England - The Next Episode: Part Deux: Phoenix from the Ashes

First topic message reminder :

Net up...Summer Tour to NZ...and a game v Japan

Rugby Fan wrote:England supporters often seem to take against complete footballers like Daly and Malins.

It's a bit surprising, given that there is now a consensus that George Furbank might be a decent player after all.

Furbank was initially regarded as something of an Eddie Jones blind alley. Before the Six Nations squad was named, you could find people questioning the value of selecting Furbank because we already had a string of tens, and Steward was a lock at fifteen. Furbank seemed a bit like Malins, or even Alex Goode a few years earlier. Hard to see how he could add value in a particular position.

Sometimes, though, a good footballer may not have top end pace, or world-beating aerial skills but might just be the kind of player to bring the best out of others around him. Daly has proved his value to several international coaches over his career. Malins has done less at Test level but he was at the heart of Bristol's late charge. I don't mind having people like that around an England camp.

The issue is that they're not complete, at least in the roles that filled. Daly was fine on the wing or at outside centre, but was never secure enough under the high ball to give confidence as a fullback. Malins has a good bag of tricks but doesn't seem to be able to execute well enough at this level. We can see why coaches like them, and even what they are trying to do with them, but they don't fill us with enthusiasm when we see them on the teamsheet.

Furbank is a bit different in that he filled in well for Eddie as a 10, but clearly wasn't the long term answer given he doesn't play there much for Saints. He then had to get past Steward at 15 - and has now shown that he offers a better blend of fullback basics (including being a more mobile defender) and attacking creativity. He probably needs more time in the role, but he's done enough to earn that time.

From the DT......Here is a list of forwards from England’s World Cup squad who have suffered injury lay-offs of eight weeks or more this season: Ollie Chessum, George Martin, Ben Earl, Jack Willis, Tom Curry, Bevan Rodd and Lewis Ludlam. Ellis Genge, meanwhile, became the latest casualty last week after suffering a calf injury that rules him out of the tour to Japan and New Zealand.

That is an attrition rate that should be setting alarm bells ringing somewhere. Whether anyone is listening to them is another matter. The blasé attitude taken by the Rugby Football Union towards the prospect of Maro Itoje breaking a player welfare limit is concerning.

In a ten-team Premiership, it should be next to impossible for a player to exceed a limit of 35 match involvements or 30 full game equivalents (2400 minutes). It would be like setting the speed limit at 140mph. And even when they have been busted doing 147mph in the outside lane, the RFU seem to have just shrugged and said ‘well at least we were wearing a seatbelt.’

To suggest that it is fine because at least Itoje is not breaking both the 30 game full equivalent and the 35 game match involvements is a cynical if unconvincing attempt to shift the goalposts. It is amazing how player welfare is everyone’s No 1 concern right up until you really need a player to play in every minute of the business end of the season.

These limits exist for a very good reason, being based on the analysis by University of Bath which was published in the Journal of Science and Medicine in Sport. Its conclusion unequivocally stated that playing more than 30 games leads to a “significantly higher injury burden in the following season.” Yet here we are in a position that one of England’s true thoroughbreds is being flogged like a carthorse. And some people have wondered aloud why Itoje has not always shown his best form over the past 12 months. This is why.

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When Telegraph Sport noted that Itoje was on course to break the limit following the Six Nations, the RPA general secretary Christian Day stated: “At the end of the day, it does not benefit anyone, least of all the player, to be playing beyond the limits because they are set at the point where their risk of injury increases. These are the league’s prized jewels and you are putting them at risk.”

Inevitably, the problem lies between club and country. Phil Morrow, Saracens general manager, is widely seen as one of the best performance directors in the sport. So too Aled Walters with England. Both will minutely monitor Itoje’s training and game load. Day to day they have his best interests at heart. But ultimately one side needed to rest the 29-year-old for a one or two more games and chose not to. This is what happens when you balance a player’s best interests versus the team’s.

The proposed enhanced Elite Player Contracts should help in this matter to coordinate more holistic individual management plans. The real test will come in whether both parties can agree in advance which games a player will be rested for, particularly as next season the limit is set to be reduced to a total of 30 game involvements under the new Professional Game Partnership.

As the example of Itoje shows when push comes to shove, player welfare comes second.

