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England's Winter of Cricket 2023/24

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Post by king_carlos Sat 17 Feb 2024, 3:22 pm

First topic message reminder :

I haven't seen a ball from today. Not sure I want to seeing the scorecard.

I woke up early for work, checked the score, saw the collapse, felt sad. Then didn't look again until after close.

It all looked so promising for a moment.

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Post by GSC Sat 24 Feb 2024, 10:37 am

The true lottery is which spinner is gonna turn up for England. Bashirs day so far
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Post by JuliusHMarx Sat 24 Feb 2024, 10:45 am

Useful runs from this pair as they move closer to that total of 600.

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Post by KP_fan Sat 24 Feb 2024, 11:08 am

A semblance of fight back in last 1 hour. Partnership nearing 50 and most importantly neither batter has looked troubled or given a chance.
Surprising that the pitch during this partnership has gone to sleep again
They need to get India's.deficit to below 100 first....and then we will see what happens next

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Post by GSC Sat 24 Feb 2024, 11:11 am

Excellent day for England, probably the first time they've been firmly ahead at the mid point of a test in this series. Closer India can get to a one innings shootout, the more pressure it puts on this batting lineup though
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Post by Duty281 Sat 24 Feb 2024, 11:19 am

Yeah, it's looking like England are going to get a first innings lead for the first time in the series.

I thought it would be difficult to bat on around day 3/4, but it became a minefield today, which is fantastic for England. Plenty shooting low, the odd one exploding off a length. Tough day for the bats. Tough day for Foakes. This was actually the pitch where England could have been justified in picking three spinners.

Not really any batting to come for India, so it's down to these two to chip away as much as they can from this England lead. If they squeeze out another 50/60 runs, they'll have done fantastically, but even that shouldn't be enough for India. 60 runs will still leave them 74 down. They don't want to be chasing anymore than 200 on this batting last, and that's going to require a superhuman effort to skittle England for around 100/120 in the third innings.

Mind you, even chasing 200 on this, late day three/day four, is going to be bloody difficult.

Also worth adding that England got three 'umpire's call' dismissals go their way today, which I think was some deserved fortune, based on previous games where Stokes hasn't been a lucky general.

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Post by VTR Sat 24 Feb 2024, 11:36 am

GSC wrote:Excellent day for England, probably the first time they've been firmly ahead at the mid point of a test in this series. Closer India can get to a one innings shootout, the more pressure it puts on this batting lineup though

And the two young spinners who will likely be tasked with defending a total that ordinarily would be on the low side

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Post by Duty281 Sat 24 Feb 2024, 1:09 pm

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/68390262

Leach to have surgery, so he might miss some of the summer. Bashir and Hartley in a close contest for the place if that does happen.

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Post by JuliusHMarx Sat 24 Feb 2024, 6:53 pm

Root interview - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/68391344

"'Bazball' is a media frenzy that is for them," said the 33-year-old. "I think there's a common misconception about how we go about things." - I see that on here as well at times.

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Post by king_carlos Sat 24 Feb 2024, 7:49 pm

Finally caught up with everything. Obviously very happy as an England fan.

Bashir really did bowl excellently. There's a lot to like in him. Especially the way he varies his pace so well whilst remaining accurate. I felt that was a key for him in getting the most out of the inconsistent bounce.

I thought Hartley bowled a more mature spell alongside him too. He wasn't having the same joy but bowled tighter. In many other innings he has seemed to bowl a boundary ball most overs. That was much better today I thought.

A frustrating little partnership at the end from Jurel and Kuldeep. They looked comfortable but the England spinners were clearly tired by that point. Understandably given the workload and their relative inexperience. I'd hope that a refreshed attack and better light allowing the seamers to bowl will help them to clean up these last 3 wickets fairly swiftly tomorrow. From there it's a case of how many more runs on the board and how much wear on the pitch England can add before they bowl again. Ideally the bowlers will have their feet up until D4. You never know with England's enduring capacity for a collapse.

Whilst it was England's day, god Jaiswal is a talent. His straight drives are absolutely marvellous. That's the stroke of a very fine player. Reminiscent of Kohli at his best. It took a ball practically rolling along the ground to prise him out.

