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England's Summer of Cricket 2023, Featuring The Ashes

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Post by king_carlos Sun 02 Jul 2023, 11:24 pm

First topic message reminder :

If Pope can't play I'd probably prefer Foakes coming in, taking the gloves, myself. Maybe:

1.Crawley 2.Duckett 3.Brook 4.Root 5.Bairstow 6.Stokes (c) 7.Foakes (wk)

It means a rejigging of the order but gets better players in the XI than Lawrence at 3 IMO. Particularly when I'm not that convinced by Lawrence against higher pace. Given the 15 man squad that isn't on the cards though.

If Wood is genuinely fit I'd like his pace in the attack but would probably ere towards the seam heavy attack again if the 4  below are good to go:

8.Woakes 9.Broad 10.Wood 11.Tongue

If Wood isn't fit then:

8.Moeen 9.Woakes 10.Broad 11.Tongue

Which does have a lot of batting depth on the upside.

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Post by KP_fan Tue 18 Jul 2023, 5:31 pm

Pal Joey wrote:This just in now. Apparently they want both Green and Marsh in at the expense of Murphy.

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/cricket/australia-may-drop-spinner-at-scene-of-warne-s-wonder-20230718-p5dpcj.html
There was between the lines this message in Cummins' talk that he may not continue with Murphy.
Aus now has a problem of "too much batting"
With Carrey down to No.8 , Starc 9, match winner from T1 Cummins at 10
And also they will.now have too many seamers to keep going at Eng

On the other hand Eng are playing a "Day watchman" at No 3 to protect their Frontline batters  England's Summer of Cricket 2023, Featuring The Ashes - Page 17 1f636
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Post by king_carlos Tue 18 Jul 2023, 6:56 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Torrential rain all day here in sunny Manchester.......

Credit to Old trafford if they get this thing going tomorrow.....Probably floods in some places..
The drainage at the England Test grounds is largely incredible these days. I deplore many things the ECB have played a prominent role in doing to world cricket but something they got right was investing big in first research and then infrastructure when it comes to drainage at the big grounds. Early on they rightly decided that if they couldn't change the British weather then they could minimise its effect.

New drainage at the big grounds was largely installed in the noughties but improved on steadily since. They basically consists of a top layer of 'rootzone' which is a special soil with very good drainage, a layer of gravel under that which channels the water to mains pipes under those layers which dispose of the water. As the square and infield is usually covered during rain there also outlets built at crucial points so the covers can drain directly into the mains pipes rather than the rainfall on the covers just running onto the outfield. Hence minimising puddling as well.

What looks like an oval of grass is actually a hefty construction and plumbing project up to around half a metre below the surface!

I've been at grounds on the morning of a game with basically tropical rain, standing water puddling across the uncovered parts of the outfield but once it stops raining the speed at which ground staff can clear that is astonishing. English cricket gets many things wrong but that is an area they've generally got right at the Test grounds.

I say generally as Old Trafford had an infamous issue after the stands were rebuilt where they ended up hastily relaying the turf in front of the new stands that had been damaged. It ended up being slightly lower than the rest of the outfield and having almost no drainage in said area because the turf was poorly installed over a damaged system. If it rained heavily the rest of the outfield cleared rapidly and that area in front of the OT media centre became a swimming pool. That was back around 2010 though and has been fixed since.

So as long as it clears by tomorrow rain today shouldn't be a concern unless something goes very wrong.

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Post by GSC Tue 18 Jul 2023, 8:50 pm

Impressive performance from the women's side, winning the ODI and T20 series and tying the overall series. Australia retain the ashes but a more than credible result
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Post by Duty281 Tue 18 Jul 2023, 9:19 pm

Aussies now confirmed as picking Green over Murphy which, like I said, is the right call in my view. Puts Carey down to 8 and Cummins down at 10! Shocked

Will be interested to see how Australia's batting goes, with their failure to reach 300 in the last three innings and recent propensity for total collapse. In the 2019 Old Trafford test, after losing at Headingley, Australia responded with 497 in the first innings, Smith with a double, and they retained the Ashes as a result.

England's record at Old Trafford is actually very poor v Australia. England haven't won any of the previous seven tests at this ground v Australia, with three draws (should have won in 2005, but for the rain!), and the last win back in 1981. And all four Aussie wins have been decisive.