Is there any comparison to what other countries players play.  I'm sure Irelands are amongst the best managed,  but I'm curious what others countries such as South Afirca, Australia,  France etc play...
I'm sure I read rhe South African players were hitting a lot of games.

My biggest issue with Malins is at prem level he looks a premium player and his speed of thought and action looks ahead of others on the pitch, but it seems to go out the window at international level and he seems to be in slow motion...and physically like he's running in quick sand...
Now maybe the whole set up just didn't suit him...and this new group with the tactics tweaked may suit him. Worth a try in this training sqaud anyway...nothing to lose

Malins I tend to see - perhaps unfairly - as similar to Alex Goode. He's a really good player at the pace of club rugby... but gets exposed at International level when the pace goes up a notch; there's less room for error in timing, and less room to exploit on the pitch, and I am not sure he has the right mix of vision and speed to adapt.

I'd be happy to be proven wrong, but I've not seen it from him and he's been holding a place in the squad where other players might have been able to make more of a difference. I'm thinking particularly of Murley not even being given a game in the RWC warm ups.

Malins had only looked the part vs weak opposition. Furbank wasn't great when first selected but seems to have sorted himself out, as Lawrence did before him.

With Malins I just haven't seen anything special at international level that demands selection. His only USP seems to be that flexibility.

hugehandoff wrote:From the DT......Here is a list of forwards from England’s World Cup squad who have suffered injury lay-offs of eight weeks or more this season: Ollie Chessum, George Martin, Ben Earl, Jack Willis, Tom Curry, Bevan Rodd and Lewis Ludlam. Ellis Genge, meanwhile, became the latest casualty last week after suffering a calf injury that rules him out of the tour to Japan and New Zealand.

That is an attrition rate that should be setting alarm bells ringing somewhere. Whether anyone is listening to them is another matter. The blasé attitude taken by the Rugby Football Union towards the prospect of Maro Itoje breaking a player welfare limit is concerning.

In a ten-team Premiership, it should be next to impossible for a player to exceed a limit of 35 match involvements or 30 full game equivalents (2400 minutes). It would be like setting the speed limit at 140mph. And even when they have been busted doing 147mph in the outside lane, the RFU seem to have just shrugged and said ‘well at least we were wearing a seatbelt.’

To suggest that it is fine because at least Itoje is not breaking both the 30 game full equivalent and the 35 game match involvements is a cynical if unconvincing attempt to shift the goalposts. It is amazing how player welfare is everyone’s No 1 concern right up until you really need a player to play in every minute of the business end of the season.

These limits exist for a very good reason, being based on the analysis by University of Bath which was published in the Journal of Science and Medicine in Sport. Its conclusion unequivocally stated that playing more than 30 games leads to a “significantly higher injury burden in the following season.” Yet here we are in a position that one of England’s true thoroughbreds is being flogged like a carthorse. And some people have wondered aloud why Itoje has not always shown his best form over the past 12 months. This is why.

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When Telegraph Sport noted that Itoje was on course to break the limit following the Six Nations, the RPA general secretary Christian Day stated: “At the end of the day, it does not benefit anyone, least of all the player, to be playing beyond the limits because they are set at the point where their risk of injury increases. These are the league’s prized jewels and you are putting them at risk.”

Inevitably, the problem lies between club and country. Phil Morrow, Saracens general manager, is widely seen as one of the best performance directors in the sport. So too Aled Walters with England. Both will minutely monitor Itoje’s training and game load. Day to day they have his best interests at heart. But ultimately one side needed to rest the 29-year-old for a one or two more games and chose not to. This is what happens when you balance a player’s best interests versus the team’s.

The proposed enhanced Elite Player Contracts should help in this matter to coordinate more holistic individual management plans. The real test will come in whether both parties can agree in advance which games a player will be rested for, particularly as next season the limit is set to be reduced to a total of 30 game involvements under the new Professional Game Partnership.

As the example of Itoje shows when push comes to shove, player welfare comes second.

This is a great post.  But for me it's another case of no one really wants to take player safety seriously (despite lots of psychobabble, especially by the old guard medical types who still think they know something).  We all know the rights and wrongs of this situation.  And there are a number of docs with the right experience and pedigree who have been pushing to lower and then actually enforce the player limits.  To me 30 game equivalents, the 2400 minutes, is f^cking nuts.  I think if the RFU lets Itoje exceed the agreed limits and he decides to go ahead and play, then the player (who undoubtedly knows the rules he could be breaking) as well as the leadership within England Rugby and the RFU should all be punished severely or fired.  Otherwise what is the deterrent? Is there an adult in the room?

