England - The Next Episode: Part Deux: Phoenix from the Ashes

First topic message reminder :

Net up...Summer Tour to NZ...and a game v Japan

Shoulder is all that's been released, doc. He's had an ongoing issue for a while though, they decided to deal with it now, so presumably it got worse. A big blow though. He was very good in the Six Nations.

I can see CCS maybe getting more game time now. I was expecting Chess at 6 in the NZ tests.

I rate Coles but he doesn't add power like Chessum on the flank, nor the physicality of CCS.

king_carlos wrote:Shoulder is all that's been released, doc. He's had an ongoing issue for a while though, they decided to deal with it now, so presumably it got worse. A big blow though. He was very good in the Six Nations.

I can see CCS maybe getting more game time now. I was expecting Chess at 6 in the NZ tests.

I rate Coles but he doesn't add power like Chessum on the flank, nor the physicality of CCS.

Thanks for the info. I suppose if the reports have Chessum back in time for the new season, the injury is not too serious.  Hopefully, that's the case.  He is still developing so this would have been a great opportunity to see how he would have gotten on against the ABs.  

In fact, with so many younger players this will still be a great measuring stick for the England team.  Shame Chessum will miss that, but hopefully restarts in the autumn where he left off (except against Saints).

More gametime for CCS, Earl to flanker...
CCS offers a lineout option at 8 aswell so you can have two proper flankers ...Earl, Underhill

And probably an opportunity to look at Barbeary aswell if he want CCS at 6 maybe

I do rate Coles though...turned in to a very good player and bulked up a bit as most of the Saints players have.

I think we'll see Tuima travel. They might take this as an opportunity to see how his physicality and particularly his fitness is at the moment for this level.

Locks

Martin,
Itoje
Coles
Tuima

CCS is not fully baked yet. He's not really got 80 minute stamina and there are aspects of his game that aren't yet reliable, including his lineout and handling.

He will be great given time to develop, but I am wary of putting too much on him too soon. Same with players like Barbeary, who are still making the transition to the level of conditioning needed for international rugby.

His minutes can be managed and rotated with Coles, Earl, Barbeary etc...

Start at 8 and play 40 mins, replaced by Barbeary or Earls moves to 8 at half time and Coles comes to 6 etc etc. Or come on at half time and finish the game at 6 or 8...

I appreciate what a tour to NZ involves....But i would rather give him the minutes than someone who IMO is a short term option like say Roots.

This narrative that CCS cannot play for 80mins isn't correct to me. He played all game for Quin's v Toulouse and was excellent and as I recall no drop off in intensity.

mountain man wrote:This narrative that CCS cannot play for 80mins isn't correct to me. He played all game for Quin's v Toulouse and was excellent and as I recall no drop off in intensity.

If he can go a full 80 against Toulouse, then there isn't much more he can do.

king_carlos wrote:Shoulder is all that's been released, doc. He's had an ongoing issue for a while though, they decided to deal with it now, so presumably it got worse. A big blow though. He was very good in the Six Nations.

I understand the timing is so that he'll be back for pre season and therefore get a proper build up to the season. If they'd left it a few weeks then there was a risk he'd miss the start of pre season. This season is pretty much gone for Tigers so makes sense to take the long view with him.

I'd be amazed if Guy Pepper doesn't travel...the boy is unreal..and what an engine.

Feyi Waboso....just wow...

Poorfour wrote:CCS is not fully baked yet. He's not really got 80 minute stamina and there are aspects of his game that aren't yet reliable, including his lineout and handling.

He will be great given time to develop, but I am wary of putting too much on him too soon. Same with players like Barbeary, who are still making the transition to the level of conditioning needed for international rugby.

Agreed. Huge talent but I'd prefer to use him for fewer minutes where he can make a real impact, than start him against NZ if the conditioning isn't quite there yet.

Most Quins fans I spoke to felt he faded a bit playing the full 80 against Toulouse. That was only the second time he's played 80 minutes in professional rugby too. The previous being in the PRC back in '21/22 where he was at lock for LI!

His minutes per game have been increasing as the season's gone on though. Which is brilliant to see.

