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England's Winter of Cricket 2022/23

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Post by Duty281 Tue 31 Jan 2023, 11:53 am

First topic message reminder :

The Lions are doing some Bazball v Sri Lanka A.

Sri Lanka A were bowled out for a paltry 136, Fisher with 5/34, and the Lions have already amassed 249/3 in 48 overs. Hameed, who's captain, 81 off 109, Lees 56 off 69, and Haines unbeaten with 62 from 72.

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Post by eirebilly_01 Tue 07 Mar 2023, 11:23 am

Am I the only one that does not see Malan as an opening batter? For me, Malan and Root play similar roles so its one or the other (or both) in the middle order.

Openers - Bairstow - Vince (who i think is more comfortable opening), Salt or even Hales.

Middle order - Root/Malan, Brooks, Buttler and Stokes (if available)

Spinners - Rashid, Livingston/Moeen/Jacks

Seamers - S Curran, Woakes/Wood, Archer


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Post by dummy_half Tue 07 Mar 2023, 2:50 pm

I see Malan as a probable back up across the top 3,including Root's job as the middle overs accumulator of runs. Obviously, Root is better at this because of his uncanny ability to nick singles off almost any delivery.
Malan has shown though, more in T20 than 50 over matches, that once he's set he is well able to accelerate the scoring rate - maybe doesn't have the capacity of Bairstow or an in form Roy of doing so from ball 1

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Post by king_carlos Tue 07 Mar 2023, 4:52 pm

dummy_half wrote:Biggest issue I see is a bit of a lack of death bowling - Archer obviously can do a good job there, but the other seamers are better at the start or through the middle overs.
Plunkett was no death specialist though. I'd actually argue that the development of Curran's death bowling and Woakes improvements from T20 probably mean the death bowling is stronger here than in 2019 in fact. No denying that Jof is the standout death option as you say though. If he gets injured then that problem is suddenly a lot bigger.

eirebilly_01 wrote:Am I the only one that does not see Malan as an opening batter? For me, Malan and Root play similar roles so its one or the other (or both) in the middle order.
I think Malan is very well suited to opening in ODIs actually. His strength is against seam, he's very good at piercing the field or hitting over the top. Both of which suit the PP. In the middle overs, particularly in Indian conditions, I can see Malan getting tied down a bit more against the best spinners.

I think Livingstone's more of a middle order batter who bowls spin rather than a spinner in ODIs as well. If the balance of the side is wrong for the conditions then Buttler shifting up to 5 with Livingstone at 6 could be a really interesting option I think.

Whilst I love speculation about XIs I'll admit I'm the first to start these discussions but I'd also add with the Ashes to come all this could likely get torn up by an injury or two!

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Post by VTR Tue 07 Mar 2023, 7:47 pm

Whatever the debate about the death bowling, I saw an article today that mentioned Chris Jordan. Actually bowled well to play his part in winning a T20 world cup, and set up what should have been another, but no way should he be anywhere near the discussion for ODIs

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Tue 07 Mar 2023, 9:19 pm

If it's a choice between Malan and Root, it's not a choice - Root is the one who really makes our batting lineup gel in one day stuff, one of our best white ball bats ever.

Malan can definitely open though I agree with KC - I think he'd be a good option, and does give you a right hand/left hand opening partnership. Going to be interesting to see him and Roy battle it out in the coming months!

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Post by guildfordbat Tue 07 Mar 2023, 11:59 pm

I'll leave all options on the table at this stage - as Carlos says, a lot can still happen - but will throw in a thought about Roy. He's an impatient and emotional individual, not always dealing well when frustrations come his way. If he is chosen more as back up than an expected starter, greater time and attention may need to be given to him than the other reserves in England's WC party.

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Post by eirebilly_01 Wed 08 Mar 2023, 6:50 am

For me, in the modern game, Malan is not an opener because he takes too long to settle into an innings. Sure he can turn it on when well set but he is not the type of batter to come out in the PP and put pressure on the bowlers. This is where England excelled previously, they took the attack to the opposition bowlers in the PP.

This is why I see him more as a middle order batsman rather than an opening batsman. He can do a job as an opening batsman but i feel there are better options to open than him.

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Post by Soul Requiem Wed 08 Mar 2023, 8:17 am

eirebilly_01 wrote:For me, in the modern game, Malan is not an opener because he takes too long to settle into an innings. Sure he can turn it on when well set but he is not the type of batter to come out in the PP and put pressure on the bowlers. This is where England excelled previously, they took the attack to the opposition bowlers in the PP.

