England still winning the RWC at a canter - The RWC phase

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Assuming and currently it is quite a big assumption England get through group I can't see them winning QF against whoever they face. Bloody hopeless

Regarding Kruis I think it's like a lot of rugby players, especially tall ones. They put on a lot of weight through heavy training and massive food intake to get to required bulk for playing but once finished they revert "back to normal". For some the effort to put on and maintain muscle mass just isn't worth it post career as it serves no purpose.

Who is the next Kruis coming through ....thats the question.

Maybe Chessum Jr?

Geordie wrote:Who is the next Kruis coming through ....thats the question.

Maybe Chessum Jr?

Quite possibly but going back to Kruis thing and weight, I'd say both Chessums could benefit from some extra mass. Imagine impact they could make with an extra stone or so of muscle if done properly.

Chessum Jr will defo put some mass on. Hes 6'9 and looks like he could really bulk out.

I see Ollie as more athletic...so he might put a bit on but maybe not too much more. Dont forget hes still over 18st i believe.

Geordie wrote:Chessum Jr will defo put some mass on. Hes 6'9 and looks like he could really bulk out.

I see Ollie as more athletic...so he might put a bit on but maybe not too much more. Dont forget hes still over 18st i believe.

Lewis Chessum has already bulked up a fair bit over the course of his England under 20s time. He's well over 18 stone currently, there's a bit more to add on no doubt. If we use RG Snyman as a rough body shape guide, as they are of the same height and of similar build, he should be quite big and he's not exactly small now.

Ollie appears to generally be noted as being 18 and a half stone which is about what you'd expect. Given that size and his mobility it seems a happy compromise currently.

Ollie Chessum looks like he's come back from injury even bigger to me. Certainly bigger than Lawes at his bulkiest when he was a second row. I'd be surprised if Ollie's far off Kruisers weight during his playing days now. He's been hitting like a train in the tackle. I think he's already deservedly first choice alongside Itoje and could become a fantastic international lock.

I was chatting with a pal who's a rugby journalist currently in France for the RWC. Through discussing O'Gara potentially taking over from Farrell Snr we went off on a tangent about Faz being a likely Lions coach. He mentioned that a few pundits keep tipping Chessum as a likely tourist with the trajectory he's on. "Skills that any coach would like", being his exact summation.

I think we've all seen that since he came through KC...even a dumb a$$ like me could see he has talent

No 7&1/2 wrote:Based on the group and likely quarter finalists I don't think it would be an excellent achievement though I do get the feeling that Borthwick's performances have led to a lowering of expectations post Jones.

The expectations lowered under Jones rather than after. When Borthwick took over so close to the Six Nations and RWC the prevailing feeling was that they were unlikely to magically improve for the Six Nations and that given the draw a semi-final at the RWC wouldn't be an big achievement but should represent progress. Which is broadly what posters here seem to think now.

I'd say most of the England posters here largely seem to feel that whilst the attack has been utterly abysmal there are signs of improvement in other areas. Largely fitness, defence, scrum and lineout. MM seems to entertainingly swing from everything's doomed to this team could cure cancer depending on the previous weekend. Then you've planted your flag in the curious hill, "even if they end up being good they'll still be s**t", and plan to die on it.

Telegraph expects Smith to start at full back against Chile, with Farrell at 10, and Ford on the bench. All three could be on the pitch together some time in the second half.

king_carlos wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Based on the group and likely quarter finalists I don't think it would be an excellent achievement though I do get the feeling that Borthwick's performances have led to a lowering of expectations post Jones.

The expectations lowered under Jones rather than after. When Borthwick took over so close to the Six Nations and RWC the prevailing feeling was that they were unlikely to magically improve for the Six Nations and that given the draw a semi-final at the RWC wouldn't be an big achievement but should represent progress. Which is broadly what posters here seem to think now.