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Post by king_carlos Wed 19 Jul 2023, 12:01 am

I keep umming and ahing over whether I rate Australia's rumoured plan of dropping a specialist spinner to lengthen the batting line-up.

I didn't actually think Murphy bowled that poorly in the first innings at Headingley. Then it's difficult to take much from how late he bowled in the second innings. I'd say he looks a better spinner than Lyon did so early for instance.

Old Trafford is a big outfield as English grounds go. Generally, that favours spinners I tend to think. The big outfields can make finding the boundary with pace off difficult. Since the square got turned at OT I don't think it's taken spin as much but the big ground is a factor. The lightning pace of outfield means there's still value for shots with pace on but spin can be harder to get away. Maybe England will get the boundaries brought in though which renders all that meaningless!

Hazlewood is a phenomenal bowler but didn't look at his best in T1 and T2 IMO. He's had a lot of injuries recently. Whilst Green was having his bowling workload managed prior to missing T3 with injury.

As an England fan I look at our very flawed batting and tend to think that a less varied attack probably favours them. Whereas I often fear a spinner coming on will draw a dumb mistake.

That's not to say that they might not blow England away for under 150 in the first innings with an all seam attack. Our top order options remain very weak whilst Australia's seamers are of course strong.

No spinner with a 3rd and 4th seamer who seem to be working back to full fitness does seem a risk to me though.

A big difference between seam opitons of Cummins, Starc, Boland and Marsh to Cummins, Starc, Hazlewood, Green and Marsh is them having 4 bowlers with a decent short ball though. As opposed to only 2 at Headingley. That may be their plan to replace most the spin overs more than using part timers. Simply reverting to the effective if not particularly enthralling short ball tactics we've seen both sides use this series.

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Post by alfie Wed 19 Jul 2023, 8:42 am

Sort of expected the Australian choice. Cummins just doesn't really rate Murphy as I reckon his (lack of ) use in the last match showed. Plus if the weather is iffy the extra batting is attractive to a side who only need a draw to keep the trophy - and seam bowling ought to be somewhat assisted by the conditions.

Could backfire of course : Old Trafford generally rewards spinners. But the weather might negate that this week...

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Post by alfie Wed 19 Jul 2023, 8:47 am

Meanwhile , hats off to the England women clap

Beating Australia in both white ball series (this last result very decisive) is a remarkable achievement ; especially considering the Aussies have barely lost a game , let alone a series , for years. Couldn't get them the "Ashes" trophy because of the extra points on the Test ; but surely suggests the big gap between Australia and the rest has been closed now.

Future of this England outfit looks bright , with a couple of young pace bowlers also in the wings. Just need to tighten up that fielding !

And Nat Sciver-Brunt was awesome thumbsup

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Post by KP_fan Wed 19 Jul 2023, 8:56 am

alfie wrote:Sort of expected the Australian choice.  Cummins just doesn't really rate Murphy as I reckon his (lack of ) use in the last match showed. Plus if the weather is iffy the extra batting is attractive to a side who only need a draw to keep the trophy - and seam bowling ought to be  somewhat assisted by the conditions.

Could backfire of course :  Old Trafford generally rewards spinners. But the weather might negate that this week...

I think Aussies ran their analysis and factored all that you say..possibility of time lost , more batting enables a draw, cloud /rain helps seamers. Further Green in can be used as a beast of burden for a bumper barrage
And as to the point in bold...what if it spins as it traditionally has done here, they probably calculated and found Head will be no less than Murphy
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Post by alfie Wed 19 Jul 2023, 9:04 am

KP_fan wrote:
alfie wrote:Sort of expected the Australian choice.  Cummins just doesn't really rate Murphy as I reckon his (lack of ) use in the last match showed. Plus if the weather is iffy the extra batting is attractive to a side who only need a draw to keep the trophy - and seam bowling ought to be  somewhat assisted by the conditions.

Could backfire of course :  Old Trafford generally rewards spinners. But the weather might negate that this week...

