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England's Summer of Cricket 2023, Featuring The Ashes

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Post by king_carlos Thu 20 Jul 2023, 2:22 pm

First topic message reminder :

50 up for Mo at an absolutely vital moment.  clap clap

A fortuitous way to get there with Cummins not picking it up. It frankly looked like he wasn't moving well chasing back for it either.

Starc back on which I think slows how key a period the Aussies know this is. He's looked their best bowler today.

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Post by king_carlos Fri 21 Jul 2023, 6:25 pm

Duty281 wrote:Imagine if Wood could play every test.

And Jof. I'd love so much to see them bowling from either end.

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Post by GSC Fri 21 Jul 2023, 6:25 pm

20 minutes, any chance of 1 more
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Post by alfie Fri 21 Jul 2023, 6:26 pm

Twenty-odd minutes left to do more damage ...got to go hard at Marsh now. Remaining bats aren't in quite such good nick ...one more tonight would be huge.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Fri 21 Jul 2023, 6:32 pm

Duty281 wrote:Imagine if Wood could play every test.

There’s an alternate world where him, Jofra and Olly Stone don’t all get injured after three games everytime and it’s a beautiful beautiful world
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Post by alfie Fri 21 Jul 2023, 6:33 pm

One of these tonight would be big. Rest of the bats aren't really in such great form so it would ramp up the pressure. Marsh has started off looking rather solid though...maybe a bit ominous !

England have done well in this session but still a lot to do...three more overs ?

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Post by GSC Fri 21 Jul 2023, 6:45 pm

6 more needed, it's in the hands of the weather gods now. England have dominated this test though.
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Post by king_carlos Fri 21 Jul 2023, 6:48 pm

4 wickets down and 162 runs behind. England have had a just about perfect day in a just about perfect Test. Will the weather break hearts? Now we pray.

Wood has been fantastic.

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Post by Duty281 Fri 21 Jul 2023, 6:51 pm

Lost another 11 overs today, meaning around 26 overs have been lost from the game. Vital stuff.

England did decently with the ball, but a fairly hopeless task after they batted on far too long. Not inconceivable that they could have bowled Australia out in 65 overs today, and chased down the remainder, levelling the series at 2-2. But not to be. Poor decision-making, as has been usual with England through this series.

So England are left to hope for a miracle from the weather. 66% chance of rain, or higher, from every hour from midnight tonight until the early hours of Monday morning, say the BBC. Met Office going for 80-90% on every hour of the test over the weekend. Not much chance then...

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Post by GSC Fri 21 Jul 2023, 7:09 pm

Possibly make a case that England should've declared around lunch when it was 200. Equally Australia could be a bit more positive, and be around parity at this point and England are looking at needing 4-5 wickets and then knocking off a total in any case. It's all hypothetical.

As it is, I think on balance they probably did the right thing. Just have to hope there is enough play left in this test to force a result on a fairly placid pitch
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Post by No name Bertie Fri 21 Jul 2023, 7:33 pm

It was the best time to get those runs: reasonable batting conditions and a worn out Australian side gave England the chance of getting quick runs and they got them.  As mentioned by others Australia have a long batting line up and so England would likely have to bat again when the Australians would be fired up again after some rest.
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Post by GSC Fri 21 Jul 2023, 7:46 pm

Think ultimately, we can say England should've done xyz, there just isn't a tactic that takes 20 Australian wickets and scores 500+ in 3 days in this pitch. If the weather doesn't behave itself over the weekend then we rue Cummins innings at Edgbaston, some fairly brain-dead batting at Lord's, the declaration of doom etc. But England have absolutely dominated and broken Australia here. I'm not going to criticise that if weather denies one of the biggest wins over Australia in a while
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Post by msp83 Fri 21 Jul 2023, 7:48 pm