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Post by KP_fan Sat 24 Feb 2024, 8:09 pm

The enormity of Ind's challenge is so big that had they taken a 50 to 70 run lead, I would have considered Eng still ahead, given the 4th inning batting.

Now we'd be happy if Indian deficit ends up 50 to 70.
From worried like hell going into 2nd test to thinking series over at the end of crushing win in T3....to now harboring thoughts of losing the series again, the India fans have been swinging with the pendulum.

It took 1 bad session(3rd) yesterday and 2 bad ones today (2nd &3rd) for the pendulum to have swung to other extreme.
It's that type of series.

Can India salvage a win from suhc adversity...sure it's test cricket and surely possible.....Jurel keeps striking, Akash can hold bat as is Kuldeep and they finish with deficit of 50
Eng tries to "safely"build lead and crumble for 150
200 very chasable

On the other hand Eng could get a lead of 100 and score 300, leaving a 400 chase.....almost impossible.


What I haven't  gotten my head around is the true nature of pitch...from diabolical when Jaiswal & Sarfaraz were there to benign in last one hour when Kuldeep & Jurel went untroubled......that doesn't happen often in test cricket.

With the help of light roller first hour the pitch should remain settled hopefully.....we'll figure by second hour the truer nature of pitch.
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Post by king_carlos Sat 24 Feb 2024, 8:20 pm

It's an odd pitch. I think by and large the spin on offer is looking slower than it did on the first session of D1. That variable up and down bounce was bad on D1, worse on D2 and I can't see it getting better though. That alone makes it a very tough pitch to bat on regardless of the spin on offer and cracks potentially giving the seamers more movement. It doesn't matter how good someone is with the bat, if they get a pea shooter you are stuffed. Jaiswal's dismissal today summed that up. He's been in superlative form, then he gets a grubber and a guy who's barely failed to find the middle can only just jam the bottom of his bat onto it too late.

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Post by VTR Sat 24 Feb 2024, 10:19 pm

I'm still getting my head around it all. For Robinson to thrive with the bat, that points to a pretty flat deck, so expectations of a big score from India seemed reasonable. But for a pitch to be prepared that starts falling apart like this, that's madness from the Indian curator, because it can elevate average spinners like England have to be lethal.

Should be a good day tomorrow anyway, India definitely not out of it if they can get close to England's score

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Post by Duty281 Sat 24 Feb 2024, 10:23 pm

The pitch is buggered. Cracks everywhere, plenty keeping low, it's incredibly tough to bat on.

England just need to be professional and they've got this win sealed.

4/6 on an England win. What a price.

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Post by Duty281 Sat 24 Feb 2024, 10:30 pm

VTR wrote:I'm still getting my head around it all. For Robinson to thrive with the bat, that points to a pretty flat deck, so expectations of a big score from India seemed reasonable. But for a pitch to be prepared that starts falling apart like this, that's madness from the Indian curator, because it can elevate average spinners like England have to be lethal.

Should be a good day tomorrow anyway, India definitely not out of it if they can get close to England's score

And it happened, though to a greater extent, the last time Australia toured India.

India 2-0 up, two comfortable victories, and the third test was a spinning lottery. Neither team getting to 200 at any point and Australia getting a win, with Kuhnemann taking 5/16. Just let Australia back in the series. Madness.

Then the road came out for test four, ensuring an Indian series win.

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Post by king_carlos Sat 24 Feb 2024, 11:08 pm

It was some day for Bashir. His shot to get out was was a bit like Panesar's ability crossed with late career Broad's application. I know it's not his main job but it was a properly sh*te shot. Then he takes 4-fer bowling 32 overs from one end.

The more I watch of his bowling, the more I really like what there is to work with though. His stock ball seems strong. He gets decent revs on the ball. He's accurate, so he doesn't bowl that many poor balls for such a young spinner. Due to a combination of his height and that Axar-esque length he bowls he isn't as easy to sweep or come down the track to as some English spinners can seem in Tests. Yet because of how he varies his pace, he still keeps the stumps in play for LBW.

