England post 2022 6Ns, Aus tour and beyond

First topic message reminder :

Hate to say it and I don't wish him injured but I'm glad Ewels not available!
If you're disappointed with Malins and Daly being selected, imagine how most of us feel about Youngs being there.
In fairness, Malins and Daly been superb this season but please give Radwan and Arundell a run.

Just a rumour ive seen...might be tosh...but with the RFU who knows,.

We have a defence coach that should be looking for a new job?

We have just signed a new defence coach...should he not be given a chance.

Ill take Vesty as Attack coach and Adam JOnes as scrum coach

Geordie wrote:We have just signed a new defence coach...should he not be given a chance.

Ill take Vesty as Attack coach and Adam JOnes as scrum coach

We are shipping 30 points or so a game at the moment, so in our case, NO.

As to Vesty, Hands off everybody.

Agree about Jones, if he could get the Sinckler of old back, it would be worth it. I would love to see what he could do with Manny Iyogun over a period of time, the lad has so much potential but I am not sure he is getting the right coaching.

mountain man wrote:I've said same for over a year about likes of Radwan, cannot believe he's not had more of a chance. It was blindingly obvious Nowell and even May now not got pace needed yet Jones keeps picking them. Give the young guns a decent go over 6N, if not up to it then at least had a chance.
Can only hope Borthwick sees it for likes of him, Earl, Lawrence etc.

May still useful, although his USP isn't all that it used to be and the clock is very definitely ticking. Nowell, who I have loved watching over the years, is done. I see Arundell as the successor to May, and I don't understand why, with more investment in time and opportunities, we could not have developed the prospective talents such as Radwan more. I do appreciate he had a big drop in form post his England selections.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

Geordie wrote:We have just signed a new defence coach...should he not be given a chance.

Ill take Vesty as Attack coach and Adam JOnes as scrum coach

We are shipping 30 points or so a game at the moment, so in our case, NO.

As to Vesty, Hands off everybody.

Agree about Jones, if he could get the Sinckler of old back, it would be worth it.  I would love to see what he could do with Manny Iyogun over a period of time, the lad has so much potential but I am not sure he is getting the right coaching.

He wasnt in charge for any games though? Hes due to come in isnt he?

Oh, there's a prospective England coach saying at the weekend that they hope Harry Potter goes on to be capped by England. Errrrrr.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Oh, there's a prospective England coach saying at the weekend that they hope Harry Potter goes on to be capped by England. Errrrrr.

He's not a bad player, and he was born in Wimbledon according to Wikipedia. But he's got a lot of competition among the obvious and even not so obvious contenders.

Im a big fan of Harry Potter...but i wouldnt pick him for England. Hes a cracking premier winger.

He's not an international player though surely? I haven't seen any clamour for him. It's the sort of comment which makes me think it could go even more pear shaped for us.

No 7&1/2 wrote:He's not an international player though surely? I haven't seen any clamour for him. It's the sort of comment which makes me think it could go even more pear shaped for us.

Not sure that's possible! BTW, WTF going on with BBC HYSs, so many comments removed and a lot of entirely reasonable on topic comments as well. I've contacted mods there but utter waste of time. The clown(s) who ruin every HYS are a plague.

Geordie wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

Geordie wrote:We have just signed a new defence coach...should he not be given a chance.

Ill take Vesty as Attack coach and Adam JOnes as scrum coach

We are shipping 30 points or so a game at the moment, so in our case, NO.

As to Vesty, Hands off everybody.

Agree about Jones, if he could get the Sinckler of old back, it would be worth it.  I would love to see what he could do with Manny Iyogun over a period of time, the lad has so much potential but I am not sure he is getting the right coaching.

He wasnt in charge for any games though? Hes due to come in isnt he?

Vass has been around for knocking on three years but not sure he was THE defence coach all that time, everybody stepped up a level when Boyd left. We have the worst points against record in the Prem, hence my comment.

But Brett Hodgson starts now since Seibold has left...so hasnt put anything in place yet.

I guess it depends if Borthwick wants to keep him or not?

mountain man wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:He's not an international player though surely? I haven't seen any clamour for him. It's the sort of comment which makes me think it could go even more pear shaped for us.