Geordie wrote:Feyi Waboso....just wow...

Stealing him from Wales is beginning to look like incredible food value. The last time I saw a wing with this level of x factor from the British Isles it was Robinson or Williams.

Thie thing is Sam his work rate and his power to size ratio is incredible. He gets stuck in at rucks and is very aggressive...

Could be very special....

Geordie wrote:Thie thing is Sam his work rate and his power to size ratio is incredible.  He gets stuck in at rucks and is very aggressive...

Could be very special....

He already is pretty special. The NZ tour could be the chance for him to announce that on the international stage.

Baxter name-checked Greg Fisilau, who is still only 21. Telegraph thinks he out-played CCS and Dombrandt, so deserves to be in the conversation for tour places.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2024/05/12/greg-fisilau-exeter-harlequins-england-new-zealand-tour/

Dombrant was prime Dombrant at the weekend. Served up some tasty bits for the highlights reel and then disappeared. The only player in the pack to make less tackles was Will Collier. 6 tackles and 7 carries does not point to a particularly high workload even if some of those carries were eye catching.

Fisilau made 18 carries for north of 100m, 9 passes as well as 13 tackles. He was everywhere.

Didn’t realise Fisilau was that young, could be very good indeed

I really rate Fisilau, I wouldn't be upset at all if he was in the summer tour squads. I probably see him more as a blindside at international level. I'd be very happy with CCS and Barbeary touring as out and out no 8 options, with Earl and Fisilau as flankers who cover 8.

A few injuries are starting to creep in which will open up opportunities. Chessum is already ruled out. Pearson hasn't played since March either.

Judging by the Six Nations squads, Pepper is probably the next cab off the rank at openside.

Blindside is a bit more open. Chessum being injured will presumably ink Roots into the squad. Fisilau? Ted Hill? I wouldn't mind them looking at Callum Chick. He's got the huge work rate and is a stronger carrier than others. Reminds me a bit of Ludlam in that he seems to do everything well and often.

It was great to read that Tom Curry had come through a full training week with Sale as well. Given the rumours of that injury being potentially career threatening it's nuts that he's come back so quickly.

Pebbles wrote:Didn’t realise Fisilau was that young, could be very good indeed

Rugby Fan has actually aged him prematurely, he's still 20 until July.

Not sure I agree with KC about him being a flanker though, particularly if we want a jumper at 6. He's only 6ft2 and isn't used in that role for Chiefs. If he's combined with CCS then we probably get away with it but that would be an inexperienced 6/8 combination.

The all action work rate of Fisilau would fit with what Borthwick likes from 8 and Fisilau isn't short on physicality despite not being the biggest bloke.

The number 7 battle alone is going to be fascinating....
T. Curry, Underhill, Earl, Pepper (he's going to be some player)

Developing CCS at means you can afford to maybe play two of those on the flank.

Geordie wrote:The number 7 battle alone is going to be fascinating....
T. Curry,  Underhill,  Earl, Pepper (he's going to be some player)

Developing CCS at means you can afford to maybe play two of those on the flank.

I think if Earl is one then you can probably have another. The attack at the tail end of the 6N improved an awful lot but I think we still need two physical ball carriers in the backrow. Whether TCurry can come back from injury and offer that well see I guess.

Yes...it remains to be seen what Tom Curry comes back.

Earl has become one of my favorite England players and would be one of the first names on the teamsheet. He just offers so much...

V Japan...
6 Underhill
7 Earl, with Pepper off the bench.
8 CCS start, Barbeary finishes

I wouldn't play Underhill against Japan, that would be ideal game to see what someone else can do. We and coaches know what Underhill brings to game so in a match like Japan it's ideal to give someone else a run.
As for no 8, CCS and Barbeary fit the bill nicely. Earl undroppable virtually so he's at 7 although again Japan game ideal to see what others can do.

Oh i appreciate that,,,,im just conscious they're going in against NZ soon after so they need a little bit of time together...hence starting Earl and Underhill then giving Pepper / Roots or Coles at 6 etc a run out...

You are thinking the starting back row for the summer will be Underhill, Earl, and....