This is a great post.  But for me it's another case of no one really wants to take player safety seriously (despite lots of psychobabble, especially by the old guard medical types who still think they know something).  We all know the rights and wrongs of this situation.  And there are a number of docs with the right experience and pedigree who have been pushing to lower and then actually enforce the player limits.  To me 30 game equivalents, the 2400 minutes, is f^cking nuts.  I think if the RFU lets Itoje exceed the agreed limits and he decides to go ahead and play, then the player (who undoubtedly knows the rules he could be breaking) as well as the leadership within England Rugby and the RFU should all be punished severely or fired.  Otherwise what is the deterrent?  Is there an adult in the room?[/quote]

For me it seems pretty obvious that players like Itoje, and he is not the only one, have been flogged way too much and it has shown in some of his performances. He clearly needs the summer off and to then recondition and enjoy a full pre-season. That way he will have the chance to return to his best and to prolong his career. I think he may be his own worst enemy in that he always wants to play. But time for the adults to step up. Since the last Lions tour he has not had a break with a summer Aus tour and then the RWC. Mentally and physically he needs to rest. We can then see how others perform against the mighty ABs. Martin and Ewels? But the summer tour is just another summer tour and is not the main objective and therefore some common sense should come in to play. I am sure it won't and Maro will enjoy an 8 week break probably during the Autumn Internationals when he is rehabbing from injury.

Well I've said this before that key players like Itoje need a break and summer tour is ideal opportunity to do that plus see how new caps go. For me a summer tour is the least important of all, behind AIs and of course 6N so a loss not end of world plus realistically even with 1st XV put out if all fit, NZ away a massive ask. Obviously players, coaches and fans want to win every game but some realism needs to be seen. Give those that need it a break, give new caps a go and use tour to give experience and build for autumn onwards.

Ah its a short career...let them earn their money

Geordie wrote:Ah its a short career...let them earn their money

So with that in mind what's your stance on Eng qualified players abroad? Should RFU alter law to allow Eng to select anyone or should they keep as is which is what club DORs agree with?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/articles/c8991jw3dd3o

My opinion is keep as it is. Players know the score when signing for a French club so if they chose money then fine they don't play for Eng.

Jeez it was a feckin joke....find your sense of humour man!

And no...if players are abroad they SHOULD NOT play for England ....they know the crack.

Easy tiger, I know you were joking from the emojis!

However my point about overseas players was a genuine question.

Maybe it's you who needs to lighten up?

No im fine thanks

No players who move abroad should not play for England, the already weak league will be come far worse

Yeah well my sense of humour alive and well but thanks for the concern.

Also I ask a perfectly reasonable question seeing as it's a hot topic about picking overseas based players and getting accused of no sense of humour? Not sure where that comes from

Anyway it seems that a few of us are agreed that player welfare comes before a summer tour AND that foreign based players should not be eligible for England. The prem needs protecting.

hugehandoff wrote:Anyway it seems that a few of us are agreed that player welfare comes before a summer tour AND that foreign based players should not be eligible for England. The prem needs protecting.  

No disagreement here. Player welfare is always the top priority.

Ben Earl is on the Good, Bad Rugby this week. Jonny May is becoming a regular on that podcast, and also appears. The two men get on well, so they talk quite freely.



For reference, here's the YouTube topic menu. The England conversations start around the 22:30 mark.

0:01 - Show Starts
2:14 - Investec Champions Cup Final
5:34 - Players abroad
11:13 - Leinster - An issue?
12:55 - How do the English team compete?
14:00 - Challenge Cup Final
17:58 - Tottenham Stadium
22:30 - Jonny & Ben
25:10 - Ben on life under Eddie
29:00 - Early pressure
35:10 - Ben’s last 18 months
40:25 - Celebrations
50:11 - Journey with England
58:44 - England vs New Zealand
1:06:22 - Premiership Play-offs Preview
1:08:10 - Ben on Courtney Lawes

Ben Earl said one of the worst things to happen in his career was getting into the U18 England team. He thinks he started to get complacent, and feel that everything was going to be handed to him on a plate. He was at boarding school, which he says meant he never really had to do anything for himself.

