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England still winning the RWC at a canter - The quarter finals and beyond

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Sun 08 Oct 2023, 11:20 am

First topic message reminder :

Carried on..............

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Post by Geordie Sat 04 Nov 2023, 7:10 am

For the 6n I have a suspicion we'll see something like

4 Itoje
5 Martin
6 Chessum
7 Curry
8 Earl

Martin is the conundrum...until he's a top class lineout jumper we'll need a jumper at 6 or 8. But Martins performance and physicality v the boks would say he needs to be in at lock and develop him.

Surely with Borthwick and Tigers guiding him his lineout will come through.

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Post by lostinwales Sat 04 Nov 2023, 10:04 am

England women stuffed NZ in NZ to win the WXV1 cup. Women's rugby seems to go from strength to strength. I wonder if there will ever be a Men's version?

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Post by king_carlos Sat 04 Nov 2023, 10:53 am

Martin was leading the lineout when he played alongside Ribbans. So clearly he's rated in that regard. He's also meant to be very good in maul defence. As a jumper he just doesn't get off the ground as quickly as the strong international jumpers though.

There's definitely a big gap in that regard with lineouts at international level. At club level you can be a standout lineout leader without being an excellent jumper. As long as you can read the opposition well, make good decisions and are composed in the air players carve out Prem careers by just being an 8 out 10 at the lineout most weeks. Calum Green did that very well for Falcons and Tigers. Whereas at international level you have to be an exceptional jumper. The speed that even the massive guys like Etzebeth, Lood, Retallick, etc get up in the air is insane. If a jumper can't do that then guys like Woki can target them.

Martin is definitely a better jumper than Launchbury for instance. Compared to Chessum, Itoje and Lawes there is a notable difference in how quickly he gets up off the ground though.

I'm not sure that Borthwick will replace Lawes with another elite jumper at 6 though. When he wasn't available in the Six Nations they used Ludlam. In the playoff it was Underhill. That to me suggests that Lawes was being picked for his breakdown work, tackling and carrying first. All of which he did terrifically during the RWC. With him also being an outstanding lineout leader a bonus. When he wasn't available they seemed to prioritise replacing that loose work first, rather than picking a lineout option.

With Japan (they basically had one jumper in Luke Thompson!) and England (Curry as a third jumper) we saw Borthwick be happy to build lineouts with 2 jumpers though. It often just means cutting numbers more often, which improves retention but weakens the platform. Or throwing to less preferable areas which also limits the platform. When they used Curry as a third option England would often settle for Kruis/Lawes and Itoje being man marked by opposition jumpers in the middle, then throwing to the front for Curry. That limits both the maul and off the top attacking opportunities.

That can be worked around though. NZ with Brad Thorn (terrific player but a poor jumper) were the masters of that. They'd cut numbers using Ali Williams and Keiron Read in a shortened lineout then use Kaino, Thorn and Nonu as crash ball runners on phase 1 as a means to consistently get quick phase 2 ball nearer the middle of the field.

I have a feeling that Borthwick will like having Chessum or Martin on the bench for impact too. For better or worse we are seeing the bench forwards have a bigger and bigger impact.

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Post by doctor_grey Sat 04 Nov 2023, 10:56 am

Geordie wrote:For the 6n I have a suspicion we'll see something like

4 Itoje
5 Martin
6 Chessum
7 Curry
8 Earl

Martin is the conundrum...until he's a top class lineout jumper we'll need a jumper at 6 or 8. But Martins performance and physicality v the boks would say he needs to be in at lock and develop him.

Surely with Borthwick and Tigers guiding him his lineout will come through.
 
But afterwards he will also have an unnatural desire to kick everything away.....

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Post by Geordie Sat 04 Nov 2023, 1:20 pm

king_carlos wrote:Martin was leading the lineout when he played alongside Ribbans. So clearly he's rated in that regard. He's also meant to be very good in maul defence. As a jumper he just doesn't get off the ground as quickly as the strong international jumpers though.