Have to agree about Earl, he is playing as well or better than anyone is the current England squad.  Still sure you start him against Japan? Or not? I haven't really thought about it one way or the other, so really not challenging or debating, just wondering why you want to start him.

Yeah I think with no Curry or Chessum it's Underhill  and Earl with one other ..maybe Roots as he's already been playing....or with CCS and Barbeary sharing the workload from the bench...

Coles maybe in here at 6 would give rhe added lineout option if CCS isn't quite trusted....yet

Most of these guys can cover multiple back row positions so makes things interesting for SB.

Sorry Doc just to add ..stsrt them just to give them some familiarity with each other again...doesn't have to be too long..then bring the others on....

Geordie wrote:Yeah I think with no Curry or Chessum it's Underhill  and Earl with one other ..maybe Roots as he's already been playing....or with CCS and Barbeary sharing the workload from the bench...

Coles maybe in here at 6 would give rhe added lineout option if CCS isn't quite trusted....yet

Most of these guys can cover multiple back row positions so makes things interesting for SB.

Sorry Doc just to add ..stsrt them just to give them some familiarity with each other again...doesn't have to be too long..then bring the others on....

You are certainly right there can be a lot of mixing and matching with this group.  Maybe starting Coles, Underhill, and Earl?  Good mix of speed and power.  Ultimately, it would be great if Barbeary can get a good go at 8, then we can put Earl on the side of the scrum again.

Sometimes I think this screams out that the old A side or Saxons is sorely needed. How do we get game time to develop players without games?

It might end up being down to the 3rd jumper option. Courtney Lawes has said you need 3 jumpers to really allow you to attack an opposition...so if SB is going the same route...it may come down to how adept Coles v CCS is at this level lineout...

Maybe v Japan
6 Underhill (40 mins) for Coles
7 Earl (40 mins) bring Pepper on
8 CCS v Barbeary 40 mins each..

So you also have 3 jumpers...

Just one option. .

I could be good with that. Hopefully no one picks up any injuries over the next few weeks.

Geordie wrote:It might end up being down to the 3rd jumper option.  Courtney Lawes has said you need 3 jumpers to really allow you to attack an opposition...so if SB is going the same route...it may come down to how adept Coles v CCS is at this level lineout...

Maybe v Japan
6 Underhill (40 mins) for Coles
7 Earl (40 mins) bring Pepper on
8 CCS v Barbeary 40 mins each..

So you also have 3 jumpers...

Just one option.  .

7-1 bench split?

Why not Sam....if it's good for SA it's good for us.

Earl and Dan Cole can cover the backs anyway...

Geordie wrote:Why not Sam....if it's good for SA it's good for us.

Earl and Dan Cole can cover the backs anyway...

I'd hope that we'd not be playing Dan Cole Vs Japan. Same with Joe Marler, if he makes the tour.

Need to give some combinations a run out but at the same time some of the other squad members need game time and we need to consider who's playing in the Prem Final and then expected to start Vs NZ. A good example might be Mitchell who gets hit a lot for a scrum half, Earl and Itoje might be others that need that extra game off after a gruelling season and a Prem Final. Obviously depends on who makes it.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Geordie wrote:Why not Sam....if it's good for SA it's good for us.

Earl and Dan Cole can cover the backs anyway...

I'd hope that we'd not be playing Dan Cole Vs Japan. Same with Joe Marler, if he makes the tour.

Need to give some combinations a run out but at the same time some of the other squad members need game time and we need to consider who's playing in the Prem Final and then expected to start Vs NZ. A good example might be Mitchell who gets hit a lot for a scrum half, Earl and Itoje might be others that need that extra game off after a gruelling season and a Prem Final. Obviously depends on who makes it.

Agree.  With the Japan match first up, it definitely leaves an opportunity to give some players an extra week off.  Which for many, is clearly the right thing to do.  And for others a chance to show what they can do.

I wonder who (or what) tracks player's actual game time as compared to max game time limits.  I would also like to see how the England players stack up compared to those limits.

Doesn't look for Genge there, being helped from the field. Hopefully not going to have too many implications for the summer...

