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English Domestic Rugby Ongoing

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Kingshu
Heaf
king_carlos
dummy_half
Rugby Fan
Welshmushroom
carpet baboon
broadlandboy
formerly known as Sam
Lowlandbrit
No 7&1/2
doctor_grey
Recwatcher16
Geordie
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Post by Geordie Tue 04 Apr 2023, 7:52 am

First topic message reminder :

This is a statement from the Coventry Rugby Chairman and was posted on the falcons forum as it seems to point towards a big shake up that affects Prem and Championship teams. The paragraph in the top right is the interesting part for other English teams....

Thought you might like to read it...and if you have any knowledge of the shake ups coming?

https://www.coventryrugby.co.uk/an-open-letter-from-executive-chairman-jon-sharp/

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Post by Welshmushroom Sat 28 Oct 2023, 11:58 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:So if the prem was to stop importing foreign players that may be an issue. But they're not and the wage cap is due to rise again shortly. Meanwhile in head to heads across Europe the. Leagues are still balanced over the past year and the past 5.

Even with the rise in salary cap wont keep it competitive with salaries on offer in France. They will still have imports. But the quality of the imports is what will drive standards. At the moment both France and Japan essentially get first pick on the top stars in world rugby.

Premiership rugby no doubt will still be able to attract the odd super star such as Pollard etc. The issue however runs far deeper than that. The majority of import players now are not the same standard as the overseas players overall they recruited 10 years ago. That in turn lowers the standard of the league and as I said earlier English rugby can't fill the amount of teams they currently have with home grown talent.

Regarding head to heads Europe is a poor measure. Partly because the majority of French teams don't focus on it. Given the only true measure would be to see Premiership sides compete in the Top14 to see how they would actually fair. That of course couldn't happen but you are not comparing apples with apples is what I'm driving at here

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Post by carpet baboon Sat 28 Oct 2023, 12:43 pm

Recwatcher16 wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Ah right. The Irish model could never be fallible. Forgot about that.

Red Herring number 2.

Nobody is claiming Irish rugby is infallible, only that it works in so far as it is financially stable and has a measure of success.

Any system needs to be reworked and reevaluated in the light of changing circumstances and that includes Irish rugby.

No fish involved. Look at Saracens.  It works,it's financially stable and has a measure of success.

Saracens debt: 40.8 million
Saracens CEO: “You can tell that the financial model of rugby doesn’t work and clubs are losing far too much money,”

https://www.cityam.com/exclusive-saracens-ceo-says-financial-model-of-rugby-doesnt-work/


If that really is Saracens repayable debt, then that is a bargain. Saracens have succeeded in obtaining a stadium in London near their fan base, where Wasps, London Irish and London Welsh have failed.

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/bath-claim-robust-set-of-results-despite-latest-financial-losses/

Recwatcher

Not exactly sunlit uplands, lots of "we are moving forward" and "we are committed to" talk, but Bruce Craig has put a lot into bath ,and fair play to him for that, but not exactly seen any rewards. Can you claim that it's a sustainable business model?

And I'm not trying for a "gotcha" I'm genuinely curious, as if Bruce walked away (or any other clubs wealthy backers) how long would the club survive?


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Post by Recwatcher16 Sat 28 Oct 2023, 2:43 pm

Carpet, Perhaps you are making some unconscious assumptions. When you have a domestic league and a club goes bust, then another will take its place. The difference here is that there has been a deliberate structural decision by the PRL to a have a ten team league - the factors for this are a different thread but the rumours on this were well before Wasps and LI's financial difficulties. I don't agree with it but that was the decision.

Another assumption is that everything is viewed in Irish eyes in the context of European competition, perhaps because the URC is a cross border competition. That's not unreasonable but the English league needs to and is focusing post covid on capital costs as opposed to operational costs and in the short term not worry too much about the French, which is why salary caps were significantly lowered. Revenues are well in excess of operational costs but the capital expenditure has been a struggle to finance.

I wouldn't worry about Bath too much, as Dyson expressed an interest in investing a couple of years ago and wouldn't surprise if he is involved in financing the new stadium. That's not to say that Craig is short of the money, but as an ex player, his emotional investment is as probably as high as the financial and he will see it through. I think I am right in saying Craig has already put the multi-million pound training facility in trust with the club as the beneficiary. Exciting times, it just needs to translate onto the pitch!

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Post by LeinsterFan4life Sun 29 Oct 2023, 12:38 pm

Recwatcher16 wrote:Carpet, Perhaps you are making some unconscious assumptions. When you have a domestic league and a club goes bust,  then another will take its place.  The difference here is that there has been a deliberate structural decision by the PRL to a have a ten team league - the factors for this are a different thread but the rumours on this were well before Wasps and LI's financial difficulties. I don't agree with it but that was the decision.

Another assumption is that everything is viewed in Irish eyes in the context of European competition, perhaps because the URC is a cross border competition. That's not unreasonable but the English league needs to and is focusing post covid on capital costs as opposed to operational costs and in the short term not worry too much about the French, which is why salary caps were significantly lowered. Revenues are well in excess of operational costs but the capital expenditure has been a struggle to finance.

