Scotland's 6N Build Up, Then Inevitable Fall: Dark Horses of the Year 10 years running

First topic message reminder :

It's the hope that kills ya!

Congratulations lads. Was a great win. Having a great time in Edinburgh regardless of the result . Good craic to be fair.

Betting on George Turner first try scorer also helped lighten the mood.

Looking forward to seeing how the rest of the tournament goes for you guys.

alive555 wrote:When is Graham back?

Soon we hear, but probably unlikely he'll play in this tournament. No need to rush him back though, same with Darge, we seem to be doing fine without them, so let them get fit and come back for the WC.

I just watched the match back again, almost more enjoyable to see it without the pressure of the scoreboard in real time.

Some really good performances, but one I am going to big up was Kinghorn, who maybe had his best game ever for Scotland. Is this the moment he moves out of Hogg's shadow and becomes our starting FB?

He really showed what pace he can bring into the line, a good bit faster than Hogg these days I would say and a good footballer to. Playing at FH has likely improved his game in that respect.


Despite the win, I do think there may be some changes for the game against France. It will be a different challenge playing against them and may need a more physical pack, Gray J and Skinner may come into the equation for that.

If he does drop Hogg for Kinghorn, it also opens up the opportunity to get Healy capped as well, which I am sure he will be keen to do prior to the WC.

It seems churlish, not to say niggardly, to accuse anyone of a poor performance yesterday and doubtless the stats will shoot me down but....

Ragnar looked ring rusty, which he would.
Gilchrist, has been on form for a while, but I thought he faded into the scenery at times yesterday.
Crosbie, offers plenty of graft but doesn't really bring the dynamism or breakdown pilfering of either Darge of Hamish. But then who does? Is Crosby the back row Chris Harris ?

Behind the pack top marks for everyone.

Would you lads really have Kinghorn starting ahead of Hogg? I think that might break the dynamic of the approach for Scotland. Kinghorn looks brilliant when coming in fresh on 50 - 55mins. That is where I would leave him, well for the France game anyways.

Maybe slightly harsh on Kinghorn who deserves a start but team first for me.

Someone mention buffet cart???

I agree with wordsmith above. GG had a quiet game but hey, he’s not gonna get the boot for a quiet game. It’s not like he did anything to cost us.

Zander was brought back too soon. Or at least started too soon. I’d have WP on to start then being the penalty magnet on around the 45/50 minute mark.

Loving Blair at 15 and surely not the Blair Switch Project is done? The good thing is that blair can still pop up at 10 from time to time as a running threat or he can slide into the backline as a second distributor should a play require it.

Hogg, great servant that he has been, is surely fading now and the WC could be his swan song.

Just one note of caution on jumping aboard the hype train (buffet cart has now sold out), we’ve possibly played against the teams that will finish in the bottom half of the table. France are beatable, they are like us and can mentally lose the game and therefore the scoreboard. Ireland though are gonna be a tough tough test.

If we best France in a fortnight though, ALL ABOARD!!!!!!

eirebilly_01 wrote:Would you lads really have Kinghorn starting ahead of Hogg? I think that might break the dynamic of the approach for Scotland. Kinghorn looks brilliant when coming in fresh on 50 - 55mins. That is where I would leave him, well for the France game anyways.

Maybe slightly harsh on Kinghorn who deserves a start but team first for me.

Hogg went off at about 10 mins I think, so BK showed he can last the whole match.

There is still a question mark about Hogg's fitness and form. He has been injured most of the season so far and just not looking as sharp as usual.

He could probsbly have done with getting a run out with Exetrr next week, but the HI is now going to preclude that unfortunately

Who does Jamie Ritchie think he is, stealing Wales’ line “we can beat anyone on our day”….

Fair dues BigGee. I was not questioning Kinghorn's ability to last a whole 80mins, just that i think he is a true match winner coming off the bench.

Form would definitely suggest that he starts ahead of Hogg, I just see him playing that impact role. Even if only against France.