One thing he doesn't get at this stage is much drift or dip. Which is generally integral to Test spinners having much use in many conditions and especially in the 1st innings. Lyon is a master of that by getting so much drop on the ball. I didn't really 'get' how good Lyon is until I saw him bowl live, with seats side on to the wicket. The way the ball just dropped out the air at the last minute was something I hadn't really seen before. It was such a different flight to what I was accustomed to watching. Judging length just looked like a nightmare. It gives him utility even when the pitch isn't in his favour. Spinners can learn to get drift and dip though. Leach did so and fairly late in his career at that.

I think there's a lot there to persevere with considering how bare England's spin stocks have looked for a while.

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Post by guildfordbat Sun 25 Feb 2024, 12:36 am

Hi Carlos - top summaries of day 2 and related matters in your posts above.

Not a perfect day for England but still an extremely good one.

Great for Root and Robinson to achieve a century partnership but a little disappointed by the manner of the latter's dismissal. Reverse sweep, really? It just wasn't necessary or appropriate. Then Bashir - Finn in the tv studio was overwhelmingly generous in attributing it to ''inexperience''; for me, utter idiocy. Bashir and Anderson (who soon fell to a sweep which I also wasn't overly keen on) should have had one job with the bat - Stay With Joe. As it was, they immediately left him stranded on 122 when I hoped to see him reach 150. Anyway, we still topped 350 which I would have settled for at the end of day 1.

Very much as Carlos said, clever and mature bowling from Bashir and Hartley to snare 6 wickets from prolonged spells after Jimmy had popped up with an early one to account for Rohit. Tidy and thoughtful spin bowling. I would have liked another wicket before stumps but readily acknowledge that Jurel and Kuldeep played with sensible resolution. Jurel has appeared in his two Tests as a savvy performer with gloves and bat. By way of contrast, Sarfaraz didn't look nearly so comfortable here without team runs already on the table; he could have been caught earlier at slip (as also mentioned on comms, Root seems to stand too wide of Foakes meaning he too often has to move inside to his left) or run out in a mix up of his own making (I wondered if the throw from midwicket would have been a direct hit if Foakes hadn't (understandably) taken it in front?).

As also mentioned by Carlos, Jaiswal is mightily impressive and was equally unlucky to be done by a ball keeping low. The other person who had particular trouble with the low bounce was Foakes; 3 deliveries beat him as he conceded 8 byes. That's unusually high for him and clearly points to batting being increasingly tricky over the remainder of this Test.

As KP_f commented earlier, nothing can be taken as guaranteed in this or any other match but we are undoubtedly in a strong position with a decent first innings lead on offer in the morning provided we continue to bowl well and India having to bat last on a track which should deteriorate further. Until day 3 - Moving Day, but you knew and expected that, Carlos. Wink


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Post by alfie Sun 25 Feb 2024, 3:13 am

Only able to see in bits and pieces as playing myself yesterday , and then at club end of season gathering...but pretty happy with what I did see and the overall scorecard. (A lot of cheering in the clubrooms - where we had managed to obtain a TV with the match showing - when those wickets fell after tea ; which is down to the fact that we have managed to become something of a Melbourne Home for English cricketers , either visiting for a few weeks or playing a season with us. We have a few Indian chaps too who were slightly less exuberant Smile

Will catch up highlights before start of play today. But obviously impressed with Bashir - who seemed more in control than in his debut match - and Hartley. Have to give Stokes full marks too from the clever way he handles his attack : I know he gets some flak for taking too much time over field manipulation but am prepared to forgive him even if it does cost the odd demerit point ...winning matches more important I think.

Not getting carried away yet as we have seen these matches swing around. But I think my original belief that the pitch was going to give plenty of aid to bowlers throughout , though not always consistently , has been proved correct. So certainly considerable advantage England. Hopefully to continue that way and keep this very interesting series alive...

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Post by alfie Sun 25 Feb 2024, 3:41 am

Annoyingly not getting those highlights now because some of the local matches are having times adjusted due to weather. So grateful for match reports from KC and others OK

Day three may be "moving day" again , eh ? Will seek to provide reports today once we get under way today ...