There's definitely a big gap in that regard with lineouts at international level. At club level you can be a standout lineout leader without being an excellent jumper. As long as you can read the opposition well, make good decisions and are composed in the air players carve out Prem careers by just being an 8 out 10 at the lineout most weeks. Calum Green did that very well for Falcons and Tigers. Whereas at international level you have to be an exceptional jumper. The speed that even the massive guys like Etzebeth, Lood, Retallick, etc get up in the air is insane. If a jumper can't do that then guys like Woki can target them.

Martin is definitely a better jumper than Launchbury for instance. Compared to Chessum, Itoje and Lawes there is a notable difference in how quickly he gets up off the ground though.

I'm not sure that Borthwick will replace Lawes with another elite jumper at 6 though. When he wasn't available in the Six Nations they used Ludlam. In the playoff it was Underhill. That to me suggests that Lawes was being picked for his breakdown work, tackling and carrying first. All of which he did terrifically during the RWC. With him also being an outstanding lineout leader a bonus. When he wasn't available they seemed to prioritise replacing that loose work first, rather than picking a lineout option.

With Japan (they basically had one jumper in Luke Thompson!) and England (Curry as a third jumper) we saw Borthwick be happy to build lineouts with 2 jumpers though. It often  just means cutting numbers more often, which improves retention but weakens the platform. Or throwing to less preferable areas which also limits the platform. When they used Curry as a third option England would often settle for Kruis/Lawes and Itoje being man marked by opposition jumpers in the middle, then throwing to the front for Curry. That limits both the maul and off the top attacking opportunities.

That can be worked around though. NZ with Brad Thorn (terrific player but a poor jumper) were the masters of that. They'd cut numbers using Ali Williams and Keiron Read in a shortened lineout then use Kaino, Thorn and Nonu as crash ball runners on phase 1 as a means to consistently get quick phase 2 ball nearer the middle of the field.

I have a feeling that Borthwick will like having Chessum or Martin on the bench for impact too. For better or worse we are seeing the bench forwards have a bigger and bigger impact.

Yes but they had Chessum and Itoje...two very good lineout operators..but Martin and Chessum / Itoje would not be as strong...so I just feel you would need another option...until Martin was at that level which he not ultimately reach. But the rest of his game would say he should be included..if he can follow up the SA performance consistently....

Borthwick has huge decisions all of the team.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sat 04 Nov 2023, 5:41 pm

Depends on the 8 as well. Get a passable jumper at 8 and it gives options. Mercer is good in that regard, Tom Willis not bad either.

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Post by Geordie Sat 04 Nov 2023, 6:00 pm

Oh i agree Sam...a decent jumping 8 would be a novelty after Billy V for 10 years...though Lawes has been class.

It's just nailing down the right balance from 4 to 8...and maybe a bit of horses for courses also...

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Post by king_carlos Sun 05 Nov 2023, 1:16 am

My bigger point being that Borthwick has been flexible with how he's built lineouts throughout his coaching career. I don't think they'll be wedded to needing a lineout option in the back row above all else. Lawes developing into a Lions blindside who was also world class in the lineout made that decision easy for the RWC though.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun 05 Nov 2023, 2:59 pm

Plenty of options as always. Many of them though are playing a very different game plan.

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Post by Yoda Sun 05 Nov 2023, 4:49 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:Depends on the 8 as well. Get a passable jumper at 8 and it gives options. Mercer is good in that regard, Tom Willis not bad either.
If earl stays at 8 which I think he will then a taller no 6 might have to be used. Isn't there a rumour that Pearson is highly regarded by borthwick for his potential in the line out? If we do see curry, Underhill and earl back row can one of them be used in the lineout? If not perhaps use of a shortened five man lineout looking to get the ball coming off the top. Ireland manage with pom who's not tall for a rugby player

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Post by Geordie Sun 05 Nov 2023, 7:43 pm

king_carlos wrote:My bigger point being that Borthwick has been flexible with how he's built lineouts throughout his coaching career. I don't think they'll be wedded to needing a lineout option in the back row above all else. Lawes developing into a Lions blindside who was also world class in the lineout made that decision easy for the RWC though.

No I understand whay you were saying and i agree SB is a good lineout coach and will not be stuck. I was just saying that he will have two jumpers though ......regardless of where they are in the pack. And Having Martin in the row (as he works on that aspect) would mean another jumper at 6 or 8 to compliment Itoje or Chessum....

