2nd RWC 2023 semi-final England v South Africa

First topic message reminder :

Having just watched that awesome match with France and seeing the SA players, with family, parade around the ground I can't help feeling that our main hope of not being thrashed lies in their complacency. They will go in as massive favourites and rightly so. England will be fighting for their very lives to avoid humiliation and this often brings out the best in teams. I don't think it will be enough, but it might help keep the score to below 45.

Realistically do we have a prayer?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/6155870.stm

It's sport so anything could happen. Biggest mistake Borthwick has made is not selecting Vickery though.

No 7&1/2 wrote:http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/6155870.stm

It's sport so anything could happen. Biggest mistake Borthwick has made is not selecting Vickery though.

In the form of his life too.

TAFKA The Oracle wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/6155870.stm

It's sport so anything could happen. Biggest mistake Borthwick has made is not selecting Vickery though.

In the form of his life too.

Heard a rumour he is considering retirement after Borthwick's world cup snub.

Hope it's not true

mountain man wrote:If anyone interested, Red Roses playing Australia this morning kick off 0700 live on ITVx.

It's a match we can be hopeful of an England win...

I was, although for some reason itvX would only show it on my tablet and phone, and not on my smart tv. Licensing issue, I presume, but it was pretty poor for the premier annual women's rugby competition only to be available on a tiny screen.

Still, a comfortble win for England but I think they will need to tighten up on the error and penalty count before they meet the Black Ferns. Australia were pretty competitive in most areas, but were let down by their maul defence, their accuracy near either goal line and their no 5 getting two yellow cards for dumb upright tackles that led to head contact.

I was able to watch on my smart tv.
England dominant as expected but need to see more from backs as that is where Black Ferns have edge I'd say.

Doesn't look like women rugby using bunker system, think they should as I think it's good idea.

https://www.world.rugby/match/12128

I was thinking about players at this RWC who had been teammates forever and for some reason the image of Codie Taylor throwing lineout after lineout to Brodie Retallick at U20s popped into my head. So I looked up those old teams from the 2011 U20s final.

Ford, Farrell and Daly all at this RWC for England. Thomas is here too but with Wales now.

Taylor, Retallick, Cane and Beaudy all here for NZ. Luatua and Sopoaga for Samoa. Piutau and Tameifuna for Tonga. Anscombe for Wales.

A couple of attempted NFL converts in Alex Gray and Christian Wade. Gray was probably the highest rated of that England side at that point in time. As things worked out he's one of the players in that 22 who made the least impact on senior rugby. It's funny how these things workout.

I know it's just more games but can't help missing the B internationals. They provided a solid stepping stone for players and for coaches between club and international rugby.

king_carlos wrote:https://www.world.rugby/match/12128

I was thinking about players at this RWC who had been teammates forever and for some reason the image of Codie Taylor throwing lineout after lineout to Brodie Retallick at U20s popped into my head. So I looked up those old teams from the 2011 U20s final.

Ford, Farrell and Daly all at this RWC for England. Thomas is here too but with Wales now.

Taylor, Retallick, Cane and Beaudy all here for NZ. Luatua and Sopoaga for Samoa. Piutau and Tameifuna for Tonga. Anscombe for Wales.

A couple of attempted NFL converts in Alex Gray and Christian Wade. Gray was probably the highest rated of that England side at that point in time. As things worked out he's one of the players in that 22 who made the least impact on senior rugby. It's funny how these things workout.

In an alternate universe we'd be wondering when Wade was going to beat Rory Underwood's try record, although there would always have been doubts over his defense.

At the start of his video, Squidge says this South African starting XV has the most combined caps of any team to take the field in international rugby.

He also says the last time South Africa set the same record, was when they sent out a team to meet Japan at the 2015 World Cup

That was a weird video from Squidge. Was more about England than South Africa.

Old Man wrote:That was a weird video from Squidge. Was more about England than South Africa.

The SA vs France preview went into detail on the Boks. It's a good watch. Whereas they didn't preview the make a wish foundation QFs so hadn't done anything in depth on England.

World Rugby deciding to prevent any use of footage from the tournament has prevented Squidge and others doing the sort of analysis they usually do. Which is frustrating.

Yes the limits on using video footage is anal

lostinwales wrote:I know it's just more games but can't help missing the B internationals. They provided a solid stepping stone for players and for coaches between club and international rugby.