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Post by alfie Sun 25 Feb 2024, 4:16 am

Bashir and Robinson opening up this morning. Much cooler than usual for these parts ...a few jumpers being worn out there !

Nothing unplayable yet but still signs of variable bounce. Jurel and Kuldeep both watchful...has already been a very handy partnership for India, and their main hope of getting up towards that England score , one would assume. New ball due in three more which might be telling... 226/7

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Post by alfie Sun 25 Feb 2024, 4:27 am

Bashir bowling very well , but disappointing from Robinson so far. Several no balls already and a couple of loose deliveries ; hope he's going to tighten up - in the second innings in particular. Pace in mid 120s and I'm not seeing (yet) the fellow who often looks so dangerous in home conditions. Maybe just rusty ...

All a bit quiet this first half hour . 80 overs down... 230/7

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Post by alfie Sun 25 Feb 2024, 4:36 am

New ball taken immediately. But still Bashir partnering Robinson. Have to say these two bats have looked in no trouble at all this morning , adding more useful runs. 63 they've put together now.

Here's Jimmy to replace Robinson...240/7

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Post by alfie Sun 25 Feb 2024, 4:55 am

Good running by these two...several singles from just tapping into the on side...smart cricket.

Have to say if you didn't know 17 wickets had fallen in two days you'd think this was a pretty benign surface. Nothing tricky at all at present for the batsmen , who continue to play carefully but taking anything on offer. Trimming that deficit nicely as the 250 comes up...

Bashir still operating at one end . Have taken away the silly point in favour of two slips but not seeing any mistakes from Kuldeep ; and Jurel looks rock solid. England might be wondering how they're going to break this pair . 14 overs today and 32 added with zero alarms. This game keeps changing - as apparently does the pitch !

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Post by alfie Sun 25 Feb 2024, 5:02 am

If this were to go pear shaped , by the way , I would be blaming Duty for abandoning his usual pessimistic outlook and putting money on England last night 😀 That really was tempting fate...

Hartley on now. Good over rate anyway. And at last...Jimmy strikes , Kuldeep plays on for a valuable 28. Bit unlucky , bat to foot to stumps...England won't care. 252/8 and we will have a drink...

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Post by KP_fan Sun 25 Feb 2024, 5:05 am

Morning hour negotiated safely by India but not quite as kudeep after an excellent vigil falls in an unfortunate dismissal

Pitch has looked settled and beautiful tk bat in first hour
Let's see what stuff akashdeep is made of
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Post by alfie Sun 25 Feb 2024, 5:08 am

Interesting that Anderson is bowling 5-10 kph faster than Robinson today. Not bad for a 41 yo... Deep survived the over.

And Jurel reaches a fine fifty now ...well played clap. Just 99 behind.

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Post by alfie Sun 25 Feb 2024, 5:20 am

Cat and mouse time as England spread the field for Jurel...who seems intent on farming the strike. Shows Stokes isn't expecting any great help for the bowlers - pitch does seem to have gone to sleep. Wonder if this would be the time for Ben to try an over or two of his own ? Jimmy continuing for now...

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Post by alfie Sun 25 Feb 2024, 5:38 am

Bashir back on and Akash looks to take him on... As does Jurel , only to be dropped at mid on by Robinson ; who is using up some of his credit from that innings of his with an uninspiring morning...

Lead down to 85 and this tail end resistance is gradually bringing India back into the match. Questions of course as to how this strangely up and down pitch is going to behave as we go on...I am genuinely puzzled as to how it keeps changing.???

Make that a lead of just 74 now as Jurel takes to a Bashir over...how much will that drop cost , I wonder...

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Post by alfie Sun 25 Feb 2024, 5:53 am

England bowling looks a bit toothless at the moment. Lunch approaching and if these two stay in India will arguably be essentially on level terms ...not a big deficit and surely emboldened by the way they've handled this today when they have to chase...plus they have a stronger bowling unit. Batting last will surely be a disadvantage but the way this pitch has varied , who knows ?