Neither player criticized Eddie Jones but they did say players have more downtime at England camps under Steve Borthwick. Jones ran a high stress environment, where everyone felt like they had to be constantly on.

George Ford is this week's guest with Ben Youngs and Dan Cole on their podcast.

He's clearly regarded by both hosts as a very insightful player, who is constantly looking at ways to make a team better. He talks about how important it is to commit to a team strategy, even if it's not one you privately prefer. He also mentions the balance between focusing on his own performance, and trying to raise standards across the whole team.

Talking about that England World Cup pool game against Argentina, Dan Cole said he doesn't think England would have won if Ford hadn't been on the pitch. He had absolute clarity about what was needed. It's interesting hearing about drop goals. Ford says teams used to practice drop goal drills, but they are less useful nowadays, as the opposition can spot them.

Against Argentina, he decided on his own when to kick. His team mates couldn't signal to the opposition what was coming, as they didn't know either. His thinking was that England needed to build a score, and would likely get possession back from a Pumas drop-out if he missed.

Rugby Fan wrote:George Ford is this week's guest with Ben Youngs and Dan Cole on their podcast.

He's clearly regarded by both hosts as a very insightful player, who is constantly looking at ways to make a team better. He talks about how important it is to commit to a team strategy, even if it's not one you privately prefer. He also mentions the balance between focusing on his own performance, and trying to raise standards across the whole team.

Talking about that England World Cup pool game against Argentina, Dan Cole said he doesn't think England would have won if Ford hadn't been on the pitch. He had absolute clarity about what was needed. It's interesting hearing about drop goals. Ford says teams used to practice drop goal drills, but they are less useful nowadays, as the opposition can spot them.

Against Argentina, he decided on his own when to kick. His team mates couldn't signal to the opposition what was coming, as they didn't know either. His thinking was that England needed to build a score, and would likely get possession back from a Pumas drop-out if he missed.

I'd put good money on George becoming a very good coach when he retires. Very much the thinking man's rugby player. Some rumours that he's already the defacto Sale attack/backs coach.

With regards to England this Semi final really feels like the old guard leaving amd the new crew marching through....

Real end of an era stuff for Sarries. It will feel like a completely different side without Faz and Vunipola's x 2. Even Lewington has sneakily played 130 games for them though. Goode is slowing down too even if he'll be there next season.

I was honestly surprised they started Mako in particular. Mawi is a terrific LH. Billy too when McFarland is riding the bench.

It will be fascinating to see how McCall rebuilds. He's the best coach in the Prem for my money. Burke, Johnson, Brantingham, Carre and Spink are all typically smart signings. I'm expecting them to look for a significant upgrade on Davies and van Zyl at 9 given they won't be loading as much decision making on Farrell anymore.

There's a few Saints there who would've played their last game too had they lost. Lawes, Ludlam, Moon, Waller.

Looking at outgoings vs incomings, I can't shake the feeling that most Prem clubs are looking weaker for next season

Tom Curry back on the bench for Sale I've just noticed. Brilliant to see after what sounded like an awful hip injury to recover from.

king_carlos wrote:Tom Curry back on the bench for Sale I've just noticed. Brilliant to see after what sounded like an awful hip injury to recover from.

And put some thumping hits in....

king_carlos wrote:Real end of an era stuff for Sarries. It will feel like a completely different side without Faz and Vunipola's x 2. Even Lewington has sneakily played 130 games for them though. Goode is slowing down too even if he'll be there next season.

I was honestly surprised they started Mako in particular. Mawi is a terrific LH. Billy too when McFarland is riding the bench.

It will be fascinating to see how McCall rebuilds. He's the best coach in the Prem for my money. Burke, Johnson, Brantingham, Carre and Spink are all typically smart signings. I'm expecting them to look for a significant upgrade on Davies and van Zyl at 9 given they won't be loading as much decision making on Farrell anymore.

There's a few Saints there who would've played their last game too had they lost. Lawes, Ludlam, Moon, Waller.

Looking at outgoings vs incomings, I can't shake the feeling that most Prem clubs are looking weaker for next season

Some teams yes I agree,  Saracens will have to rebukkd etc but others have strengthened...not necessarily with players but with style...