Mind you, if Blarehorn stats and Hogg is rested then we have the prospect of Ollie Smith covering 15, Harris covering centres and Hornito for 9.

Two of those add oodles of pace and attacking threat.

jimbopip wrote:Mind you, if Blarehorn stats and Hogg is rested then we have the prospect of Ollie Smith covering 15, Harris covering centres and Hornito for 9.

Two of those add oodles of pace and attacking threat.

The other adds hard work. The hardest in the world.

Starting with Russell and Blairhorn gives us some different bench options, like Redpath and Smith or indeed a 6:2 bench which could be a realistic option for France and Ireland.

I don't think Hoggy is done for Scotland yet, but he could certainly benefit from getting a few club games under his belt, which might allow him to re-discover his best form.

On an unrelated note crosbie being injured (if this shoulder turns out to be more serious) actually leaves us quite light at openside, with just Hamish Watson as backup. Would we consider calling up maybe Tom Gordon to the squad? Ritchie could but I definitely see him as more of a 6.5 than an openside these days.

Hard to imagine Watson not coming in at OS if Crosbie is crocked and he may well do in any case.

Ritchie would also be fine at OS should it be required, he wins as many jsckles as anyone else these days.

There is an argument for picking a big back row against France, maybe Dempsey, Fagerson & Ritchie with Skinner off the bench!

Some good chat in here. I'd echo a few points.

It's been an outstanding 2 weeks but these were very much the 'winnable' games. The proper hard tests start now and none come quite as difficult as France away! This is their first home game and the place is going to be rocking, not least because they just lost. They'll be baying for blood and the players will only be too keen to take some.

France will be a big step up in massive human beings coming at us at pace, and we're not going to stand a chance if we can't step up physically. To that end I'm not sure starting a rusty Watson is the answer - off the bench maybe.

I'm going against my usual opinion here (Skinner isn't an international 6), but I'd maybe start Skinner at 6 and Ritchie at 7. A 6-2 bench split - I'd be very nervous going into a game where we tend to get a lot of injuries with only 5 forward subs.

I'd make even consider bringing Sutherland back if he's fit. Bhatti hasn't done anything wrong, but Sutherland is a more physical beast and his ceiling is higher.

In the backs I'd give Price 70 minutes for Glasgow next week and tell him he's playing for his spot. If he plays well put him on the bench. Again Horne hasn't done anything wrong but on form Price is the best of the lot


And yes I'd start Kinghorn.

Schoeman
Turner
Fagerson
Gilchrist
R Gray
Skinner
Ritchie
Fagerson

White
Russell
VDM
Tuipolotu
Jones
Steyn
Kinghorn

Subs Sutherland, Brown, Nel, J Gray, Watson/Crosbie, Dempsey, Price, Harris

With Hogg injured (or was it a HIA) I wonder if we'll see Kinghorn at 15 and Healy on bench for France game.

I'd still like to see Cameron Henderson get some game time but it may not be until World cup warm up games. I think McConnochie and McDowall may have to wait until then too.

RDW wrote:Some good chat in here. I'd echo a few points.

I'm going against my usual opinion here (Skinner isn't an international 6), but I'd maybe start Skinner at 6 and Ritchie at 7. A 6-2 bench split - I'd be very nervous going into a game where we tend to get a lot of injuries with only 5 forward subs.

I'll see your Skinner isn't an international 6 and raise you with a Ritchie isn't an international 7.
Remember SA at Murrayfield two autumns ago? Mish is out injured, Mabawza covers 7, wins a couple of turnovers in the first 30 and then disappears from the game, unable to cope with the physicality of the Boks carriers.
France with be at least as strong in Paris, it won't end well if Ritchie wears 7.

sensisball wrote:

RDW wrote:Some good chat in here. I'd echo a few points.

I'm going against my usual opinion here (Skinner isn't an international 6), but I'd maybe start Skinner at 6 and Ritchie at 7. A 6-2 bench split - I'd be very nervous going into a game where we tend to get a lot of injuries with only 5 forward subs.