Jurel on to 80 : just the one chance and has brought India within sixty runs. Now is this the wicket ? Deep given lbw on field...yes , hitting top of middle and five wickets for Bashir clapclapclap

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Post by alfie Sun 25 Feb 2024, 5:58 am

Timely break but Akash Deep did well ...just nine runs but aided in a stand of forty vital runs. Can Siraj see Jurel to a century ? He's hitting sixes and fours quite often lately...and he's on to 90 as the three hundred comes up...

Has been a great session for India.

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Post by alfie Sun 25 Feb 2024, 6:05 am

Torture for England as four byes bring the lead down to 46, Siraj defending an over safely. Lunch delayed because nine down.

Beginning to wonder if India might even get a lead ! Well no they won't as Hartley bowls Jurel for a wonderful 90 with a very fine delivery...

307 so India's morning . England still ahead with a lead of 46 but nowhere near comfortable and will need to bat well on resumption. Another good contest thumbsup

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Post by KP_fan Sun 25 Feb 2024, 6:07 am

India was half the score of Eng when 7th wkt fell about 180 short ...and finishes only 46 short
Pitch held up well...and Jurel is some clean striker of the ball ain't he.
Eng should be happy with a lead and India with confidence up to chase, especially if pitch remains like it has been in last 3 hours of batting
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Post by KP_fan Sun 25 Feb 2024, 6:16 am

Dravid should note how far you can pull yourself back from a bad top /middle order collapse if you have a WK at 7 who can bat and lower order that can hold the bat.

Cook in studio observed which is the most likely fact...that pitch has held up.
It only misbehaves if the ball hits the Crack which has not been very often.....Basically at most once in last 3 hours , the delivery that got Jurel perhaps .
Even that I think he played across the line trying to maneuvere into mid wicket Gap
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Post by alfie Sun 25 Feb 2024, 6:18 am

Yes a lot seems to depend on how this pitch plays as we go on. I've given up predicting : very treacherous first session day one , flat (mostly) after lunch , and yesterday morning , no ? And then apparently giving batsmen lots of problems later on day two : I didn't see much of it but see others on here describe it as a minefield- which was probably overstatement. Flat as you like this morning , certainly - but that last wicket ball turned a bit.

England had some fortune in this innings with getting on the right side of umpires call for lbw decisions. Which is probably justice for getting the worst of them on other days in this series. But does also point up the importance for both sides of using their referalls wisely : there will likely be a lot of lbw appeals over the next day or two...

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Post by msp83 Sun 25 Feb 2024, 6:44 am

So then... couldn't follow much of the game yesterday, but an interesting day indeed it was. India would have been happy that they managed to restrict England to just about 350, and then reaching 85-1 with Gill and Jaiswal both looking comfortable. Then it all went horribly wrong for them. A few bad shots, few not trusting their defense enough, ball consistently hitting the cracks and troubling the batters, and by the time they doubled that score, lost another 6 wickets.
Then a fabulous fightback, Kuldeep Yadav assisting the mighty impressive Dhruv Jurel in a very fine partnership. Kuldeep played more than 125 deliveries for that watchful 28 and from what I've watched of him, he looked untroubled before getting out in that unfortunate way.
Then Jurel played brilliantly to take them to 307... I don't think I'd be worrying about Ishan Kishan playing or not playing Ranji Trophy any more. Rishabh is playing warm-up games already, and he'll resume keeping probably in the 2nd half of the IPL. And then there is this guy, great match awareness, a solid game...

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Post by alfie Sun 25 Feb 2024, 6:59 am

India's good day continues...Duckett falls to a short leg catch off Ashwin. Pope goes first ball lbw and things are changing fast !

Suddenly ball doing plenty...

All the pressure back on England.

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Post by KP_fan Sun 25 Feb 2024, 7:01 am

When a.s.s was on fire India gave up the charade of opening with seamers and giving free 40 runs
Ashwin is one of the best users of new hard ball
Will be on a hattrick next over
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Post by alfie Sun 25 Feb 2024, 7:11 am

Getting a lot of anxiety here. Missing out on the expected big lead has hurt England and revived Indian spirits...at 21/2 this is anything but the relaxing third innings stroll that India had in the last match. And Ashwin has his tail up...didn't get the hat trick but he's attacking with every ball...