England dominating all the way, but for the weather. Australia absolutely crushed. Haven't seen an Australian side feeling so helpless in the field too often.
Excellent from Wood, and Woakes bowled well. Anderson got a few balls to go pass the edge with the new ball, and was surching for some reverse later, though not with a great deal of success, and of course, no wickets... Broad couldn't produce one of those spells, and Moeen, despite getting a few to turn big, wasn't consistent enough with his lengths in particulur to make a significant impact.
Can't understand what is it that people are moaning about the non-declaration. England's only realistic chance on this flattish pitch was to bat once. If they had gone with a less than 200 lead on that pitch that hasn't altered significantly, it could even be the case that Australia might have been able to set a target, not insignificant in overcast conditions... Remember, the series will still be open for England if they go in even with a draw here.

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Post by Duty281 Fri 21 Jul 2023, 7:58 pm

The series is still open with a draw, but no one cares about a series draw when England don't currently have the urn. Would be different if England were in possession.

Australia are definitely finished though. It's a shame about the weather, because I'd genuinely back England to roll through and go on to a 3-2 series win from here otherwise. Australia haven't rotated, like that home series v India, and it's caught up with them, plus they couldn't recover from the loss of Lyon, which utterly nuked them.

Even the weather for the 5th test looks poor...

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Post by KP_fan Fri 21 Jul 2023, 8:59 pm

For me this series was interesting....because of High Quality of Cricket and humdinger close games in first three tests.
That's gone.....good for English fans but this test is a charade.......Eng would whip Aus like Ind whipped WI if time was not a constrain
Wash out even worse

Aus needs an overhaul next game....rest Starc, Cummins and bring in Boland/Neyser & Todd....Smith captaining won't be bad
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Fri 21 Jul 2023, 11:25 pm

Duty281 wrote:The series is still open with a draw, but no one cares about a series draw when England don't currently have the urn. Would be different if England were in possession.

Australia are definitely finished though. It's a shame about the weather, because I'd genuinely back England to roll through and go on to a 3-2 series win from here otherwise. Australia haven't rotated, like that home series v India, and it's caught up with them, plus they couldn't recover from the loss of Lyon, which utterly nuked them.

Even the weather for the 5th test looks poor...

Bloomin English weather - should've got the series started even earlier for the best of summer this year it seems like! Be a real shame for the series overall if the finale to this test, and the 5th are heavily rain affected affairs - especially after 3 such close and captivating tests to begin the series.

Aussies definitely on the ropes I agree Duty - Cummins, understandably, looks shattered (6 tests in like 7 and a bit weeks, along with captaincy was always going to be a huge ask), it seems like Hazlewood is on the latter end of his career with injuries catching upto him, Boland has been Bazball'd out of contention, Green really hasn't lived upto the hype this series and the Lyon injury only exacerbating things. Starc has impressed me, but does seem to be suffering fatigue himself too.

They've had such an impressive and potent attack for a long time - but like England, they're all getting on the wrong side of 30 now (in the Aussies case, the likes of Starc/Hazlewood albeit younger in age than a Broad/Anderson, have a lot of mileage in terms of injury and white ball cricket in the legs too). Feels like maybe this Aussie summer might be a good opportunity to blood some of the next generation (particularly eye'ing two tests vs West Indies as a good opportunity...)

Should note - good knock so far from Marnus. Showing some real guts out there.
Never seen Smith look this out of sorts though. Very very tame and unlike him dismissal today. Didn't have a fantastic time of it in the last Ashes in Australia too...maybe England have finally worked out how to get him out?! Erm
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Post by king_carlos Sat 22 Jul 2023, 12:28 am

Smith's technique requires simply absurd hand eye coordination. I think it's fair to query whether age has knocked that a bit. Admittedly it's only knocked him from leading the best since Bradman debate to being right in the midst of the best since Bradman debate. Which isn't exactly a bad spot still. His century at Lords was peerless for instance. Plus he scored a ton in WTC final. But he does look mortal now.