Where does Johnny May lie in the list of England's best ever wingers....he must be right up there...at his peak he was very special...

Cumbrian wrote:Doesn't look for Genge there, being helped from the field.  Hopefully not going to have too many implications for the summer...

See rhe extent....but if serious, Obano comes in then.

Marler, Baxter, Obano
If Marler isn't travelling...it gets down to nitty...

Baxter, Obano, Brantingham....jeez that's a young set of loosheasds to go go Nz!!

Geordie wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:Doesn't look for Genge there, being helped from the field.  Hopefully not going to have too many implications for the summer...

See rhe extent....but if serious, Obano comes in then.

Marler, Baxter, Obano
If Marler isn't travelling...it gets down to nitty...

Baxter, Obano, Brantingham....jeez that's a young set of loosheasds to go go Nz!!

You'd take Rodd before Brantingham. Rodd's scrum work has got better, not strong but more solid. His mobility and handling skills though could be a stand out if he can translate them to the international scene. He's only 23 still.

Otherwise you'd be looking at Saints duo Ioygen and Haffar. Haffar is a massive prospect. I'd probably select Haffar after Rodd personally.

Ahh forgot about Rodd, but I'm not sold and when the youngsters come through I think he'll be overtaken quite quickly.

Haffar is developing...and could be the best of the lot as an alrounder...
Iyogen looks very good.

Brantingham biased though I am has become first choice in the worst side in prem history and stood out...for his scrummaging and defence, rucking play. Not easy to do at prop.

So there's some great options there for SB to look at.

Owen Farrell wasn't best pleased with Bevan Rodd at one point.

https://www.reddit.com/r/rugbyunion/comments/1cvmnua/faz_calling_bevan_rodd_a_soft_prck_after_his/

Farrell is bang on right there..."that's pathetic Bevan" ha ha...

I've always kind of liked that side of Faz that hasn't enamoured him to others.

I actually feel for Rodd there though. It looks to me like he just trips over his teammates legs though? Watching it back, he steps on Andrew's foot, lifts his leg straight back up as a reflex of not wanting to step on his teammates foot, then trips over his leg, is suddenly getting scolded by a mic'd up ref before he has a chance to get up.

Geordie wrote:Ahh forgot about Rodd, but I'm not sold and when the youngsters come through I think he'll be overtaken quite quickly.

Yeah I don't think there's any certainty around him becoming a top level international or anything but his scrum work is solid and he's got the best hands of any England prop since Mako. Gives real options in attack to be able to play off one of your props in that way.

Iyogun has impressed me whenever I've seen him. Hopefully Genge is able to recover, though. He played well on Saturday.

It's going to be a really good challenge for the props. The NZ props are looking very good and are absolutely gigantic. The quartet of de Groot, Lomax, Williams and Laulala must've had an average weight around a stone heavier than Andy Sheridan. Monstrous. Laulala has moved to France, but the other 3 are looking like mainstays. Newell is on the smaller side but still pushing towards 19 stone.

The ABs seemingly making that shift after the Ireland series loss was interesting. They've generally strayed towards smaller props who are rock solid technically, have massive engines and good hands. Woodcock and Franks. After that series loss, they shifted away from that archetype in Bower and seemed to actively hunt out ball carriers. Mutants that Greg Feek could teach to scrummage.

It does make sense when defences are now so good. The days of having one primary carrier to get over the gain line are done. The best sides just deal with it too easily. If you need multiple carriers who can make yards after contact carrying off 9, then prop makes sense. They need to be giants anyway. Those 4 ABs props from the final are all bigger than Billy V. It's a pretty useful battery to throw at a set fringe defence.

Yeah when Newell is dropped for being the little one at 6ft1 and 19 stone you know you're going to be facing some big lads.

I think the only prop we took to the world cup who was at the 20 stone mark was Will Stuart. Not like we've got any man mountains to bring in either.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Yeah when Newell is dropped for being the little one at 6ft1 and 19 stone you know you're going to be facing some big lads.

I think the only prop we took to the world cup who was at the 20 stone mark was Will Stuart. Not like we've got any man mountains to bring in either.

