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England's Summer of Cricket 2023, Featuring The Ashes

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England's Summer of Cricket 2023, Featuring The Ashes - Page 4 Empty England's Summer of Cricket 2023, Featuring The Ashes

Post by msp83 Sun 30 Jul 2023, 14:17

First topic message reminder :

Wood's pace was not quite up there in that first over though he still was quick. The lengths weren't great. Fine half-century from Khawaja who is closing in on regaining the top-scorer position from Crawley for the series.

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Post by Duty281 Mon 31 Jul 2023, 16:06

alfie wrote:While we have time to kill , perhaps I should reply to Duty's suggestion that I was angling for a job as a Spin Doctor for England with my generally favourable treatment of their recent efforts Smile

I should make it clear - if it wasn't already - that I do not think they are the finished article by any means. And I also note that they have made a number of mistakes this summer  - which have contributed significantly to their failure to win back the Ashes.

But honestly : the fact that many (including you , Duty ?) have hinted that they ought to have beaten the WTC Champions but for "unforced errors" surely shows they have improved out of sight from the sorry state of March 2022  ?

You seem to suggest that nothing much has really changed : yet when I look back at discussions from that time (yes I am bored waiting for rain to go away ) I see that you declared they were a shambles with hardly any competent batsman ; predicted an easy win for NZ ; were ambivalent about the SA series and held out virtually no hope for any success in Pakistan... One might suggest that if you keep declaring it has all been down to luck and they are going to get their true desserts eventually , you will one day get it right Smile

I know you don't really like the McCullum/Stokes approach. Heck I know you didn't want Stokes as captain ; and regularly criticize his tactics. Fair enough ; we can always argue details. But I do think you might acknowledge that this leadership team has brought a lot of interest in the Test Match game in England - and not a little success.

I am disappointed this series has gone as it has. Think they could have done better.  But at the same time , just because they may end up with the "worst result against Australia in England" since 2001 , I reckon the bald margin rather understates the closeness of the contest in every match. And to say Australia were poor by their standards rather misses the point that perhaps they were below their best because England didn't let them produce their best ?

We can disagree ; in fact I am sure we will. But I'm not spin doctoring : just seeing reasons to be pleased with what has gone right , while acknowledging that they still need to refine their methods to go forward. Glass a little more than half full for me...

Will be a bit fuller if they can conjure seven wickets this evening !

1) England often beat Australia anyway, though. England were in no sorrier a state in 2022 than they were in 2007 (when they went on to win the Ashes in 2009) or 2014 (when they went on to win the Ashes in 2015) or even 2003 (when they went on to win the Ashes in 2005). So it's difficult to note improvement from 2022 to today based on England not winning a series that they usually win.

2) The errors were of their own making, however. Tactically/selection wise etc. That's the fault of Stokes/McCullum. If Foakes had been given the gloves, if Moeen hadn't been recalled, if flat pitches weren't requested...England have a much better chance.

3) I think we've covered previous series results before. England were quite fortunate to beat NZ last summer, in my view. De Grandhomme broke down with injury in the first test; if that doesn't happen I don't believe England go on to win it,  because NZ ended up having to bowl their three frontline bowlers on constant rotation. Second test Jamieson broke down, costing NZ another bowler. Does that incredible chase happen if Jamieson is fit and firing? Doubt it. And England completed three incredible comebacks. It was a strange series. Eng/SA was 50-50, as I said.

I think I misjudged Pakistan because I thought Pakistan would have learnt their lesson after the Australian series. In that series Pakistan prepared dead wickets and lost the series as a result. I thought they would prepare sub-continental turners which would give England a greater challenge, but they didn't. You missed out that I thought England would do well in NZ last winter.

4) I haven't declared it's all been down to luck. England have played brilliant cricket at times and I've praised them when it has happened. That tends to be forgotten, though.

5) I mainly didn't want Stokes to be captain because of his fitness and mental health issues. He seems to have got through it well, however.  I praise and criticise his tactics when I believe praise and criticism is merited. When you see nonsense like declaring on 393/8, a decision which played a key part in England going 1-0 down, I'm not going to be sounding off with high praise.

6) I've said Australia have been below their best mainly because of the injury to Lyon, which really knocked their bowling plans/rotation of seamers. England's bowlers, especially Woakes, Wood and Broad, have done very well in this series and I've praised them accordingly.

7) Overall, England have not (yet) made any steps forward under Bazball. That is my view. For about the last decade, England have been regularly able to beat the mid-tier and lower-tier test sides home and away, while carrying a strong home record against everyone. Has this improved under Bazball? No, I would say, because England have beaten NZ/SA/Pak (all mid-tier sides) and lost to Australia at home for the first time in 22 years.