Ie Saints had the offence but were dire defensively...they fixed rhat now and are a strong side...the likes of Trev Davison etc has really helped them at scrum time aswell...

Bath...for so a team that flattered ro deceive have that solidity about them now...a really strong spine and some players with steel...Ted Hill, Underhill,  Du toit rtc etc...

Exeter in a rebuild and probably ahead of schedule

So some teams are getting stronger.
Hell I hold a quiet hope that as the bottom dwellers even we "should" be stronger if only that we'll be more physical and hopefully more drilled.

king_carlos wrote:
Looking at outgoings vs incomings, I can't shake the feeling that most Prem clubs are looking weaker for next season

But early for evaluation really, I reckon they'll be a few more incomings for most teams. The TV deal reduction and uncertainty over Euro TV money doesn't help matters.

There's also been quite a few excellent youngsters come through across the league who will all now be looking at contract renewals and pay rises.

Sarries and Sale players added along with Marler and Cole returning. Both Curry's back. Daly misses out though.

It will change a lot again after the Prem final, but below's the 33-man training squad in positions:

1.Baxter, Marler, Rodd
2.George, Dan, Oghre
3.Cole, Heyes
4.Itoje, Tuima
5.Martin, Isiekwe
6.T Curry, Roots
7.Earl, B Curry
8.CCS, Dombrandt, Fisilau, T Willis

9.JvP, Quirke, Randall
10.Ford, M Smith, Atkinson

11.Roebuck
12.Northmore
13.Slade
14.IFW
15.Steward, Malins, Carpenter

An absolute butt load of number 8s there but most can cover 6.

Very light in the backs but there's a lot of Saints and Bath players who will presumably be added. Mitchell, Finn Smith, Lawrence, Freeman and Furbank are certainties if fit. Spencer, Ojomoh, Sleightholme, Muir, Cokanasiga, maybe Hendy are all possibles.

Even with him being behind Warr since injury, I'm delighted to see Quirke back in a squad. He's got bags of talent.

What's your take on Fisilau and Oghre?

Do you see Fisilau at 8 at this level or more a flanker?

Problem for Fisilau is he lacks the breakdown skills to play 7 and the size that Borthwick prefers at 6. At 8 he's got that massive work rate both sides of the ball that Borthwick likes the question will be can he bring enough physicality and is his skill set developed enough.

Oghre feels like a stop gap squad selection, like Randall at 9. They are young and decent but I don't think really in the running. I'm expecting Langdon to replace Oghre and Mitchell replace Randall after the Prem final. Shame Seb Blake isn't included, he had a tough time in the Euro Final for Glaws but let's face it his lineout went well under pressure and scrum time was Vs a Bok international front row. Glaws solid club level props were always likely to have a miserable time.

Yeah I share the same thoughts about Fisilau and defo the same about Oghre....he'll be replaced....

To me this is the way it seems to work best.  We need the maximum logical numbers of players to get a shot.  Even if players are not selected for England, they see what the current England coaching staff are looking for and can adapt.  That builds a better player base.  

I certainly agree about Oghre but give a chance and we will see.  I haven't seen enough of Fisilau to have an opinion, but it's never bad to have a big unit in the conversation.

The thing with Fisilau hes only 20, but whats his likely point of difference...at 6'2 17st
Theres a lot of competition....

Oghre, well i actually like that SB is looking at all manner of players in each position....so i might be wrong on Oghre (dont think i will be). Its how each player fits as part of the jigsaw of a team i guess.

Daly - i wonder if that is just a bit of a added rest as we know what he gives or something more...?

I'd hope England are ready to move on from Daly. He's a good player but he's 31 now and there are only a finite number of games available to give the squad experience ahead of 2027.

I'm not disagreeing about Daly as I think there are better options but not necessarily about age. If so likes of Cole, Marler, George, Ford, Slade etc the same would apply.

Yes at 34/35 getting to end of career but if good enough then players should be picked.

However, as I've said before this tour ideal time to give experience to younger players and uncapped. We know what those with 30/40/50 caps can do, let's see if others can.

mountain man wrote:I'm not disagreeing about Daly as I think there are better options but not necessarily about age. If so likes of Cole, Marler, George, Ford, Slade etc the same would apply.