Not sure that's possible! BTW, WTF going on with BBC HYSs, so many comments removed and a lot of entirely reasonable on topic comments as well. I've contacted mods there but utter waste of time. The clown(s) who ruin every HYS are a plague.

We mourn for the previous wums of grey ghost (who was on here for a while) and HERSH (who was also on here for a while until Bath got really bad).

I've not seen - has it been confirmed yet that Borthwick has the job?

propdavid_london wrote:I've not seen - has it been confirmed yet that Borthwick has the job?  

Nope. He was asked to comment by bbc Leicester though and said he couldn't...which says he's in discussions at least.

Just a thought on Steve Borthwick if he does the over from EJ. will it be for a short term up untill RWC 203? or full time until 2027 RWC?

majesticimperialman wrote:Just a thought on Steve Borthwick if he does the over from EJ. will it be for a short term up untill RWC 203? or full time  until 2027 RWC?

Only for the 6 nations. Then we'll pay another 4 million for the next manager until the end of the WC.

Geordie wrote:Im a big fan of Harry Potter...but i wouldnt pick him for England. Hes a cracking premier winger.

He's everything you want in a club player. There's not many better kick chase exponents in the league, not many wingers who work harder in defence. Reliable in attack (when on the wing, his trial at 13 was a bit hit and miss). Lacks that bit of magic ball in hand and the combination of leg drive and force if will that sees him score unlikely tries at Prem level isn't likely to be something that'll work at international level.

There's better options for England though in an injury crisis he's the type you'd back to do a solid job.

I believe the original plan was Borthwick would rejoin as an assistant for the world cup and then take over for at least the four years after Maj. He's a very good head coach, one that looks for players with drive and someone that wants to improve every player he works with even if that means staying behind and working on extras in his spare time. He wants players with a mindset similar to his, players not willing to graft won't last long, he sent home a group of Tigers players in his first training session because they didn't have the right attitude. He cleared the decks of those he didn't rate quickly even if it meant backing youngsters or players who'd come through unusual avenues (like Potter).

The RFU continues to look worse and worse, as this plays out.

Originally, Jones was due to wind down his England involvement after the 2019 World Cup, and hand over to the reins to a new, English coach. By April 2020, however, Bill Sweeney announced Jones would continue to the 2023 tournament.

Borthwick had already left, and no-one had tried to keep him, so it does raise the question of whether the RFU had actually sounded out any other candidates at that time.

Having kept Jones, it doesn't seem like the RFU spent too much time planning his successor. While Borthwick now tops the list, he won't really have come back into the frame until Leicester began to get their act together last season. Again, given there was always talk of bringing a successor into the England camp around now, to observe World Cup preparations first hand, then it is a mystery who this would have been. It wouldn't have been Borthwick.

The RFU did have chats with people like Edwards and Lancaster, though it sounds like they were just being sounded out over availability and interest, not ever being actively invited to interview.

Whatever leisurely pace the RFU was taking, urgency would have been injected at the conclusion of the last Six Nations, in March 2022. Though Jones was supported, the possibility of sacking him must have been a consideration, so there must have been a discussion about a replacement, including the costs of paying Jones off, and securing a new coach. Mitchell had already left by this point, so - short of asking Conor O'Shea to step in - it was clear months ago that any new man would have to be bought out of an existing contract elsewhere.

The press had begun touting Borthwick at the time of the last review, so you'd have though the RFU should have been having a word. However, if we are to believe current news reports, it seems Borthwick signed a 3 year extension after Leicester won the title.

What on earth was the state of the dialogue between the RFU and Borthwick over the first part of the 2022? Had anyone indicated to him he was on the radar? How could you let a leading candidate sign such a commitment when you think you'll want him, at the latest, in November 2023? If Borthwick wasn't the main candidate, then who was, and what effort did the RFU make to ensure their availability?

It's not as if this is the first time the RFU has needed to buy someone out of a contract. It cost a pretty penny to bring Brian Ashton back to England from Bath, especially as he had only just started there. It took a while for Andy Farrell to get free from Saracens, to the extent Mike Catt was offered the job instead, and had to be reshuffled when Farrell finally made the move. Eddie Jones himself was about to start working in South Africa when England called.

