England - The Next Episode: Part Deux: Phoenix from the Ashes

by Geordie Tue 16 Apr 2024, 1:51 pm

First topic message reminder :

Net up...Summer Tour to NZ...and a game v Japan

by formerly known as Sam Tue 21 May 2024, 12:22 pm

king_carlos wrote:It's why I think the tight five camps are a very good idea. As said several times, the academy coaching is excellent and pumps out technically very well coached players. So often I see U18s props and second rows in particular who are terrific rugby players but just look unlikely to fill out for the senior game. You need that massive frame and the skills to get far these days in those positions.

There will always be outliers. Danillo Fischetti is tiny for a modern prop but he's developed into a marvellous LH. They are becoming fewer and even the outliers are generally bigger though.

Being 22 stone, whilst very helpful, isn't the only way for a prop to add carrying either. Kitshoff, whilst a monstrous humans, isn't an outliers in terms of size for a modern prop, but his is insanely powerful and dynamic. He also jackals like an openside, which is rather useful. Cyril Baille is a very good ball carrier for France without being a giant too. Maybe that's a sign of where ball carrying expectations for props are heading in itself though? Baille is basically their set-piece specialist LH but he's a quality carrier. Which is still a shift compared to the previous generations of set-piece props like Coley. Opoku-Fordjour looks like that more modern style of set-piece prop who still carries very well.

I do feel that Prem clubs are starting to give the bigger units more time in the U24 'academy cap' to develop. So it does feel there's been a response to how the game's changing. It might just take time to bear fruit.

Yeah the 'development cap' or whatever does seem to be getting more use. Getting the players meaningful game time is always the tough one as with no A league it's really only PRC and whatever loan move you can find. Props are such a valuable resource being able to generate your own as opposed to entering a saturated shopping market will be preferable.

Former England under 20 Tim Hoyt is off on loan in Australia as Tigers couldn't get him consistent game time in the UK. Archie van der Flier who they did get game time (and is English) got Notts young player of the season (LH, 6ft4 and 19 stone only 21). So if you can get the game time the development pathway does work.

by Poorfour Tue 21 May 2024, 12:54 pm

For props in particular, getting experience in the Championship or other leagues outside the Prem has long been part of the maturation process. I've not seen him in action myself but other Quins fans are expecting Will Hobson to step up to the senior squad as a TH next season after a very good dual registration year.

by Geordie Tue 21 May 2024, 6:38 pm

Im still not convinced you have to have absolutely massive props. 6' 1 and around 18-19 stone is a big unit..especially if they can scrummage properly. There's a lot of young props on their way through, of all a sizes..but there are some big units amongst them...and some will add some weight naturally....

Tighthead
Fordjour - .5'11, 18 stone 2
Fasogabon - 6'4, 20 stone 7
Sela - 6'4, 18st 3
Harper - 6'3, 18 stone 2

Loosehead
Baxter - 6'1, 18 stone 1
Iyogun - 6'3, 18 stone 7
Haffar - 6'1, 18st 2
Brantingham - 6', 18st 6

Aa long as a few of those really push on we'll be in good shape.

by WELL-PAST-IT Tue 21 May 2024, 7:23 pm

Geordie wrote:Im still not convinced you have to have absolutely massive props. 6' 1 and around 18-19 stone is a big unit..especially if they can scrummage properly. There's a lot of young props on their way through, of all a sizes..but there are some big units amongst them...and some will add some weight naturally....

Tighthead
Iyogun - 6'3, 18 stone 7
Fordjour - .5'11, 18 stone 2
Fasogabon - 6'4, 20 stone 7
Sela - 6'4, 18st 3
Harper - 6'3, 18 stone 2

Loosehead
Baxter - 6'1, 18 stone 1
Haffar - 6'1, 18st 2
Brantingham - 6', 18st 6

Aa long as a few of those really push on we'll be in good shape.

Last time I looked Manny Iyogun was a Loosie.

He played most of his early rugby in the back row, only converted to LH a few years ago, so only 3 or 4 years experience; must be a fast learner. Bright as well he is studying a joint-honours Law and Criminology degree.

by Geordie Tue 21 May 2024, 7:28 pm

Why did I think he was a tight head.

Change made.

by king_carlos Tue 21 May 2024, 7:39 pm

Poorfour wrote:For props in particular, getting experience in the Championship or other leagues outside the Prem has long been part of the maturation process. I've not seen him in action myself but other Quins fans are expecting Will Hobson to step up to the senior squad as a TH next season after a very good dual registration year.