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Post by Geordie Sun 05 Nov 2023, 7:50 pm

Yoda wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:Depends on the 8 as well. Get a passable jumper at 8 and it gives options. Mercer is good in that regard, Tom Willis not bad either.
If earl stays at 8 which I think he will then a taller no 6 might have to be used. Isn't there a rumour that Pearson is highly regarded by borthwick for his potential in the line out? If we do see curry, Underhill and earl back row can one of them be used in the lineout? If not perhaps use of a shortened five man lineout looking to get the ball coming off the top. Ireland manage with pom who's not tall for a rugby player

I think it depends who he picks at lock.

If he goes Chessum and Itoje then you can cope...and Curry has been an option of a 3rd jumper.

But if its Itoje and Martin...I really wouldn't be surprised to see Chessum at 6..or an 8 who can offer an option..are Mercer or Willis genuine jumpers?

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Post by lostinwales Mon 06 Nov 2023, 12:25 am

Talking about Locks I was reminded of the Kpoku twins - who never translated their U20 form to the professional ranks, at least at Saracens they didnt. Both seem to be doing good things in France now. Apparently they have a little brother, Junior (who is even bigger) - 6'8'' at 18 etc. Apparently he started this season at Exeter but has now also gone to France.

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Post by king_carlos Mon 06 Nov 2023, 1:39 am

Jonathan never had quite the same buzz about him as Joel. Unless I'm mistaken I think Jon was in U20s squads but never made an appearance. Joel looked like a brilliant talent though. So powerful in the loose but was also calling lineouts at a very young age. He's been getting used at flanker recently by Lyon. They seem to be going down the La Rochelle road of gigantic forward packs.

I honestly didn't realise there was another brother at Chiefs. As you say he's signed for Racing from a quick google. A great place to keep developing.

I expect we will see more players going to France that early with the Prem weakening and Top 14, ProD2, Federale, etc strengthening. If you spend 3 years in FFR approved academies before turning 21 or are registered for 5 years with the FFR before turning 23 you get JIFF status for life in the French system. So you count as a home grown player in their matchday quotas. If French club rugby keeps growing as it is then that could be absolutely huge in terms of potential deals and wages. Not to mention that their academies are terrific, they have multiple professional leagues to get experience in and they have the U23 Espoirs to keep talent moving between age grade and senior rugby. Potential JIFF status for life, a chance to live in a foreign country as a young adult and develop as a rugby player in a better system. That's going to look like a pretty awesome deal to talented youngsters with any concerns about opportunities in the disintegrating English domestic structure.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 06 Nov 2023, 7:04 am

Players go abroad as there isn't as much money. That in part improves next year as the wage cap rises again though with 2 less teams you'll obviously not have as many players naturally. The RFU probably need to relax the foreign based rules on players but currently there's no one who seems integral to Borthwicks plans.

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Post by lostinwales Mon 06 Nov 2023, 9:14 am

king_carlos wrote:Jonathan never had quite the same buzz about him as Joel. Unless I'm mistaken I think Jon was in U20s squads but never made an appearance. Joel looked like a brilliant talent though. So powerful in the loose but was also calling lineouts at a very young age. He's been getting used at flanker recently by Lyon. They seem to be going down the La Rochelle road of gigantic forward packs.

I honestly didn't realise there was another brother at Chiefs. As you say he's signed for Racing from a quick google. A great place to keep developing.

I expect we will see more players going to France that early with the Prem weakening and Top 14, ProD2, Federale, etc strengthening. If you spend 3 years in FFR approved academies before turning 21 or are registered for 5 years with the FFR before turning 23 you get JIFF status for life in the French system. So you count as a home grown player in their matchday quotas. If French club rugby keeps growing as it is then that could be absolutely huge in terms of potential deals and wages. Not to mention that their academies are terrific, they have multiple professional leagues to get experience in and they have the U23 Espoirs to keep talent moving between age grade and senior rugby. Potential JIFF status for life, a chance to live in a foreign country as a young adult and develop as a rugby player in a better system. That's going to look like a pretty awesome deal to talented youngsters with any concerns about opportunities in the disintegrating English domestic structure.