I'd say most of the England posters here largely seem to feel that whilst the attack has been utterly abysmal there are signs of improvement in other areas. Largely fitness, defence, scrum and lineout. MM seems to entertainingly swing from everything's doomed to this team could cure cancer depending on the previous weekend. Then you've planted your flag in the curious hill, "even if they end up being good they'll still be s**t", and plan to die on it.

I wasn't sure under Jones but thought with the groups we stood a good chance of a final and he normally has at least a big plan for someone ala NS in the last semi. I just don't think they will be good, I haven't seen anything to encourage me so far. Fitness seems good, but it did under Jones. Defence, well, still loads of holes vs Argentina (understandable) and Japan, they have some good individuals. Defence for me will be tested in the QF onwards, I could see quite a big loss coming in the SF. It's not that the team or players a Sh** though, the coaches on the whole are (relative to other international teams).

Rugby Fan wrote:Telegraph expects Smith to start at full back against Chile, with Farrell at 10, and Ford on the bench. All three could be on the pitch together some time in the second half.

It'll be good to see how the structure works with two playmakers from the start. First with NEv and now with WW they seem to be building a structure that requires two playmakers. Then the midfield alignment in defence with Smith-Farrell-Marchant fell apart against Scotland. They reverted to Lawrence-Slade. A ball carrier at 12 and our best defensive 13.

The structure still looked like it needed two playmakers though. Slade has just never been up to that against international defences. Likewise Malins. Daly seems to have fleetingly been tried in that role recently but again it's not worked.

When Smith has come on to offer that second playmaker it's allowed them to add a layer to the attack which has added options. At Tigers Borthwick would frequently do similar late in the second half. Burns, Hegarty and latterly Atkinson coming on at 15. Gopperth at 12. With 20 minutes left they'd bring a second playmaker on and go through more phases, backing their fitness.

I find it very odd that they're building a structure that needs two playmakers unless their plan is to use two longer term. Hence why I don't think Ford-Farrell is finished yet.

Times predicts:

Rodd, Dan, Sinckler, Martin, Ribbans, Ludlam, Willis, Vunipola, Care, Farrell, Arundell, Lawrence, Daly, Malins, Smith.

So he just wants all his playmakers on together!

Ah Bevan Rodd. Does he actually exist under Borthwick? Or is he just a name because nobody's seen him this World Cup!!

So playing two FB's on the wing and a FH at FB. Makes total sense

Bet there will be a few who will say the Italy Uruguay game is great when the England games have been terrible

No rumours I've seen on the bench yet. George, Lawes and Steward three I've seen reported as getting rested though. Curry banned of course. Ford apparently on the bench.

Rumoured starting XV:

1.Rodd 2.Dan 3.Sinckler 4.Martin 5.Ribbans 6.Ludlam 7.Willis 8.Vunipola
9.Care 10.Farrell 11.Arundell 12.Lawrence 13.Daly 14.Malins 15.Smith

Presumably a bench something like:

16.Walker 17.Genge 18.Stuart 19.Chessum 20.Earl 21.Mitchell 22.Ford 23.Marchant

Rugby Fan wrote:Telegraph expects Smith to start at full back against Chile, with Farrell at 10, and Ford on the bench. All three could be on the pitch together some time in the second half.

So England, for years now with their 'imagination not wanted' style of play, veers unbelievably to a total fever dream in one week.   My goodness, all it takes is fear of losing to Chile to bring out the radical in Borthwick....

Would be good to see Smith start at 15. Much like Barrett playing 15 for NZ.

Hopefully its something that continues into the 6N's.

lostinwales wrote:So playing two FB's on the wing and a FH at FB. Makes total sense

Malins has played a lot more wing than fullback in his career. That may change going forward but right now he's got lots of wing experience.

Playing a flyhalf at fullback is hardly a radical ploy. Just a shame we're shackling Smith with Farrell instead of playing him with Ford.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

lostinwales wrote:So playing two FB's on the wing and a FH at FB. Makes total sense

Malins has played a lot more wing than fullback in his career. That may change going forward but right now he's got lots of wing experience.