I do feel the Championship being a bit of a disaster, even compared to the Prem, at the minute is an issue there. That jump from Champ to Prem is absolutely gigantic. Then the jump from Prem to international is similar. You want a system designed to get those jumps as small as possible. More like the French system where you've got academy, U20s, Espoirs (age restrictions and a very good development tool), ProD2 (fully pro), Top 14, international. Whereas in England currently there's academy, U20s, nat leagues (actually do a reasonable job IMO), Championship (full f***ed), Prem (significantly f***ed).

It's so frustrating that they buggered the A-league and professionalising the Championship. A proper A-league to keep the 18 to 21-year-old talent playing, then a higher standard Championship where they acclimatise to men's rugby, then a Prem closer to its peak would be a really good pathway. What could have been.

The Championship faltering may well hit props harder than other positions though. Just because they can develop later.

by king_carlos Tue 21 May 2024, 7:46 pm

Geordie wrote:Im still not convinced you have to have absolutely massive props. 6' 1 and around 18-19 stone is a big unit..especially if they can scrummage properly. There's a lot of young props on their way through, of all a sizes..but there are some big units amongst them...and some will add some weight naturally....

I don't think it's a necessity, but it certainly helps with carrying. I do feel that we may see props who can carry become more of a necessity than a luxury.

As said a few times, I think the parallels to fullback shifting towards being a second fly-half are interesting. Defences have got so much better, so coaches increasingly need a second playmaker. Not a centre or fullback who can throw a miss pass. A genuine second fly-half. The most obvious spot for that is fullback. Hence the shift in that direction.

I'm curious if similar will happen with props and ball carrying. Defences are still getting better, so getting over the gain line is harder and harder. That necessitates more carriers. 12 has shifted a bit towards that in the backs already - de Allende, Aki, Danty, J Barrett. If more brute force carriers in the pack becomes a necessity rather than a luxury, like the second playmaker is becoming a necessity, then prop does make a lot of sense as a position to stack carriers. Particularly with the trend of props playing 60 minutes max for the best teams.

You don't need to be massive to get over the gain line. It's bloody useful against a set international fringe defence though!

by Geordie Tue 21 May 2024, 9:25 pm

Oh I definitely understand what your saying KC....carriers are essential...even at prem level I understand rhat being a falcon...we have very few and it's clear the issue that causes.

As Sam said earlier also...a prop with great hands is another means of unlocking defences, as Mako was used so well...and Rodd potentially could be...but I'm yet to be convinced he will make it at the top level.

by Poorfour Tue 21 May 2024, 9:47 pm

king_carlos wrote:

I do feel the Championship being a bit of a disaster, even compared to the Prem, at the minute is an issue there. That jump from Champ to Prem is absolutely gigantic. Then the jump from Prem to international is similar. You want a system designed to get those jumps as small as possible. More like the French system where you've got academy, U20s, Espoirs (age restrictions and a very good development tool), ProD2 (fully pro), Top 14, international. Whereas in England currently there's academy, U20s, nat leagues (actually do a reasonable job IMO), Championship (full f***ed), Prem (significantly f***ed).

It's so frustrating that they buggered the A-league and professionalising the Championship. A proper A-league to keep the 18 to 21-year-old talent playing, then a higher standard Championship where they acclimatise to men's rugby, then a Prem closer to its peak would be a really good pathway. What could have been.

The Championship faltering may well hit props harder than other positions though. Just because they can develop later.

Wishes, horses, sort of thing.

We've got to do the best we can with what's available. If I look at how the next generation of props are coming through compared to the previous one, I'm encouraged. We've seen a lot of the names above playing at a very high level (if not quite International) this year, and most of them have looked ready for it so something is working. One thing I think is happening is that clubs are managing their introduction more carefully than happened in previous years, so they are not being given serious game time until they are physically ready.

There's also the first generation of former pro props doing the coaching, and the signs are that they are better at it than their predecessors.

by king_carlos Wed 22 May 2024, 1:06 am

Geordie wrote:Oh I definitely understand what your saying KC....carriers are essential...even at prem level I understand rhat being a falcon...we have very few and it's clear the issue that causes.

As Sam said earlier also...a prop with great hands is another means of unlocking defences, as Mako was used so well...and Rodd potentially could be...but I'm yet to be convinced he will make it at the top level.

Mako was also immense at getting over the gain line in his prime though. Great hands, no doubt, but his greatest strength as a carrier was carrying. He was up there as the best ball carrying prop in rugby for a period as well as having insane defensive output. It's what England did so well in the 2015 and 2016 period, they just beat the s**t out of sides around the fringes on attack and defence. Mako and Billy leading the carrying off 9 in attack. Then Gustard's blitz in defence which was relentless with its line speed near the ruck. Rassie took something similar and evolved it with players that suited it perfectly.

