England still winning the RWC at a canter - The quarter finals and beyond

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Carried on..............

Langdon was good once again for Saints. He should be physical enough to make the jump. I wouldn't be surprised if he's alongside George in the matchday 23 in the Six Nations.

Yes he was good, and getting the plaudits at the moment.

But Theo will be in the squad still and Frost is playing well also.

Suddenly a few options?

I know he's just back but ahead of LCD?

Yes for the moment....but its still a while away till the 6n squad is named...2 months?

king_carlos wrote:Langdon was good once again for Saints. He should be physical enough to make the jump. I wouldn't be surprised if he's alongside George in the matchday 23 in the Six Nations.

Hendy and Seabrook also had really good game, there is definitely talent coming through in England.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I know he's just back but ahead of LCD?

He needs to prove he can play again first. Rumours are he didn't show for that medical at Montpellier as he knew they wouldn't sign him because of the neck injuries. Sale then picked him up at an absolute steal apparently as he wasn't getting offers elsewhere. Clearly he passed the medical with Sale so hopefully he can string some games together. At his peak in '20/21 when he started for the Lions he was genuinely world class.

Van Graan says Barbeary's knee isn't as bad as feared, and he could even be available for Friday. Sonds a bit like they might prefer not to rush him back, though.

Tom Curry needing a hip op which may keep him out until Christmas. Investigating if its a much bigger issue apparently.

Geordie wrote:Tom Curry needing a hip op which may keep him out until Christmas. Investigating if its a much bigger issue apparently.

Bit of a loss for Sale but not the biggest with his brother and Dugdale both on the books as well.

Just have to hope he's back for the Six Nations. I thought that Curry and Earl formed a really good partnership leading the line speed around the fringes during the RWC. They were seemingly being used to fly up and put pressure on one out carriers, largely did so well.

I've been impressed in spurts by Barbeary this season but do worry about his conditioning not quite being there due to the frequent layoffs. He seems to have big impacts then fade as the match goes on. With that invaluable ability to make yards after contact and his breakdown work he's a huge talent. If fit I'd have him in the squad but there is a concern in that regard for me. I'd say Pearson, another player I rate very highly, looks like being significantly better conditioned at Prem level but he fell away drastically in that warmup after a dynamic 30 minutes or so.

king_carlos wrote:Just have to hope he's back for the Six Nations. I thought that Curry and Earl formed a really good partnership leading the line speed around the fringes during the RWC. They were seemingly being used to fly up and put pressure on one out carriers, largely did so well.

I've been impressed in spurts by Barbeary this season but do worry about his conditioning not quite being there due to the frequent layoffs. He seems to have big impacts then fade as the match goes on. With that invaluable ability to make yards after contact and his breakdown work he's a huge talent. If fit I'd have him in the squad but there is a concern in that regard for me. I'd say Pearson, another player I rate very highly, looks like being significantly better conditioned at Prem level but he fell away drastically in that warmup after a dynamic 30 minutes or so.

So what you are saying is that both Barbeary and Pearson need to be in the wider squad with a view to improving their conditioning but shouldn't actually get on the pitch until they have achieved the fitness targets set for them.

king_carlos wrote:Just have to hope he's back for the Six Nations. I thought that Curry and Earl formed a really good partnership leading the line speed around the fringes during the RWC. They were seemingly being used to fly up and put pressure on one out carriers, largely did so well.

I've been impressed in spurts by Barbeary this season but do worry about his conditioning not quite being there due to the frequent layoffs. He seems to have big impacts then fade as the match goes on. With that invaluable ability to make yards after contact and his breakdown work he's a huge talent. If fit I'd have him in the squad but there is a concern in that regard for me. I'd say Pearson, another player I rate very highly, looks like being significantly better conditioned at Prem level but he fell away drastically in that warmup after a dynamic 30 minutes or so.

Ben Earl has publicly stated he thought he was fit, but the work he did in camp made him realise he really wasnt fit for this level....and why his performances have become what they have.

i would genuinely hope that any young lads like Willis or Pearson or to be fair...ANYONE wanting to make the England team and squad, take it on themselves to realise how fit they need to be....

SB has always made high fitness a basic for his teams...again he did it with Tigers...so no surprise hes demanding it here also.