And in this case the Kpoku's were already French speakers

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Post by Rugby Fan Mon 06 Nov 2023, 9:41 am

lostinwales wrote:And in this case the Kpoku's were already French speakers

Same was true of Delon and Steffon Armitage, and they never returned to the English game.

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Post by Poorfour Mon 06 Nov 2023, 9:58 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Players go abroad as there isn't as much money. That in part improves next year as the wage cap rises again though with 2 less teams you'll obviously not have as many players naturally. The RFU probably need to relax the foreign based rules on players but currently there's no one who seems integral to Borthwicks plans.

The test case is Marchant - who moved abroad partly because Eddie wasn't picking him consistently, but was central to the RWC team (one of only 3 players to start every game, according to Rugbypass). The RFU hasn't given him a dispensation because his move was voluntary, unlike Arundell, whose move was forced and has been granted one.
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Post by Geordie Mon 06 Nov 2023, 10:17 am

Marchant was excellent through the World Cup....another clear note Jones didnt know his ar$e from his elbow!!


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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 06 Nov 2023, 10:41 am

Merchant was excellent defensively. Didn't get the chance to see what he can do in attack of course. Still see him as a centre who covers wing rather than a starting wing though. Probably see Slade and Tuilagi this 6ns. Another kicking option though.

WC just seemed strange in terms of some of the picks,and still some need for players covering multiple positions even with the increase in squad size.

The foreign based players thing is already getting a little muddled. Arundell would have been able to get a contract in England but probably not for his going rate. The rules bend for him and given he's probably not going to get a shot this 6ns to come out and say he's available already will have I terested a few players I'm sure.

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Post by king_carlos Mon 06 Nov 2023, 12:19 pm

Slade is yet another case study in a player being dropped by England after being poor, then shining in the Prem. He's looked good so far for Chiefs. It really is a dismal standard compared to where the league was and could be.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 06 Nov 2023, 1:10 pm

Has he looked good?again great defence but for someone who came through as a fly half,granted he got a lot of early caps at 12 then 13, he is a bit pants on the ball.

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Post by mountain man Mon 06 Nov 2023, 4:01 pm

Afternoon all. I'm back after several trips abroad.

Slade? Hmmm, looks great but rarely delivers to potential for England. It will be disappointing but predictable if it's Manu and Slade in centres for 6N. I'm rather hoping the rebuild starts sooner than later.

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Post by Geordie Mon 06 Nov 2023, 4:07 pm

Yeah id not want to see Manu and Slade to be fair.

Lawrence should be in there somewhere...and then its a who with? KC fancies Daly there...i still think I prefer a wing spot for him and work out another centre...be it one of the 12's we've all talked about or a young 13 coming through.

12. Lawrence and 13. A.n.other
or
12. A.n.other and 13. Lawrence

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Post by Cumbrian Tue 07 Nov 2023, 12:58 pm

Looks like the 'Saxons' are returning to action next year against Portugal, which is good news. Should be a few interesting names involved with that.
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Post by carpet baboon Tue 07 Nov 2023, 2:05 pm

I sat make a new Churchill cup. Saxons, wolfhounds, Portugal Spain Romania, Germany, Georgia etc. Play it every 2 years

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Post by Geordie Tue 07 Nov 2023, 2:30 pm

Cumbrian wrote:Looks like the 'Saxons' are returning to action next year against Portugal, which is good news.  Should be a few interesting names involved with that.

Really? Thats great news!

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Post by Geordie Tue 07 Nov 2023, 2:34 pm

https://www.englandrugby.com/news/article/england-a-to-face-portugal-in-february-2024

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Post by Geordie Tue 07 Nov 2023, 8:54 pm

Apparently Manu broke his hand twice during the world cup....
First time vs Samoa and then a second break vs Argentina

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Post by Geordie Tue 07 Nov 2023, 9:46 pm

What would your Saxons side be?

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Post by Geordie Tue 07 Nov 2023, 10:09 pm

I see Zac Mercer has had ankle surgery on Monday...no detail of how long he will be out for.