Poorfour wrote:There's also the first generation of former pro props doing the coaching, and the signs are that they are better at it than their predecessors.

A very good point. Rugby is still such a young sport professionally in the scheme of things.

by king_carlos Wed 22 May 2024, 2:06 am

The first squad is due on Sunday but it won't include any of the semi-finalists as is usually the case for summer tours. Then the losing semi-finalists and finalist will be added in subsequent weeks. That first squad is always just a training group which many players drop out of.

Taking out Saints, Bath, Sale and Sarries players affects some positions more than others. LH is still very strong. Second row with Chessum injured looks bare bones. It's usually a smaller squad though, so many positions might only carry a couple of players until others are available. Maybe something like below.

1.Genge, Marler, Baxter
2.Walker, Blamire
3.Cole, Heyes
4.Tuima
5.Martin
6.Roots, Fisilau
7.Pepper, Evans
8.CCS, Dombrandt

9.JvP, Randall
10.M Smith, C Atkinson

11.Murley, Hodge
12.S Atkinson
13.Slade, Beard
14.IFW, Radwan
15.Steward, Malins

A lot of guesswork from looking at previous training squads and the 23 for the farcically organised England A vs Portugal game. There's just so many players absent. As is often the case with this first squad, you can probably make a stronger team from the absentees.

1.Obano 2.George 3.Stuart 4.Itoje 5.Coles 6.Pearson 7.Underhill 8.Earl
9.Mitchell 10.Ford 11.Roebuck 12.Dingwall 13.Lawrence 14.Freeman 15.Furbank

16.Dan 17.Rodd 18.Davison 19.Isiekwe 20.Barbeary 21.Quirke 22.F Smith 23.Daly

There's a few not even included there who will be in contention too. Langdon. LCD. Ted Hill. Ojomoh. Curry's. Haffar. Iyogun. Hendy. Sleightholme. Muir.

by Geordie Wed 22 May 2024, 8:09 am

king_carlos wrote:
Geordie wrote:Oh I definitely understand what your saying KC....carriers are essential...even at prem level I understand rhat being a falcon...we have very few and it's clear the issue that causes.

As Sam said earlier also...a prop with great hands is another means of unlocking defences, as Mako was used so well...and Rodd potentially could be...but I'm yet to be convinced he will make it at the top level.

Mako was also immense at getting over the gain line in his prime though. Great hands, no doubt, but his greatest strength as a carrier was carrying. He was up there as the best ball carrying prop in rugby for a period as well as having insane defensive output. It's what England did so well in the 2015 and 2016 period, they just beat the s**t out of sides around the fringes on attack and defence. Mako and Billy leading the carrying off 9 in attack. Then Gustard's blitz in defence which was relentless with its line speed near the ruck. Rassie took something similar and evolved it with players that suited it perfectly.

Poorfour wrote:There's also the first generation of former pro props doing the coaching, and the signs are that they are better at it than their predecessors.

A very good point. Rugby is still such a young sport professionally in the scheme of things.

Without doubt he was. But again he was 5'11 and 19 stone...smaller and not much heavier than what our young gen coming through are now without the bulk they will probably add naturally over the next few years. We just need to make sure that whilst focusing on their core skills...scrummaging etc...they also expand to carry well. Some of them do already.

by Geordie Wed 22 May 2024, 8:15 am

king_carlos wrote:The first squad is due on Sunday but it won't include any of the semi-finalists as is usually the case for summer tours. Then the losing semi-finalists and finalist will be added in subsequent weeks. That first squad is always just a training group which many players drop out of.

Taking out Saints, Bath, Sale and Sarries players affects some positions more than others. LH is still very strong. Second row with Chessum injured looks bare bones. It's usually a smaller squad though, so many positions might only carry a couple of players until others are available. Maybe something like below.

1.Genge, Marler, Baxter
2.Walker, Blamire
3.Cole, Heyes
4.Tuima
5.Martin
6.Roots, Fisilau
7.Pepper, Evans
8.CCS, Dombrandt

9.JvP, Randall
10.M Smith, C Atkinson

11.Murley, Hodge
12.S Atkinson
13.Slade, Beard
14.IFW, Radwan
15.Steward, Malins

A lot of guesswork from looking at previous training squads and the 23 for the farcically organised England A vs Portugal game. There's just so many players absent. As is often the case with this first squad, you can probably make a stronger team from the absentees.

1.Obano 2.George 3.Stuart 4.Itoje 5.Coles 6.Pearson 7.Underhill 8.Earl
9.Mitchell 10.Ford 11.Roebuck 12.Dingwall 13.Lawrence 14.Freeman 15.Furbank

16.Dan 17.Rodd 18.Davison 19.Isiekwe 20.Barbeary 21.Quirke 22.F Smith 23.Daly

There's a few not even included there who will be in contention too. Langdon. LCD. Ted Hill. Ojomoh. Curry's. Haffar. Iyogun. Hendy. Sleightholme. Muir.

