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England's Summer of Cricket 2023, Featuring The Ashes

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Post by king_carlos Sun 2 Jul 2023 - 23:24

First topic message reminder :

If Pope can't play I'd probably prefer Foakes coming in, taking the gloves, myself. Maybe:

1.Crawley 2.Duckett 3.Brook 4.Root 5.Bairstow 6.Stokes (c) 7.Foakes (wk)

It means a rejigging of the order but gets better players in the XI than Lawrence at 3 IMO. Particularly when I'm not that convinced by Lawrence against higher pace. Given the 15 man squad that isn't on the cards though.

If Wood is genuinely fit I'd like his pace in the attack but would probably ere towards the seam heavy attack again if the 4  below are good to go:

8.Woakes 9.Broad 10.Wood 11.Tongue

If Wood isn't fit then:

8.Moeen 9.Woakes 10.Broad 11.Tongue

Which does have a lot of batting depth on the upside.

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Post by Duty281 Thu 6 Jul 2023 - 15:27

alfie wrote:I'm not really tense any more. I'm sadly coming to accept that England are going to find ways to hand back any temporary advantage this series. If it isn't dropped catches it is suicidal shots when well set.
This looks a good pitch to bat on now but if a couple of simple chances had stuck this innings might have struggled to reach 250. Starting to look more like 400 now.

I won't complain about Robinson being selected. He looked healthy enough earlier on ...can't wrap them in cotton wool just in case they get injured : can happen to anyone at any time.

Nothing in this for Moeen. A Marsh century wasn't on my list of expectations but it's imminent...

When you have a bowler with a long history of injury problems, someone who was on crutches about six weeks ago, and has gone through a heavy workload in two tests, with only a few days since the last test...you have to exercise restraint and common sense. He was hardly pounding in at Lord's, either.

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Post by alfie Thu 6 Jul 2023 - 15:27

And there it is...excellent from Marsh clapclapclap

Australia thankful for the good fortune of Green being not quite good to go. Now we will probably see Murphy take 6/45 Wink

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Post by Duty281 Thu 6 Jul 2023 - 15:28

GSC wrote:Can't really say it's fine margins. the fielding has been abysmal all series. England do some things well and then give it all away by failing to do basic things

England should probably spend more time working on their catching, rather than sounding off to the media about how they're the greatest entertainers.

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Post by guildfordbat Thu 6 Jul 2023 - 15:31

alfie wrote:I'm not really tense any more. I'm sadly coming to accept that England are going to find ways to hand back any temporary advantage this series. If it isn't dropped catches it is suicidal shots when well set.
This looks a good pitch to bat on now but if a couple of simple chances had stuck this innings might have struggled to reach 250. Starting to look more like 400 now.

I won't complain about Robinson being selected. He looked healthy enough earlier on ...can't wrap them in cotton wool just in case they get injured : can happen to anyone at any time.

Nothing in this for Moeen. A Marsh century wasn't on my list of expectations but it's imminent...

I do suspect though that some of the betting guys here would have been happy to have a wager on Robinson pulling up if offered half-decent odds!

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Post by king_carlos Thu 6 Jul 2023 - 15:31

Soul Requiem wrote:5% of a tennis ball is a significant amount, that is a fairly large margin for error.
That isn't the same as it getting 5% of calls wrong though. For calls within a cm of the line the line judges have an error rate of abut 8%. Hawkeye is a tiny fraction of that for making incorrect line calls in tennis.

Also, again, in cricket we are discussing a projection not tracking. So it's a completely different discussion. Which you have conveniently skated round since making the flawed comparison. So, once again, all together now, with the Soul chorus. It's not that difficult.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Thu 6 Jul 2023 - 15:31

Thankfully we prepared flat wickets - Aussies notoriously not good on them while we are good on th..oh wait a minute
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Post by king_carlos Thu 6 Jul 2023 - 15:33

Credit where due to Marsh for punishing England but once again fielding errors are costing us dear. Frankly, I feel slightly queasy watching it so might go for a walk.

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian Thu 6 Jul 2023 - 15:34

Partnership of 145...

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Post by Soul Requiem Thu 6 Jul 2023 - 15:36

king_carlos wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:5% of a tennis ball is a significant amount, that is a fairly large margin for error.
That isn't the same as it getting 5% of calls wrong though. For calls within a cm of the line the line judges have an error rate of abut 8%. Hawkeye is a tiny fraction of that for making incorrect line calls in tennis.

