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England 2023 - Post 6N and beyond

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Tue 21 Mar 2023, 10:57 am

First topic message reminder :

Continued......

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Post by Poorfour Mon 19 Jun 2023, 10:17 am

Geordie wrote:Is Dingwall a 12 or 13 or just a centre who can play both?

A cynical view would be that he's a stand in for Farrell.

I'd imagine that given the squad contains Joseph, Marchant and Slade, who are only really suited to 13, and Porter who I believe plays 13 more than 12, Dingwall is in as a 12. Next week's squad is likely to feature Manu and Faz, which creates some more options.
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Post by formerly known as Sam Mon 19 Jun 2023, 10:27 am

Geordie wrote:Is Dingwall a 12 or 13 or just a centre who can play both?

He's played both and the Saints centres tend to switch as Hutchinson and Dingwall can do a bit of both. Dingwall is skillful, runs good line and would no doubt help our attack. I'd have some serious concerns about his defence though. The Saints midfield defence is flimsy at best and Dingwall leads that.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Mon 19 Jun 2023, 10:36 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:
Poorfour wrote:Kelly’s not in the announced training group this morning - centres are: Dingwall, W Joseph, Marchant, Porter and Slade.

Annoying as Kelly is a better option at 12 than all of those.

I can only think that might have had some surgery at the end of the season and isn't fit.

Just throwing it out there.......perhaps he's deemed not good enough?

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Post by Poorfour Mon 19 Jun 2023, 11:12 am

Helpful summary of the changes courtesy of the Beeb:

BBC wrote:Wing Ollie Hassell-Collins has been dropped from England's World Cup training squad as Northampton Saints and Leicester Tigers players return.

Hassell-Collins, 24, made his debut in the Six Nations in February and played in two of England's five matches.

Scrum-halves Ben Spencer and Harry Randall also make way, while Leicester's Ben Youngs, England's most capped men's player, is included.

Saints and Tigers players were involved in the Premiership semi-finals.

The squad is the second of three to be named by head coach Steve Borthwick before the four-Test summer series starts against Wales on 5 August.

On 7 August he will announce his 33-man squad for the World Cup, which starts on 8 September.

Saracens and Sale Sharks players have not yet been included following the Premiership final.

Centre Ollie Lawrence and hooker Jack Walker remain with the squad despite sustaining knee and calf injuries respectively in training last week.

Number eight Billy Vunipola, lock Ollie Chessum and hooker Luke Cowan-Dickie are also attending the camp as they continue their recoveries from injury.

England squad
Forwards: Jamie Blamire, Dan Cole, Alex Dombrandt, Tom Dunn, Charlie Ewels, Ellis Genge, Joe Heyes, Ted Hill, Courtney Lawes, Lewis Ludlam, Joe Marler, George Martin, Zach Mercer, Beno Obano, Tom Pearson, Val Rapava-Ruskin, David Ribbans, Kyle Sinckler, Will Stuart, Sam Underhill.

Backs: Henry Arundell, Danny Care, Joe Cokanasiga, Fraser Dingwall, Tommy Freeman, Will Joseph, Joe Marchant, Jonny May, Alex Mitchell, Cadan Murley, Guy Porter, Henry Slade, Fin Smith, Marcus Smith, Freddie Steward, Jack van Poortvliet, Anthony Watson, Ben Youngs.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/65947813

Interesting that Hassell-Collins, who had more time in the 6N, is dropped while Arundell and Murley are retained, and that Spencer and Randall make way for Youngs and JVP but Care stays in camp. It'll be interesting to see if Quirke is picked in the next round and if so who (if anyone) drops out.
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Post by formerly known as Sam Mon 19 Jun 2023, 11:45 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
Poorfour wrote:Kelly’s not in the announced training group this morning - centres are: Dingwall, W Joseph, Marchant, Porter and Slade.

Annoying as Kelly is a better option at 12 than all of those.

I can only think that might have had some surgery at the end of the season and isn't fit.

Just throwing it out there.......perhaps he's deemed not good enough?

Maybe but he's the best English 12. Certainly if you look at the squad the only other specialist 12 currently is Dingwall who hits like a wet paper bag in defence. Manu is likely to come in but struggles to play 80 mins these days (8 times in 21 starts last season). Lawrence could play there again but doesn't have much in the way of experience.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Mon 19 Jun 2023, 12:01 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
Poorfour wrote:Kelly’s not in the announced training group this morning - centres are: Dingwall, W Joseph, Marchant, Porter and Slade.

Annoying as Kelly is a better option at 12 than all of those.