I'll see your Skinner isn't an international 6 and raise you with a Ritchie isn't an international 7.
Remember SA at Murrayfield two autumns ago? Mish is out injured, Mabawza covers 7, wins a couple of turnovers in the first 30 and then disappears from the game, unable to cope with the physicality of the Boks carriers.
France with be at least as strong in Paris, it won't end well if Ritchie wears 7.

Does the number on Ritchie's back make much of a difference to.how Ritchie plays?

I'm not so sure!

I.e. I don't think his issues against SA we're because he was playing 7. It's likely more because he was the only threat at the breakdown so was regularly smashed.

RDW wrote:

sensisball wrote:

RDW wrote:Some good chat in here. I'd echo a few points.

I'm going against my usual opinion here (Skinner isn't an international 6), but I'd maybe start Skinner at 6 and Ritchie at 7. A 6-2 bench split - I'd be very nervous going into a game where we tend to get a lot of injuries with only 5 forward subs.

I'll see your Skinner isn't an international 6 and raise you with a Ritchie isn't an international 7.
Remember SA at Murrayfield two autumns ago? Mish is out injured, Mabawza covers 7, wins a couple of turnovers in the first 30 and then disappears from the game, unable to cope with the physicality of the Boks carriers.
France with be at least as strong in Paris, it won't end well if Ritchie wears 7.

Does the number on Ritchie's back make much of a difference to.how Ritchie plays?

I'm not so sure!

I.e. I don't think his issues against SA we're because he was playing 7. It's likely more because he was the only threat at the breakdown so was regularly smashed.

To be fair, i think we are in a much better position as a team than we were 2 years ago as well and probably better equipped to deal with a really physical pack.

I am not saying we will dominate them, but hopefully we can at least win enough ball to let our backs have a run at them.

RDW wrote:Some good chat in here. I'd echo a few points.

It's been an outstanding 2 weeks but these were very much the 'winnable' games. The proper hard tests start now and none come quite as difficult as France away! This is their first home game and the place is going to be rocking, not least because they just lost. They'll be baying for blood and the players will only be too keen to take some.

France will be a big step up in massive human beings coming at us at pace, and we're not going to stand a chance if we can't step up physically. To that end I'm not sure starting a rusty Watson is the answer - off the bench maybe.

I'm going against my usual opinion here (Skinner isn't an international 6), but I'd maybe start Skinner at 6 and Ritchie at 7. A 6-2 bench split - I'd be very nervous going into a game where we tend to get a lot of injuries with only 5 forward subs.

I'd make even consider bringing Sutherland back if he's fit. Bhatti hasn't done anything wrong, but Sutherland is a more physical beast and his ceiling is higher.

In the backs I'd give Price 70 minutes for Glasgow next week and tell him he's playing for his spot. If he plays well put him on the bench. Again Horne hasn't done anything wrong but on form Price is the best of the lot


And yes I'd start Kinghorn.

Schoeman
Turner
Fagerson
Gilchrist
R Gray
Skinner
Ritchie
Fagerson

White
Russell
VDM
Tuipolotu
Jones
Steyn
Kinghorn

Subs Sutherland, Brown, Nel, J Gray, Watson/Crosbie, Dempsey, Price, Harris

I've been thinking along the same lines RDW, if Skinner comes in at 6 it solves the question around a rusty Watson coming in to start straight away to replace Crosbie. I think we will need the extra heft, otherwise we run the risk of simply being blown away in the contact area. I know Toonie doesn't favour it, but I think a 6:2 split makes sense on this occasion - Jonny Gray, Dempsey and Watson all coming on adds a lot of impact. If he did go down that route I think Hogg has to start with Kinghorn covering injuries in the backline.