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Post by king_carlos Tue 07 Nov 2023, 10:36 pm

If just picking the players I rate highest who I wouldn't have in the training squad for the Six Nations then something like below off the top of my head:

1.Baxter 2.Blamire 3.Balmain 4.Isiekwe 5.Tizard 6.CCS 7.Kenningham 8.T Willis
9.Warr 10.F Smith 11.Ibitoye 12.Ojomoh 13.Joseph 14.Radwan 15.Carpenter

16.Frost 17.Obano 18.Heyes 19.Coles 20.Fisilau 21.Randall 22.S James 23.Hodge

It's one of those things that's very dependent on who you would and wouldn't want in the main squad though. Then injuries. If Quirke's injury is a long term one then I'd probably have Warr as the third SH in the main squad on recent form for instance.

It often only took a couple of standout senior performances from U20 standouts to get them around Saxons sides too. Someone like Afolabi Fasogbon has massive potential and could offer things many English props don't. At Tigers I think Emeka Ilione just needs to stay fit, get one or two starts and suddenly some very good players in the Tigers back row might struggle to get the shirt off him. Luck can play such a role at those ages though.

As said many times the Curry twins and Aaron Hinckley are case studies in that. All looked incredible talents at age grade. Ben was in the England squad before Tom, got a horrid injury, it set back his physical development. Tom stayed fit, replaced Ben, became an England star and by the time Ben was playing with Sale and the U20s again Tom looked like a different build physically. Ben has developed more slowly but is now very good for Sale and their skipper. Hinckley has struggled to stay on the field at all. In a different world maybe Tom's the one who barely plays, Ben is a Lion and Hinckley captaining his club. All three had the talent at U20s.

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Post by Rugby Fan Tue 07 Nov 2023, 10:51 pm

Tuilagi broke his hand at the World Cup

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2023/11/07/manu-tuilagi-broke-hand-england-rugby-international-career/

Centre Manu Tuilagi twice broke his hand during England’s World Cup campaign but has told Sale Sharks’ director of rugby Alex Sanderson that he has no intention of giving up on his international ambitions.

Tuliagi broke the metacarpal bone against Samoa which led to a metal plate being inserted in his right hand, only to break the same bone in the third place play-off against Argentina. Now the 32-year-old is facing a four to six week lay-off, although Sale hope to have him back for their opening Champions Cup match against Stade Francais on December 10.

Yet such was Tuilagi’s desperation to represent England that he not only played through the pain barrier but also nearly missed the birth of his third child to take part in the third-placed play-off against Argentina on October 27. “ It [the injury] is frustrating to me, of course it is, but he is in a World Cup, his last World Cup, ”Sanderson said.

“If you asked Manu again, he would have wanted to play. His wife gave birth last Friday to another little boy and she was demanding that he came home. She could have popped at any time and he wouldn’t come home for his child’s birth, he was staying out for the third-fourth play-off so that shows where Manu’s head is at.

“I asked him ‘how was it Manu, are you hanging up your international boots?’ And he was like ‘you will have to put me down physically, lethally inject me, to stop me playing international rugby.’ He is loving it at the moment.

“He rebroke it in the third-place play-off. He broke it three games before against Samoa and then broke it again. It is just collateral damage from playing in the World Cup. He is going to be four to six weeks. Knowing Manu, it will be three to five.”

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 08 Nov 2023, 8:17 am

So tuilagi isn't retiring then.

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Post by mountain man Wed 08 Nov 2023, 8:27 am

Danny Care has said he won't retire either, so it's up to other centres and 9s to show Borthwick they are good enough to be picked for England. Then of course Borthwick would have to pick them, question is would he.

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Post by Geordie Wed 08 Nov 2023, 8:27 am

king_carlos wrote:If just picking the players I rate highest who I wouldn't have in the training squad for the Six Nations then something like below off the top of my head:

1.Baxter 2.Blamire 3.Balmain 4.Isiekwe 5.Tizard 6.CCS 7.Kenningham 8.T Willis
9.Warr 10.F Smith 11.Ibitoye 12.Ojomoh 13.Joseph 14.Radwan 15.Carpenter

16.Frost 17.Obano 18.Heyes 19.Coles 20.Fisilau 21.Randall 22.S James 23.Hodge

It's one of those things that's very dependent on who you would and wouldn't want in the main squad though. Then injuries. If Quirke's injury is a long term one then I'd probably have Warr as the third SH in the main squad on recent form for instance.