Re Aussie fast bowlers. Given I bring up England's luck with seamer injuries so much it is worth noting Australia's too for balance. Cummins, Starc and Hazlewood have been such guns for them it's easy to overlook the injuries just below that. James Pattinson was a phenomenal bowler who if not for those three is spoken of as another "generational" type quick bowling talent. He's retired early but is only 33. If fit maybe the Aussie quicks look less spent right now. Then Jhye Richardson is another exceptional talent who rarely plays, sadly. Again if he's here, with more Test experience, then maybe Australia can rotate better.

Whilst this one is slightly more niche I can't help but spare a thought for Billy Stanlake too. I remember seeing him early and thinking he could be anything. Jamieson's height but genuinely quick and he had a natural outswinger. He's another talent that has just never stayed fit consistently enough to develop his skills though. The more recent times I've seen him fleetingly able to bowl he frankly hasn't looked the same after so many layoffs. Such a shame when injuries do that to exciting talents.

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Post by KP_fan Sat 22 Jul 2023, 7:59 am

king_carlos wrote:Smith's technique requires simply absurd hand eye coordination. I think it's fair to query whether age has knocked that a bit. Admittedly it's only knocked him from leading the best since Bradman debate to being right in the midst of the best since Bradman debate. Which isn't exactly a bad spot still. His century at Lords was peerless for instance. Plus he scored a ton in WTC final. But he does look mortal now.

Re Aussie fast bowlers. Given I bring up England's luck with seamer injuries so much it is worth noting Australia's too for balance. Cummins, Starc and Hazlewood have been such guns for them it's easy to overlook the injuries just below that. James Pattinson was a phenomenal bowler who if not for those three is spoken of as another "generational" type quick bowling talent. He's retired early but is only 33. If fit maybe the Aussie quicks look less spent right now. Then Jhye Richardson is another exceptional talent who rarely plays, sadly. Again if he's here, with more Test experience, then maybe Australia can rotate better.

Whilst this one is slightly more niche I can't help but spare a thought for Billy Stanlake too. I remember seeing him early and thinking he could be anything. Jamieson's height but genuinely quick and he had a natural outswinger. He's another talent that has just never stayed fit consistently enough to develop his skills though. The more recent times I've seen him fleetingly able to bowl he frankly hasn't looked the same after so many layoffs. Such a shame when injuries do that to exciting talents.
Announcing summer seeing one Swallow ain't wise.
NOR Writing an obituary of Smith &Aussie bowling either.
FIRST credit goes to Stokes who a couple of tests back 90% of English supporters wanted to crucify

Second Aussie problem is just one big one ....Cummins the badly fatigued bowler has to captain also.
Rest Cummins and they will be OK in next test in the hands of Smith

Thirdly
Aussie reserve stock in seam bowling is not bad at all Abbot, Lance Morris, Richardson  Neyser  Boland all are better than reserve stock in most countries.
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Post by eirebilly_01 Sat 22 Jul 2023, 9:00 am

The weather actually looks as if there might be around 2 hours of play today. It will be a bowlers paradise so England have a big chance.

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Post by GSC Sat 22 Jul 2023, 9:32 am

Problem is gonna be how long it takes to dry the outfield sufficiently. Don't just need a clear spell, need a prolonged one
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Post by Duty281 Sat 22 Jul 2023, 9:38 am

Yeah, with all this rain it's probably going to take at least a two hour dry spell to be ready for play. And light is going to be an issue from 16:00 onwards in any case.

Chalk it up as a draw and move on.

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Post by VTR Sat 22 Jul 2023, 10:05 am

Just read the piece around Bairstow's injury. I get how hard it must be coming back, and how it's a success in that context. But it does make the selection itself even more questionable, which is the fault of those higher up, not the player himself. Its similar with Moeen, both are starting to play well, but it took half the series to get there. If England end up losing the series it is that poor start that is going to cost them

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Post by GSC Sat 22 Jul 2023, 10:23 am

Bucketing it down now, certainly won't be starting on time. Probably best to find something else to do today I think
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Post by GSC Sat 22 Jul 2023, 10:28 am

VTR wrote:Just read the piece around Bairstow's injury. I get how hard it must be coming back, and how it's a success in that context. But it does make the selection itself even more questionable, which is the fault of those higher up, not the player himself. Its similar with Moeen, both are starting to play well, but it took half the series to get there. If England end up losing the series it is that poor start that is going to cost them

I'd imagine they hoped his keeping would be good enough, even with the odd mistake. Made 80 first up at Edgbaston so not as if he's been a total dead weight. But yeah the keeping has just cost too much up to now.