There's often a lack of context applied to results, which I find frustrating. The oft quoted '1 win in 17' prior to Bazball fails to take into context that England were playing, almost entirely, the best of the best in that period. So then you have the context-less comparison of England starting with 9 wins in their first 10 tests under Bazball, if I recall right? And people who don't understand context look at those two stats and say: 'wow, England went from 1 win in 17 pre-Bazball, to 9 wins in 10 under Bazball, so there must be improvement! Right?' Wrong. Because the standard of opposition has gone from City, Arsenal and United to Palace, Forest and Wolves.

Incidentally, England are in a difficult run of test fixtures for the first time under the new regime, with 10 straight tests against Australia and India, and it's looking like the balance sheet will read '2 wins in 10' at the end of it. Then, even those who view results without context will have a dawning reality.


Last edited by Duty281 on Mon 31 Jul 2023, 16:13; edited 1 time in total

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Post by king_carlos Mon 31 Jul 2023, 16:08

I'm having a scan of the BBC live feed discussing future England Test sides and I'm surprised that none of them have mentioned Dillon Pennington. I've heard a few rumours now that Pennington is a seamer who along with Gus Atkinson (mentioned by Alastair Cook there) the bowling coaches feel they can get more pace out of as well as having decent skills with the wobble seam and swing.

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Post by Duty281 Mon 31 Jul 2023, 16:10

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Starting at 4:20 if no more rain

Should be clear from here on in. The big band of rain is now bothering the Belgians and the Dutch, probably forcing them in from their outdoor cafes.

52 overs of play. Sunshine. Shouldn't be hard for Australia from here, but let's see if someone can knock a couple over early, like Woakes this morning. Plus the new ball in 14 overs, although the target will be below 100 by then, most likely.

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Post by KP_fan Mon 31 Jul 2023, 16:10

52 overs
Means game will go on until.52 overs are bowled light permitting ?
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Post by Duty281 Mon 31 Jul 2023, 16:12

KP_fan wrote:52 overs
Means game will go on until.52 overs are bowled light permitting ?

Yes. Light should be fine because the sun is making an appearance and sunset is about five hours away.

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Post by Duty281 Mon 31 Jul 2023, 16:21

England favourites according to WinViz? On what planet?

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Post by GSC Mon 31 Jul 2023, 16:21

I do think the debrief will be important and doesn't just settle on we played well and didn't quite get it right in the big moments.

The pitch selection has been a major issue to me. A crocked bowling attack trying to take 20 wickets in 5 games on 4 pretty dead pitches has been a major issue. Added to that, that Jimmy has been largely ineffective and it's allowed Australia to just hang in. Think if England are a bit braver they could knock over a defensive Australian lineup while managing to still put runs on the board.

The batting statistic show why they want Jonny in the side. But giving him the gloves has backfired massively. His injury seems to have robbed him of some agility rather than it just being rust. How the side is balanced after this is concern but unless he manages to regain what he lost, he can't continue behind the stumps

Moenn is a favourite talking point, he was one of several unattractive options once Leach was injured. think England have needed a spinner to manage the seamers workload. Leach will presumably come back over the winter I guess but need a better plan b than Moenn.

Working out how to fit all the batsmen in is at least a good problem at this stage. The seam attack looks a lot more uncertain. Presumably Jimmy continues if Broad is retiring. Does Woakes tour given his record overseas. Plus whoever is actually fit at any given point
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Post by Duty281 Mon 31 Jul 2023, 16:26

Moeen to share the opening with Woakes. Guess they want to rattle through to the new ball.

Wonder how much Wood will be able to bowl this evening?

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Post by alfie Mon 31 Jul 2023, 16:27

Response noted , Duty thumbsup

As I say , we disagree on a lot of that ; but I am not going to argue point by point : which is OK , opinions will always differ. I guess I mainly feel that you tend to take a position that Stokes - or Southgate ! - is "wrong" about lots of stuff : and then dismiss any actual results that might suggest otherwise by insisting that such results mean little because the opposition were rubbish/handicapped/unlucky...