Also, again, in cricket we are discussing a projection not tracking. So it's a completely different discussion. Which you have conveniently skated round since making the flawed comparison. So, once again, all together now, with the Soul chorus. It's not that difficult.

I'm well aware of what a 5% margin of error means, it is a significant amount and highlights that hawkeye within tennis isn't infallible.

You're only a third right on the projection thing however, that applies only to hitting the stumps. DRS as you're well and obviously not forgotten has three phases, the first two of which are based on tracking not projection.

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Post by alfie Thu 6 Jul 2023 - 15:37

And yes Duty I understand your point about Robinson (would probably have rested him myself, this week) But playing him as one of four seamers here didn't strike me as necessarily crazy. Broad has had a heavy workload too. Injuries happen , unfortunately.

At least with the extra bowlers selected they won't need to call on Harry Brook to bowl a ten over spell Wink

231/4 and this has run away even faster than I feared . Like an antipodean version of Bazball...Marsh is channelling Viv Richards ...

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Post by Duty281 Thu 6 Jul 2023 - 15:41

alfie wrote:And yes Duty I understand your point about Robinson (would probably have rested him myself, this week)  But playing him as one of four seamers here didn't strike me as necessarily crazy. Broad has had a heavy workload too. Injuries happen , unfortunately.

At least with the extra bowlers selected they won't need to call on Harry Brook to bowl a ten over spell Wink

231/4 and this has run away even faster than I feared . Like an antipodean version of Bazball...Marsh is channelling Viv Richards ...

Broad's had an equally heavy workload, yes, but he doesn't have a long history of injury problems, neither is he recently coming back from a spell on the sidelines.

Woakes has a wicket anyway! England hold on to one. That's something going into tea. 240/5.

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Post by alfie Thu 6 Jul 2023 - 15:43

And right on tea Woakes has his man. Just a hundred runs later than he might Wink

End of a fantastic innings thumbsup

Some relief for England but I suspect the horse has bolted down the street by now...

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Post by guildfordbat Thu 6 Jul 2023 - 15:45

king_carlos wrote:Credit where due to Marsh for punishing England but once again fielding errors are costing us dear. Frankly, I feel slightly queasy watching it so might go for a walk.

That's why I sometimes need to wait so long to be served in a cafe, is it? Wink

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Post by king_carlos Thu 6 Jul 2023 - 15:46

Soul Requiem wrote:I'm well aware of what a 5% margin of error means, it is a significant amount and highlights that hawkeye within tennis isn't infallible.

You're only a third right on the projection thing however, that applies only to hitting the stumps. DRS as you're well and obviously not forgotten has three phases, the first two of which are based on tracking not projection.
The small error in the first two phases comes when the cameras don't catch the exact frame where the ball pitches or hits the pad. Then there's a bigger error in the projection.

For pitching in line it of course needs to be more than 50% of the ball pitching in line as well rather than just clipping so a slightly different scenario.

Due to the projection there is a larger degree of error though, hence the umpires original decision being taken into account. Which I believe is correct.

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Post by king_carlos Thu 6 Jul 2023 - 15:47

The breakthrough England needed but far too late.

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Post by king_carlos Thu 6 Jul 2023 - 15:49

Looking ahead (making a projection one might say...) I do think there are plenty of runs in this wicket. Headingley has flattened out a lot recently and the outfield is as fast as you'll ever see. England's aim has to remain bowling Australia out today and batting all of tomorrow when the conditions should be around their best for batting.

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Post by guildfordbat Thu 6 Jul 2023 - 15:52

alfie wrote:And right on tea Woakes has his man. Just a hundred runs later than he might Wink

End of a fantastic innings thumbsup

Some relief for England but I suspect the horse has bolted down the street by now...

Surprised a fairly (albeit sensibly) optimistic chap like you, Alfie, feels the horse is already away. Really need Craig for this but 100/5 from here doesn't seem totally unrealistic and would keep us well in it ....