Shame Olly Hartley did his ACL the other week...might have been a perfect time for SB and his team to have a look.

by king_carlos Wed 22 May 2024, 12:06 pm

Geordie wrote:
king_carlos wrote:The first squad is due on Sunday but it won't include any of the semi-finalists as is usually the case for summer tours. Then the losing semi-finalists and finalist will be added in subsequent weeks. That first squad is always just a training group which many players drop out of.

Taking out Saints, Bath, Sale and Sarries players affects some positions more than others. LH is still very strong. Second row with Chessum injured looks bare bones. It's usually a smaller squad though, so many positions might only carry a couple of players until others are available. Maybe something like below.

1.Genge, Marler, Baxter
2.Walker, Blamire
3.Cole, Heyes
4.Tuima
5.Martin
6.Roots, Fisilau
7.Pepper, Evans
8.CCS, Dombrandt

9.JvP, Randall
10.M Smith, C Atkinson

11.Murley, Hodge
12.S Atkinson
13.Slade, Beard
14.IFW, Radwan
15.Steward, Malins

A lot of guesswork from looking at previous training squads and the 23 for the farcically organised England A vs Portugal game. There's just so many players absent. As is often the case with this first squad, you can probably make a stronger team from the absentees.

1.Obano 2.George 3.Stuart 4.Itoje 5.Coles 6.Pearson 7.Underhill 8.Earl
9.Mitchell 10.Ford 11.Roebuck 12.Dingwall 13.Lawrence 14.Freeman 15.Furbank

16.Dan 17.Rodd 18.Davison 19.Isiekwe 20.Barbeary 21.Quirke 22.F Smith 23.Daly

There's a few not even included there who will be in contention too. Langdon. LCD. Ted Hill. Ojomoh. Curry's. Haffar. Iyogun. Hendy. Sleightholme. Muir.

Shame Olly Hartley did his ACL the other week...might have been a perfect time for SB and his team to have a look.

He'd be with Sarries this first week anyway. Even if he doesn't make the 23, he wouldn't be released. Decent young player.

Honestly, I think I intended to put Kelly as the second 12 there then overlooked it. Dingwall and Ojomoh will be with their clubs. Kelly mostly had a rubbish season but improved a bit towards the end. With so many out, he might make this initial squad.

by king_carlos Wed 22 May 2024, 12:16 pm

Geordie wrote:
king_carlos wrote:
Geordie wrote:Oh I definitely understand what your saying KC....carriers are essential...even at prem level I understand rhat being a falcon...we have very few and it's clear the issue that causes.

As Sam said earlier also...a prop with great hands is another means of unlocking defences, as Mako was used so well...and Rodd potentially could be...but I'm yet to be convinced he will make it at the top level.

Mako was also immense at getting over the gain line in his prime though. Great hands, no doubt, but his greatest strength as a carrier was carrying. He was up there as the best ball carrying prop in rugby for a period as well as having insane defensive output. It's what England did so well in the 2015 and 2016 period, they just beat the s**t out of sides around the fringes on attack and defence. Mako and Billy leading the carrying off 9 in attack. Then Gustard's blitz in defence which was relentless with its line speed near the ruck. Rassie took something similar and evolved it with players that suited it perfectly.

Poorfour wrote:There's also the first generation of former pro props doing the coaching, and the signs are that they are better at it than their predecessors.

A very good point. Rugby is still such a young sport professionally in the scheme of things.

Without doubt he was. But again he was 5'11 and 19 stone...smaller and not much heavier than what our young gen coming through are now without the bulk they will probably add naturally over the next few years. We just need to make sure that whilst focusing on their core skills...scrummaging etc...they also expand to carry well. Some of them do already.

Back when Mako broke through, 19 stone was one of the bigger props though. Whereas they keep getting bigger, whilst being insanely mobile. Mako is just prop sized now, certainly not an outlier.

Similar with Furlong. When he first came through he was a clear standout due to his size whilst being mobile. In that QF, 3 of the 4 NZ props were significantly bigger whilst still being great in the loose.

These monsters are becoming more common. I'm interested to see if it keeps trending that way.

by Geordie Wed 22 May 2024, 12:19 pm

king_carlos wrote:
Geordie wrote:
king_carlos wrote:The first squad is due on Sunday but it won't include any of the semi-finalists as is usually the case for summer tours. Then the losing semi-finalists and finalist will be added in subsequent weeks. That first squad is always just a training group which many players drop out of.