The RFU knows it will almost always have to buy out a contract, so they have a responsibility to try and do so on the best terms, rather than constantly breaking the emergency glass, and shelling out on the worst possible terms.

The fact Jones is not the slightest bit restricted on where he coaches next also seems a bad look for the RFU. Did no-one there ever game out what would happen if the famously workaholic Jones found himself unemployed?

Rugby Fan wrote:
Borthwick had already left, and no-one had tried to keep him, so it does raise the question of whether the RFU had actually sounded out any other candidates at that time.

Borthwick didn't just leave and the RFU made it difficult for him to join up with Tigers. I think both a fee and a mandatory notice period were inforced by the RFU (there was definitely a notice period of several months). The irony being now they want it the other way the expect Tigers to just roll over and release him immediately mid season.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the RFU wanting Borthwick now and wanting Borthwick next summer are to very different propositions for Tigers. No one can be surprised they are not enamored with the RFU turning round mid season and trying to decimate their coaching team. Taking Borthwick in the summer was likely in the cards even with the new contract he signed because there were rumours Tigers were talking to various coaches, a mid season move is virtually impossible and with no pre season likely to prove disruptive.

Lack of planning, lack of clarity, lack of flexibility. If Jones had been cheered out someone closely tied to Jones would make sense, who would make tweaks but not throw the baby out with the bathwater. This plan does seem tied to the idea that we haven't just sacked him in December and that plans laid in 2019 can be followed without question. Borthwick does need to bring freshness now, but I'm really surprised he hasn't already been announced to give him time. If he's being lumbered with coaches he doesn't like simply as they were in place already he's already on the back foot. If the squad isn't changed or the results improve a lot he's already under pressure. I'm not surprised that Leicester don't want to lose their coach(es) during the season and so are being less than generous, again something that the RFU should know could happen. The more I think of it the more Borthwick just seems the wrong pick at the moment.

The thing is Borthwick will get a grace period over the 6N. Doubly so if the coaching staff aren't changed immediately which I think is likely. Borthwick doesn't have a long term set of staff he's used to working with so reviewing the incumbents on the job isn't a bad idea. Post 6N he can be ruthless and it'll be easier to recruit new faces for the summer.

As much as you think Borthwick might be the wrong pick there's probably no right pick. Do you think the NZRU will let Robertson wander off to England? They'll want compensation and perhaps a post world cup release clause. He's more likely to want his own staff and that will incur more cost and still not be straightforward as again NZRU not wanting lots of coaching IP heading to an England team in disarray pre world cup.

formerly known as Sam wrote:The thing is Borthwick will get a grace period over the 6N. Doubly so if the coaching staff aren't changed immediately which I think is likely. Borthwick doesn't have a long term set of staff he's used to working with so reviewing the incumbents on the job isn't a bad idea. Post 6N he can be ruthless and it'll be easier to recruit new faces for the summer.

As much as you think Borthwick might be the wrong pick there's probably no right pick. Do you think the NZRU will let Robertson wander off to England? They'll want compensation and perhaps a post world cup release clause. He's more likely to want his own staff and that will incur more cost and still not be straightforward as again NZRU not wanting lots of coaching IP heading to an England team in disarray pre world cup.

At least the second option is a clean break. Not bothered if we don't do well at the world cup. If the RFU are thinking that Borthwick brings the least disruption to the team it's the wrong goal and then I don't know why they sacked Jones.

formerly known as Sam wrote:...As much as you think Borthwick might be the wrong pick there's probably no right pick...

For precisely that reason, I'm certain offering an extension to Jones was attractive to Bill Sweeney in 2020, because it kicked the can down the road on deciding who should be the next coach.

Sweeney had only been appointed a few months before the 2019 tournament, so having a chance to retain the coach who had taken England to the final, would have solved a problem for him, without raising any major opposition. It's highly likely he didn't get around to considering any real alternatives to Jones, and probably didn't look too hard into his record and methods with England up to that point. Picking someone else was harder than trying to keep Jones.

Sweeney, and the RFU in general, assumed they had bought themselves continuity from a high starting point, and a safe pair of hands for the next four years. It only slowly dawned on them that Jones didn't really care about the next four years, so much as the tournament in four years time. The RFU finally ditched Jones when they concluded the opportunity cost of that approach was just too high for them.