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Post by VTR Thu 6 Jul 2023 - 15:52

I did pre warn you all about the lurking Marsh brother! Rancid performance from England again, going to be 3-0. Entertainment that isn't

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Post by alfie Thu 6 Jul 2023 - 15:58

That really was a remarkable innings from Marsh. OK he should have been out early - but that happens , annoying though it is for the fielding side. The way he took the bowling apart frankly astonished me as up to then I thought they'd been bowling pretty well...and in fact Head hasn't had anything like the same dominance.

Did they actually fail to have a plan for bowling to him , I wonder ? Mind you he murdered the short stuff and also drove magnificently so maybe there wasn't an answer anywhere ! But it does seem extraordinary as he hardly has a stellar record in Tests : averages 25 for heaven's sake ...

Just his day I guess. But that might just prove a match winning innings.

Early yet of course. Get the last five cheaply and England will be still be in it as I fancy they could score quickly here too. But that session might have knocked some more of the confidence out of them. Can't keep having to salvage a position that's been given up a bit too easily...

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Post by king_carlos Thu 6 Jul 2023 - 15:59

VTR wrote:I did pre warn you all about the lurking Marsh brother! Rancid performance from England again, going to be 3-0. Entertainment that isn't
To be fair, I don't think England's dismal fielding can be blamed on the desire to entertain. It was the same under Silverwood when they were frequently the opposite of entertaining.

In the previous Ashes I believe it was 17 wasted chances (11 catches, the rest runouts and wickets from no balls) in 3 innings before Australia missed one.

The missed chances was really what cost England in T1 here as well. Different coach and captain, different philosophy, same old problems.

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Post by king_carlos Thu 6 Jul 2023 - 16:01

alfie wrote:Did they actually fail to have a plan for bowling to him , I wonder ? Mind you he murdered the short stuff and also drove magnificently so maybe there wasn't an answer anywhere !  But it does seem extraordinary as he hardly has a stellar record in Tests : averages 25 for heaven's sake ...
Analysis is an area that England are usually very good but I did think their plans to the Australia lefties of Khawaja, Head and Carey were very poor in T1. They are all weaker to right-arm seamers over the wicket but England started around the wicket to all three and they punished it well.

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Post by Duty281 Thu 6 Jul 2023 - 16:02

England are still ahead, I'd argue, but they're not as far ahead as they should be. Need to complete the job in this session and keep Australia below 350.

Obviously, it's mostly on Head's shoulders to get Australia to 400 and beyond, but it'll be interesting to see how Carey goes. Carey has made scores of at least 20 in all six innings in England so far, with two half-centuries. He can be another fluent player if he gets in.

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Post by alfie Thu 6 Jul 2023 - 16:06

guildfordbat wrote:
alfie wrote:And right on tea Woakes has his man. Just a hundred runs later than he might Wink

End of a fantastic innings thumbsup

Some relief for England but I suspect the horse has bolted down the street by now...

Surprised a fairly (albeit sensibly) optimistic chap like you, Alfie, feels the horse is already away. Really need Craig for this but 100/5 from here doesn't seem totally unrealistic and would keep us well in it ....

Meaning the horse away in terms of bowling them out for a really sub-par total , not game over ! Can retrieve the position somewhat in this session but they still won't be looking at the 200-ish target it might have been. Even 350 - which looks likely from here - would be a decent score I think and would need England to be right on the job with the bat.

You are right though that I am no longer as optimistic as I was : just seems that every time England get into a "good" position they have one of these horror sessions. I do believe they can compete with this opponent (indeed they have , two close games!) but am wondering if fate is against them this series Smile

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Post by Soul Requiem Thu 6 Jul 2023 - 16:07

There aren't any natural slip fielders in this England team, you've got guys capable of taking blinders but consistency is woeful. It's always easy to use 2005 as a comparison; Trescothick, Flintoff and Strauss were generally the three in the slips with Giles largely at gully. Strauss had his superman catch and Tres took the odd blinder but between them they very rarely dropped the easy ones. Stokes has taken better catches than Flintoff was ever capable of but he's also dropped a lot Freddy never would have.

When he's back from injury i'd quite like to see Pope given a go at first slip to the pacemen, his anticipation seems a step above anyone else in the team.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Thu 6 Jul 2023 - 16:08

Soul Requiem wrote:There aren't any natural slip fielders in this England team, you've got guys capable of taking blinders but consistency is woeful. It's always easy to use 2005 as a comparison; Trescothick, Flintoff and Strauss were generally the three in the slips with Giles largely at gully. Strauss had his superman catch and Tres took the odd blinder but between them they very rarely dropped the easy ones. Stokes has taken better catches than Flintoff was ever capable of but he's also dropped a lot Freddy never would have.