Playing a flyhalf at fullback is hardly a radical ploy. Just a shame we're shackling Smith with Farrell instead of playing him with Ford.

I wasn't too sure of this point actually so I did a check.

Turns out Malins has played 41 times on the wing......27 at FB....and (and a higher than I thought) 18 times at fly half. Last year was the big turn actually where he played 22 of his 24 games on the wing.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

lostinwales wrote:So playing two FB's on the wing and a FH at FB. Makes total sense

Malins has played a lot more wing than fullback in his career. That may change going forward but right now he's got lots of wing experience.

Playing a flyhalf at fullback is hardly a radical ploy. Just a shame we're shackling Smith with Farrell instead of playing him with Ford.

I don't get this shacking thing about Farrell vs Ford. Week in week out Saracens regularly look more expansive than Sale. And the current tactics from England are to just kick the ball away anyway.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

lostinwales wrote:So playing two FB's on the wing and a FH at FB. Makes total sense

Malins has played a lot more wing than fullback in his career. That may change going forward but right now he's got lots of wing experience.

Playing a flyhalf at fullback is hardly a radical ploy. Just a shame we're shackling Smith with Farrell instead of playing him with Ford.

I don't get this shacking thing about Farrell vs Ford. Week in week out Saracens regularly look more expansive than Sale.  And the current tactics from England are to just kick the ball away anyway.

Sarries did adapt a more attacking game plan last season. Based it around Farrell's short passing game and the fact they've got three other playmakers in the backline with him.

To be fair to Farrell if an England attack coach would focus on having options run off the shoulders of the flyhalf it would suit Farrell a lot more, playing out the back is not where he flourishes. His long passing game isn't that strong (for an international flyhalf), particularly off his weaker hand.

That's ignoring alot of what he's done for England. He's always been above Ford in the pecking order, when we're playing well or badly. I can't see Borthwick not bringing him straight back tbh. It may well be at 12 seeing as Tuilagi got something like 3 passes vs Japan though.

I'm still wondering what this match lineup will be asked to do too. Are we trying to simulate a last 10 minutes of the game over a longer period. Will we see Ford allowed to pass it?

king_carlos wrote:No rumours I've seen on the bench yet. George, Lawes and Steward three I've seen reported as getting rested though. Curry banned of course. Ford apparently on the bench.

Rumoured starting XV:

1.Rodd 2.Dan 3.Sinckler 4.Martin 5.Ribbans 6.Ludlam 7.Willis 8.Vunipola
9.Care 10.Farrell 11.Arundell 12.Lawrence 13.Daly 14.Malins 15.Smith

Presumably a bench something like:

16.Walker 17.Genge 18.Stuart 19.Chessum 20.Earl 21.Mitchell 22.Ford 23.Marchant

So Itoje dropped if not in 23 and not rested. Doubt it somehow. Itoje does need to miss this game, not needed and surely needs rest.

Quite why Smith is starting 15 not Malins but Malins on wing. FB is Malins preferred position anyway.

Anyway, 15/23 somewhat irrelevant as England going to win regardless.

Ths smacks somewhat of keeping squad members happy by giving them a game as a few here won't feature in more meaningful matches Same of course for all teams though.

I think what most of us are interested in is tactics rather than team. If we see repeat of Japan then I suspect a lot will not be overly impressed.

This game is a bit nothing regardless mm. He changes the tactics or allows people to play what they see, it's a bit so what. We're pretty much on hold until the QF.

Yes I know hence I said 15/23 irrelevant as England will win.

But personally I won't be happy if we see repeat of Japan tactics, neither will crowd in ground neither will media and I suspect majority of supporters. Don't forget this is me saying it and I value win above all else!

England won't beat better teams in a power game and if they kick loosely to said better sides they'll be cut to pieces.

Seeing as England to my mind are stuck somewhere inbetween a variation of tactics might work. Endlessly trying to smash it up the middle won't and endless kicking won't.

mountain man wrote:Yes I know hence I said 15/23 irrelevant as England will win.