It often only took a couple of standout senior performances from U20 standouts to get them around Saxons sides too. Someone like Afolabi Fasogbon has massive potential and could offer things many English props don't. At Tigers I think Emeka Ilione just needs to stay fit, get one or two starts and suddenly some very good players in the Tigers back row might struggle to get the shirt off him. Luck can play such a role at those ages though.

As said many times the Curry twins and Aaron Hinckley are case studies in that. All looked incredible talents at age grade. Ben was in the England squad before Tom, got a horrid injury, it set back his physical development. Tom stayed fit, replaced Ben, became an England star and by the time Ben was playing with Sale and the U20s again Tom looked like a different build physically. Ben has developed more slowly but is now very good for Sale and their skipper. Hinckley has struggled to stay on the field at all. In a different world maybe Tom's the one who barely plays, Ben is a Lion and Hinckley captaining his club. All three had the talent at U20s.

Yeah its difficult when we dont really know exactly who'll be in the Senior Squad...but as SB is picking the squad it might give some insight in to where he is going in the future with the senior squad.

What do you think of Dan Frost...was excellent for Exeter at the weekend and surely a competitor for Theo Dan if they are looking for an all action hooker...

Ehren Painter? Try scoring machine now for Exeter...

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 08 Nov 2023, 8:31 am

mountain man wrote:Danny Care has said he won't retire either, so it's up to other centres and 9s to show Borthwick they are good enough to be picked for England. Then of course Borthwick would have to pick them, question is would he.

And then radically alter his tactics.

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Post by lostinwales Wed 08 Nov 2023, 11:31 pm

Geordie wrote:I see Zac Mercer has had ankle surgery on Monday...no detail of how long he will be out for.

According to the beeb 'months'. Terrible timing.

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Post by Rugby Fan Thu 09 Nov 2023, 12:08 am

lostinwales wrote:
Geordie wrote:I see Zac Mercer has had ankle surgery on Monday...no detail of how long he will be out for.

According to the beeb 'months'. Terrible timing.

For all our back row options, that's been a position with a high attrition rate for England for the last twenty years. As lostinwales says, this is terrible timing, as the start of a World Cup cycle is usually the time when coaches are most open to looking at new possibilities.

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Post by Geordie Thu 09 Nov 2023, 8:01 am

Well sadly this is life in rugby. Happened with Ben and Tom Curry for example

Means one door shuts for a while...but the likes of Tom Willis or Dombrandt or Chandler Cunningham or Barbeary can make still fight for the spot.

And Mercer could still make a fight for the Summer tour of NZ if he comes back firing on all cylinders.

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Post by mountain man Thu 09 Nov 2023, 8:17 am

From what I saw in RWC I'm not sure likes of Dombrandt has the required physicality to compete Internationally. He didn't come out well against France pre RWC and when you look at how likes of PSTD, Savea etc played there is a massive gap.
I'm hoping CCS pushing on and gets into senior team, he definitely has the potential.

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Post by Geordie Thu 09 Nov 2023, 8:40 am

I think Dombrand thas probably played his last game for England...but everytime hes been asked to improve an area he generally has...so you cant write him off.

However he has fallen to the bottom of the list...and is behind Willis and Barbeary and Mercer....all of whom are chasing Earl at the moment.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 09 Nov 2023, 9:12 am

It's a shame for Mercer but there's not been much to suggest that he was very far up in Borthwick's pecking order. Looked at and discarded in favour of playing a flanker as cover at 8.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 09 Nov 2023, 9:17 am

Just seen Steward's comments on the BBC. The players really have bought into the thinking that the grumbles are merely about how bad the team is rather than a combo of that and the tactics.

'"After the Fiji game we were going to the World Cup and - you could try to ignore it, but you could still hear that noise - and feel that there wasn't too much hope and optimism around," Steward said.

"The most important thing is the attitude and belief of the playing group, and not for one moment - even after the Fiji game - did we not believe we were capable of going to France and achieving what we did. And we are disappointed that we didn't go all the way.

