

They should, however, receive a fee from the professional game. And that fee should be invested into M&J facilities and infrastructure, via receipt from the club.

I thought that they did that anyway!

They do indeed, except they aren't in direct control of how it is spent etc.
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Post by Oakdene Thu Oct 27, 2022 4:57 am

mikey_dragon wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
Oakdene wrote:Amateur clubs shouldn't have a say in the running of professional cubs & vice versa.

It's pretty obvious really isn't it Very Happy. I don't see how anyone could disagree.

They should, however, receive a fee from the professional game. And that fee should be invested into M&J facilities and infrastructure, via receipt from the club.

I thought that they did that anyway!

Some clubs have separate M&J sections to their senior sides so the grant goes into the senior's bank account & may not find it's way to the M&J, instead being spent on bar stock, kit etc.

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Post by RugbyFan100 Mon Oct 31, 2022 5:42 am

What a surprise:

The Welsh Rugby Union have failed in an attempt to give the Board the option to appoint an independent figure as the organisation’s chair.

The motion was presented at the WRU’s AGM at the Parkgate Hotel in Cardiff, as the union sought to modernise its governance.

The special resolution required a voting share of 75% from the clubs present, but it only managed 65.4%.

Current chairman Rob Butcher was backing the motion that would have seen the Board able to appoint their own independent chair, who hasn’t been appointed by the clubs.

However, the failure to get the motion passed means that current model will continue of the WRU chair being elected by eight directors on the Board who had been put in the position by votes from district representatives on the WRU Council.

"To get 75% of anything is difficult and on this occasion we just fell short," said Butcher afterwards. "We are disappointed but we have to reposition ourselves and think it through and go forward.

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Post by LordDowlais Mon Oct 31, 2022 8:27 am

Oh well, it looks as though the Welsh sides will not be joining the English set-up as the boss of rugby in Wales does not want it:-

Phillips conceded that he did not believe Welsh rugby was in a position for any of the four sides to join the English Premiership. Creating an Anglo-Welsh league has been favoured by some fans ever since the rebel season in 1998/99, with the chaos currently ensuing in England leading to renewed speculation last month that initial talks had been held about two Welsh sides joining forces with the English game. "I think people have to remember that we are contractually committed to URC long-term," said Phillips. "We did a private equity deal where we had some money on diluting our interest and there's a longevity expectation in that. So while I fully get the emotion of dropping everything, pretending we're not in the URC and going to an Anglo-Welsh, I don't think we're in a position to do that. I think an even better question would be I'm not sure why PRL would want that either." wrote:

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Post by Irish Londoner Mon Oct 31, 2022 8:30 am

No dog in this fight, but it looks obvious that something needs to be done, I saw an article on Wales Online about the demise of Tredegar RFC and one of the reasons given was that they couldn't keep players as other clubs were poaching players by paying them, which at Division Six East level seems like utter madness.
I can understand players in the "firsts" getting free training kit, boots, maybe a gym membership as a perk but actually paying players for (let's be honest) parks level rugby seems ridiculous.


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Post by Irish Londoner Mon Oct 31, 2022 8:32 am

LordDowlais wrote:Oh well, it looks as though the Welsh sides will not be joining the English set-up as the boss of rugby in Wales does not want it:-


It's not about whether he wants it, it's about the contracts the teams have already bought into and have to be honoured. Also as he puts it "I think an even better question would be I'm not sure why PRL would want that either."

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Post by RugbyFan100 Mon Oct 31, 2022 9:30 am

Irish Londoner wrote:No dog in this fight, but it looks obvious that something needs to be done, I saw an article on Wales Online about the demise of Tredegar RFC and one of the reasons given was that they couldn't keep players as other clubs were poaching players by paying them, which at Division Six East level seems like utter madness.
I can understand players in the "firsts" getting free training kit, boots, maybe a gym membership as a perk but actually paying players for (let's be honest) parks level rugby seems ridiculous.