But personally I won't be happy if we see repeat of Japan tactics, neither will crowd in ground neither will media and I suspect majority of supporters. Don't forget this is me saying it and I value win above all else!

England won't beat better teams in a power game and if they kick loosely to said better sides they'll be cut to pieces.

Seeing as England to my mind are stuck somewhere inbetween a variation of tactics might work. Endlessly trying to smash it up the middle won't and endless kicking won't.

Disagree..

England know what they need to do.

They've gone back to basics. They're playing a pressure and kicking game...which in all fairness ALL the top sides to...the difference is they are all 4-6 years down the line. We arent.

Ill be utterly amazed if we dont play the same way on Saturday...but there will be an intent on improving the quality of the kicking and making better decisions when the chances are there.

yappysnap wrote:Would be good to see Smith start at 15. Much like Barrett playing 15 for NZ.

Hopefully its something that continues into the 6N's.

Jordie Barrett is 6' 5".
Marcus Smith is 5' 9".

doctor_grey wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Would be good to see Smith start at 15. Much like Barrett playing 15 for NZ.

Hopefully its something that continues into the 6N's.

Jordie Barrett is 6' 5".  
Marcus Smith is 5' 9".

I think Yappy means Beauden rather than Jordie Doc.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Would be good to see Smith start at 15. Much like Barrett playing 15 for NZ.

Hopefully its something that continues into the 6N's.

Jordie Barrett is 6' 5".  
Marcus Smith is 5' 9".

I think Yappy means Beauden rather than Jordie Doc.

Ah, OK. Mrs. Barrett spent too much time having babies. Can't keep 'em all straight.

mountain man wrote:

king_carlos wrote:No rumours I've seen on the bench yet. George, Lawes and Steward three I've seen reported as getting rested though. Curry banned of course. Ford apparently on the bench.

Rumoured starting XV:

1.Rodd 2.Dan 3.Sinckler 4.Martin 5.Ribbans 6.Ludlam 7.Willis 8.Vunipola
9.Care 10.Farrell 11.Arundell 12.Lawrence 13.Daly 14.Malins 15.Smith

Presumably a bench something like:

16.Walker 17.Genge 18.Stuart 19.Chessum 20.Earl 21.Mitchell 22.Ford 23.Marchant

So Itoje dropped if not in 23 and not rested. Doubt it somehow. Itoje does need to miss this game, not needed and surely needs rest.

Quite why Smith is starting 15 not Malins but Malins on wing. FB is Malins preferred position anyway.

Anyway, 15/23 somewhat irrelevant as England going to win regardless.

Ths smacks somewhat of keeping squad members happy by giving them a game as a few here won't feature in more meaningful matches Same of course for all teams though.

I think what most of us are interested in is tactics rather than team. If we see repeat of Japan then I suspect a lot will not be overly impressed.

Those are just three I've seen reported as being rested already. Obviously, Itoje can be rested as well just not reported yet.

As for keeping squad members happy. Don't basically all sides at the RWC rotate for their easiest pool game? That's why we have squads surely.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

lostinwales wrote:So playing two FB's on the wing and a FH at FB. Makes total sense

Malins has played a lot more wing than fullback in his career. That may change going forward but right now he's got lots of wing experience.

Playing a flyhalf at fullback is hardly a radical ploy. Just a shame we're shackling Smith with Farrell instead of playing him with Ford.

I wasn't too sure of this point actually so I did a check.

Turns out Malins has played 41 times on the wing......27 at FB....and (and a higher than I thought) 18 times at fly half. Last year was the big turn actually where he played 22 of his 24 games on the wing.

Daly was being picked ahead of Malins at 15 as well as Goode last season. I rate Malins as a fullback, not a winger, but that does feel a little bit Ben Spencer. Whenever Spencer is raised as a potential international SH I can't get away from him leaving Sarries at 28-years-old having never nailed the starting shirt outright. He was just getting the big games at the end but rotated heavily with WW throughout.