This is why I see him more as a middle order batsman rather than an opening batsman. He can do a job as an opening batsman but i feel there are better options to open than him.

That's exactly why Malan IS an opener in the current game, his ability to shift through the gears when set enables his partner (Bairstow) to go from ball one. Rohit Sharma one of the finest ODI openers does exactly that, he builds his innings at a reasonable rate before accelerating later on.

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Post by king_carlos Wed 08 Mar 2023, 11:21 am

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:If it's a choice between Malan and Root, it's not a choice - Root is the one who really makes our batting lineup gel in one day stuff, one of our best white ball bats ever.

Malan can definitely open though I agree with KC - I think he'd be a good option, and does give you a right hand/left hand opening partnership. Going to be interesting to see him and Roy battle it out in the coming months!
Absolutely. Root is often overlooked a bit in the ODI setup I think. No side other than the Bayliss-Morgan England have ever had an average scoring rate of more than a run a ball between overs 10-40 across a long period. Lots of teams score quickly in the PP or the final 10 overs but none have done what that England side did in the middle overs.

Root is a huge part of that. Being able to score as quickly as he does in a relatively risk free manner is remarkable.

That said Root has only played 15 ODIs since the 2019 CWC final. For context he played 24 ODIs in 2018 alone.   Erm  England have played significantly fewer ODIs in this cycle with the best team pretty much never out. Those ODIs in September against NZ and Ireland will be vital for many key players.

This will be anathema to some but it's a reason I'm glad Root's in the IPL this year. Partly I'm pleased out of simple curiosity as I've thought for a while that Root could be a terrific T20 player. But it will also get him vital time playing white ball cricket in Indian conditions against the best bowlers.

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Post by Duty281 Wed 08 Mar 2023, 6:26 pm

I actually forgot, but England's winter is not yet over. Tomorrow sees the first of three T20s v Bangladesh, England's first outing in the format since becoming world champions. Interestingly it's the first ever T20 bilateral series between these nations.

We all excited?

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Thu 09 Mar 2023, 8:29 am

Duty281 wrote:I actually forgot, but England's winter is not yet over. Tomorrow sees the first of three T20s v Bangladesh, England's first outing in the format since becoming world champions. Interestingly it's the first ever T20 bilateral series between these nations.

We all excited?

I am albeit annoyingly going to be unable to watch the majority of it due to work - I see Roy, not in the squad for this series, hit 145* in the PSL yesterday too
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Post by king_carlos Thu 09 Mar 2023, 8:58 am

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
Duty281 wrote:I actually forgot, but England's winter is not yet over. Tomorrow sees the first of three T20s v Bangladesh, England's first outing in the format since becoming world champions. Interestingly it's the first ever T20 bilateral series between these nations.

We all excited?

I am albeit annoyingly going to be unable to watch the majority of it due to work - I see Roy, not in the squad for this series, hit 145* in the PSL yesterday too
Off 62 balls as they chased 241 with 9 balls to spare. That's Trent Bridge with the boundaries in for the Blast type scoring!

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Post by king_carlos Thu 09 Mar 2023, 9:00 am

England: Phil Salt, Jos Buttler (captain, wicketkeeper), Dawid Malan, Ben Duckett, Moeen Ali, Sam Curran, Chris Woakes, Chris Jordan, Adil Rashid, Jofra Archer, Mark Wood

Surran at 6 and a LOT of bowling options there. 5 front line seamers, Dilly and Mo. Quite a departure from the usual bat deep approach England take in bilaterals.

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Post by VTR Thu 09 Mar 2023, 9:05 am

I've realised even later than Duty, whilst going on cricinfo to check the Ind vs Aus score, I see that England are playing a T20. Forget The Ashes, this is the big one!

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Thu 09 Mar 2023, 9:23 am

The patented Buttler step across his stumps and smoke it over long on for six to end the 5th. Good start for England, 44-0 with one over of the powerplay left
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Post by eirebilly_01 Thu 09 Mar 2023, 9:25 am

Buttler is such a sweet timer of the ball.

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Post by eirebilly_01 Thu 09 Mar 2023, 9:26 am

Very decent power play for England there.