Taking out Saints, Bath, Sale and Sarries players affects some positions more than others. LH is still very strong. Second row with Chessum injured looks bare bones. It's usually a smaller squad though, so many positions might only carry a couple of players until others are available. Maybe something like below.

1.Genge, Marler, Baxter
2.Walker, Blamire
3.Cole, Heyes
4.Tuima
5.Martin
6.Roots, Fisilau
7.Pepper, Evans
8.CCS, Dombrandt

9.JvP, Randall
10.M Smith, C Atkinson

11.Murley, Hodge
12.S Atkinson
13.Slade, Beard
14.IFW, Radwan
15.Steward, Malins

A lot of guesswork from looking at previous training squads and the 23 for the farcically organised England A vs Portugal game. There's just so many players absent. As is often the case with this first squad, you can probably make a stronger team from the absentees.

1.Obano 2.George 3.Stuart 4.Itoje 5.Coles 6.Pearson 7.Underhill 8.Earl
9.Mitchell 10.Ford 11.Roebuck 12.Dingwall 13.Lawrence 14.Freeman 15.Furbank

16.Dan 17.Rodd 18.Davison 19.Isiekwe 20.Barbeary 21.Quirke 22.F Smith 23.Daly

There's a few not even included there who will be in contention too. Langdon. LCD. Ted Hill. Ojomoh. Curry's. Haffar. Iyogun. Hendy. Sleightholme. Muir.

Shame Olly Hartley did his ACL the other week...might have been a perfect time for SB and his team to have a look.

He'd be with Sarries this first week anyway. Even if he doesn't make the 23, he wouldn't be released. Decent young player.

Honestly, I think I intended to put Kelly as the second 12 there then overlooked it. Dingwall and Ojomoh will be with their clubs. Kelly mostly had a rubbish season but improved a bit towards the end. With so many out, he might make this initial squad.

Of course i completely missed that.

by Mr Bounce Fri 24 May 2024, 11:48 am

Just seen that Ellis Genge has been ruled out of the summer tour.

by Mr Bounce Fri 24 May 2024, 1:38 pm

by formerly known as Sam Fri 24 May 2024, 2:09 pm

Big blow to lose our best loosehead for the summer tour but chance for Baxter and Obano to step up.

by king_carlos Fri 24 May 2024, 4:20 pm

A shame as Genge had a good Six Nations on the whole.

I'm expecting Marler to tour. He's said that he'll be available if picked, which I suspect he will be.

I'm also excited to see Baxter get a go. He'd be narrowly ahead of Rodd and Obano from the less experienced options for me.

In the Six Nations they seemed to largely use the props as pairings once Genge returned from injury. From R2 onwards it was either Genge/Cole or Marler/Stuart as a pairing. The only time they weren't changed as a pair was when Stuart came on 6 minutes before Marler against Scotland. It was largely one set-piece prop with a big defensive work rate, one prop who carried more. Genge being injured will break that up and it will be interesting to see what balance they look for. The only period they didn't have one better carrier on at a time was in R1 when Cole replaced Stuart. Obano wasn't brought on until very late, so Marler and Cole partnered there for 20 minutes. Only 20 minutes across 400 though.

It felt notable that they were trying to get Stuart carrying off 9 far more. We're more accustomed to Genge carrying often. If they are shifting towards a phase play based attack more akin to Ireland's then having lots of capable carriers is imperative. Having 6 or 7 very decent carriers in their starting pack with a few more on the bench is the heartbeat of that phase play. Having so many options that JGP can hit to get over the gain line is what makes them tick.

by mikey_dragon Fri 24 May 2024, 4:47 pm

Finally, an interview to confirm how Hathaway is eligible. His parents are Welsh, but he also had an English granny on his father’s side. His dad also played for Wales U19. I think that might be an indication of who he chooses at international level - for now he remains eligible for both England and Wales.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-13453217/amp/Gloucester-star-Josh-Hathaway-discusses-breakthrough-season-international-rugby-dream-pinch-moment-Fridays-European-Challenge-Cup-final-Tottenham-Hotspur-Stadium.html

by Geordie Fri 24 May 2024, 8:48 pm

king_carlos wrote:A shame as Genge had a good Six Nations on the whole.

I'm expecting Marler to tour. He's said that he'll be available if picked, which I suspect he will be.

I'm also excited to see Baxter get a go. He'd be narrowly ahead of Rodd and Obano from the less experienced options for me.