Agree with this. Doubtless a critical aspect of player development missed. Made the Premiership better as well.

Old Man wrote:Yes the limits on using video footage is anal

Agree with this, though I don't care for Squidge much. To me, a obvious Rugby fan, but also a dude who is good with video editing. Inciteful? Maybe. But good vids.

Ben Earl is saying that England have a plan which plays to their strengths, I hope that it is a very cunning plan but a bit better than the perpetrator of the phrase managed to make.

That's only hope England have though, if they play to their many weaknesses we're doomed!

Mr Radwan scored another beauty last night....and people go on about Arundels "highlights reel"...

Ugo Monye has seven tips for England. Thanks, Ugo.

Stay in the game
Get the fundamentals right
Keep up scoreboard pressure
Use the bench wisely
Win the aerial battle
Get the referee on your side
Make fitness count

He probably didn't suggest "Score more points" in case people started calling him Captain Obvious.

https://archive.is/hZpWz#selection-1357.0-1408.0

Geordie wrote:Mr Radwan scored another beauty last night....and people go on about Arundels "highlights reel"...

Would love to see a real injection of pace in the backline.

Rugby Fan wrote:Ugo Monye has seven tips for England. Thanks, Ugo.

Stay in the game
Get the fundamentals right
Keep up scoreboard pressure
Use the bench wisely
Win the aerial battle
Get the referee on your side
Make fitness count

He probably didn't suggest "Score more points" in case people started calling him Captain Obvious.

https://archive.is/hZpWz#selection-1357.0-1408.0

Think the scoreboard pressure is going to be all on england. Can see SA being 3 tries up quite early and then it will be forget the drop goals and attempt to get close enough to maul.

Rugby Fan wrote:Ugo Monye has seven tips for England. Thanks, Ugo.

Stay in the game
Get the fundamentals right
Keep up scoreboard pressure
Use the bench wisely
Win the aerial battle
Get the referee on your side
Make fitness count

He probably didn't suggest "Score more points" in case people started calling him Captain Obvious.

https://archive.is/hZpWz#selection-1357.0-1408.0

Whoa, never would have thought staying in the game was important. Brilliant.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Geordie wrote:Mr Radwan scored another beauty last night....and people go on about Arundels "highlights reel"...

Would love to see a real injection of pace in the backline.

Not in today's 23, excepting, maybe Earl and Mitchell.

Jason Robinson is retired.  
Phil Vickery said the team is too slow and confused to play to his obvious strengths.

To win, England have to go bloody mad for the first quarter of the game. Get 10/14 points ahead early, put SA under scoreboard pressure and try to use that to induce mistakes. If England can't get ahead early, they're not winning. It's like that autumn game from a couple of years ago - England got 14-3 ahead in the first quarter and went on to win (barely).

And they have to concede fewer penalties than SA, that's non-negotiable.

Referee: Ben O’Keeffe (New Zealand)
Assistant referee 1: Mathieu Raynal (France)
Assistant referee 2: Paul Williams (New Zealand)
TMO: Brendon Pickerill (New Zealand)

Andrew Brace has pulled out injured, and Mathieu Raynal is taking over on the touchline. Rugby Pass lists him as "Assistant referee 1", which presumably means he takes over if something happens to O'Keefe.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Geordie wrote:Mr Radwan scored another beauty last night....and people go on about Arundels "highlights reel"...

Would love to see a real injection of pace in the backline.

I know I've backed SB so far and I still do...but I am certainly expecting things to change post World Cup..and with a new attack Coach coming in.

People rave about Kolbe and the other winger and the little Italian lad...but we have our own versions of them.

I want to see SB start to build a nice mix of power, pace and skill.

A death threat in Rugby, to Cobus Reinach, reported in today's Guardian.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/video/2023/oct/20/south-africa-condemn-death-threat-sent-to-scrum-half-cobus-reinach-video

Without getting too deep into how the world is accelerating toward total chaos (most polite term I can come up with), a death threat to anyone is repugnant. And to a sportsman simply for representing his country, words elude me. But totally unacceptable woefully understates it.

We're all behind you South Africa. You've got this

doctor_grey wrote:A death threat in Rugby, to Cobus Reinach, reported in today's Guardian.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/video/2023/oct/20/south-africa-condemn-death-threat-sent-to-scrum-half-cobus-reinach-video

Without getting too deep into how the world is accelerating toward total chaos (most polite term I can come up with), a death threat to anyone is repugnant.  And to a sportsman simply for representing his country, words elude me.  But totally unacceptable woefully understates it.  