When he's back from injury i'd quite like to see Pope given a go at first slip to the pacemen, his anticipation seems a step above anyone else in the team.

The annoying thing is I think Bairstow is actually very good in the slips - and did well there last summer if my memory serves correct. Probably caught more there than he has with the gloves this series...
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Post by GSC Thu 6 Jul 2023 - 16:09

I think this is still a good track so not sure England are in a disaster spot. But certainly they had a chance to bundle Australia out short of 250 and be well ahead
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Post by JDizzle Thu 6 Jul 2023 - 16:09

Mitch Marsh vs England - Bat 52.70, Bowl 24.46
Garfield Sobers vs Everyone - Bat 57.78, Bowl 34.03

Sorry Garry, I’m picking Mitch Marsh.

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Post by Duty281 Thu 6 Jul 2023 - 16:11

Oh for feck's sake. Should be taken. But tougher than the two earlier drops.

And now Head, not Carey, is caught by Root. Was he in control of that? Whistle

What a mess of a day, but England in front. Woakes has made a really good return. Don't think it was justified to leave him out until now, he's superb in England.

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Post by king_carlos Thu 6 Jul 2023 - 16:13

Swann was another example of a very good natural catcher. Like a few slippers before him he probably ended up there because he was rubbish (or couldn't be bothered...) running around in the outfield.

I think less natural slip catchers can improve in there though. I thought Ian Bell did that. He was fantastic at short leg early of course but didn't seem as comfortable in the slips initially. Cook improved a lot there over his career too I thought.

England just don't seem to be doing the improving part or the natural slip fielder part a long time now.

Carey goes down, then Head is caught just to hammer all this home...

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Post by alfie Thu 6 Jul 2023 - 16:14

And another drop ! Root again...Yorkshire lads having a bad day...

But good heavens ...Head nicks another one immediately and this time Root accepts it rather gladly !

This is an odd days cricket. Marsh apart it's been bowlers' day by miles...

Woakes thumbsup

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Post by Soul Requiem Thu 6 Jul 2023 - 16:14

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:There aren't any natural slip fielders in this England team, you've got guys capable of taking blinders but consistency is woeful. It's always easy to use 2005 as a comparison; Trescothick, Flintoff and Strauss were generally the three in the slips with Giles largely at gully. Strauss had his superman catch and Tres took the odd blinder but between them they very rarely dropped the easy ones. Stokes has taken better catches than Flintoff was ever capable of but he's also dropped a lot Freddy never would have.

When he's back from injury i'd quite like to see Pope given a go at first slip to the pacemen, his anticipation seems a step above anyone else in the team.

The annoying thing is I think Bairstow is actually very good in the slips - and did well there last summer if my memory serves correct. Probably caught more there than he has with the gloves this series...

Jonny took some blinders last summer from memory, generally at 3rd slip if I recall? I can't stand the bloke but look at David Warner compared to the England lot and it's light and day.

Another drop followed by a catch. Is that the third time today one batsman has been dropped only for the other to be caught shortly after?

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Post by Duty281 Thu 6 Jul 2023 - 16:16

Seeing Harmison in the stands. He's put on some timber. Bit of a contrast to Tremlett, who has become a bodybuilder in retirement!

Nearly one at short leg for Root, but not quite. Got a horrible feeling Starc or Cummins is going to hit a century, it's just been an odd test so far.

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Post by GSC Thu 6 Jul 2023 - 16:17

England's fielding is bordering on unprofessional
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Post by Duty281 Thu 6 Jul 2023 - 16:20

Gorgeous from Mark Wood. 85/4 to 240/4 to 249/7. How big was that wicket from Woakes just before tea?

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Post by alfie Thu 6 Jul 2023 - 16:22

Root is usually sound at first slip. Just having a bad day I think .

If Wood keeps producing these rockets may not matter !


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Post by Duty281 Thu 6 Jul 2023 - 16:24

Fair to say Cummins couldn't handle that pace! Nor could I, to be fair to him.