I can only think that might have had some surgery at the end of the season and isn't fit.

Just throwing it out there.......perhaps he's deemed not good enough?

Maybe but he's the best English 12. Certainly if you look at the squad the only other specialist 12 currently is Dingwall who hits like a wet paper bag in defence. Manu is likely to come in but struggles to play 80 mins these days (8 times in 21 starts last season). Lawrence could play there again but doesn't have much in the way of experience.

Everything so far seems to point to this not being the case.........

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 19 Jun 2023, 12:06 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
Poorfour wrote:Kelly’s not in the announced training group this morning - centres are: Dingwall, W Joseph, Marchant, Porter and Slade.

Annoying as Kelly is a better option at 12 than all of those.

I can only think that might have had some surgery at the end of the season and isn't fit.

Just throwing it out there.......perhaps he's deemed not good enough?

I'd add that to the concerns I have about Borthwick then. It's a growing list.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Mon 19 Jun 2023, 12:48 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
Poorfour wrote:Kelly’s not in the announced training group this morning - centres are: Dingwall, W Joseph, Marchant, Porter and Slade.

Annoying as Kelly is a better option at 12 than all of those.

I can only think that might have had some surgery at the end of the season and isn't fit.

Just throwing it out there.......perhaps he's deemed not good enough?

Maybe but he's the best English 12. Certainly if you look at the squad the only other specialist 12 currently is Dingwall who hits like a wet paper bag in defence. Manu is likely to come in but struggles to play 80 mins these days (8 times in 21 starts last season). Lawrence could play there again but doesn't have much in the way of experience.

Everything so far seems to point to this not being the case.........

Not really, there was one game which seems to be the only one you've ever seen him play from which you base your opinion. The season Tigers won the league he was instrumental, last season was fairly injury disrupted though.

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Post by Geordie Mon 19 Jun 2023, 1:33 pm

See now this fascinates me. Almost to a man everyone on here has said that Dingwall has a woeful defence. But he's near the top of the tackles list for the prem with 200 over the season.  
So what does that tell us?

Ps anyone else think 12 is going to be Manu and Farrell

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Mon 19 Jun 2023, 2:31 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
Poorfour wrote:Kelly’s not in the announced training group this morning - centres are: Dingwall, W Joseph, Marchant, Porter and Slade.

Annoying as Kelly is a better option at 12 than all of those.

I can only think that might have had some surgery at the end of the season and isn't fit.

Just throwing it out there.......perhaps he's deemed not good enough?

Maybe but he's the best English 12. Certainly if you look at the squad the only other specialist 12 currently is Dingwall who hits like a wet paper bag in defence. Manu is likely to come in but struggles to play 80 mins these days (8 times in 21 starts last season). Lawrence could play there again but doesn't have much in the way of experience.

Everything so far seems to point to this not being the case.........

Not really, there was one game which seems to be the only one you've ever seen him play from which you base your opinion. The season Tigers won the league he was instrumental, last season was fairly injury disrupted though.

No need to get snappy Sammy.....

My opinion is irrelevant, he's not making an England training squad of 38 players so obviously can't be the best English player in said position.

I actually think he's decent and would have probably had him involved.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 19 Jun 2023, 5:06 pm

If even someone who's been very critical of Kelly would have included him stands out as an even bigger question mark surely.

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Post by Yoda Mon 19 Jun 2023, 5:19 pm

SB is probably lining Olly Lawrence up as a 12 and I think will bring in Daly with one of the centres dropping out. I am surprised not to see Kelly however but not dumbstruck as there is probably a very good reason based on stats that he is omitted. I get the impression SB loves his stats which as referenced earlier in the debate do not always tell you the whole story.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Mon 19 Jun 2023, 5:21 pm

Hardly critical....I just don't massively overhype him like some do on here. He's a solid option, never going to set the world alight.

I think it would be more what you have round him rather than expecting a huge impact. Stick a running threat such as JJ in his pomp and it could balance out well.

I see him more as a Barritt type than a Nonu....and its hard to get too excited about that....but he could work.


Last edited by Sgt_Pooly on Mon 19 Jun 2023, 5:22 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Mon 19 Jun 2023, 5:21 pm

Yoda wrote:SB is probably lining Olly Lawrence up as a 12 and I think will bring in Daly with one of the centres dropping out. I am surprised not to see Kelly however but not dumbstruck as there is probably a very good reason based on stats that he is omitted. I get the impression SB loves his stats which as referenced earlier in the debate do not always tell you the whole story.

You could have a point there Yoda.