It also gives the coaches a chance to see if conditioning is the issue or it can be solved by something like being more tactically astute. I've heard cases before of forwards who struggled with the pace at international level initially but it was in large part because they were just competing too many rucks rather than lacking conditioning. International teams are incomparably better at ruck retention so you can just be banging your head against a brick wall, wasting your energy. Whereas competing hard at Prem level gets regular turnovers for talented jackals as support play is far worse on average.

Likewise some big ball carriers can struggle as they carry at the wrong time and in the wrong areas. They aim for volume, carrying as much as possible but if you're just looking for a one out carry from a ruck to get a better exit angle then you're much better off letting someone like Marler or Cole do it, save the more explosive carriers for the right areas and opportunities. Wiese was liable for that early in his international career. As he got more intelligent with where he used his talents he had bigger impacts. I think the Ireland forwards under Farrell are brilliant at saving the key carriers for the key moments too.

To my eye watching 2-3 Prem matches a weekend (with decreasing engagement currently if I'm honest) it looks like conditioning might be the issue but it could be something different.

It's why I like coaches looking at a lot of players in extended squads. It's something Jones got flack for with lots looked at but "not trusted". Having players train with the senior squad early and see the standards I have no issue with. The way he nibbled around the corners of many players in terms of matchday selection but didn't seem to commit to that many longer term after 2019 I liked far less. I thought the Henry, Hansen and Smith era NZ coaching team was brilliant at giving players that early exposure to standards in training though.

king_carlos wrote:It also gives the coaches a chance to see if conditioning is the issue or it can be solved by something like being more tactically astute. I've heard cases before of forwards who struggled with the pace at international level initially but it was in large part because they were just competing too many rucks rather than lacking conditioning. International teams are incomparably better at ruck retention so you can just be banging your head against a brick wall, wasting your energy. Whereas competing hard at Prem level gets regular turnovers for talented jackals as support play is far worse on average.

Likewise some big ball carriers can struggle as they carry at the wrong time and in the wrong areas. They aim for volume, carrying as much as possible but if you're just looking for a one out carry from a ruck to get a better exit angle then you're much better off letting someone like Marler or Cole do it, save the more explosive carriers for the right areas and opportunities. Wiese was liable for that early in his international career. As he got more intelligent with where he used his talents he had bigger impacts. I think the Ireland forwards under Farrell are brilliant at saving the key carriers for the key moments too.

To my eye watching 2-3 Prem matches a weekend (with decreasing engagement currently if I'm honest) it looks like conditioning might be the issue but it could be something different.

It's why I like coaches looking at a lot of players in extended squads. It's something Jones got flack for with lots looked at but "not trusted". Having players train with the senior squad early and see the standards I have no issue with. The way he nibbled around the corners of many players in terms of matchday selection but didn't seem to commit to that many longer term after 2019 I liked far less. I thought the Henry, Hansen and Smith era NZ coaching team was brilliant at giving players that early exposure to standards in training though.

Isnt this exactly what Baxter was alluding to..and name dropped Painter. Ie Get the players doing their own job...he doesnt want his props out playmaking in the midfield...ie South Africa and france dont.

PS yove got 4 games televised this weekend

Courtney Lawes is on the Good, Bad & Rugby podcast this week. Of all his coaches, he said Eddie Jones got the best out of him. When Jones first took over, he told Lawes there was no England place for him if he didn't carry more.

Lawes said footwork and carrying had been part of his game at the start of his career but he'd settled into a comfort zone, where defence had been his main selling point. Lawes thinks the boot up the backside from Jones changed his mindset. Instead of just doing enough to get picked for England, he started to think about how to be the best player he could be.

That got him on the 2017 Lions tour, and he subsequently became Gatland's bonus pick in 2021, where he was one of the best performers. Lawes said if he has any career regrets, it's that he didn't really appreciate what he needed to do until Jones turned up.

You'd hope the need to always look for improvement is a message younger players take on board. Arguably, that was one of the key failures of Jones' tenure after the 2019 World Cup. Most players in that England squad were still available for selection in 2023 but very few had kicked on over four years. Probably only Lawes, Genge and Ludlam in the forwards.