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Post by eirebilly_01 Thu 09 Mar 2023, 10:30 am

Good fightback from Bangladesh, a score above 180 was very much on the cards but they have fought back well and restricted the England total.

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Post by king_carlos Thu 09 Mar 2023, 10:55 am

I'd say that's still over par on a tough batting wicket. I'd expect this strong attack and bowler heavy lineup to defend that but they've not made a great start going for 21 off the first two overs.

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Post by eirebilly_01 Thu 09 Mar 2023, 11:25 am

I was thinking it was under par myself but England should defend it.

That said, Shanto is taking it to the bowling.

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Post by eirebilly_01 Thu 09 Mar 2023, 11:49 am

Bangladesh were cruising until Moeen got the breakthrough.

Now Shanto gone, game very much back on.

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Post by eirebilly_01 Thu 09 Mar 2023, 12:14 pm

A very good and comfortable win for Bangladesh in the end.


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Post by JDizzle Thu 09 Mar 2023, 12:22 pm

A real horrible knock from Salt looking at the scorecard. Probably best England pick more than 4.5 proper batters in the next game? 7 genuine bowling options is pointless.

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Post by dummy_half Thu 09 Mar 2023, 12:25 pm

Bangladesh win with 12 balls to spare. England only made 30 in the last 5 overs, which simply isn't good enough. Losing Duckett and Buttler in consecutive balls ultimately turned the match on its head - if Jos had stayed in, a score around 185-190 could have been on the cards, but two new bats just stopped the flow of runs completely.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Thu 09 Mar 2023, 1:10 pm

JDizzle wrote:A real horrible knock from Salt looking at the scorecard. Probably best England pick more than 4.5 proper batters in the next game? 7 genuine bowling options is pointless.

A prime example of why they usually go with the batter heavy strategy!
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Post by Duty281 Thu 09 Mar 2023, 2:10 pm

Something about too many bowlers spoiling the broth, or too many cooks spoiling the line-up.

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Post by eirebilly_01 Sun 12 Mar 2023, 9:11 am

Big chance here for Malan and Salt today.

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Post by eirebilly_01 Sun 12 Mar 2023, 9:14 am

Surprise surprise, Malan out early and cheaply...

Moeen Ali in...

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Post by Duty281 Sun 12 Mar 2023, 5:21 pm

Didn't see it, but another loss for England on a slow pitch. 91/4 became 117ao. Bangladesh chasing it down with four wickets and an over left. Archer got 3/13 from his four overs, his comeback is starting off very well.

One more game, just one more, and England's lonnnnnnng winter is over.

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Post by king_carlos Sun 12 Mar 2023, 5:37 pm

Archer's such a special talent. When he was out for so long there crept in the idea from some that he's overrated. This often seems to happen I find. Then he comes back and you realise how good he can be. In white ball he's a world class options in the PP, middle and death. In Test cricket he can be a genuine pace bowler and when conditions suit bowl seam in the low 80s and take a Michelle in the Ashes. An incredible bowler.

Another batting failure where conditions didn't suit but also another one I fail to worry about with so many batters missing. The issue with bilateral series in general but especially T20is. So many bilateral T20is are way below the standard of second tier T20 comps such as the PSL and CPL let alone the IPL.

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Post by VTR Sun 12 Mar 2023, 6:15 pm

Exactly, this is such a pointless series it is actually ridiculous. England won the only thing that matters in international T20 a few months ago, really don't care that a half strength side is being trounced

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Post by eirebilly_01 Tue 14 Mar 2023, 1:02 pm

So, Bangladesh wrap up the T20 series against England 3 - 0.

It may not mean much to us fans but I bet Bangladesh are buzzing with this series win.

I did not see who got player of the series but for me it was Shanto.

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Post by VTR Tue 14 Mar 2023, 2:55 pm

No great surprise, the headlines that the World Champions have been whitewashed are quite sensationalist. Some articles I've read are even grouping them with the Rugby Union team. They are the World Champions and don't normally have the tail starting at 6!

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Post by Duty281 Tue 14 Mar 2023, 3:12 pm

Surprised England lost in the end, as Buttler and Malan had set the chase up perfectly, but the middle-order couldn't capitalise. Bangladesh's strange score of 158/2 probably highlights the slowness of the pitch.

Should be the end of the road for Salt, who had a poor winter, and should equally be the end of Moeen, who had another poor return in both formats, but we all know how Moeen is favoured.

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