"It's nice now and I hope we have brought a lot of people back onside, and hope they have seen what we are capable of now.'

They got to where the vast majority expected and suddenly they're turned the corner. Bit worrying to be honest.

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Post by lostinwales Thu 09 Nov 2023, 9:21 am

Physicality can be developed but unfortunately can cause a great deal of wear and tear on the user. Mercer was very highly rated in France which should bode well for England but we do have options.

as long as they don't include Billy...

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Post by mountain man Thu 09 Nov 2023, 9:33 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Just seen Steward's comments on the BBC. The players really have bought into the thinking that the grumbles are merely about how bad the team is rather than a combo of that and the tactics.

'"After the Fiji game we were going to the World Cup and - you could try to ignore it, but you could still hear that noise - and feel that there wasn't too much hope and optimism around," Steward said.

"The most important thing is the attitude and belief of the playing group, and not for one moment - even after the Fiji game - did we not believe we were capable of going to France and achieving what we did. And we are disappointed that we didn't go all the way.

"It's nice now and I hope we have brought a lot of people back onside, and hope they have seen what we are capable of now.'

They got to where the vast majority expected and suddenly they're turned the corner. Bit worrying to be honest.

I don't think so, the players HAVE to believe they can and will win otherwise the game(s) is lost before kick off. Also what do you really expect Steward to say, that they knew they weren't good enough? No player is going to admit that even if privately they thought it. OK getting to SF was always achievable given draw but England still had to get there and they ended up 3rd which pre RWC most players/fans would have jumped at.
Don't forget Ireland were favourites to go all way as were France.

I also think it's far easier to progress from a winning position or at least a good position which England are at, it's at least something to build on. Imagine if England had lost in QF, that was a definite possibility at the time.

I don't think all is sweetness and light with England, I was one who was very critical of tactics during RWC so they must evolve to improve and have a chance at competing for 6N but there is hope.


Last edited by mountain man on Thu 09 Nov 2023, 9:36 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Geordie Thu 09 Nov 2023, 9:34 am

Tom Willis is playing well...Barbeary back starting for Bath...Earl still playing well...

Im curious if they stay with Earl at 8...or if they move him to the flank for "bigger 8" like Willis...


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Post by Geordie Thu 09 Nov 2023, 9:42 am

mountain man wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Just seen Steward's comments on the BBC. The players really have bought into the thinking that the grumbles are merely about how bad the team is rather than a combo of that and the tactics.

'"After the Fiji game we were going to the World Cup and - you could try to ignore it, but you could still hear that noise - and feel that there wasn't too much hope and optimism around," Steward said.

"The most important thing is the attitude and belief of the playing group, and not for one moment - even after the Fiji game - did we not believe we were capable of going to France and achieving what we did. And we are disappointed that we didn't go all the way.

"It's nice now and I hope we have brought a lot of people back onside, and hope they have seen what we are capable of now.'

They got to where the vast majority expected and suddenly they're turned the corner. Bit worrying to be honest.

I don't think so, the players HAVE to believe they can and will win otherwise the game(s) is lost before kick off. Also what do you really expect Steward to say, that they knew they weren't good enough? No player is going to admit that even if privately they thought it. OK getting to SF was always achievable given draw but England still had to get there and they ended up 3rd which pre RWC most players/fans would have jumped at.
Don't forget Ireland were favourites to go all way as were France.

I also think it's far easier to progress from a winning position or at least a good position which England are at, it's at least something to build on. Imagine if England had lost in QF, that was a definite possibility at the time.

I don't think all is sweetness and light with England, I was one who was very critical of tactics during RWC so they must evolve to improve and have a chance at competing for 6N but there is hope.
Ill say it for the last time and im not saying again as its boring...SB clearly had a plan for the World Cup. Hes improved the scrum, the lineout working and the breakdown is at its best for years. The defence was wobbly but has hugely improved towards the end. Thats how you build a team....start from the basics up.

Thus.....The basics are now there to build on...and the key aspects...improving the quality of the kicking...and reducing the wasted kicks...and bringing in an attack. Felix Jones is now in place and things will come through.