Toonie isn’t going to change a winning team unless forced to by injury. Very few coaches do.
If Crosbie is Kaput, I can see Ritchie at 7, Dempsey getting the 8 spot, Fagerson to 6. Skinner to the bench to cover second/back row and Mish to bench. If it’s 6:2
In the backs it’s a bit more complicated. If Hogg drops out , they might give Smith the 15 jumper and leave Blairhorn to cover the back line from the bench.
Presuming a 6:2 split.
I don’t see many if any changes unless forced though.

Sounds like a stinger for Crosbie from Toonie interview post game. If so, he should be fit in two weeks time.

Will be very interesting to see how Toonie goes with this selection, strong arguments to stick or twist with Crosbie if fit - my view is he probably didn't do enough on Saturday to really cement his place.

I think he will mix up the team a little bit. He has got a strong squad now and does need to keep them all hungry. Not talking tombola here, but certainly a few tweaks.

Maybe along these lines:

Fagerson Z
Turner
Schoeman
Gray R
Gilchrist
Ritchie
Watson
Fagerson
White
Russell
DVDM
Tuipolotu
Jones
Steyn
Kinghorn

Nel
Brown
Sutherland
Gray J
Skinner
Horne
Healy
Redpath


If he does decide to go 6:2 on the bench, which would be right out of character, then Healy would likely drop out and Crosbir/Baylsis come in, assuming that Christie is still injured.

I concur.

Ritchie to 7. Fagerson to 6 and Makepeace at 8.

Principle on the bench perhaps with watson

If Crosbie is fit then same again I’d say.

I was reading Tom English on the beeb today and I noticed this

The least heralded member of that Scottish backline is probably Steyn and he scored twice. Blair Kinghorn came on early after Stuart Hogg failed an HIA and ran with such power and purpose from full-back that we can now announce the official death of the Blair Switch Project. Kinghorn was, is and always will be most effective at 15 and was such a presence in his 67 minutes on the pitch that it made you wonder if Gregor Townsend might contemplate pressing the nuclear button by playing him from the start in Paris instead of Hogg.

The head coach's selectorial tombola is not what it was.

He should be paying us royalties. Or inviting us to Murrayfield for a works outing.

If Crosbie isn't fit I'd just switch Watson in at 7 and otherwise leave the pack "as was". Not sure where the clamour for Skinner is coming from. I don't see his club versatility to play 6 as a virtue at international level. He's slow. Really slow. We don't need him at lock either, as the current combo is doing just fine.

As for 15, I'd start Hogg if fit. Yes, Kinghorn has been terrific off the bench in both games, but away in Paris I'd go for Hogg's experience and character. If Hogg isn't fit then Kinghorn to 15 is a pretty easy choice. Bench is trickier. I'd probably put Ollie Smith in, as I have yet to see Healy play more than a few minutes!! One question is whether we was to persevere with Harris on the bench, as he doesn't really offer much in the way of impact. If we want a "no impact" defensive player, then surely young Stafford gets a vote from Jimbo (could he even captain from the bench??). I'd be tempted to look at Redpath.

jimbopip wrote:I was reading Tom English on the beeb today and I noticed this

The least heralded member of that Scottish backline is probably Steyn and he scored twice. Blair Kinghorn came on early after Stuart Hogg failed an HIA and ran with such power and purpose from full-back that we can now announce the official death of the Blair Switch Project. Kinghorn was, is and always will be most effective at 15 and was such a presence in his 67 minutes on the pitch that it made you wonder if Gregor Townsend might contemplate pressing the nuclear button by playing him from the start in Paris instead of Hogg.

The head coach's selectorial tombola is not what it was.

He should be paying us royalties. Or inviting us to Murrayfield for a works outing.

I saw that and thought the same!

Good job Tom's such a good writer. That's plagiarism I want to be associated with.

What have we been calling it?

Some whale said whichblair project but I’ve used Blair switch project.

Also, which one of you lot is Tom English?

tigertattie wrote:
Also, which one of you lot is Tom English?

My money is on Schiz, crafty old wordsmith!!

tigertattie wrote:I concur.
Makepeace at 8.
.