As Geordie mentions above, Earl realized he didn't have the fitness to play the role Borthwick wanted, so he worked on it. If the Premiership isn't providing the kind of challenge it has in the past, then we'll need players prepared to set their own standards.

I see Johnny May is banned for headbut clearout on Lawrence...and Lawrence now has a broken nose. How long are you out for that?

Oooh trouble in the ranks

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-12755089/Steve-Borthwicks-coaching-reshuffle-sparks-doubts-England-futures-Richard-Wigglesworth-Kevin-Sinfield-Felix-Jones-set-join-January-helping-South-Africa-win-World-Cup.html

"It had been widely assumed that Jones would replace Kevin Sinfield as defence guru, but his attack credentials are understood to have left Wigglesworth unsure of whether the scope of his job could be altered.

One source claimed that the ex-Sale, Saracens and Leicester scrum-half had argued that anyone would struggle to set up an effective attack within the parameters of Borthwick’s rigid system."

And

The impending arrival of Felix Jones – fresh from his second global success with the Springboks – is thought to be causing confusion and doubt about demarcation lines between coaches, as his role has not been defined.

The former Munster full-back had a broad remit with South Africa and after their triumph in Paris, Wille le Roux said: ‘He helps us with our attack, our strike moves, the backs... I think the Springboks are really going to miss him.’

Geordie wrote:Oooh trouble in the ranks

I think the Mail story is a bit backwards. Leicester is one of the best club jobs in England. If there's one man who knows that only too well, it's Borthwick, who gave up his England role for it, at a similar point in the World Cup cycle four years ago.

It's also an increasingly rare opportunity, with three Premiership clubs having gone bankrupt since then.

Would be fantastic news to get rid of Wigglesworth.

Geordie wrote:I see Johnny May is banned for headbut clearout on Lawrence...and Lawrence now has a broken nose. How long are you out for that?

Lawrence played on in the game I believe!

I'd take Wigglewsorth back at Tigers on the basis of the season so far. McKellar comes with a cracking reputation but it's been dire. The defensive alignment against Harlequins was the sort of s**t I expected to see in the new PRC when Championship clubs played Prem ones. Except it was a home league game with two capped centres looking like they'd never met. Embarrassing stuff.

From everything I'd heard and read when Jones was initially announced it sounded like he was going to be attack coach with Wigglesworth then sliding back into a skills role with the SHs, kicking, etc. I thought Wigglesworth's job title was actually "kicking strategy coach" or something weird like that. Then he was also covering attack until Jones joined.

Once rumours of Sinfield moving on came out there was then discussion of Jones taking on defence.

Regardless of the route to it the setup needs more experience in the assistants. Jones is a terrific coup whether as attack, defence or a mix of both. I'd be delighted with Gustard returning too but that has gone quiet since the swiftly deleted Torygraph article.

As said a few times I felt that Borthwick's leaning so heavily on coaches he'd previously worked with was a weakness. Missing out on Ian Peel who's an experienced and very well regarded forwards coach as well as scrum coach felt like a big miss for that reason. Harrison is rated as a scrum coach but that will be most of his remit at international level considering his relative experience.

I still think that Joe Shaw or Kevin Sorrell at Sarries would've been excellent options as an attack or backs coach. Jones is one of the highest regarded coaches around though so he's definitely a coup.

king_carlos wrote:

Geordie wrote:I see Johnny May is banned for headbut clearout on Lawrence...and Lawrence now has a broken nose. How long are you out for that?

Lawrence played on in the game I believe!

Yeah hes in the team for tomorrow night.

So Joe Marler has retired form International....the commentator has just said on the Bath v Bristol build up...

king_carlos wrote:I'd take Wigglewsorth back at Tigers on the basis of the season so far. McKellar comes with a cracking reputation but it's been dire. The defensive alignment against Harlequins was the sort of s**t I expected to see in the new PRC when Championship clubs played Prem ones. Except it was a home league game with two capped centres looking like they'd never met. Embarrassing stuff.

From everything I'd heard and read when Jones was initially announced it sounded like he was going to be attack coach with Wigglesworth then sliding back into a skills role with the SHs, kicking, etc. I thought Wigglesworth's job title was actually "kicking strategy coach" or something weird like that. Then he was also covering attack until Jones joined.