England now...at the very worst...are a hard team to beat. That not a bad place to be in, baring in mind France / ireland etc are al 4/5 years down the road....

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 09 Nov 2023, 10:59 am

mountain man wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Just seen Steward's comments on the BBC. The players really have bought into the thinking that the grumbles are merely about how bad the team is rather than a combo of that and the tactics.

'"After the Fiji game we were going to the World Cup and - you could try to ignore it, but you could still hear that noise - and feel that there wasn't too much hope and optimism around," Steward said.

"The most important thing is the attitude and belief of the playing group, and not for one moment - even after the Fiji game - did we not believe we were capable of going to France and achieving what we did. And we are disappointed that we didn't go all the way.

"It's nice now and I hope we have brought a lot of people back onside, and hope they have seen what we are capable of now.'

They got to where the vast majority expected and suddenly they're turned the corner. Bit worrying to be honest.

I don't think so, the players HAVE to believe they can and will win otherwise the game(s) is lost before kick off. Also what do you really expect Steward to say, that they knew they weren't good enough? No player is going to admit that even if privately they thought it. OK getting to SF was always achievable given draw but England still had to get there and they ended up 3rd which pre RWC most players/fans would have jumped at.
Don't forget Ireland were favourites to go all way as were France.

I also think it's far easier to progress from a winning position or at least a good position which England are at, it's at least something to build on. Imagine if England had lost in QF, that was a definite possibility at the time.

I don't think all is sweetness and light with England, I was one who was very critical of tactics during RWC so they must evolve to improve and have a chance at competing for 6N but there is hope.

As long as there's honesty as to where they are as a group it doesn't overly matter what is said in front of the cameras....but I think I believe them when they're coming out with this stuff. And yes I had Ireland as a high probability of winning, just after France as I rate those 2 the best teams. It's sport though and things happen when the worse team gets through.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 09 Nov 2023, 11:01 am

Geordie wrote:
mountain man wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Just seen Steward's comments on the BBC. The players really have bought into the thinking that the grumbles are merely about how bad the team is rather than a combo of that and the tactics.

'"After the Fiji game we were going to the World Cup and - you could try to ignore it, but you could still hear that noise - and feel that there wasn't too much hope and optimism around," Steward said.

"The most important thing is the attitude and belief of the playing group, and not for one moment - even after the Fiji game - did we not believe we were capable of going to France and achieving what we did. And we are disappointed that we didn't go all the way.

"It's nice now and I hope we have brought a lot of people back onside, and hope they have seen what we are capable of now.'

They got to where the vast majority expected and suddenly they're turned the corner. Bit worrying to be honest.

I don't think so, the players HAVE to believe they can and will win otherwise the game(s) is lost before kick off. Also what do you really expect Steward to say, that they knew they weren't good enough? No player is going to admit that even if privately they thought it. OK getting to SF was always achievable given draw but England still had to get there and they ended up 3rd which pre RWC most players/fans would have jumped at.
Don't forget Ireland were favourites to go all way as were France.

I also think it's far easier to progress from a winning position or at least a good position which England are at, it's at least something to build on. Imagine if England had lost in QF, that was a definite possibility at the time.

I don't think all is sweetness and light with England, I was one who was very critical of tactics during RWC so they must evolve to improve and have a chance at competing for 6N but there is hope.
Ill say it for the last time and im not saying again as its boring...SB clearly had a plan for the World Cup. Hes improved the scrum, the lineout working and the breakdown is at its best for years. The defence was wobbly but has hugely improved towards the end. Thats how you build a team....start from the basics up.

Thus.....The basics are now there to build on...and the key aspects...improving the quality of the kicking...and reducing the wasted kicks...and bringing in an attack. Felix Jones is now in place and things will come through.

England now...at the very worst...are a hard team to beat. That not a bad place to be in, baring in mind France / ireland etc are al 4/5 years down the road....

We can all dream. If Borthwick had implemented something out of the norm for him in the WC I'd be more optimistic that he was about to implement all these improvements. As it is though he's moulding the team into Leicester, and I still can't see any sign that it will go further than that. 4th place of lower incoming in the 6Ns is my current call.

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