In the Six Nations they seemed to largely use the props as pairings once Genge returned from injury. From R2 onwards it was either Genge/Cole or Marler/Stuart as a pairing. The only time they weren't changed as a pair was when Stuart came on 6 minutes before Marler against Scotland. It was largely one set-piece prop with a big defensive work rate, one prop who carried more. Genge being injured will break that up and it will be interesting to see what balance they look for. The only period they didn't have one better carrier on at a time was in R1 when Cole replaced Stuart. Obano wasn't brought on until very late, so Marler and Cole partnered there for 20 minutes. Only 20 minutes across 400 though.

It felt notable that they were trying to get Stuart carrying off 9 far more. We're more accustomed to Genge carrying often. If they are shifting towards a phase play based attack more akin to Ireland's then having lots of capable carriers is imperative. Having 6 or 7 very decent carriers in their starting pack with a few more on the bench is the heartbeat of that phase play. Having so many options that JGP can hit to get over the gain line is what makes them tick.

Stuart carried more than I have ever seen him carry and to be fair to him at times he was doing a good job makong some headway in heavy traffic.

If he can continue he could be a valuable member of the team / squad...

by formerly known as Sam Fri 24 May 2024, 8:58 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:Finally, an interview to confirm how Hathaway is eligible. His parents are Welsh, but he also had an English granny on his father’s side. His dad also played for Wales U19. I think that might be an indication of who he chooses at international level - for now he remains eligible for both England and Wales.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-13453217/amp/Gloucester-star-Josh-Hathaway-discusses-breakthrough-season-international-rugby-dream-pinch-moment-Fridays-European-Challenge-Cup-final-Tottenham-Hotspur-Stadium.html

England have plenty of wingers to pick from, he's about as close to selection as I am currently. If he fills out a bit and has a good season next year then maybe next summer. He's rapid which is always handy.

by formerly known as Sam Fri 24 May 2024, 9:00 pm

king_carlos wrote:A shame as Genge had a good Six Nations on the whole.

I'm expecting Marler to tour. He's said that he'll be available if picked, which I suspect he will be.

I'm also excited to see Baxter get a go. He'd be narrowly ahead of Rodd and Obano from the less experienced options for me.

In the Six Nations they seemed to largely use the props as pairings once Genge returned from injury. From R2 onwards it was either Genge/Cole or Marler/Stuart as a pairing. The only time they weren't changed as a pair was when Stuart came on 6 minutes before Marler against Scotland. It was largely one set-piece prop with a big defensive work rate, one prop who carried more. Genge being injured will break that up and it will be interesting to see what balance they look for. The only period they didn't have one better carrier on at a time was in R1 when Cole replaced Stuart. Obano wasn't brought on until very late, so Marler and Cole partnered there for 20 minutes. Only 20 minutes across 400 though.

It felt notable that they were trying to get Stuart carrying off 9 far more. We're more accustomed to Genge carrying often. If they are shifting towards a phase play based attack more akin to Ireland's then having lots of capable carriers is imperative. Having 6 or 7 very decent carriers in their starting pack with a few more on the bench is the heartbeat of that phase play. Having so many options that JGP can hit to get over the gain line is what makes them tick.

Baxter's in the better form (and is the better scrummager) but Obano or Rodd are more like for like replacements for Genge in that style of propping partnership. Obano in that he's good at a destructive carry but Rodd is our most skillful prop, if we want to play off a ball carrier like we did with Mako and Sincks under Eddie then Rodd would offer that.

by Geordie Fri 24 May 2024, 10:22 pm

Theo Dan might take a more prominent role as a carrier
If they are struggling.

It'll be Marler, Baxter and one of Obano or Rodd...
I've said I'm not sold on Rodd but if can prove solid at scrum time but offer alot in attack and around the park then I'd probably opt for him over Obano. Of course SB might throw a curve ball and give someone like Iyogun a call up.

by mikey_dragon Sat 25 May 2024, 2:28 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:Finally, an interview to confirm how Hathaway is eligible. His parents are Welsh, but he also had an English granny on his father’s side. His dad also played for Wales U19. I think that might be an indication of who he chooses at international level - for now he remains eligible for both England and Wales.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-13453217/amp/Gloucester-star-Josh-Hathaway-discusses-breakthrough-season-international-rugby-dream-pinch-moment-Fridays-European-Challenge-Cup-final-Tottenham-Hotspur-Stadium.html

England have plenty of wingers to pick from, he's about as close to selection as I am currently. If he fills out a bit and has a good season next year then maybe next summer. He's rapid which is always handy.

Agree he probably isn’ quite there yet. We lost Feyi-Waboso and he’s pretty good, I wouldn’t want to risk it with Hathaway.

by Geordie Sat 25 May 2024, 2:38 pm

Hathaway looks like a FB for me going forward.
Pace, deceptively strong, good handling and good under the high ball.
He looks a Wales full back in the making

by king_carlos Sat 25 May 2024, 3:38 pm

Just a 20-man squad being named tomorrow according to the Torygraph. Even smaller than I was expecting. Taking a few out the squad I took a punt at earlier in the week.