It's absolutely barking mad. A few selfish backwards clubs refuse to provide any resolutions to the game in Wales, so fearful of any change.

Meanwhile they cause chaos, mismatches and clubs going udner by paying players. Broken structure that is getting worse.

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Post by LordDowlais Tue Nov 01, 2022 6:25 am

A very interesting snippet from WOL where Mike Phillips has made some pressing statements about the academy systems and he is has mentioned the community game, which you all know on here is a subject very close to my heart.

He feels the community game is not getting enough attention, something which I agree with. Anyway, it's worth the read if you fancy it:-

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/mike-phillips-fears-welsh-rugby-25391077

I know there are people on here who will not agree with this, and that is your prerogative, I am not here to argue that, just wanted to see what opinions you have on it.

I am glad somebody more mainstream can get these issues out there.

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Post by Oakdene Tue Nov 01, 2022 7:29 am

As I've mentioned before, it's well known that the regions academies stop the players from turning out for their clubs & I can't help but think this is a big issue in player development.

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Post by LordDowlais Tue Nov 01, 2022 7:30 am

Oakdene wrote:As I've mentioned before, it's well known that the regions academies stop the players from turning out for their clubs & I can't help but think this is a big issue in player development.

It's a shame they cannot just work together for the good of Welsh rugby. OK

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Post by Oakdene Tue Nov 01, 2022 7:33 am

LordDowlais wrote:
Oakdene wrote:As I've mentioned before, it's well known that the regions academies stop the players from turning out for their clubs & I can't help but think this is a big issue in player development.

It's a shame they cannot just work together for the good of Welsh rugby. OK

Agreed, they put on mandatory gym sessions for the players on a Saturday to make sure they can't turn out for their club. This means that whilst they may be getting bulked in the gym, they're missing out on actual game experience. Everything that was on that Ruck Stars shows pointed to this - so much of the footage was of the players in the gym or hitting weights at home.

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Post by LordDowlais Tue Nov 01, 2022 7:50 am

Oakdene wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Oakdene wrote:As I've mentioned before, it's well known that the regions academies stop the players from turning out for their clubs & I can't help but think this is a big issue in player development.

It's a shame they cannot just work together for the good of Welsh rugby. OK

Agreed, they put on mandatory gym sessions for the players on a Saturday to make sure they can't turn out for their club. This means that whilst they may be getting bulked in the gym, they're missing out on actual game experience. Everything that was on that Ruck Stars shows pointed to this - so much of the footage was of the players in the gym or hitting weights at home.

Also, they need to be playing rugby and enjoying it, they need to be with their friends at that age.

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Post by Irish Londoner Tue Nov 01, 2022 9:36 am

LordDowlais wrote:
Oakdene wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Oakdene wrote:As I've mentioned before, it's well known that the regions academies stop the players from turning out for their clubs & I can't help but think this is a big issue in player development.

It's a shame they cannot just work together for the good of Welsh rugby. OK

Agreed, they put on mandatory gym sessions for the players on a Saturday to make sure they can't turn out for their club. This means that whilst they may be getting bulked in the gym, they're missing out on actual game experience. Everything that was on that Ruck Stars shows pointed to this - so much of the footage was of the players in the gym or hitting weights at home.

Also, they need to be playing rugby and enjoying it, they need to be with their friends at that age.

I've been watching the Ruck Stars programme and there seemed to be a heck of lot of pressure riding on those young players so early on and a lot of emphasis on becoming "gym monkeys" and "bulking up" rather than playing the game - of course that could be the way it's filmed/edited. I can understand from the regions point of view that they don't want players they've invested time and money in getting hurt playing for the colts in a club game but it must be sucking the joy of playing out of the boys - if the regions even let them play for a maximum of a half at their clubs just to keep their match fitness. I also wonder how many of the boys who don't make it to the next stage just drop out of rugby altogether.