The trouble is, they reached that conclusion very late in the day, and without having made any real moves to line up a succesor to Jones on their original schedule, let alone the accelerated one now required.

Rugby Fan wrote:What on earth was the state of the dialogue between the RFU and Borthwick over the first part of the 2022? Had anyone indicated to him he was on the radar? How could you let a leading candidate sign such a commitment when you think you'll want him, at the latest, in November 2023? If Borthwick wasn't the main candidate, then who was, and what effort did the RFU make to ensure their availability?

This all hinges on which rumours you believe. There's a lot of contrasting rumours/figures floating around. Some for SB, some for the whole staff, some saying they will all join immediately, some saying SB will be immediate then Sinfield and/or Walters in the summer. Some saying Walters is a key target SB, some saying he'd never work with the England team due to Welsh roots. I've heard just about everything!

The Rolling Maul podcast (small Tigers centred pod that's usually well informed) heard that Tigers contacted the RFU in the summer to open a dialogue over whether they wanted Borthwick long term so a succession plan could be sorted. By the sounds of things Borthwick was their primary candidate to take over. Maybe he would have joined as a consultant for the RWC then taken over after. Or just taken over after. Obviously EJ and SB worked very well in the past but with Cockers and Proudfoot there that would be a lot of voices in the forwards coaching!

The rumours, that's all they are at this stage I believe, that SB signed a three year extension are news to me. Even if SB did re-sign with Tigers I'd be astonished if there wasn't a release clause for the England job at the end of this season. With that release clause re-signing would make some sense for SB and Tigers. It gives SB job security if the RFU changed their mind. Given the RFUs planning it would hardly be a shock if that happened. Whilst it gives Tigers security if SB is wanted early. Without a release clause it would make no sense for SB realistically.

My guess is that England, Tigers and SB all knew he was wanted at the end of this season but it happening midseason, with SB therefore wanting as much of his team as possible immediately as well has led to difficult negotiations.

Hey boyz,
I know I am behind on this, but I'm still surprised the RFU actually pulled the trigger on EJ.  I didn't think they had the money or the will power.  Frankly I envisioned a conversation something like this:

RFU:  "Mister Jones, may we call you Eddie?"
EJ:  "No, mate."
RFU:  "We are letting you out of the end of your contract."
EJ:  "No, mate"
RFU:  "What do you mean by no?"
EJ:  "No, mate, means no.  And by the way, don't forget to book my trip to Rome to study how ancient builders were able to cut thier stones so exactly with primative tools.  This could be a valuable lesson how to build a team and get them to a razor sharpness"
RFU:  "OK, sorry to bother you, sir.  And we will book the tickets, as well.  First class, as usual?"

Regarding Borthwick (or whomever), hard to tell what is going to happen.  I wonder if the RFU's going-in position will be through the RWC or longer.  Or, if one side or both have an out-clause.

doctor_grey wrote:
Regarding Borthwick (or whomever), hard to tell what is going to happen.  I wonder if the RFU's going-in position will be through the RWC or longer.  Or, if one side or both have an out-clause.

After the issues with Eddie I'd be amazed if there isn't a performance related clause involved.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:
Regarding Borthwick (or whomever), hard to tell what is going to happen.  I wonder if the RFU's going-in position will be through the RWC or longer.  Or, if one side or both have an out-clause.

After the issues with Eddie I'd be amazed if there isn't a performance related clause involved.

Agree. I guess there would have to be.

I thought the RFU might of learned a lesson from the Womens RWC. { THE BLACK FERNS }Last year tje red roses smashed them 2 nil with i do believe record points.
But this year the Black Ferns won when it mattered the Womens Rugby World Cup.

Ehat i am getting at these in between games do noot matter as much as the RWC. EJ as more world sucess than any other coach. Let him prove he could of won this time around.

majesticimperialman wrote:I thought the RFU might of learned a lesson from the Womens RWC. { THE BLACK FERNS }Last year tje red roses smashed them 2 nil with i do believe record points.
But this year the Black Ferns won when it mattered the Womens Rugby World Cup.

Ehat i am getting at these in between games  do  noot matter as much as the RWC. EJ as more world  sucess than any other coach. Let him prove he could of won this time around.

What's the lesson to be learned from NZ winning?