We go round in circles on Mo, and I'm not looking to fill this day with that debate, there just isn't a good option (and indeed when they thought they didn't need a spinner they didn't use one at Lord's). Batting 3 the balance looks better, Mo's a tidy enough player to bat there, he just needs to knuckle down, it's far too easy to tempt him into something (multiple times in short succession too).
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Post by GSC Sat 22 Jul 2023, 10:34 am

Leach and Pope will almost certainly come back in when fit, and I'd imagine if England are to use a second spinner they're more likely to take Ahmed (I think it's India over the winter?)
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Post by Duty281 Sat 22 Jul 2023, 10:43 am

Yeah, India for five tests in January/February. England really aren't playing much test cricket for the next 11 months. Between the 1st August 2023 and early July 2024, England are only playing the five tests against India. Can't recall a comparative time when England have played so little test cricket.

Limited overs games for the rest of the summer, the World Cup in Oct/Nov, a limited overs tour of the West Indies in December, then the tour to India, a limited-overs visit from Pakistan in May, and the T20 World Cup in June next year filling the time.

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Post by GSC Sat 22 Jul 2023, 12:33 pm

No sign of an early lunch yet, though doubt it matters.

Some suggestion of a clear period later but not sure it's gonna fully stop or dry up before more rain.

A bit of optimism that we might get some play tomorrow afternoon (I apologise in advance for keeping Alfie up Wink )
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Post by alfie Sat 22 Jul 2023, 12:48 pm

Haha

Thanks for that kind thought , GSC . Have had a bit of a doze already in case The Vigil goes on for a few hopeful hours...

Trouble is it is a real pain when you wait for hours and hours - the rain stops - the inspections are made - an announcement follows - and you sit up alertly ... in time to see two balls before the heavens open again Sad

Fearing one of those days. But you just never know ...

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Post by alfie Sat 22 Jul 2023, 12:51 pm

Duty281 wrote:Yeah, with all this rain it's probably going to take at least a two hour dry spell to be ready for play. And light is going to be an issue from 16:00 onwards in any case.

Chalk it up as a draw and move on.

I am not sure Reverse Curse Hexing works on the weather , Duty Smile

But worth a try.

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Post by GSC Sat 22 Jul 2023, 12:56 pm

Touch Wood, but it's stopped raining...
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Post by king_carlos Sat 22 Jul 2023, 1:09 pm

GSC wrote:Touch Wood, but it's stopped raining...
Yep. Neighbouring areas such as Cheshire that were forecast downpours have been dry for a couple of hours apparently!

Now, we just have to hope it stays away long enough for the ground staff to work their magic and a few overs to be sneaked in. The forecast does look better for the afternoon. It feels unlikely but if they can sneak enough time in for a wicket or two today it would shorten the window needed tomorrow.

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Post by king_carlos Sat 22 Jul 2023, 1:13 pm

The covers are coming off the outfield but the hover cover is still in place of course. As expected there are big puddles in areas though.

Get a mop each from supersave for the England squad and few punters who have shown up and get them out there!

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Post by king_carlos Sat 22 Jul 2023, 1:19 pm

Inspection arranged for 2pm. That's more optimistic than things were looking at one stage anyway.

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Post by GSC Sat 22 Jul 2023, 1:24 pm

Probably be closer to 3pm if we do get on but yeah, more than we thought yesterday
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Post by GSC Sat 22 Jul 2023, 2:10 pm

Restart in 35 minutes if it doesn't rain

Cross everything
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Post by king_carlos Sat 22 Jul 2023, 2:11 pm

Puddles looking largely mopped up and the hover cover is off the strip...