I wouldn't worry about Bath too much, as Dyson expressed an interest in investing a couple of years ago and wouldn't surprise if he is involved in financing the new stadium. That's not to say that Craig is short of the money, but as an ex player, his emotional investment is as probably as high as the financial and he will see it through. I think I am right in saying Craig has already put the multi-million pound training facility in trust with the club as the beneficiary. Exciting times, it just needs to translate onto the pitch!
If one of the current 10 sides go bust, who is there to replace them? I'm not sure any of the championship sides are ready, in fact I'm sure most of them have no interest in playing in the prem.

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Post by Recwatcher16 Sun 29 Oct 2023, 4:56 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
Recwatcher16 wrote:Carpet, Perhaps you are making some unconscious assumptions. When you have a domestic league and a club goes bust,  then another will take its place.  The difference here is that there has been a deliberate structural decision by the PRL to a have a ten team league - the factors for this are a different thread but the rumours on this were well before Wasps and LI's financial difficulties. I don't agree with it but that was the decision.

Another assumption is that everything is viewed in Irish eyes in the context of European competition, perhaps because the URC is a cross border competition. That's not unreasonable but the English league needs to and is focusing post covid on capital costs as opposed to operational costs and in the short term not worry too much about the French, which is why salary caps were significantly lowered. Revenues are well in excess of operational costs but the capital expenditure has been a struggle to finance.

I wouldn't worry about Bath too much, as Dyson expressed an interest in investing a couple of years ago and wouldn't surprise if he is involved in financing the new stadium. That's not to say that Craig is short of the money, but as an ex player, his emotional investment is as probably as high as the financial and he will see it through. I think I am right in saying Craig has already put the multi-million pound training facility in trust with the club as the beneficiary. Exciting times, it just needs to translate onto the pitch!
If one of the current 10 sides go bust, who is there to replace them? I'm not sure any of the championship sides are ready, in fact I'm sure most of them have no interest in playing in the prem.

L4L , all you are doing is exhibiting a completely different mindset based on set in stone Union provincial teams.
I agree a ten team league is too small but it is the compromise for copying the elitist set ups in other countries including yours.

It is not about being ready, it's is about having ambition to be promoted and if they are not good enough they get relegated, when that comes back in and another team gets a chance. Every now and then you get an Exeter or Worcester that stay up for a prolonged period and a Bristol that in recent times spent far too long in the Championship. There have been further complicated factors like appropriate stadia and perhaps advanced financing for player recruitment in anticipation of promotion but nothing's perfect and with a financial downturn, exacerbated by a pandemic to boot.

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Post by LeinsterFan4life Wed 01 Nov 2023, 7:27 pm

Recwatcher16 wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:
Recwatcher16 wrote:Carpet, Perhaps you are making some unconscious assumptions. When you have a domestic league and a club goes bust,  then another will take its place.  The difference here is that there has been a deliberate structural decision by the PRL to a have a ten team league - the factors for this are a different thread but the rumours on this were well before Wasps and LI's financial difficulties. I don't agree with it but that was the decision.

Another assumption is that everything is viewed in Irish eyes in the context of European competition, perhaps because the URC is a cross border competition. That's not unreasonable but the English league needs to and is focusing post covid on capital costs as opposed to operational costs and in the short term not worry too much about the French, which is why salary caps were significantly lowered. Revenues are well in excess of operational costs but the capital expenditure has been a struggle to finance.

I wouldn't worry about Bath too much, as Dyson expressed an interest in investing a couple of years ago and wouldn't surprise if he is involved in financing the new stadium. That's not to say that Craig is short of the money, but as an ex player, his emotional investment is as probably as high as the financial and he will see it through. I think I am right in saying Craig has already put the multi-million pound training facility in trust with the club as the beneficiary. Exciting times, it just needs to translate onto the pitch!
If one of the current 10 sides go bust, who is there to replace them? I'm not sure any of the championship sides are ready, in fact I'm sure most of them have no interest in playing in the prem.

L4L , all you are doing is exhibiting a completely different mindset based on set in stone Union provincial teams.
I agree a ten team league is too small but it is the compromise for copying the elitist set ups in other countries including yours.

It is not about being ready, it's is about having ambition to be promoted and if they are not good enough they get relegated, when that comes back in and another team gets a chance. Every now and then you get an Exeter or Worcester that stay up for a prolonged period and a Bristol that in recent times spent far too long in the Championship. There have been further complicated factors like appropriate stadia and perhaps advanced financing for player recruitment in anticipation of promotion but nothing's perfect and with a financial downturn, exacerbated by a pandemic to boot.
You've gone off on your own tangent there.
You claimed that when you have a domestic league and a team goes bust, another takes its place... I'm simply asking who is there to replace a team if one of the CURRENT 10 goes bust? I don't see many options. The stadium criteria is a massive barrier in that regard.

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