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Post by king_carlos Mon 19 Jun 2023, 5:43 pm

I've been saying it for a while but I don't think Farrell is done at 12. I think Smith-Farrell as a 10-12 axis is done. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Ford-Farrell though.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 19 Jun 2023, 6:21 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Hardly critical....I just don't massively overhype him like some do on here. He's a solid option, never going to set the world alight.

I think it would be more what you have round him rather than expecting a huge impact. Stick a running threat such as JJ in his pomp and it could balance out well.

I see him more as a Barritt type than a Nonu....and its hard to get too excited about that....but he could work.

Your channeling your inner beshocked. You'll be saying people call him the second coming soon!

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 19 Jun 2023, 6:22 pm

We could soon look forward to the impact of youngs Ford farrell slade again. Exciting times!

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Post by mountain man Mon 19 Jun 2023, 6:43 pm

Nothing would depress me more

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Mon 19 Jun 2023, 7:12 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:Hardly critical....I just don't massively overhype him like some do on here. He's a solid option, never going to set the world alight.

I think it would be more what you have round him rather than expecting a huge impact. Stick a running threat such as JJ in his pomp and it could balance out well.

I see him more as a Barritt type than a Nonu....and its hard to get too excited about that....but he could work.

Your channeling your inner beshocked. You'll be saying people call him the second coming soon!

He's very well hyped on here and seems to improve everytime he's not available.

It is what it is, he's decent and young.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Mon 19 Jun 2023, 9:08 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:Hardly critical....I just don't massively overhype him like some do on here. He's a solid option, never going to set the world alight.

I think it would be more what you have round him rather than expecting a huge impact. Stick a running threat such as JJ in his pomp and it could balance out well.

I see him more as a Barritt type than a Nonu....and its hard to get too excited about that....but he could work.

Your channeling your inner beshocked. You'll be saying people call him the second coming soon!

He's very well hyped on here and seems to improve everytime he's not available.

It is what it is, he's decent and young.

The Barritt comparison is probably fair. Good in defence as a tackler and an organiser. Can pass and kick to a fair standard and is good at taking poor ball and making yards with it. Quicker than Barritt mind. He would be more like the glue holding the midfield together but given some of the options we have at 13 that's more like what we need than a Nonu.

A prime years JJ would be great to drop into 13. He was a great reader of the game and really helped even out the balance with Farrell at 12.

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Post by Poorfour Mon 19 Jun 2023, 10:39 pm

I've long hoped that Marchant would become the long term replacement for JJ. He's a similar type of player, with a similarly strong reading of the game. Probably offers a little less defensively but more creative in attack (especially in transition or broken play).

England haven't really given him a run at 13, preferring Slade and using him on the wing as much as centre.

But I guess England coaches see our centre options differently from how we fans do.
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Post by doctor_grey Tue 20 Jun 2023, 12:33 am

Geordie wrote:See now this fascinates me. Almost to a man everyone on here has said that Dingwall has a woeful defence. But he's near the top of the tackles list for the prem with 200 over the season.  
So what does that tell us?

Ps anyone else think 12 is going to be Manu and Farrell
Dinger's defence is not so bad. He is amongst the Premiership's top tacklers because he gets lots of practice playing for Saints and doesn't miss many.  The problem is playing next to Hutchinson is always going to pull one out of position.  Also, playing in Saint's rather odd defensive schemes would make Jacques Burger look mediocre.  But he is a real attacking threat.  And he does play both centre positions and routinely goes the full 80 without any dropoff.  Defensively he is not worse than Farrell, Daly, Slade, and, and, and....(none of who I rate defensively).

I say that to say I doubt he will make the final squad.  He is most certainly not the best/right player if England are going to play kick/chase and field position.  Lawrence is the guy I would guess (and probably not a great guess) has the inside line on 12 unless Borthwick decides to revert to 1960s Rugby and play a 10 handicapped by Farrell at 12 and some unfortunate plonker at 13.  

Kelly is a strange conundrum for me.  I think I have said this before, but when healthy (possibly to Sam's point) he looks like a young player with great upside and a lot of potential.  But I think he should play himself into shape and get a nice run in.  He looks the type to have a good career and missing this RWC, which is likely going to be ugly in the vein of 2011 or 2015, is not a big deal.  In fact, he might thank us later....

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Post by formerly known as Sam Tue 20 Jun 2023, 7:43 am

When looking at tackle stats it's worth remembering the that Saints and Sale were the sides that made the most and were also two of the top three sides for penalties conceded. They invite a lot of pressure on themselves.