NZ have certainly decided to draft in boxing extras from the Rocky movies into their front row. Big and snorting mean.

Tommy Smith was too small to go up against the real big guys of the time (sorry, had to be said).  Also, as someone I work with regularly said to me about NFL linemen:  "you can put an athlete on a Sumo wrestler diet for a while, it doesn't make them better players".  I don't think the current front rows in either NZ or England are much to write home about (unless we are talking Sinckler and Marler and you are talking about a senior citizen home).  Each pretty good at some things, but not great. I watched only a little Super Rugby this year and didn't notice the props standing out.

It's why I think the tight five camps are a very good idea. As said several times, the academy coaching is excellent and pumps out technically very well coached players. So often I see U18s props and second rows in particular who are terrific rugby players but just look unlikely to fill out for the senior game. You need that massive frame and the skills to get far these days in those positions.

There will always be outliers. Danillo Fischetti is tiny for a modern prop but he's developed into a marvellous LH. They are becoming fewer and even the outliers are generally bigger though.

Being 22 stone, whilst very helpful, isn't the only way for a prop to add carrying either. Kitshoff, whilst a monstrous humans, isn't an outliers in terms of size for a modern prop, but his is insanely powerful and dynamic. He also jackals like an openside, which is rather useful. Cyril Baille is a very good ball carrier for France without being a giant too. Maybe that's a sign of where ball carrying expectations for props are heading in itself though? Baille is basically their set-piece specialist LH but he's a quality carrier. Which is still a shift compared to the previous generations of set-piece props like Coley. Opoku-Fordjour looks like that more modern style of set-piece prop who still carries very well.

I do feel that Prem clubs are starting to give the bigger units more time in the U24 'academy cap' to develop. So it does feel there's been a response to how the game's changing. It might just take time to bear fruit.

Great points. Agree, the tight five academies are a huge step forward and a great idea. It is hard, especially when money is tight at the clubs, to give younger props time to grow into whatever they will become. So these academies are a terrific way to get the technical basics drilled in so the players can develop whatever other part of their game they choose.

Here is an observation which is probably pertinent to nothing: In the NFL the average weight of most linemen (the big fatties) was pretty stable for quite a while with 300 lbs. kind of a median number. Only recently have I seen their weight start to increase again which I am struggling to find a reason why. Other docs/physio staff have noticed the same and we are all curious. Perhaps the same is in play with Rugby front rows?

doctor_grey wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:Yeah when Newell is dropped for being the little one at 6ft1 and 19 stone you know you're going to be facing some big lads.

I think the only prop we took to the world cup who was at the 20 stone mark was Will Stuart. Not like we've got any man mountains to bring in either.

NZ have certainly decided to draft in boxing extras from the Rocky movies into their front row.  Big and snorting mean.

Tommy Smith was too small to go up against the real big guys of the time (sorry, had to be said).  Also, as someone I work with regularly said to me about NFL linemen:  "you can put an athlete on a Sumo wrestler diet for a while, it doesn't make them better players".  I don't think the current front rows in either NZ or England are much to write home about (unless we are talking Sinckler and Marler and you are talking about a senior citizen home).  Each pretty good at some things, but not great.  I watched only a little Super Rugby this year and didn't notice the props standing out.  

Sinckler is 31 and Marler 33 which isn't that old in prop terms. The issue is more that Sinckler has lost form and England have lost faith with him (though ironically he has looked to have recaptured some of that now that his move to France is confirmed) and Marler's head is only intermittently in the game as far as internationals are concerned.

Baxter is 6'1" and 18 stone, so not small even if he gives up a bit to his likely opponents; he also showed in Bordeaux and Toulouse that he can stand up to and even dominate much bigger props; he looks a bit drained at the moment, but a few weeks' break and working with the likes of George, Itoje and Martin should bring out the best in him. Iyogun is 6'3" and about half a stone heavier, so the issue is likely to be in experience rather than skill and heft.

There was a good interview with Sinckler after the match on Saturday on the ITV4 highlights show. He thinks he's in his prime now which is probably about right for a prop. Shame he's been poor last few years though and now not eligible anyway.