Not quite the same thing. There's a number of options waiting to surpass Daly, who are in better form as well.

Not true of the others. Particularly at tighthead where we are desperately short. Slade is also in the form of his life.

My point completely missed there!

"as I think there are better options but not necessarily about age."

"Yes at 34/35 getting to end of career but if good enough then players should be picked."

So, if good enough age doesn't matter. I also said better options than Daly.

Not sure how you didnt see that.

mountain man wrote:I'm not disagreeing about Daly as I think there are better options but not necessarily about age. If so likes of Cole, Marler, George, Ford, Slade etc the same would apply.

Yes at 34/35 getting to end of career but if good enough then players should be picked.

However, as I've said before this tour ideal time to give experience to younger players and uncapped. We know what those with 30/40/50 caps can do, let's see if others can.

The situation is different for different players and different positions.

Borthwick needs Cole, Marler and George because the potential replacements for them right now are very inexperienced and it makes absolute sense to have some old hands around them, particularly on what will be a tough tour.

Baxter has 0 caps; Dan has 12; Heyes has 7; Obano 4; Oghre 0; Rodd 5; Langdon 2; Davison 2; Stuart 33

Any one of Marler, George or Cole has more international experience than the rest of the tour contenders put together, and they are all still very clearly among the top 2 or 3 in their position. We know that Marler and Cole will be retired before the next RWC, but they're hugely valuable in the short term for bringing the next generation through.

In the backs, Ford and Slade are reasonably likely to be available for RWC 2023, and Ford in particular is clearly among the 3 best flyhalves available to Borthwick. Daly is a couple of years older and a utility back who isn't the best wing or fullback available; I'd actually marginally prefer him to Slade at outside centre, but I don't think he's being considered there.

Daly is not touring because he's staying home as his other half is due to give birth to their first child.

Thanks MB.....that clears that up...... but...that 'could' also be a nail in the coffin of his England career...

Feyi Waboso has been a revelation and surely inked in to that wing spot....leaving everyone fighting for the other...and theres some real talent. The big factor might be the kicking ability...as Feyi Wabosos one "current" weakness is probably his kicking....I'm sure he's working on it.

On the GB&R podcast, Jonny May says people don't realize how fast Ted Hill is. He went as far as to say "...he's probably the fastest player in the Premiership. He's a joke quick. Shocking quick...He's international wing fast."

Geordie wrote:Thanks MB.....that clears that up...... but...that 'could' also be a nail in the coffin of his England career...

Feyi Waboso has been a revelation and surely inked in to that wing spot....leaving everyone fighting for the other...and theres some real talent. The big factor might be the kicking ability...as Feyi Wabosos one "current" weakness is probably his kicking....I'm sure he's working on it.

England tend to sit the 10 and 15 in the backfield whereas the wingers defend up in the line, as such there's little requirement for him to be involved in any kick tennis. He is slightly over competitive mind, needs to knock it back by a percent or two. Was very close to picking up two yellow cards in the last Prem game for two clumsy bits of play, maybe experience will help that.

Geordie wrote:Feyi Waboso has been a revelation and surely inked in to that wing spot..

You say that, but it wasn't so long ago we all agreed Freddie Steward was the first name on the team sheet at full-back.

Rugby Fan wrote:

Geordie wrote:Feyi Waboso has been a revelation and surely inked in to that wing spot..

You say that, but it wasn't so long ago we all agreed Freddie Steward was the first name on the team sheet at full-back.

International rugby is an arms race isn't it. Stop evolving and you get overtaken. Steward was making noticeable attempts to develop his game coming into the end of the season. Won't be enough for this summer but potentially by the Autumn he might be able to force the conversation again.

Hopefully that concept holds across the squad as it'll only benefit England.

Rugby Fan wrote:On the GB&R podcast, Jonny May says people don't realize how fast Ted Hill is. He went as far as to say "...he's probably the fastest player in the Premiership. He's a joke quick. Shocking quick...He's international wing fast."

Quite a statement, can anyone recall a time he’s been able to show that pace in a game?

Pebbles wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:On the GB&R podcast, Jonny May says people don't realize how fast Ted Hill is. He went as far as to say "...he's probably the fastest player in the Premiership. He's a joke quick. Shocking quick...He's international wing fast."