With no more rain play will commence at 14:45  Fingers Crossed Fingers Crossed 

That's already far more positive than I was hoping for today!

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Post by Duty281 Sat 22 Jul 2023, 2:12 pm

alfie wrote:
Duty281 wrote:Yeah, with all this rain it's probably going to take at least a two hour dry spell to be ready for play. And light is going to be an issue from 16:00 onwards in any case.

Chalk it up as a draw and move on.

I am not sure Reverse Curse Hexing works on the weather , Duty Smile

But worth a try.

May have worked...

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Post by Soul Requiem Sat 22 Jul 2023, 2:19 pm

I've been listening to Asia's 'Who Will Stop The Rain' today, only just noticed the coincidence of that.

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Post by king_carlos Sat 22 Jul 2023, 2:22 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:I've been listening to Asia's 'Who Will Stop The Rain' today, only just noticed the coincidence of that.

Delighted to hear that. Some bloke in town just got arrested for touching himself in public and I was worried that might've been the trigger. I was terrified about what might be required in the town square tomorrow to keep the rain away again.

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Post by GSC Sat 22 Jul 2023, 2:27 pm

Since we can go on to 7.30 (we won't), does rather beg the question why we couldn't before. Not like we've bowled the overs on any day.

Even if the forecast is wrong, we'd have still bowled what we should have
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Post by Duty281 Sat 22 Jul 2023, 2:30 pm

GSC wrote:Since we can go on to 7.30 (we won't), does rather beg the question why we couldn't before. Not like we've bowled the overs on any day.

Even if the forecast is wrong, we'd have still bowled what we should have

Because it's cricket and cricket makes no sense.

For example, if they got back on at 6:59 they could play until 7:30, but if they couldn't get on until a minute later then it's stumps.

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Post by eirebilly_01 Sat 22 Jul 2023, 2:41 pm

It has to be Woakes and Wood to bowl first up today. Conditions are there for them and they have been the best bowlers. Strangely enough though, I would not disregard Ali in these conditions either...

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Post by GSC Sat 22 Jul 2023, 2:45 pm

Jimmy first up then

It's now or never
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Post by alfie Sat 22 Jul 2023, 2:46 pm

Amazing. Cricket to watch...😃

Now : can they take some wickets ?

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Post by king_carlos Sat 22 Jul 2023, 2:46 pm

Yep, I'd open up with Wood and Woakes who are marking out their runs.

But Jimmy has got the ball at the last moment from the opposite end to usual. There's a bit of a breeze so maybe Wood with the wind?

Unless a particular bowler is looking lethal I'd shuffle regularly. It's likely to be a short window and they have 5 bowlers to play with.

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Post by Soul Requiem Sat 22 Jul 2023, 2:46 pm

I'd have gone for Woakes and Wood, they looked the most likely yesterday.

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Post by eirebilly_01 Sat 22 Jul 2023, 2:48 pm

king_carlos wrote:
Unless a particular bowler is looking lethal I'd shuffle regularly. It's likely to be a short window and they have 5 bowlers to play with.

This 100%

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Post by GSC Sat 22 Jul 2023, 2:48 pm

Got to be Wood
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Post by msp83 Sat 22 Jul 2023, 2:53 pm

What? We are having some play? Going by all the forecast, I wasn't even bothering with this even on Cricinfo. And suddenly, we are on. And Anderson and not Woakes opening up for England. Wood from the other end... If Anderson can't make an impact next over, they should turn to Woakes, or Broad even for that Matter.

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Post by GSC Sat 22 Jul 2023, 2:56 pm

One over for Anderson and off? Didn't swing a lot
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Post by GSC Sat 22 Jul 2023, 2:58 pm

Apparently Woakes off for 10 minutes yesterday so couldn't open...
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