The reason Dingwall gets a lot of practice is because the 12 channel is a common target at Saints. As Doc says Hutchinson isn't a strong defender, Fin Smith on the inside won't be offering lots and a strong carrier will back themselves to at least send Dingwall back over the gain line it not carry through him. I would agree that he might look better in a half decent defensive system, I'm not really sure how the Saints defence or scrum coaches really keep their jobs. Their lack of skill in those areas undermines the best attack in the league (by a distance).

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Post by Geordie Tue 20 Jun 2023, 8:29 am

So if Dingwall is completing 200 tackles in a season in a poor defence he must be doing something right. And if his attack is impressive then maybe hes an interesting option.

Lawrence has knee damage doesnt he...out for 6 weeks i believe, but kept in camp...waiting to he confirmation.

And Will Joseph...very raw.

Id be amazed if Farrell is not at 12 for the opening World Cup game.

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Post by mountain man Tue 20 Jun 2023, 8:41 am

For goodness sake not Farrell at 12, groan.

Surely everyone inc Borthwick and coaches know his only position is 10 by now.


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Post by formerly known as Sam Tue 20 Jun 2023, 8:53 am

Geordie wrote:So if Dingwall is completing 200 tackles in a season in a poor defence he must be doing something right. And if his attack is impressive then maybe hes an interesting option.

Lawrence has knee damage doesnt he...out for 6 weeks i believe, but kept in camp...waiting to he confirmation.  

And Will Joseph...very raw.

Id be amazed if Farrell is not at 12 for the opening World Cup game.

I'd be inclined to change my mind if Prem rugby would also provide the number of missed tackles or his completion percentage. He's apparently well liked in the squad and I can't say his work rate for Saints is anything less than good so maybe they'll make something more out of his defence yet.

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Post by Margin_Walker Tue 20 Jun 2023, 8:59 am

Yeah, number of tackles itself doesn't tell you a whole lot, other than you've played a lot of minutes in the season and your team has played for long periods without the ball.

Comparing his tackle completion %, tackles per/80 and dominant tackle numbers would be better, but they aren't available. Even then, the defensive system you play can impact some of those numbers.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Tue 20 Jun 2023, 9:18 am

I'm not sure where Dingwall fits in tbh....he always looks relatively small when I've watched him.

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Post by Geordie Tue 20 Jun 2023, 9:27 am

Whats the crack with Will Joseph....i cant say ive seen a huge amount of him. Is he a young version of his brother or a different style?


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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 20 Jun 2023, 9:28 am

Stats are useful, they really can't be used in isolation. But they do appear to be used by coaches a helluva lot. Tbf re a team as attacking as Northampton defence is often more open anyway as the team are set up to take risks. They do make a lot of individual errors though. Doubt Dingwall is going to get a chance with England, it's the kicking options that England crave. I am quite surprised Dingwall isn't already playing for Scotland.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 20 Jun 2023, 9:34 am

Think we're set for Farrell/Slade and Tuilagi in midfield. Malins and May to chase the kicks. Steward to patrol the backfield.

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Post by Margin_Walker Tue 20 Jun 2023, 10:00 am

Geordie wrote:Whats the crack with Will Joseph....i cant say ive seen a huge amount of him. Is he a young version of his brother or a different style?


He's very good but a little injury prone. Really athletic and decent defensively. Seems a bit of a confidence player though and really just needs uninterrupted gametime to really establish himself.

https://youtu.be/vbZutwcdZg8?t=271
https://youtu.be/nM2C9U_ytX8?t=289

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Post by Geordie Tue 20 Jun 2023, 10:02 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Think we're set for Farrell/Slade and Tuilagi in midfield. Malins and May to chase the kicks. Steward to patrol the backfield.

I agree its going to be the usual suspects...only depends on Lawrences injury i would say. Hes done more than enough to be in the equation if fit.

Just dont want Malins on the wing though.

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Post by king_carlos Tue 20 Jun 2023, 10:04 am

10.Ford 11.Daly 12.Farrell 13.Tuilagi/Lawrence 14.Watson 15.Steward

That'd be my guess. I think the reaction to the Scotland game was a clear sign they want a carrier in the midfield as we saw Lawrence or Manu after that.

I also think they want a very strong kicking option on one wing. The way Farrell, Malins and Steward were used in the backfield to control the kicking game largely worked. Even against Scotland that was good. Other areas of the game didn't capitalise on it but that strategy meaning it was difficult for the opposition to isolate one weak kicker worked really well. When Daly was recalled before injury he was probably the form back in England. I'd like to see him in that role Malins filled during the Six Nations.