Trouble with that is : England can never "win" unless they are undisputed World Champions ! Reminds me a bit of Freddie Trueman on commentary , back in the day. He was always very critical of England ; and when they had a particularly good day , was wont to grumble that 400/4 wasn't bad : but the other team had "bowlers who would struggle to make a Minor Counties side"

Of course Freddie was retired and grumpy . I just think you are too young to embrace so much negativity Very Happy

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Post by compelling and rich Mon 31 Jul 2023, 16:32

Having seen this over from woakes I’d definitely be going with pace at both ends. Ali will give too many runs away and we don’t have that luxury

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Post by Duty281 Mon 31 Jul 2023, 16:36

Woakes bowling a beautiful spell, but not getting the luck to find an edge. England might not take the new ball at 80 overs, because this one seems plenty new enough!

Frustrating thing with Woakes is he does well at home, then gets picked overseas as a result. Overseas is where he's hopeless. As a result he falls out of favour by the time of the next home summer.

Australia still ticking nicely. 131 to get. The ball is doing plenty, however, and if England can get a new batsman out there...no, never mind, Marsh is in next.

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Post by alfie Mon 31 Jul 2023, 16:37

How has Woakes not found an edge ? Making the damn ball talk...but somehow Smith and Head contrived to miss by microns 😮

Get one of these and I fancy there would still be a chance. But they'd better get one SOON...

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Post by Duty281 Mon 31 Jul 2023, 16:42

Now these umpires can't even calculate the number of overs! Doh

Highest level of the game, this. 47, not 52. Shouldn't make a great difference.

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Post by alfie Mon 31 Jul 2023, 16:48

Plenty of overs left even with an apparent reduction just announced. Aussies taking every opportunity to score anyway so I doubt they are running out of time. Actually look more like taking a wicket again since the resumption ; but the fine margins are eluding them.
Close lbw shout then - glad they didn't burn their last review!

Smith loves The Oval ! Love that cover drive thumbsup

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Mon 31 Jul 2023, 16:48

That Stokes drop of Smith clearly the key moment here - that was the opportunity I think.
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Post by guildfordbat Mon 31 Jul 2023, 16:49

Dreadful that the umpires cocked up how many overs can be bowled in this final session. Just confirmed as 47 and not 52 as they said before they came out. Might not make any difference but that is not the point. However unlikely, could make a huge difference which is the point.

The players of both sides deserve massive credits for their efforts in this series but they and the spectators have been badly let down by the umpiring and scheduling of the matches.

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Post by compelling and rich Mon 31 Jul 2023, 16:51

Ah what do I know 😄😂

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Post by GSC Mon 31 Jul 2023, 16:51

MO
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Post by Duty281 Mon 31 Jul 2023, 16:52

Smith gets to 50, his first fourth innings fifty since 2016....but Moeen gets Head out again! Sharp turn.

England have the door ajar.

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Post by alfie Mon 31 Jul 2023, 16:52

One for Moeen ! Lovely piece of bowling ...Heads gone .

Still a pulse...

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Post by GSC Mon 31 Jul 2023, 16:53

Now here comes England's nemesis
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Post by Duty281 Mon 31 Jul 2023, 16:59

Chris Woakes! Yahoo

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Post by VTR Mon 31 Jul 2023, 16:59

GSC wrote:Now here comes England's nemesis
This really is going to be so much worse when a Marsh brother caresses the winning runs

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Post by GSC Mon 31 Jul 2023, 17:00

Sir Chris Woakes

No less than this spell deserved. Now game on
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Post by alfie Mon 31 Jul 2023, 17:00

Half an hour of Marsh will just about kill this...does he ever grow extra skills playing against England ! Starting with a couple of lovely shots : he will be out to get rid of Moeen.

Stokes will have tricky decisions to make with this bowling attack : not enough runs left to pull the wrong levers. The possible thirty or so extra runs I thought England would have wanted on Saturday evening are looking even more sorely missed...

But wait ! Woakes has got the wicket of Smith ! Excellent bowling ; another good catch for Crawley clapclapclap

Things are hotting up ...

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Post by Duty281 Mon 31 Jul 2023, 17:02

My word, Bairstow going for the redemption grab!

England well in front.

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Post by GSC Mon 31 Jul 2023, 17:03

Holy Poopie he's out
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Post by Duty281 Mon 31 Jul 2023, 17:04

VTR wrote:
GSC wrote:Now here comes England's nemesis
This really is going to be so much worse when a Marsh brother caresses the winning runs

Going to hurt even more when Murphy and Hazlewood have a 50 run stand to take Australia over the line.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Mon 31 Jul 2023, 17:04

English weather for once in your existence do the right thing
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Post by alfie Mon 31 Jul 2023, 17:05

And now Marsh is gone ! What a catch by Bairstow ! How we all wish he could channel that sort of reaction all the time 😃

Moeen is bowling a treat. Carey and the bowlers left now...