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Post by Oakdene Tue Nov 01, 2022 9:41 am

Irish Londoner wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Oakdene wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Oakdene wrote:As I've mentioned before, it's well known that the regions academies stop the players from turning out for their clubs & I can't help but think this is a big issue in player development.

It's a shame they cannot just work together for the good of Welsh rugby. OK

Agreed, they put on mandatory gym sessions for the players on a Saturday to make sure they can't turn out for their club. This means that whilst they may be getting bulked in the gym, they're missing out on actual game experience. Everything that was on that Ruck Stars shows pointed to this - so much of the footage was of the players in the gym or hitting weights at home.

Also, they need to be playing rugby and enjoying it, they need to be with their friends at that age.

I've been watching the Ruck Stars programme and there seemed to be a heck of lot of pressure riding on those young players so early on and a lot of emphasis on becoming "gym monkeys" and "bulking up" rather than playing the game - of course that could be the way it's filmed/edited. I can understand from the regions point of view that they don't want players they've invested time and money in getting hurt playing for the colts in a club game but it must be sucking the joy of playing out of the boys - if the regions even let them play for a maximum of a half at their clubs just to keep their match fitness. I also wonder how many of the boys who don't make it to the next stage just drop out of rugby altogether.

And there for me is the problem, as the clubs will have had players playing for the period of time that the academy products have been with the regions & the academy products are only being exposed to a minimal number of games a season.

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Post by LordDowlais Wed Nov 02, 2022 8:24 am

Here is a very reasonable response from somebody who actually runs a club at community level as to why the motion for an independent chairman was rejected, now I have met Stuart Broad and he is not an unreasonable man, please read it, it's quite enlightening.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/a-lot-clubs-arse-rugby-25407608

Kind of puts things into perspective, especially the bit about the current executive getting paid £359K per year, and then probably spending close to that again on somebody else when rugby is struggling for money.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed Nov 02, 2022 9:21 am

It sounds most of all as if they've had their noses put out of joint as they didn't get enough time with the boss!

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Post by RugbyFan100 Wed Nov 02, 2022 9:33 am

So "community clubs are on their arse", yet this guy just voted to change.........nothing.

Thick beyond.

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Post by Irish Londoner Wed Nov 02, 2022 9:59 am

LordDowlais wrote:Here is a very reasonable response from somebody who actually runs a club at community level as to why the motion for an independent chairman was rejected, now I have met Stuart Broad and he is not an unreasonable man, please read it, it's quite enlightening.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/a-lot-clubs-arse-rugby-25407608

Kind of puts things into perspective, especially the bit about the current executive getting paid £359K per year, and then probably spending close to that again on somebody else when rugby is struggling for money.

If as he put's it "club rugby is on it's arse" surely it's his job as president of a grassroots club to encourage recruitment to his club not demand handouts from the WRU? Why can't the clubs see that there just aren't enough young people who want to play rugby anymore, they have other things to do at weekends, wives/partners are not prepared to write off a whole Saturday so their partner can go and play rugby then spend the evening getting wrecked in the clubhouse afterwards instead of being at home. parents are worried about the concussion risk which rugby appears to be responding to by going "la,la,la I can't hear you", and as for paying players at this level, would you ever catch yourselves on?

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Post by LordDowlais Wed Nov 02, 2022 1:35 pm

Have any of you actually read the article ?

Doesn't it even concern any of you that there is a serious lack of direction, planning and foresight  ?

If the WRU actually explained their plans, then perhaps the clubs would vote for it. Why did he run and not stay for Q&A's ? Why did he not sell his vision to the clubs ?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed Nov 02, 2022 1:49 pm

Yup.

Seems like there was a plan and it was turned down.

Yes good point. This guy seems disappointed not to be flattered and made to feel important. Some ego massaging would have gone a long way.