May was recalled in the Six Nations for training during a fallow week then released at the first opportunity to cut that squad. So I'm surprised he's still there even with OHC struggling in the early 6 Nations rounds.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 20 Jun 2023, 10:31 am

H-C well hard done to. Lawrence mode of getting no ball and written off. Daly comes in and makes an almighty defence hash.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Tue 20 Jun 2023, 10:35 am

OHC offered zero in an England shirt, I was surprised he was even back involved at all. I'm normally one for giving players an extended run in the side, but it was clear from the start that he isn't ready/good enough.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 20 Jun 2023, 10:37 am

Lawrence showed zero in an England shirt when he came in too. Didn't get a pass.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Tue 20 Jun 2023, 10:40 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Lawrence showed zero in an England shirt when he came in too. Didn't get a pass.

Correct.....and he went away, worked on his game and came back with the bit between his teeth. Sometimes you're just not good enough or sometimes it's not the right time.

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Post by mountain man Tue 20 Jun 2023, 10:45 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:OHC offered zero in an England shirt, I was surprised he was even back involved at all. I'm normally one for giving players an extended run in the side, but it was clear from the start that he isn't ready/good enough.

Agree with this. England at least have wing options now, just need to be picked!

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 20 Jun 2023, 10:46 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Lawrence showed zero in an England shirt when he came in too. Didn't get a pass.

Correct.....and he went away, worked on his game and came back with the bit between his teeth. Sometimes you're just not good enough or sometimes it's not the right time.

I have no doubt that he worked on his game but if he were Nonu at the time of his debut if you're going to get 2 passes there's little you can do.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 20 Jun 2023, 10:46 am

Anyone reckon on any bolters getting a start this WC? Blamire, Martin, Pearson, Joseph to find themselves starting?

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Post by propdavid_london Tue 20 Jun 2023, 10:55 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:Hardly critical....I just don't massively overhype him like some do on here. He's a solid option, never going to set the world alight.

I think it would be more what you have round him rather than expecting a huge impact. Stick a running threat such as JJ in his pomp and it could balance out well.

I see him more as a Barritt type than a Nonu....and its hard to get too excited about that....but he could work.

Your channeling your inner beshocked. You'll be saying people call him the second coming soon!

He's very well hyped on here and seems to improve everytime he's not available.

It is what it is, he's decent and young.

The Barritt comparison is probably fair. Good in defence as a tackler and an organiser. Can pass and kick to a fair standard and is good at taking poor ball and making yards with it. Quicker than Barritt mind. He would be more like the glue holding the midfield together but given some of the options we have at 13 that's more like what we need than a Nonu.

A prime years JJ would be great to drop into 13. He was a great reader of the game and really helped even out the balance with Farrell at 12.
I would put Marchant in that category with an in form JJ. Cuts some brilliant lines and support play, gas to burn and is solid in defence - all be it perhaps not leading the defence like JJ did.

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Post by propdavid_london Tue 20 Jun 2023, 10:56 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Anyone reckon on any bolters getting a start this WC? Blamire, Martin, Pearson, Joseph to find themselves starting?
Murley

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Post by mountain man Tue 20 Jun 2023, 11:00 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Anyone reckon on any bolters getting a start this WC? Blamire, Martin, Pearson, Joseph to find themselves starting?

Depends upon injuries. If Chessum not fit possibly Martin in 2nd row?

I'd like to see Pearson but doubt very much, I reckon he'll be in 23 for warm ups.

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Post by carpet baboon Tue 20 Jun 2023, 11:08 am

As an outsider I think England should try steward at 12.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 20 Jun 2023, 11:08 am

Over Simmonds? Madness.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 20 Jun 2023, 11:40 am

I'd rather not let a player learn on the job in such a different position he normally plays.

Maybe James finally gets a chance with England? Decent kicking game, pretty strong straight up runner, has had plenty of time playing with Tuilagi?

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Post by Geordie Tue 20 Jun 2023, 11:43 am

Pearson and George Martin must be in.

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Post by Geordie Tue 20 Jun 2023, 11:44 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Over Simmonds? Madness.

Hes started early on the pop hasnt he. Imagine even thinking about anyone but Simmonds for 12...

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 20 Jun 2023, 11:47 am

In a Sliding Doors Universe there are some quite interesting what ifs. Just think that its too risky on some of the swaps talked about with the level of detail the players need to take in on systems etc. I know Jones banged on about after 2 or 3 breakdowns everythings up in the air anyway...but that's when we kick it away.

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