Yes, Sarries are very strong. Internationals usually nail down a starting shirt at club level even in strong environments though. Earl for instance pushed past some fantastic players to become indispensable to them.

yappysnap wrote:Would be good to see Smith start at 15. Much like Barrett playing 15 for NZ.

Hopefully its something that continues into the 6N's.

Beauden played 15 as well as 10 from a young age being a key distinction. A lot of his early bench apps were at fullback. He's also one of the quickest in rugby. So he covers ground very easily in the backfield. Even then there was a bedding in process when he shifted to fullback as their starter Fossie with deciding to get as many playmakers as possible into the backs. Beaudy figured it out quicker than most would but it still took a bit of time.

I really like the tactic of getting another playmaker into the backline in the final quarter. Smith is perfect for that and England's tactics for managing the backfield mean our halfbacks are spending a lot of time back there anyway. So making those sort of shifts shouldn't be a huge upheaval.

It's interesting that after a period of positional flexibility being viewed as an awful thing that it's now being seen so much. For a long time, "players out of position", was a tedious phrase often spouted. We're seeing it all over teams recently though. Jordie and Reiko at centre. Beauden at 15. France shifting Dupont to 10 late in games. Garbisi at 12 to get 2 playmakers without Allan at 15. Cian Healy covering TH and hooker. Marco van Staden and Deon Fourie covering hooker and back row. Savea playing 8 and openside seamlessly. I often argued when it was getting whined about that flexibility has always been a big part of rugby. I think it's a great thing if we see it more and more.

king_carlos wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Would be good to see Smith start at 15. Much like Barrett playing 15 for NZ.

Hopefully its something that continues into the 6N's.

Beauden played 15 as well as 10 from a young age being a key distinction. A lot of his early bench apps were at fullback. He's also one of the quickest in rugby. So he covers ground very easily in the backfield. Even then there was a bedding in process when he shifted to fullback as their starter  Fossie with deciding to get as many playmakers as possible into the backs. Beaudy figured it out quicker than most would but it still took a bit of time.

I really like the tactic of getting another playmaker into the backline in the final quarter. Smith is perfect for that and England's tactics for managing the backfield mean our halfbacks are spending a lot of time back there anyway. So making those sort of shifts shouldn't be a huge upheaval.

It's interesting that after a period of positional flexibility being viewed as an awful thing that it's now being seen so much. For a long time, "players out of position", was a tedious phrase often spouted. We're seeing it all over teams recently though. Jordie and Reiko at centre. Beauden at 15. France shifting Dupont to 10 late in games. Garbisi at 12 to get 2 playmakers without Allan at 15. Cian Healy covering TH and hooker. Marco van Staden and Deon Fourie covering hooker and back row. Savea playing 8 and openside seamlessly. I often argued when it was getting whined about that flexibility has always been a big part of rugby. I think it's a great thing if we see it more and more.

We move more and more back to Rugby League...

If there's a skillset that suits it's all good. But I do prefer to see that basic testing at club level to give the players the best chance. Like the eternal discussion around 12, be it Simmonds, Earl or Steward...just get their clubs to try it first else it's a bit risky like a 7 1 bench split.

Speaking of which should we try a 8 forwards bench in case we need to practice for SA down the line?

To be fair we already did a 7-1 split. It was just with the starting forwards in the Six Nations. We had 7 forwards then Dombrandt practicing his impression of a dementia patient wandering around a town square in his pants thinking it's his living room.

Goes back round to my point of Harlequins seeing whether he's a good outside centre before trying it with England.

True to be fair. "Alex, we need to test you out for international rugby. You're going to defend in the 13 channel, we want you stand there like a scarecrow whilst a crossfield kick goes to the opposition winger. Then, once he's already gone you need to half heartedly jog after him to make it appear like you tried". It does seem like a perfect tactical nuance for the Premierships current standards I must say.