I think you will need to a person of a certain...um...maturity to get this

cakeordeath wrote:

tigertattie wrote:I concur.
Makepeace at 8.
.

I think you will need to a person of a certain...um...maturity to get this

Nonsense. I’m a child of the 80s and I can mind them.

Other references could be

The saint - Finn now
The prisoner - Rory Hutchinson
Quartermass - Jimbo

Just before the Calcutta Cup match Carling's Understudy messaged me wondering if his mate's son would score against Scotland.
Turned his mate's lad is Sven Hassell: Collins.
You need to be a " mature" bibliophile for that one.

tigertattie wrote:

cakeordeath wrote:

tigertattie wrote:I concur.
Makepeace at 8.
.

I think you will need to a person of a certain...um...maturity to get this

Nonsense. I’m a child of the 80s and I can mind them.

Other references could be

The saint - Finn now
The prisoner - Rory Hutchinson
Quartermass - Jimbo

Good work. I get all of these. Take that, millenials.

George Carlin wrote:

tigertattie wrote:

cakeordeath wrote:

tigertattie wrote:I concur.
Makepeace at 8.
.

I think you will need to a person of a certain...um...maturity to get this

Nonsense. I’m a child of the 80s and I can mind them.

Other references could be

The saint - Finn now
The prisoner - Rory Hutchinson
Quartermass - Jimbo

Good work. I get all of these. Take that, millenials.

Sorry this is all jibberish to me. What Pokémon are these?

Go For it Neily

What Pokémon match up with the Scotland team?

Meeouth can only be Ryan Wilson for being a Poopie of epic proportions

tigertattie wrote:Go For it Neily

What Pokémon match up with the Scotland team?

Meeouth can only be Ryan Wilson for being a Poopie of epic proportions

Chris Harris is geodude. Rock solid in defense but adds very little in attack.

Pyrgos is magikarp. Flaps around with no effect.

Finn is Mr Mime because God knows what drugs the producers were on when they came up with that joker.

I'm lost. The last 42 years of popular culture seem to have passed me by somewhat....

Gutted. Not a squirtle in sight

Charmander for Zander I say.

Think Finn is spot on. He’s an enigma and last weeks game was the perfect example. The first half he was dugshite. Trying offloads. Running down blind channels. Throwing silly miss passes when through the hands would have gotten wingers in space. Then the second half he tries the same mad schit but pulls it off.

He’s still a liability where he’ll win or cost you a game but without him we’re pretty darn flat so we need his finnsanity

jimbopip wrote:Just before the Calcutta Cup match Carling's Understudy messaged me wondering if his mate's son would score against Scotland.
Turned his mate's lad is Sven Hassell: Collins.
You need to be a " mature" bibliophile for that one.

I understand that. If you haven't seen on our England threads there was mention of a nickname for Marchant based on an anagram of his name - Nacho Ramjet....

I notice that Ben Healy hasn't been released back to Munster so perhaps he's in contention for the France match day 23; I also notice that Ben White or George Horne haven't gone back to Glasgow so I presume we won't be seeing John Cooney just yet which is good imho.

I take it the players released back to Glasgow won't be in contention for the France match day 23 or do players get sent back there so Glasgow have as strong a team as possible?

Barclay sums up Russell's play really nicely on the BBC. Russell no longer has to force things because the structures have been adapted to suit his game. Clearly AB Zondagh leaving has made some sort of an impact because Scotland are at the end of week 2 and have bagged 8 tries. In 2022 we had 3 tries, one of which was a penalty try. Russell has played well mostly but the changes to the attacking structure, captain and starting lineup have also made a huge improvement.

interesting in one interview I saw that Russell said his relationship with Townsend is now the best its ever been. I think both have grown and learned. Shame its wasted 4 years of this group of players but finally the whole team and squad looks like they buy into the game plan and tactics, Townsend has learned how to be a decent coach and things have really clicked. finally they are reaching their potential

I give Ritchie a chunk of the credit as well

I have also seen we could end this 6N 4th in the world.  Beat both ireland and France by 17 pts we gain enough ranking points to go 4th.  We are world beaters

TJ wrote:I have also seen we could end this 6N 4th in the world.  Beat both ireland and France by 17 pts we gain enough ranking points to go 4th.  We are world beaters

Jeez TJ, cool your jets there!! Dan Biggar (worst 10 in the tournament?) will lose it completely if he reads that sort of thing.