Lot of cricket left in this. But you feel if England were to collapse here , India would fancy a fourth innings chase even on a pitch that gets trickier as it wears. And as usual, rest time for England's bowlers might be an important factor. Ball seems to be doing more for India than it did for the England spinners this morning , even when they took the new one. Skills , freshness , effects of the roller ? Whatever ; there is a deal of tension out there that we never really saw before lunch.

Couple of nicely driven boundaries from Crawley so he's clearly sticking to his method...make that three boundaries. 38/2...

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Post by KP_fan Sun 25 Feb 2024, 7:14 am

Change ashwin for kuldeep
Ind needa to remove Crawley soon
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Post by msp83 Sun 25 Feb 2024, 7:18 am

The lead getting close to a hundred. The pitch isn't impossible to bat, but it is challenging. India wouldn't want to chase anything more than 200...

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Post by msp83 Sun 25 Feb 2024, 7:21 am

England going along at above 4 an over. Half-an-hour more of Crawley, India would be finding themselves in deep trouble.

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Post by alfie Sun 25 Feb 2024, 7:23 am

He didn't use Kuldeep until quite late on day one . Maybe thinks these two are better suited to this pitch...which isn't really playing too many tricks even now ; though the way the bowlers have attacked the stumps early here has made batting look a lot less relaxed than it was earlier in the day.

55/2 from 13. Game moving on...

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Post by KP_fan Sun 25 Feb 2024, 7:30 am

msp83 wrote:The lead getting close to a hundred. The pitch isn't impossible to bat, but it is challenging. India wouldn't want to chase anything more than 200...

If you don't hit rhe bad cracks there is nothing in the pitch
Duckett has fallen lunging to forward defense more than once
And Pope was just beaten and played back to one he shud have come forward
Anything upto 300 appears chasable
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Post by alfie Sun 25 Feb 2024, 7:30 am

Situation hard to read really. Normally you'd say a lead of 200 would be very challenging given the way the pitch has played at times...but then you see a few overs go by with nothing happening for the bowlers -( or a couple of hours like this morning ! ) and you think maybe even 300 would be chaseable. The thing is , we really haven't - yet - seen the pitch go from occasional mischief to the sort of complete spin-dizzy you often see in India on the later days of a match. So hard to assess in advance what batting tomorrow will be like...

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Post by KP_fan Sun 25 Feb 2024, 7:38 am

Root gone.
Pluck Crawley , Game over
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Post by alfie Sun 25 Feb 2024, 7:38 am

Root gone on review ! Wow...

Advantage India ?

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Post by VTR Sun 25 Feb 2024, 7:39 am

Still can't fathom this! England looked like they would almost certainly get a 150 lead then probably set an unchaseable 275. Now the pitch doesn't appear too bad so it was a 40 lead but 350 appears to be chaseable. Very strange pitch!

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Post by msp83 Sun 25 Feb 2024, 7:41 am

Big strike from Ashwin. Root's just missed a straight one basically, a touch surprised why that wasn't given on field. India successfully reviews and Root's gone! England 65-3...

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Post by guildfordbat Sun 25 Feb 2024, 7:41 am

Morning / evening folks - we didn't want that! Root goes lbw for Ashwin's third of this dig. On a first watch, I thought it would be Umpire's Call on Pitching which would have saved Joe as not given out onfield.

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Post by VTR Sun 25 Feb 2024, 7:43 am

Feel this is turning towards India, getting close to England's score and now these three early wickets, that's got to feed into the confidence when it comes to the chase, which at this rate might not even be 250.

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Post by guildfordbat Sun 25 Feb 2024, 7:46 am

alfie wrote:Interesting that Anderson is bowling 5-10 kph faster than Robinson today. Not bad for a 41 yo... Deep survived the over.

And Jurel reaches a fine fifty now ...well played clap.   Just 99 behind.

Not so good for a 30 yo...

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