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Post by guildfordbat Thu 6 Jul 2023 - 16:24

alfie wrote:
guildfordbat wrote:
alfie wrote:And right on tea Woakes has his man. Just a hundred runs later than he might Wink

End of a fantastic innings thumbsup

Some relief for England but I suspect the horse has bolted down the street by now...

Surprised a fairly (albeit sensibly) optimistic chap like you, Alfie, feels the horse is already away. Really need Craig for this but 100/5 from here doesn't seem totally unrealistic and would keep us well in it ....

Meaning the horse away in terms of bowling them out for a really sub-par total , not game over ! Can retrieve the position somewhat in this session but they still won't be looking at the 200-ish target it might have been. Even 350 - which looks likely from here - would be a decent score I think and would need England to be right on the job with the bat.

You are right though that I am no longer as optimistic as I was : just seems that every time England get into a "good" position they have one of these horror sessions. I do believe they can compete with this opponent (indeed they have , two close games!) but am wondering if fate is against them this series Smile

Ah, understood, Alfie. Fair enough.

7 down now though and still not 250 on the board. Make that 8! Only Boland (so bad he's a nightwatchman) and Spud Murphy to come. We'll be batting soon ....

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Post by GSC Thu 6 Jul 2023 - 16:24

Might just be a very good day again after all
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Post by alfie Thu 6 Jul 2023 - 16:25

And now Cummins too ! Wood clapclapclap

Suddenly eight down. Did that middle session really happen ?

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Post by Soul Requiem Thu 6 Jul 2023 - 16:25

Knock the stumps out the ground and you don't need to worry about catching it.

https://www.crictracker.com/stats-team-wise-slip-catching-success-in-tests-since-2019/

It's a two year old article unfortunately but doubt much has changed with regards to England since, between 2019 and 2021 slip catch success was 76% compared to 91% for New Zealand and 87% for Australia. Will endeavour to try and find something more up to date.

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Post by alfie Thu 6 Jul 2023 - 16:35

Careful , Guildford...you don't want to tempt a Boland half century !

What's this , four gone for about 13 ? And Carey is on his second life...

Whenever these matches appear to be heading rapidly one way , the narrative seems to do a u-turn.

Wood now going at Carey with catchers out - but two slips as well . I like that. Not keeping all eggs in one basket.

And bangs him on the helmet as a friendly greeting Wink

Never a dull moment.

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Post by dummy_half Thu 6 Jul 2023 - 16:35

CArey gone, looking to slash Wood away and just chippin one up.

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Post by guildfordbat Thu 6 Jul 2023 - 16:36

Now Mr Wood - please show us how to dismiss Scott Boland ....

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian Thu 6 Jul 2023 - 16:38

Some day's cricket this!

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Post by alfie Thu 6 Jul 2023 - 16:39

Nine gone now ! Carey bit rattled ? Rather thrown his hand in now...

What a collapse. Wood and Woakes have been brilliant here. I think someone caught that horse of mine and turned him back toward the stable Wink

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Post by JDizzle Thu 6 Jul 2023 - 16:40

It’s remarkable how quick Wood is now - when you look back at his Test debut vs NZ he was sharp but bowling 86-88. He’s added on a good 6-8 mph by getting stronger and extending that run up. Arguable no-one has ever bowled as quick as he is now, outside of maybe 1-2 men.

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Post by GSC Thu 6 Jul 2023 - 16:46

Picking all these bowlers allows England to use him in short spells clearly (until Robinson gets hurt)
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Post by eirebilly_01 Thu 6 Jul 2023 - 16:47

Savage bowling in the end by Wood to get his 5.

Can we hope for a little bit of composure in the England batting this evening?

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Post by Duty281 Thu 6 Jul 2023 - 16:49

Mark Wood with 5! What an effort from him. His pace caused the Australians no shortage of difficulty. And Woakes and Broad were also superb with the ball.

It's been a very strange day. 263ao, but could have easily been 163ao. England have nearly created 20 chances already!

Now, can England back it up with the bat? About 90 minutes to bat tonight and it's a longer tail.


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Post by Soul Requiem Thu 6 Jul 2023 - 16:51

That's the best i've seen Wood bowl in England; the zip off the pitch has helped him massively. Woakes was good on the whole, lost it a bit in the middle but a lot of that down to Root's drop. The pair of them playing turns a low 80's seam quartet into a mid to high 80's one.

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