I think Aussies ran their analysis and factored all that you say..possibility of time lost , more batting enables a draw, cloud /rain helps seamers. Further Green in can be used as a beast of burden for a bumper barrage
And as to the point in bold...what if it spins as it traditionally has done here, they probably calculated and found Head will be no less than Murphy

If it spins like a top , KP_fan , you can back Moeen in for a matchwinning six wicket haul Smile

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Post by JDizzle Wed 19 Jul 2023, 9:35 am

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
JDizzle wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:
Duty281 wrote:https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/usman-khawaja-plays-key-role-in-over-rate-penalty-reduction-1387883

Great, the ICC will be more lenient on slow over rates.

I've never been too bothered by over rates. If you're watching a game it makes no difference to the enjoyment or lack of enjoyment if 90 overs are bowled or 80 overs are bowled. Quality always matters more than quantity.

Agree with this - but also the Aussies can’t be allowed to take the piss so Cummins and Starc can bowl the majority of the overs with more rest so they can hide Murphy and Green/Marsh.

This was particularly prevalent in that 2nd innings at Edgbaston where Cummins/Lyon bowled almost unchanged for 45 overs...but it took 4 hours for them to be bowled, with a spinner bowling!

If I was McCullum, I’d have been on the match referee and umpires about this as soon as the Aussie team was announced. They need to get them bowling Travis Head!

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Post by KP_fan Wed 19 Jul 2023, 10:09 am

JDizzle wrote:
Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
JDizzle wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:
Duty281 wrote:https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/usman-khawaja-plays-key-role-in-over-rate-penalty-reduction-1387883

Great, the ICC will be more lenient on slow over rates.

I've never been too bothered by over rates. If you're watching a game it makes no difference to the enjoyment or lack of enjoyment if 90 overs are bowled or 80 overs are bowled. Quality always matters more than quantity.

Agree with this - but also the Aussies can’t be allowed to take the piss so Cummins and Starc can bowl the majority of the overs with more rest so they can hide Murphy and Green/Marsh.

This was particularly prevalent in that 2nd innings at Edgbaston where Cummins/Lyon bowled almost unchanged for 45 overs...but it took 4 hours for them to be bowled, with a spinner bowling!

If I was McCullum, I’d have been on the match referee and umpires about this as soon as the Aussie team was announced. They need to get them bowling Travis Head!

Match Referees can only impose fines and not force anything else.
Fines too are expected to be reduced to 2.5% Match Fee per over delay after making all deduction... and will apply only if the inning extended beyond 80 overs.
Eng has batted more than 80 overs only once out of 6 innings
The fines I suspect is something home boards will pay back to players later.
The WTC point deduction is there but seemingly small and subjective.
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Post by Duty281 Wed 19 Jul 2023, 10:31 am

England win the toss again! Four times in a row. And will bowl first. Pitch looks a beauty, but the overhead conditions have tempted England to bowl.

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Post by JDizzle Wed 19 Jul 2023, 10:33 am

KP_fan wrote:
JDizzle wrote:
Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
JDizzle wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:
Duty281 wrote:https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/usman-khawaja-plays-key-role-in-over-rate-penalty-reduction-1387883

Great, the ICC will be more lenient on slow over rates.

I've never been too bothered by over rates. If you're watching a game it makes no difference to the enjoyment or lack of enjoyment if 90 overs are bowled or 80 overs are bowled. Quality always matters more than quantity.

Agree with this - but also the Aussies can’t be allowed to take the piss so Cummins and Starc can bowl the majority of the overs with more rest so they can hide Murphy and Green/Marsh.

This was particularly prevalent in that 2nd innings at Edgbaston where Cummins/Lyon bowled almost unchanged for 45 overs...but it took 4 hours for them to be bowled, with a spinner bowling!

If I was McCullum, I’d have been on the match referee and umpires about this as soon as the Aussie team was announced. They need to get them bowling Travis Head!

Match Referees can only impose fines and not force anything else.
Fines too are expected to be reduced to 2.5% Match Fee per over delay after making all deduction... and will apply only if the inning extended beyond 80 overs.
Eng has batted more than 80 overs only once out of 6 innings
The fines I suspect is something home boards will pay back to players later.
The WTC point deduction is there but seemingly small and subjective.

I think it’s quite naive to think that McCullum getting in the match referees/third umpire/standing umpires ear doesn’t affect anything. I see Khawaja has already been airing grievances about the fines they got trying to do exactly the same thing.