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Post by RiscaGame Wed Nov 02, 2022 2:03 pm

The thing with it is, that Butcher did mess up and not explain things properly. I’m willing to bet he will be replaced by somebody equally as unqualified (probably Colin Wilks from my club). It’s frustrating that seemingly a few clubs would’ve voted for the required changes, had they known a bit about them. Not sure if they would make the required amount of votes though.

I still think 75% is a ridiculous target really, when other things in the world can be settled on a much smaller percentage.

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Post by LordDowlais Thu Nov 03, 2022 3:09 am

RiscaGame wrote:The thing with it is, that Butcher did mess up and not explain things properly. I’m willing to bet he will be replaced by somebody equally as unqualified (probably Colin Wilks from my club). It’s frustrating that seemingly a few clubs would’ve voted for the required changes, had they known a bit about them. Not sure if they would make the required amount of votes though.

I still think 75% is a ridiculous target really, when other things in the world can be settled on a much smaller percentage.

Yes, I can only agree with this, firstly, it should just be a majority, not 75%, and secondly, I bet if all the club owners knew where this extra £300K on wages was going, then perhaps they would have got the vote they wanted.

All Stuart Broad is saying is, that if we are going to commit to spending this money, that could be used for the community game, then lets know if it's going to be money well spent. All that Butcher needed to do was make things clear. Also, he came in, asked for a vote, and then cleared off. What was so important that he couldn't commit his whole day to this ? He doesn't seem very committed to getting this independent chair in place does he ? Nobody here is suggesting that the community game should have a say in how the pro game is run, but both the pro game and the community game have a vested interest in how rugby in Wales is run.

If any of us were members, would any of us be 100% happy to commit to this without knowing what it is for ? I wouldn't, and we would all have concerns and questions we would want answered before we cast our vote.

People here should not be irate at the people who run the community clubs, but perhaps they should be irate at the WRU for the total lack of professionalism and contempt shown to this whole debacle.

What, Butcher thought he could just turn up, ask people to vote, and expect the vote to go the way he wants ? Then when it doesn't, just storm off in a tantrum because the vote didn't go the way he wanted.

I think people who support the pro game are getting annoyed at the wrong people. OK

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu Nov 03, 2022 3:20 am

Broad said each motion was explained though and that he wanted to ask questions regarding the rationale. He also makes no mention of the timing of Butchers departure. Have you read the article LD?

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Post by RugbyFan100 Thu Nov 03, 2022 5:27 am

LordDowlais wrote:

Yes, I can only agree with this, firstly, it should just be a majority, not 75%

Special amendments to a limited company require 75% voting majority in law.

All Stuart Broad is saying is, that if we are going to commit to spending this money, that could be used for the community game, then lets know if it's going to be money well spent. All that Butcher needed to do was make things clear. Also, he came in, asked for a vote, and then cleared off. What was so important that he couldn't commit his whole day to this ? He doesn't seem very committed to getting this independent chair in place does he ? Nobody here is suggesting that the community game should have a say in how the pro game is run, but both the pro game and the community game have a vested interest in how rugby in Wales is run.

If any of us were members, would any of us be 100% happy to commit to this without knowing what it is for ? I wouldn't, and we would all have concerns and questions we would want answered before we cast our vote.

People here should not be irate at the people who run the community clubs, but perhaps they should be irate at the WRU for the total lack of professionalism and contempt shown to this whole debacle.

What, Butcher thought he could just turn up, ask people to vote, and expect the vote to go the way he wants ? Then when it doesn't, just storm off in a tantrum because the vote didn't go the way he wanted.

I think people who support the pro game are getting annoyed at the wrong people. OK

It's quite possible to believe that both the WRU and the Community game are not fit for purpose. It is not a binary matter.

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Post by LordDowlais Thu Nov 03, 2022 6:07 am

RugbyFan100 wrote:It's quite possible to believe that both the WRU and the Community game are not fit for purpose. It is not a binary matter.

The same can be said about the pro game as well, they do not exactly cover themselves in glory.


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