TJ wrote:interesting in one interview I saw that Russell said his relationship with Townsend is now the best its ever been.  I think both have grown and learned.  Shame its wasted 4 years of this group of players but finally the whole team and squad looks like they buy into the game plan and tactics, Townsend has learned how to be a decent coach and things have really clicked.  finally they are reaching their potential

I give Ritchie a chunk of the credit as well

Well I hope it's well and truly out of their system. Russell is everything to this side.

Whilst I agree that Ritchie is really growing into the captaincy, I still worry that he's losing his edge as a player a bit. Hes been influential this tournament, but he can be better. Christie at Sarries is pushing hard, and a fit duo of Watson and Darge probably take out the 7 jersey. I'd like to see him at his best as a player.

Toonie is often much maligned but I actually think deserves a lot of credit for his tenure in charge. We have had plenty ups and downs but the main thing is he's been able to accept when things go wrong and has made some fundamental changes in his time. Compare that to the likes of Eddie Jones who bludgeons his force of will on his teams and has no plan B. England were long dead by the time he was finally given the boot.

And it's fair to say Toonie has also had to deal with some significant off field challenges. He should definitely bear part responsibility for the breakdown on relationship with Finn, but ultimately was Finn's behaviour that led to all the issues, and Finn that chose the nuclear option of airing their laundry in public. That would be such a difficult thing to manage and the fact they now appear to have a good relationship is a huge credit to Toonie.

Let's not forget that the early years were the best we've had in the pro age. We won something like 12 in a row at home and picked up a famous win in Australia. We were playing the most exciting rugby in the world and the fans were loving it.

The game then moved on however and Toonie didn't, leading the embarrassment that was the World Cup.

That was probability his major awakening as a coach where he realised he had to change, and boy did he - changing us from all out attack to a heard nosed defensive team which led to short term results.

That also however had a short shelf life where we quickly became stale as a team and clearly had lost our way. We got to the point where neither our defence or attack was overly good. The players didn't know what the teams identity was and that showed on the pitch.

So Toonie changed again. There were signs of progress in the recent AIs and that has fully grown into our current 6N where we very much have our swagger back.

How will we fare against the top 2 teams in the world then a brutal WC group? Only time will tell.

The final thing to remember is we are Scotland, not France or the All Blacks. We have by far the smallest playing pool of the tier 1 nations. We have 2 pro teams. There is no logical sense how we can beat a team like England who has more referees than we have adult rugby players. We have to punch well above our weight just to keep up, so the fact that we can beat anyone on our day and aspire to become challengers is remarkable.

Toonie comes with his flaws but there's no doubt his legacy will be of the best Scotland coach of the pro era (sorry Sir Vern)

It just a shame he did this learning on the job. It would have been much better if he had gone to coach another team somewhere to learn his trade

He has wasted years of the best players we have ever had

He will have to lead to a decent WC to leave with a good reputation

I sort of agree with RDW. Toonie has turned things around which is massively to his credit. As is his repair job with Finn. He's also kept the squad with him throughout by and large. Also hard to do. I think our style of rugby is spot on right now, and the transition from Harris to Jones at 13 absolutely fundamental. Harris has been a fine servant, but Jones offers promise only second to Russell. His acceleration and attacking mentality give us a massive edge.

We're in a great place right now. Make no mistake. It's a shame Ireland have to be so good at the same time mind you!

I sort of agree with RDW. Toonie has turned things around which is massively to his credit. As is his repair job with Finn.

Trouble is both those things are ;largely his fault they went wrong

But I agree we are in a good place now. Shame about the wasted years