The world is getting better, though total morons have a greater avenue than ever before to do this and other types of abuse, unfortunately.

Not sure what the solution is, however.

Jimmy Moz wrote:We're all behind you South Africa. You've got this

No we're not. England for me thanks.

Duty281 wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:A death threat in Rugby, to Cobus Reinach, reported in today's Guardian.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/video/2023/oct/20/south-africa-condemn-death-threat-sent-to-scrum-half-cobus-reinach-video

Without getting too deep into how the world is accelerating toward total chaos (most polite term I can come up with), a death threat to anyone is repugnant.  And to a sportsman simply for representing his country, words elude me.  But totally unacceptable woefully understates it.  

The world is getting better, though total morons have a greater avenue than ever before to do this and other types of abuse, unfortunately.

Not sure what the solution is, however.

I actually disagree....I think the world is getting worse. I honestly think that.

Geordie wrote:Mr Radwan scored another beauty last night....and people go on about Arundels "highlights reel"...

Yeah well you and me both been banging that drum for a while but if Borthwick doesn't pick Arundell and he's in squad, what chances are he'll pick Radwan for 6N etc. I'm not holding breath.

Ah i don't think Radwan will be in an England sqaud again (i really hope im wrong)....however..I don't think that's because Borthwick doesn't want attacking talent.

I do believe Arundel will be used post World Cup..and we'll see some more young talent being brought through at the right time. .ie when they're ready.

Geordie wrote:

Jimmy Moz wrote:We're all behind you South Africa. You've got this

No we're not. England for me thanks.

To be honest, I am not a fan of SA rugby by any means. And had it been any other team they were playing I would be cheering on the opposition. I am quite gutted my second team France are not playing in this game more than anything.

Jimmy Moz wrote:We're all behind you South Africa. You've got this

I guess we can't all beat Argentina

Daly and May are not going to make the next RWC. Borthwick is likely to make changes for the 6N as he starts to rebuild, especially if he ends the RWC in a fairly secure position.

I'd expect Arundell to get more of a chance, and Murley to come into the squad ahead of Radwan (assuming he's fit). Murley doesn't have as many tries from nothing in his highlights real, but International defences genrally don't allow for many of those. What he does have is a low error count and the best finishing efficiency of any EQ winger, both inside and outside the 22.

lostinwales wrote:

Jimmy Moz wrote:We're all behind you South Africa. You've got this

I guess we can't all beat Argentina

Well Wales certainly couldn't. Not sure what this has to do with England v South Africa though.

Jimmy Moz wrote:

Geordie wrote:

Jimmy Moz wrote:We're all behind you South Africa. You've got this

No we're not. England for me thanks.

To be honest, I am not a fan of SA rugby by any means. And had it been any other team they were playing I would be cheering on the opposition. I am quite gutted my second team France are not playing in this game more than anything.

Perhaps I'm misreading this but it seems you cheer on whoever is playing England? Which is fine as is your right, I was just wondering.

mountain man wrote:

Jimmy Moz wrote:

Geordie wrote:

Jimmy Moz wrote:We're all behind you South Africa. You've got this

No we're not. England for me thanks.

To be honest, I am not a fan of SA rugby by any means. And had it been any other team they were playing I would be cheering on the opposition. I am quite gutted my second team France are not playing in this game more than anything.

Perhaps I'm misreading this but it seems you cheer on whoever is playing England? Which is fine as is your right, I was just wondering.

Nah, to be honest if this was a group match or maybe an Autumn International I'd probably just be a neutral. I guess just as a UK resident I fear England winning it and we're all subjected to another 20 years of Jonny's drop goal on repeat in every RWC game going. Only this time it will be Farrell

Jimmy Moz wrote:

mountain man wrote:

Jimmy Moz wrote:

Geordie wrote:

Jimmy Moz wrote:We're all behind you South Africa. You've got this

No we're not. England for me thanks.

To be honest, I am not a fan of SA rugby by any means. And had it been any other team they were playing I would be cheering on the opposition. I am quite gutted my second team France are not playing in this game more than anything.

Perhaps I'm misreading this but it seems you cheer on whoever is playing England? Which is fine as is your right, I was just wondering.