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Post by GSC Wed 19 Jul 2023, 10:36 am

Stokes fancies a bowl then.
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Post by Duty281 Wed 19 Jul 2023, 10:38 am

Nitin Menon and Joel Wilson the umpires for this one, so England must look after their reviews. They will be needed.

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Post by compelling and rich Wed 19 Jul 2023, 10:40 am

surprised at the bowling first, this probably the best of the weather we'll see over the 5 days and looks best time to bat

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Post by GSC Wed 19 Jul 2023, 10:45 am

I guess it's difficult to captain according to forecasts. Both wanted to bowl first.

Jimmy's last stand in an ashes series?
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Post by Duty281 Wed 19 Jul 2023, 10:46 am

I think England's plan is essentially based around the weekend weather. They want to bowl Australia out cheaply today, bash it around until early evening on Thursday, then bowl Australia out again by stumps on Friday. Win it in 3 days. They'll struggle to win it in 3 days batting first.

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Post by king_carlos Wed 19 Jul 2023, 10:47 am

Duty281 wrote:England win the toss again! Four times in a row. And will bowl first. Pitch looks a beauty, but the overhead conditions have tempted England to bowl.

Slightly concerned that's the wrong call to be honest. It looks a belter of a wicket at a glance but looks can be deceiving.

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Post by king_carlos Wed 19 Jul 2023, 10:50 am

No team has ever won a Test at OT having won the toss and bowled first. Great stat.

This England team do like bucking trends...

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Post by alfie Wed 19 Jul 2023, 11:00 am

Long batting list for Australia ! Need some good bowling today...

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Post by Duty281 Wed 19 Jul 2023, 11:00 am

I'm feeling pretty good. I think England will knock them over today. Broad, Wood and Woakes all in form, Anderson with a point to prove, and quite a few question marks over the Aussie batting, even if there's only one genuine tailender! I even think Joel Wilson will get a decision right.

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Post by alfie Wed 19 Jul 2023, 11:01 am

king_carlos wrote:No team has ever won a Test at OT having won the toss and bowled first. Great stat.

This England team do like bucking trends...

Records are made to be broken...

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Post by alfie Wed 19 Jul 2023, 11:02 am

Duty281 wrote:I'm feeling pretty good. I think England will knock them over today. Broad, Wood and Woakes all in form, Anderson with a point to prove, and quite a few question marks over the Aussie batting, even if there's only one genuine tailender! I even think Joel Wilson will get a decision right.

Duty confident !?!

That is a worry Smile

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Post by king_carlos Wed 19 Jul 2023, 11:04 am

Jesus Christ. Duty's being optimistic about this England Test team.

I think that's rocked the foundations of my cricket wisdom more than Root reverse scooping the first ball of a days play, Mo at 3 or Harry Brook bowling first change.

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Post by king_carlos Wed 19 Jul 2023, 11:05 am

Broad's been excellent this series but that first ball was the definition of a loosener!!

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Post by king_carlos Wed 19 Jul 2023, 11:10 am

Olly's, "Jimmy Anderson do something in a home Ashes", challenge commences. It would be a bit heart breaking if his (likely) swansong series remains as poor as his overall performance in T1 and T2. As said a few times I thought he actually bowled really well in the opening session at Lords without any luck. That aside he hasn't looked threatening though.

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Post by GSC Wed 19 Jul 2023, 11:16 am

Jimmy making things happen against Warner
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Post by Duty281 Wed 19 Jul 2023, 11:17 am

Good start from Anderson, got it going both ways. Broad a bit loose early on, however.

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Post by alfie Wed 19 Jul 2023, 11:19 am

Yes , Broad's not been quite on it so far. Liked that over from Jimmy though.

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Post by GSC Wed 19 Jul 2023, 11:21 am

Broad gets it right that time, Khawaja reviews
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Post by GSC Wed 19 Jul 2023, 11:22 am

Just the start England needed that
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Post by Duty281 Wed 19 Jul 2023, 11:22 am

Broad must read this forum, as he pins Khawaja stone dead. Khawaja tosses away a review as well.

599 for Broad! This has been one of his best ever series.

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Post by alfie Wed 19 Jul 2023, 11:23 am

Stuart heard me Smile

Good first wicket . Review was a real Shane Watson waste !