No 7&1/2 wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:I thought the RFU might of learned a lesson from the Womens RWC. { THE BLACK FERNS }Last year tje red roses smashed them 2 nil with i do believe record points.
But this year the Black Ferns won when it mattered the Womens Rugby World Cup.

Ehat i am getting at these in between games  do  noot matter as much as the RWC. EJ as more world  sucess than any other coach. Let him prove he could of won this time around.

What's the lesson to be learned from NZ winning?

I think the point that is being made is that last year the Black Ferns were poor, particularly against England but when it came to the RWC they won the whole thing.

So possibly the RFU should have given Eddie until the RWC.

majesticimperialman wrote:I thought the RFU might of learned a lesson from the Womens RWC. { THE BLACK FERNS }Last year tje red roses smashed them 2 nil with i do believe record points.
But this year the Black Ferns won when it mattered the Womens Rugby World Cup.

Ehat i am getting at these in between games  do  noot matter as much as the RWC. EJ as more world  sucess than any other coach. Let him prove he could of won this time around.

Only lesson England need to learn from Black Ferns is need to work on a more expansive, wider game rather than rely on forward dominance. NZ were far better than Eng in the back play so red card aside which definitely swayed result, if England (Roses) can get their open game as good as their tight game they "should" be unbeatable.

Regarding Jones staying on for WC, no. He had his chance and for a long long time I supported him and thought he should stay until RWC2023 but if he had we know he'd have kept same squad as all along and there is no way Eng will win RWC with squad as picked by Jones. No chance.
So to say WC was his focus and he might have come good then, there is no evidence at all to support this. Certainly nothing post 2019.

majesticimperialman wrote:I thought the RFU might of learned a lesson from the Womens RWC. { THE BLACK FERNS }Last year tje red roses smashed them 2 nil with i do believe record points.
But this year the Black Ferns won when it mattered the Womens Rugby World Cup.

Ehat i am getting at these in between games  do  noot matter as much as the RWC. EJ as more world  sucess than any other coach. Let him prove he could of won this time around.

Your last sentence is the crux of the issue. Eddie was focused on winning the RWC and prepared to take losses along the way in order to get there; he's got form for having done that before and done it as successfully as you can do short of actually winning the thing. He will have prepared the RFU for a rough patch along the way - I just don't think they appreciated how rough it was going to be. It came down to a question of what you prioritise, and Eddie admits he got the balance wrong (at least in terms of keeping his job).

As far as what we can learn from the Black Ferns and England Women, I'd say the only real lesson is "don't make high tackles". Wayne Smith did an amazing job in turning the Ferns around, but England were comfortably the better side until Thomson's red, and held on while a player down for most of the rest of the game, and it was only the total exhaustion of Abby Ward that led to the mistake that cost them their chance to win at the end. Having been in the stadium for two of their prior losses to the Black Ferns in RWC Finals, the tenor of the game was completely different. In 2010 and 2017 England managed to build a lead, but it always felt that the Ferns would win in the second half. While they still lost this time, the difference was essentially the Ferns' back three having an undefended channel to run at.

mountain man wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:I thought the RFU might of learned a lesson from the Womens RWC. { THE BLACK FERNS }Last year tje red roses smashed them 2 nil with i do believe record points.
But this year the Black Ferns won when it mattered the Womens Rugby World Cup.

Ehat i am getting at these in between games  do  noot matter as much as the RWC. EJ as more world  sucess than any other coach. Let him prove he could of won this time around.

Only lesson England need to learn from Black Ferns is need to work on a more expansive, wider game rather than rely on forward dominance. NZ were far better than Eng in the back play so red card aside which definitely swayed result, if England (Roses) can get their open game as good as their tight game they "should" be unbeatable.

That's not true. England were playing an open game and getting the ball to their wings before the red card. Both of their tries in the first part of the game came from backs moves. They reverted to the forward dominated game after the card - and it was still almost enough - but the difference was the New Zealand back three having a repeated opportunity to run at an undefended channel.

NZ Black Ferns far better than England in open running play, watch match again if you disagree. No question.
Their centres especially made massive yards.

I agree England almost won with 14 and it was red that changed result but NZ backs better.

Should have been another red as well, so not even sure NZ learned a lesson from England!