Once rumours of Sinfield moving on came out there was then discussion of Jones taking on defence.

Regardless of the route to it the setup needs more experience in the assistants. Jones is a terrific coup whether as attack, defence or a mix of both. I'd be delighted with Gustard returning too but that has gone quiet since the swiftly deleted Torygraph article.

As said a few times I felt that Borthwick's leaning so heavily on coaches he'd previously worked with was a weakness. Missing out on Ian Peel who's an experienced and very well regarded forwards coach as well as scrum coach felt like a big miss for that reason. Harrison is rated as a scrum coach but that will be most of his remit at international level considering his relative experience.

I still think that Joe Shaw or Kevin Sorrell at Sarries would've been excellent options as an attack or backs coach. Jones is one of the highest regarded coaches around though so he's definitely a coup.

Wigglesworth only looked good as a head coach once Wilson came in as coach and helped organise a lot of the moves around the set piece. I'd rather keep with McKellar quite frankly. Particularly as there's rumours the attack coach has already left the building and that Everard the defence coach is doing double duty. If Sinfield were available if take him back in a heart beat in his old role.

The rumours around Sinfield seemed to stem from Jones overseeing the Boks defence though I've heard his role as being broader than that doing bits on attack as well.

Agree on Shaw and Sorrell. Sarries have a good stable of young EQ coaches, it's a shame none could be tempted to join the team. Sam Vesty would have been the ideal though I'm not sure if his philosophy would have gelled with Borthwick's.

I suspect that Borthwick wants no changes to the coaching team bar Jones joining but whether that comes to pass we'll see.

Didn't see the game but judging by the reports its who partners Lawrence in the centre for the 6n...

The positive thing is there's loads of youngsters putting their hand up for the England A set up...

Geordie wrote:Didn't see the game but judging by the reports its who partners Lawrence in the centre for the 6n...

The positive thing is there's loads of youngsters putting their hand up for the England A set up...

Lawrence had a very good game. He’s certainly playing himself into contention.

Poorfour wrote:

Geordie wrote:Didn't see the game but judging by the reports its who partners Lawrence in the centre for the 6n...

The positive thing is there's loads of youngsters putting their hand up for the England A set up...

Lawrence had a very good game. He’s certainly playing himself into contention.

At 13 rather than 12.

So who do we partner him with at 12?

Tuilagi presumably.

Was there any doubt over Lawrence? Regardless of who else is available he is surely in squad for Eng and seeing as there appears to be a distinct lack of centres available or pickable makes his case even stronger.

What about going club ombo
12 Ojomoh
13 Lawrence

mountain man wrote:Was there any doubt over Lawrence? Regardless of who else is available he is surely in squad for Eng and seeing as there appears to be a distinct lack of centres available or pickable makes his case even stronger.

If Tuilagi recovers from his broken hand in time, then all the centres Borthwick named to his World Cup squad will be available.

Elliot Daly is an interesting bellweather for selection policy across the team. Borthwick came to trust him as much as Jones did for most of his tenure, and saw him as a better centre option, in the context of that squad, than Henry Slade. He's 31, so the next World Cup might be a stretch, though not impossible.

Marchant won't be available unless something has changed.

mountain man wrote:Marchant won't be available unless something has changed.

Good point.

Manu and Slade are both options at 12 and 13 though you'd hope we'd have moved away from that. Perhaps one but certainly not both.

At 12 Seb Atkinson is the obvious choice to come into the squad. He's a classy player and consistent. Ojomoh has started well this season but is struggling to oust Redpath from the side. Kelly is another option but hasn't shown his best form yet.

Tommy Freeman is in excellent form and has been playing 13. His ability to also play wing and fullback makes him a potentially very useful player to bring in and he's looked solid for England previously. A potential successor to Daly in that regard.

Telegraph says Saracens can't keep everyone under the salary cap, so they need Maro Itoje to take a 50% pay cut. Saracens have already designated Owen Farrell as a marquee player. That could see him looking overseas.

It's possible the leak of this news is an attempt to get Itoje on the board for one of the RFU hybrid contracts, which is a plan expected to be unveiled next month. He would definitely be one of the 20 core players.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2023/11/18/maro-itoje-future-england-saracens-pay-cut-france/

Maro Itoje’s England and Saracens future has been plunged into doubt after it emerged the lock has been asked to take a 50 per cent pay cut by the north London club.