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Post by guildfordbat Mon 31 Jul 2023, 17:06

Having (totally fairly) slated Bairstow's keeping, that was a smart reaction and take.

110 neeeded and 4 wickets to take. England favourites in my book.

Sir Christopher of Woakes and Lord Mo of Moeenshire appearing to have turned things round once more ....

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Post by GSC Mon 31 Jul 2023, 17:08

What is happening
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Post by Duty281 Mon 31 Jul 2023, 17:09

Woakes. What a day he's had. Amazing.

Australia left with Carey and Cummins, plus whatever Murphy and Hazlewood can muster.

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Post by guildfordbat Mon 31 Jul 2023, 17:09

And again!

I was going to say I would have batted Cummins before Starc at this time. Starc's a biffer but Australia needed to calm things down.

Surely too much for Cummins and Carey to do now ....

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Post by Marky Mon 31 Jul 2023, 17:09

GSC wrote:What is happening

I came here to write this post word for word

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Mon 31 Jul 2023, 17:09

I'm dangerously aroused by this Sir Chris spell
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Post by alfie Mon 31 Jul 2023, 17:09

Now how will Starc and Carey play this ?

Well Starc won't play it at all ! Woakes and Crawley again ...275/7 😯. Am I dreaming ?

Here comes Cap'n Pat...

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Post by GSC Mon 31 Jul 2023, 17:16

How much further can Woakes go in this spell. Two overs to the new ball if England want it
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Post by Duty281 Mon 31 Jul 2023, 17:18

I'd definitely keep with this ball. Wouldn't want to risk picking another dud!

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Mon 31 Jul 2023, 17:25

Duty281 wrote:I'd definitely keep with this ball. Wouldn't want to risk picking another dud!

Think you still have to take it - Anderson and Broad. Go and do the business for us one last time fellas.
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Post by dummy_half Mon 31 Jul 2023, 17:27

3 wickets left, 92 runs required. Surely the Aussie tail can't wag sufficiently again to take a win like in the first test?

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Post by alfie Mon 31 Jul 2023, 17:27

I refuse to start counting feathered ground-based pellet eating birds yet...

Cummins did the business at Edgbaston ; Carey can really bat - although he's not done well recently. And we saw Murphy with his Head imitation on Friday.

They seem to be still going for it. Not going to sit and block...

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Post by king_carlos Mon 31 Jul 2023, 17:28

I think I'd take the new ball but have Mo from one end for an over a least. Sometimes a new ball from a spinner can really bite as the seam is rock hard. Sometimes they slide through. Broad from the other end when Woakes is spent.

That's a really nice steer from Cummins for four. He's looked knackered for 2 Tests now but is still fighting. Fair play to the opposition skipper. He is some cricketer.

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Post by GSC Mon 31 Jul 2023, 17:31

MO
GSC
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Post by alfie Mon 31 Jul 2023, 17:31

Won't take the new ball yet. Moeen to the left hander is appealing still...

Woakes will go as long as he can. And maybe Wood with another burst. Ninety runs left so just a little room to move - though after Edgbaston you don't want this pair getting much closer ...

Aha ! Moeen gets the right hander ! Stokes made no mistake with that catch 😀

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Post by Duty281 Mon 31 Jul 2023, 17:31

That's Cummins accounted for.

Carey's basically going to have to do a Headingley 2019 for his side to win...and he's joined by a bespectacled spin bowler.

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Post by guildfordbat Mon 31 Jul 2023, 17:34

alfie wrote:Won't take the new ball yet. Moeen to the left hander is appealing still...

Woakes will go as long as he can. And maybe Wood with another burst.  Ninety runs left so just a little room to move - though after Edgbaston you don't want this pair getting much closer ...

Aha ! Moeen gets the right hander !  Stokes made no mistake with that catch 😀

In order to show he had it under control, I thought he was going to take a photo of the ball before letting it go.

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Post by king_carlos Mon 31 Jul 2023, 17:35

Looks like I jinxed Cummins there!

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Post by Soul Requiem Mon 31 Jul 2023, 17:36

I get on the train and Australia are three down, get off and immediately check the score and they're now eight down.

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Post by alfie Mon 31 Jul 2023, 17:36

All left handers left ... Come on Moeen...

Two to go. You could almost put Root on the other end ! Won't get the ball off Woakes though...

And I don't think they'll be bouncing Murphy, somehow.

Ah Woakes is having a breather...Broad on to try and finish this . Please Stuart : let's have the poetic ending ?

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