Quite a statement, can anyone recall a time he’s been able to show that pace in a game?

Yes recently scored two tries where he outpaced most of the opposition backs ...I don't think it's a surprise how fast Hill is.

Rugby Fan wrote:

Geordie wrote:Feyi Waboso has been a revelation and surely inked in to that wing spot..

You say that, but it wasn't so long ago we all agreed Freddie Steward was the first name on the team sheet at full-back.

True but I think all round game is significantly stronger at wing than Stewards is at Full Back...at the moment. Hence why Furbank has overtaken Steward.

Geordie wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:

Geordie wrote:Feyi Waboso has been a revelation and surely inked in to that wing spot..

You say that, but it wasn't so long ago we all agreed Freddie Steward was the first name on the team sheet at full-back.

True but I think all round game is significantly stronger at wing than Stewards is at Full Back...at the moment.  Hence why Furbank has overtaken Steward.

Furbank has overtaken Steward in the pecking order because England need a playmaker at 15. Same reason we've seen Marcus Smith there a fair bit as well. The England kicking game gives us great territory but we had limited counter attack options once the inevitable clearance came from the opposition. Steward would reliably carry it back well but it was a bit Mike Brown from a decade a go, beat the first man then set up a position for England to then attack from. Furbank in the back field and we just go straight to the position to attack from.

It'll be interesting to see if opposition teams adapt how they play against of us as a result. Furbank and Ford in the backfield has a lot less security under the high ball then the combination of Steward and Ford. The AB's do like to kick down the middle and use Jordie Barrett to chase a tactic that might cause us problems. During the 6N not many teams kicked to compete against us, that might change. Perhaps we'll start sitting Freeman back a little or similar as he's strong in the air.

Yes and that isn't likely to change as none of the wing candidates are playmakers only Malins if he's even considered for wing..and he's not an international imo.

Stewards use as a carrier was improving hugely at this level but the biggest problem is his pace.  It will be exposed at this level...so can he develop his positional awareness etc to counter that.  That could be the factor that determines if Steward will be the 15 going forward ....or someone else...like Furbank or even the highly impressive Carpenter...
Unless they go horses for courses....

The one thing now though is I'm actually confident that SB will get it pretty right.

And yes Freeman might be used differently....curious where he ends up....wing, FB or centre...

Hopefully Freeman at 13 with Feyi-Wasobo and Sleightholme on wings.

Geordie wrote:Yes and that isn't likely to change as none of the wing candidates are playmakers only Malins if he's even considered for wing..and he's not an international imo.

Stewards use as a carrier was improving hugely at this level but the biggest problem is his pace.  It will be exposed at this level...so can he develop his positional awareness etc to counter that.  That could be the factor that determines if Steward will be the 15 going forward ....or someone else...like Furbank or even the highly impressive Carpenter...
Unless they go horses for courses....

The one thing now though is I'm actually confident that SB will get it pretty right.

And yes Freeman might be used differently....curious where he ends up....wing, FB or centre...

He's got 33 caps and it hasn't been an issue. His positioning is very good, at least as good as Furbank's if not better. He has a tendency to get caught flat footed in defence on occasion but generally most big backs find that. It's a trade off, little bit flat footed in the outside channel at times but a bit that can drop a backrow or you get a bit more agility but significantly less stopping power.

No, his ability to link play and the range of kicking that Furbank has is putting him out in front. If Steward can emulate that he'd be back in. Whether he can develop his core skills to Furbank's level and show the required vision will be a test for him.

Furbank's speed of thought is more notable than his pace though I do like the way Furbank kicks up a gear just before he receives a pass. He really can time a run onto the ball beautifully. That little burst of acceleration as he gets it makes him a much harder target for defenders. Again nothing electrically fast about that but it's very clever.

Freddie has had 1 red and 2 or 3 yellow's, and was lucky not to get 1 or 2 more. He has the turning ability of an oil tanker. Plus his tackling is surprisingly poor for someone of his size. All that said, I was impressed with his running ability with the ball in the 6 Nations this year when picked, albeit that he invariably tripped himself up before making a completely clean break.

A lot of people have had doubts about Freddie for a long time. We all eulogise about his super strength of catching 8 out of 10 high balls, but after that he was quite limited. He is still young and can improve, but he has to do this to get further caps.