Nah, to be honest if this was a group match or maybe an Autumn International I'd probably just be a neutral. I guess just as a UK resident I fear England winning it and we're all subjected to another 20 years of Jonny's drop goal on repeat in every RWC game going. Only this time it will be Farrell

 

Fantastic.

Of all things one of my best mates who is English wants South Africa to win.

I think it's a bit strange to be honest but he is up from north and describes England rugby union as "Posh boys outing which represents me in no way at all".

Like I say, a bit weird to me but he knows more than me I guess on northern views on life.

Jimmy Moz wrote:Of all things one of my best mates who is English wants South Africa to win.

I think it's a bit strange to be honest but he is up from north and describes England rugby union as "Posh boys outing which represents me in no way at all".

Like I say, a bit weird to me but he knows more than me I guess on northern views on life.

You get this attitude a lot in Ireland too. Whenever the Ireland side loses a RWC QF or any big game, there is a section of the population that really revel in it. So odd.

The old chestnut of "posh boys"? Isn't that a bit 1970s now? Are likes of Farrell, Genge, Sinckler, Marler etc really viewed that way?

Collapse2005 wrote:

Jimmy Moz wrote:Of all things one of my best mates who is English wants South Africa to win.

I think it's a bit strange to be honest but he is up from north and describes England rugby union as "Posh boys outing which represents me in no way at all".

Like I say, a bit weird to me but he knows more than me I guess on northern views on life.

You get this attitude a lot in Ireland too. Whenever the Ireland side loses a RWC QF or any big game, there is a section of the population that really revel in it. So odd.

Often British media and some of the general public love to build them up and knock 'em down. Certainly England in certain sports such as football and cricket. I can't imagine it's like this in other countries but maybe it is.

The media has been very kind to Borthwick so far. Granted because most of them had him as their pick.

Collapse2005 wrote:

Jimmy Moz wrote:Of all things one of my best mates who is English wants South Africa to win.

I think it's a bit strange to be honest but he is up from north and describes England rugby union as "Posh boys outing which represents me in no way at all".

Like I say, a bit weird to me but he knows more than me I guess on northern views on life.

You get this attitude a lot in Ireland too. Whenever the Ireland side loses a RWC QF or any big game, there is a section of the population that really revel in it. So odd.

Is this a gaelic football vs rugby union thing? Similar to some of the more daft fans of league and union opposing the other code, partly because some people are just weird like that and partly because of the cultural baggage that comes with each code.

No 7&1/2 wrote:The media has been very kind to Borthwick so far. Granted because most of them had him as their pick.

They haven't been outright hostile but they have had several bones to pick with Borthwick, so it's not accurate to say they have been kind.

Rugby Fan wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:The media has been very kind to Borthwick so far. Granted because most of them had him as their pick.

They haven't been outright hostile but they have had several bones to pick with Borthwick, so it's not accurate to say they have been kind.

I still think it's kindness to outright not go for him given his run so far!even someone like Woodeard who has been critical of selections hasn't gone after him as he did with Jones. Perhaps the nearest we've got is its asking if he was OK on the run up to the WC. We'll see what the papers etc say tomorrow as I do think we're getting another France like pasting. A few will say he then needs to produce in the 6ns.

Well in fairness England although not playing well are only unbeaten side so far. Yes the opposition not strongest but the old cliche still applies. If SA demolish them tonight maybe tune will change but so far can't really blame media for being supportive.

Poorfour wrote:Daly and May are not going to make the next RWC. Borthwick is likely to make changes for the 6N as he starts to rebuild, especially if he ends the RWC in a fairly secure position.

I'd expect Arundell to get more of a chance, and Murley to come into the squad ahead of Radwan (assuming he's fit). Murley doesn't have as many tries from nothing in his highlights real, but International defences genrally don't allow for many of those. What he does have is a low error count and the best finishing efficiency of any EQ winger, both inside and outside the 22.

Not sure I totally agree with that. Kolbe, the other SA winger, pernaud,  The little Italian fella all do alright.

I rate Murley highly and he must be in the squad but there's definitely a place for someone like Radwan. Arundel is clearly one the coaches see as rhe future aswell.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-12655727/amp/South-Africas-secret-weapon-rugby-physio.html

Always wondered who she was… Been in the job a long time. It’s a shame that I don’t live in South Africa. Good luck!