1.Marler, Baxter
2.Blamire
3.Cole, Heyes
4.Tuima
5.Martin
6.Roots, Fisilau
7.Pepper
8.CCS, Dombrandt

9.JvP
10.M Smith

11.Murley
12.S Atkinson
13.Slade, Beard
14.IFW
15.Steward

Hooker, second row and 12 seem like the more interesting selection calls with players missing in those positions.

by formerly known as Sam Sat 25 May 2024, 5:39 pm

I'd take Seb Blake over Blamire personally. Better lineout work and Blake is a mobile unit.

by Geordie Sat 25 May 2024, 6:48 pm

I'd take Blake too. I don't think Blamire will develop the skills required.

Tuima and Martin alone in the second row would at least be one powerful combo... Very Happy

by **Rugby Fan** Sun 26 May 2024, 12:49 pm

Jack Willis has pundits talking again about his England prospects.

The question is, why would he return to the Premiership? Willis featured on last week's "For the Love of the Game" podcast. Both Ben Youngs and Dan Cole went out of their way to say how much they envied his opportunity to play with Toulouse. Willis is clearly revelling in the experience, and it sounds like his family are enjoying life too.

He's 27, has had several career-stopping injuries, and the stressful Wasps bankruptcy. If he stays with Toulouse, he has a decent contract, lifestyle, and an assured diet of high end club rugby. Everyone seems to think he the move to France has improved his game, so that's another factor.

The Top 14 calendar doesn't dovetail too well with the Lions itinerary but he could still win a place in the squad, which could go some way to satisfying short term international ambitions.

Jack Willis would probably love to play for England but the price he would have to pay might just be too high right now.

by mountain man Sun 26 May 2024, 12:56 pm

Willis was superb yesterday so inevitable talk will now be of him playing for England. Even if he moves back to an English club he'll have plenty of competition for a backrow spot as that is the one area England excell in regards strength in depth.

Would he walk back in if available? Not necessarily.

by king_carlos Sun 26 May 2024, 1:11 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:I'd take Seb Blake over Blamire personally. Better lineout work and Blake is a mobile unit.

Honestly overlooked him. He's had a very good season though, I'd probably take him over others such as Blamire or Walker.

My first three there are standouts and unavailable though. George and Dan are the incumbents. Then Langdon must surely get a go after the season he's just put it.

by Geordie Sun 26 May 2024, 8:32 pm

Prop
Fin Baxter (Harlequins)
Joe Heyes (Leicester Tigers),

Hooker
Gabriel Oghre (Bristol Bears),

Lock
George Martin (Leicester Tigers),
Rusi Tuima (Exeter Chiefs)

Back row
Guy Pepper (~~Newcastle Falcons~~ Bath),
Ethan Roots (Exeter Chiefs),
Chandler Cunningham-South (Harlequins),
Alex Dombrandt (Harlequins),
Greg Fisilau (Exeter Chiefs),

Sh
Jack van Poortvliet (Leicester Tigers
Harry Randall (Bristol Bears)

Fh
Charlie Atkinson (Gloucester Rugby),
Marcus Smith (Harlequins),

Centre
Luke Northmore (Harlequins),
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs),

Wing.
Immanuel Feyi-Waboso (Exeter Chiefs),

FB
Freddie Steward (Leicester Tigers),
Max Malins (Bristol Bears),

by mountain man Sun 26 May 2024, 9:39 pm

Good to see Randall in there.

by Geordie Sun 26 May 2024, 10:11 pm

Social media does make me laugh...everyone getting hot under the collar about omissions and how weak that squad is etc...

Erm really? It's a chance to look at a few players who might or might not offer something to the main squad...

by mountain man Sun 26 May 2024, 10:13 pm

Exactly. Players involved in premiership SF matches not involved for example.

by Geordie Sun 26 May 2024, 10:38 pm

Yeah..
I'm not a fan of Oghre but hey he's a mobile athletic hooker who seems to have his key skills sorted so why not check him out when you know many current options aren't up to it. I think this is the nail in the coffin for Walker and Blamire...and I wonder where Seb Blake sits with SBs thoughts.

by Flintoff05 Sun 26 May 2024, 10:52 pm

Geordie wrote:Yeah..
I'm not a fan of Oghre but hey he's a mobile athletic hooker who seems to have his key skills sorted so why not check him out when you know many current options aren't up to it. I think this is the nail in the coffin for Walker and Blamire...and I wonder where Seb Blake sits with SBs thoughts.