So many reds given for "accidental" head clash caused by tackler going too high. I say accidental as it's not like a clear out where someone goes piling in.
Teams still either not learning or coaches still not insisting on lower tackles. If every player went for waist and below be end of red cards in tackle. Easy.
However, still get players going high to stop offload or to try and use momentum to get player into touch and mistimes it etc and get head on head. It seems crazy given ref will almost always issue straight red and the affect it usually has on a result especially if earlier on in match.

And it's complete luck that there aren't more head clashes. The Tuilagi one from the Euros has been upgraded to a red now and that to me doesn't fall into previous reds as it was a 'passive' tackle. So much inconsistency so don't take the risk!

Saw a report from late last night that the saga may be drawing to a close and the RFU are close to announcing Borthwick.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Saw a report from late last night that the saga may be drawing to a close and the RFU are close to announcing Borthwick.

Good. Well good an announcement is being made. Better for players and fans to know who it is. I suspect clubs/players probably know already but having an official announcement be best.
Let him now get on with it.

One bit of good news, although it might complicate some selections, Courtney Lawes is back and deemed fit to start in tomorrows game against Munster.

I think he'll be in England team for sure if fit. Be interesting though if Borthwick ses him as a 2nd row or flanker.

I hope he's in 2nd row with Itoje so we get likes of Willis Earl and Dombrandt in back row.

Well, I can have a Xmas wish surely?

I'd like to get Lawes back in the 2nd row. Given the abundance of back rowers he's not needed there for England. I can't imagine any coach is going to drop Curry he's just too good. Who knows what weird and wonderful selections we'll see though.

It sounds like the RFU didn't look for player input to make the decision on Jones. There's no reason they had to, of course, and their record on doing so after the 2011 World Cup probably wouldn't have encouraged players to believe their opinions would stay confidential.

Asked if was invited to contribute, Lawes said: “No, I wasn’t. I don’t think any players were.

“I heard the news last Tuesday and just gave [Eddie] a text thanking him for his service and what he had done for my career. That’s all I could really do. I was quite surprised because it’s so close to the World Cup. Eddie has got a pretty good track record at World Cups. The last couple of years haven’t really gone our way but the World Cups are different for us because we get to spend so long together, we get to be a proper team for three or four months.

“I know I’m one of the lucky ones, he didn’t give me much stick or anything like that and he was ultimately really good for my career. I know that’s not the case for everyone so people may have different opinions but for me, personally, I was sad to see him go.

“It’s hard to see. Because you’re removed from the last camp and you don’t know what has happened, what has gone on or how the players were really feeling, the staff, there’s not much you can say about it. From the Australia tour we were going in the right direction, I thought we had made a lot of strides towards the World Cup and to not be able to make progress on that this autumn for whatever reason.”

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/dec/16/lawes-not-consulted-over-decision-to-sack-england-head-coach-jones

That just sums it all up at the moment for me.

'I was quite surprised because it’s so close to the World Cup. Eddie has got a pretty good track record at World Cups. The last couple of years haven’t really gone our way but the World Cups are different for us because we get to spend so long together, we get to be a proper team for three or four months.'

Harry Williams is strumming really nicely this afternoon. He was one who was moved on without having any real shockers.

mountain man wrote:I think he'll be in England team for sure if fit. Be interesting though if Borthwick ses him as a 2nd row or flanker.

I hope he's in 2nd row with Itoje so we get likes of Willis Earl and Dombrandt in back row.

Well, I can have a Xmas wish surely?

Christmas was cancelled.

Can any one confirm Steve Borthwick will be England Head coach ?
I have just seen on Rugby Pass that Andy Robinson ad Quit of Head Coach of Romania,

Is he in line for the England head coach job? surely not?

majesticimperialman wrote:Can any one confirm Steve Borthwick will be England Head coach ?
I have just seen on Rugby Pass that Andy Robinson ad Quit of Head Coach  of Romania,

Is he in line for the England head coach job? surely not?

Jesus.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:Can any one confirm Steve Borthwick will be England Head coach ?
I have just seen on Rugby Pass that Andy Robinson ad Quit of Head Coach  of Romania,

Is he in line for the England head coach job? surely not?

Jesus.

Yes my child.