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Post by GSC Wed 19 Jul 2023, 11:26 am

Jimmy is right on it this morning
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Post by king_carlos Wed 19 Jul 2023, 11:29 am

Cracker from Broad. Khawaja is a big wicket. He's faced 3 times as many balls as the next batter in this series.

Jimmy is bowling far better. If he beats the bat without taking the edge many more times he might implode though.

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Post by AlciG Wed 19 Jul 2023, 11:30 am

Don't understand that review unless he thought he had an inside edge on that. Looked plumb.

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Post by GSC Wed 19 Jul 2023, 11:32 am

It looked a bit close on height but yeah thrown it away.

No ball #1 from Broad...
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Wed 19 Jul 2023, 11:32 am

king_carlos wrote:Olly's, "Jimmy Anderson do something in a home Ashes", challenge commences. It would be a bit heart breaking if his (likely) swansong series remains as poor as his overall performance in T1 and T2. As said a few times I thought he actually bowled really well in the opening session at Lords without any luck. That aside he hasn't looked threatening though.

The challenge is underway. What is it, 20 consecutive ashes tests he's played in England haven't won now or something? Aware that's obviously not all down to him of course, but they have won an awful bit he's not played in... Whistle
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Post by Duty281 Wed 19 Jul 2023, 11:37 am

31/1. Aussies have done well to only be one down at this stage. Anderson bowling beautifully, but not getting the rewards. Broad finding big swing in his previous over.

Time for Woakes.

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Post by king_carlos Wed 19 Jul 2023, 11:41 am

It's hooping and the carry is good. I think the decision to bowl first is vindicated to be fair. I was sceptical as said looking at the pitch.

England need to keep making inroads whilst it's swinging though.

I'd be very tempted to get Wood on early for a look at if he shapes it too. His pace got the headlines in that first spell of T3 as it was remarkable. He looked his most dangerous there as it was swinging at that pace as well.

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Post by compelling and rich Wed 19 Jul 2023, 11:41 am

GSC wrote:Jimmy is right on it this morning

tale of his series so far, had some good spells without reward

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Post by alfie Wed 19 Jul 2023, 11:50 am

Short spells for the old boys this morning...so KC gets his wish re Wood.

Only one wicket so far but you wouldn't say the batsmen have been altogether in command...although the run rate is excellent. England will want to strike again soon though as I think the pitch is OK and it's not as gloomy as was feared. How long does the sun stay out in Manchester ?

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Post by compelling and rich Wed 19 Jul 2023, 11:52 am

alfie wrote:Short spells for the old boys this morning...so KC gets his wish re Wood.

Only one wicket so far but you wouldn't say the batsmen have been altogether in command...although the run rate is excellent. England will want to strike again soon though as I think the pitch is OK and it's not as gloomy as was feared. How long does the sun stay out in Manchester ?

what is this sun thing you refer to?

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Post by Duty281 Wed 19 Jul 2023, 11:57 am

It's just settling down a bit now. Think Woakes and Wood should be bowling a bit fuller.

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Post by GSC Wed 19 Jul 2023, 12:03 pm

Might have been a tad quick to remove Broad and Anderson given the movement they were finding. Woakes and Wood haven't posed the same questions
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Post by alfie Wed 19 Jul 2023, 12:05 pm

Fifty up in 13 overs. Warner has nearly chopped on once or twice but he's generally looked more confident...and has run very aggressively to keep the score ticking over. Looks as if he is determined to kill off talk of his imminent demise.

Not to be impatient but I think England really need to nip one of these out soonish or fielding first might start looking a doubtful move. Drinks for now.

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Post by Duty281 Wed 19 Jul 2023, 12:09 pm

Glare stopped play.

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Post by compelling and rich Wed 19 Jul 2023, 12:12 pm

alfie wrote:Fifty up in 13 overs.  Warner has nearly chopped on once or twice but he's generally looked more confident...and has run very aggressively to keep the score ticking over. Looks as if he is determined to kill off talk of his imminent demise.

Not to be impatient but I think England really need to nip one of these out soonish or fielding first might start looking a doubtful move. Drinks for now.

especially when Australia will be bowling in much more favorable conditions. looking like a very strange decision

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Post by GSC Wed 19 Jul 2023, 12:14 pm

Chance flies between fielders.
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