Or Joe Schmidt chin

by Geordie Mon 27 May 2024, 7:02 am

Good point.

by propdavid_london Tue 28 May 2024, 2:45 pm

Yes, its a training squad and not the tour squad yet - but it does give us a few hints at what the selectors might be thinking.

Jack Walker will be out (his recent form has been poor too)
No Will Evans - Unlikely to be selected if not being looked at now.

Disappointed to see VanPorfliet in there, presumably looking to assess him after lengthy injury.
And also Malins, thought we were moving away from the utility back option.

by Geordie Tue 28 May 2024, 3:06 pm

propdavid_london wrote:Yes, its a training squad and not the tour squad yet - but it does give us a few hints at what the selectors might be thinking.

Jack Walker will be out (his recent form has been poor too)
No Will Evans - Unlikely to be selected if not being looked at now.

Disappointed to see VanPorfliet in there, presumably looking to assess him after lengthy injury.
And also Malins, thought we were moving away from the utility back option.

Utility back or playmaking back?

Even as a playmaker im not sure hes international class.

by propdavid_london Tue 28 May 2024, 3:24 pm

I was thinking utility back - as in can cover whole back 3.
Either way - like yourself Geordie, I didn't think he was up to international level and was surprised to see that England we even still thinking of him as a tour squad contender.

Joe Heyes is another one that I am not sold on at that level - Decent enough in prem though. But there is limited stock at TH.
Has Cole officially retired from England duty?

by king_carlos Tue 28 May 2024, 3:29 pm

Cole and Marler are both available, have confirmed it themselves on podcasts. It could be that they've been allowed an extra weeks rest and will be in later training squads. These squads are always odd as you have players added in stages as the playoffs are done.

Heyes has stalled for a couple of years at Tigers. He was terrific in '21/22 as they won the title. He hasn't quite hit that standard consistently since IMO.

by Geordie Tue 28 May 2024, 3:31 pm

Hes a top prem player so maybe they just want to have another look at him in a more settled side who is developing its tactics.
With Daly etc all missing its not a bad idea to be fair.

Heyes doesnt seem to be really kicking on ..but hes still young really in terms of props and hes a big unit

Cole hasnt retired yet, maybe another season with Marler

by formerly known as Sam Tue 28 May 2024, 3:34 pm

propdavid_london wrote:
And also Malins, thought we were moving away from the utility back option.

Nah, Borthwick likes versatility in his players. Daly, Furbank, Freeman, M Smith, Lawrence all able to play in more than one position in the backline and all featured regularly in the 6N campaign.

by **Rugby Fan** Tue 28 May 2024, 3:49 pm

England supporters often seem to take against complete footballers like Daly and Malins.

It's a bit surprising, given that there is now a consensus that George Furbank might be a decent player after all.

Furbank was initially regarded as something of an Eddie Jones blind alley. Before the Six Nations squad was named, you could find people questioning the value of selecting Furbank because we already had a string of tens, and Steward was a lock at fifteen. Furbank seemed a bit like Malins, or even Alex Goode a few years earlier. Hard to see how he could add value in a particular position.

Sometimes, though, a good footballer may not have top end pace, or world-beating aerial skills but might just be the kind of player to bring the best out of others around him. Daly has proved his value to several international coaches over his career. Malins has done less at Test level but he was at the heart of Bristol's late charge. I don't mind having people like that around an England camp.

by mountain man Tue 28 May 2024, 4:02 pm

I've been critical of selection of Daly in past not because he's not a very good player, which he is but I believe there are better players available. He gets picked on wing when there are out and out better wings but maybe they dont have his all round abilities so in my mind he is a bit of a jack of all trades and not quite a master of any. Malins again was put on wing when FB is his best and preferred position.
Daly for Saracens has been superb most of this season but hever quite manages it in Eng shirt but that can be levelled at several players really.

by propdavid_london Tue 28 May 2024, 4:17 pm

Daly at least had other string to his bow (his long range kicking) and fairly decent speed all were complementary when he was first in the England set up (and subsequent Lions selection).
But when was the last time we saw him taking a kick beyond halfway! And like above - there have been better players more recently.
I kind of feel the same about Malins.

by **Rugby Fan** Tue 28 May 2024, 4:59 pm

propdavid_london wrote:Daly at least had other string to his bow (his long range kicking) and fairly decent speed all were complementary when he was first in the England set up (and subsequent Lions selection).
But when was the last time we saw him taking a kick beyond halfway! And like above - there have been better players more recently.
I kind of feel the same about Malins.

Against Ireland in the Six Nations in the 75th minute (though...err...he missed).

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