Saracens fear the British and Irish Lions forward could be poised to leave them and, indeed, the Premiership, with Itoje, 29, one of the league’s highest-earning players on a reported £800,000 a year, said to be unhappy at having to accept such a huge reduction and contemplating his next move.

Changes to the salary cap mean Saracens have been forced to choose between the forward and Owen Farrell for “marquee” deals and that their preference is for the England fly-half to receive one.

It could mean Itoje following his fellow England international Henry Arundell to France, with several Top 14 sides watching the situation. The Rugby Football Union’s regulations currently rule out picking players who play their trade outside the Premiership.

Itoje started Saracens’ 38-10 victory over Harlequins on Saturday night but is facing a huge career dilemma with his contract due to expire at the end of the season. Farrell’s current deal also finishes then but while any new contract would allow the England captain to be paid outside the salary cap as a “marquee” player, Itoje’s wages will have to fit within the spending limit that applies across the top division.

Mark McCall, Saracens’ director of rugby, said after the game at The Stoop: “We are never going to talk about someone’s contract.”

They're going to have to bite the bullet sooner or later and relax the player rule for playing outside the league.

Earl is out 'for a while with a knee injury according to McCall.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Earl is out 'for a while with a knee injury according to McCall.

That's not good especially with Curry out also.

But then it opens the door to trial Pearson or Tom Willis...

Possibly. Vunipola and Ludlam are likely to start so flanker and bench option pretty wide open.

Vunipola won't start...he won't be in the squad.
Ludlum clearly not rated as a starter...

You don't think?suspect if he gets the run of games between now and the 6 nations to prove his fitness he'll start. Clearly at the moment he's ahead of Willis at Saracens. Ludlam was the one who went to the wc so again the coaches must like him. I would mind us leap frogging some people though.

Nah xant see Billy. He was clearly selected to provide what he used to and SB realised he cant do rhat anymore and his performance kn the SF will have been the nail in the coffin.

Think he sees Ludlum as a squad member...but not starter.

3 months to go but if Curry and Earl are out and now hearing maybe Pearson also...there will be changes.

Surely even Borthwick will have by now realised Billys time has been and (long) gone. If he continues to pick players like him and not start a rebuild bringing in younger, hungrier(rugby wise) players then England are doomed. We might get some shortish term pain during a rebuiild but give it a year or two then hopefully see real progress. Similar to what France went through around 4 years ago.

I rate Ludlum and quite how he was omitted for Billy only SB knows. I also think he's good enough to start.

Freeman was mentioned earlier, dunno. Seems a decent club player but I'm not convinced he's Int quality.

Billy just about made the bench at the world cup and disappointed when he came on. Borthwick changed his tactics to move to Earl at 8. I'd assume that Billy will struggle to make the squad and certainly won't start. Not sure Ludlam is nailed on to start either.

I can't see them changing the playing over seas rule. It will decimate the Premiership, particularly because the French sides will actively target younger players so they can be JEFF whilst still being eligible to play for England if they want.

Freeman is built only a bit smaller than Steward, is quick and a good finisher. Reliable under the high ball, can kick and pass to a decent level and is a standout for Saints at 13 currently. He's proved adept at wing and fullback previously. Could make. Very good 23 option.

Don't forget Ben Curry is playing well, and he was in SB's squad before injury. I'd like to see a potential back row of Ludlam, B Curry/Pearson, Tom Willis.

If Billy's near the squad I will despair...

Vunipola is bound to start. You know it in your heart.

Nah he wont

Know you prefer his understudy but Borthwock likes Billy.

Or Borthwick wanted to see what Billy can offer and realised he's not that Billy anymore

Mr Bounce wrote:Don't forget Ben Curry is playing well, and he was in SB's squad before injury. I'd like to see a potential back row of Ludlam, B Curry/Pearson, Tom Willis.

If Billy's near the squad I will despair...

Me Too.  Don't want him near the squad either.  He could eat anything he gets close to.....

Besides, he is yesterday's news and the time to turn the page was a while ago.