I am looking forward to Billy out there.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I am looking forward to Billy out there.

The worst thing for England is Billy looking good against Chile and everyone thinking he's back to his best, when in fact you have Ludlum who is playing brilliantly every game who can play 8 and actually do things around the pitch, rather than big bill who hasn't been effective at international level for quite some time.

Now if.he has actually had a resurgence and is back up where he was that's good for England.

But playing Chile won't give us that information

I don't think anyone is going to play their way carpet. Decisions have been made, and I can't see Ludlam at 8 come the knockouts.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I don't think anyone is going to play their way carpet. Decisions have been made, and I can't see Ludlam at 8 come the knockouts.

I think him and Earl are fighting for that spot...unless Curry isnt ready for what ever reason.

Id be happy with a backrow of
6 Lawes
7 Earl
8 Ludlum

I see Tom Willis had quite a debut for Saracens....17 carries, 8 defenders beaten and 2 turnovers.

Tillis (I'm not giving up on this) impressed me in his brief warmup opportunity. He made metres in tricky situations a couple of times. From a scrum and maul respectively IIRC. Really good leg drive to keep going and allow support to arrive. Small mercies given how our number 8s have been recently.

Having him at the same club as Billy will give an interesting direct comparison. Billy has been mince for England but generally stands out in the Prem. I'm excited to see if Tillis can push past him.

I'm excited by what CCS might do competing with Dombrandt at Quins as well. Another who has consistently looked excellent in the Premiership, then looked like a snowman during the thaw for England.

Do we reckon it would push 30 divided by 4 over the edge if folk start rating Tillis higher than Jillis...?

"Do we reckon it would push 30 divided by 4 over the edge if folk start rating Tillis higher than Jillis...?"

Further!!!! Is that possible?

Can we stop with the digs king? If people prefer Tom to Jack it's up to individuals. I think Jack Willis is the second best flanker we have after Curry, I'd play them 2 every game but I appreciate people may prefer Billys back up!

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:"Do we reckon it would push 30 divided by 4 over the edge if folk start rating Tillis higher than Jillis...?"

Further!!!!  Is that possible?

It's not really possible no. I'm resigned to watching dross for the next few years it's hard to be bothered.

Beeb

'Marcus Smith starts at full-back and captain Owen Farrell returns at 10 in an experimental, much-changed England side to face Chile on Saturday.

Smith impressed in the position after coming off the bench in recent weeks, including in the Pool D win over Japan.

Farrell appears for the first time at France 2023 after a four-match ban. George Ford is named as a replacement.

Ollie Lawrence, Henry Arundell and Max Malins also come in, with Billy Vunipola and Jack Willis in the pack.

Lawrence, named the Premiership's player of the year in May after five tries in 12 appearances for Bath, is paired in midfield with Elliot Daly, who is one of only three players retained from the starting line-up that beat Japan.

Wings Arundell and Malins will make their first appearances of the tournament, while prop Bevan Rodd and second row David Ribbans also earn their first Rugby World Cup minutes.

Hooker Theo Dan, second row George Martin and scrum-half Danny Care start for the first time in the campaign too.

Short presentational grey line
England: Smith; Arundell, Daly, Lawrence, Malins; Farrell, Care; Rodd, Dan, Sinckler, Ribbans, Martin, Ludlam, Willis, Vunipola.

Replacements: Walker, Marler, Stuart, Chessum, Earl, Youngs, Ford, Marchant

Short presentational grey line
Victory against Chile would put England on the brink of qualification after wins over Argentina and Japan.

"One of the many great things about the Rugby World Cup is that the tournament provides an excellent opportunity to play against teams that we rarely have a chance to see," said head coach Steve Borthwick before the teams' first meeting.

"It is for that reason that we are particularly looking forward to testing ourselves against Chile on Saturday."

His side conclude their Pool D campaign against Samoa in a fortnight's time before a potential quarter-final against Wales, Australia or Fiji.'