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England - The Next Episode: Part Deux: Phoenix from the Ashes

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Post by Geordie Tue 16 Apr 2024, 1:51 pm

First topic message reminder :

Net up...Summer Tour to NZ...and a game v Japan

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Post by formerly known as Sam Mon 16 Sep 2024, 5:15 pm

Geordie wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:Joe El-Abd, Paul Gustard and Norman Laker are rumoured to be in the running to takeover from Felix Jones.

Laker is with Stormers as the defence coach
Gustard is the defence coach with Stade Francais
El-Abd is head coach at Oyannax

Isnt Gustard a fan of the blitz defence? Might give him the edge...

I think Laker runs a blitz defence at the Stormers as well. Has served under Dobson for a number of years, Dobson is exactly the type of intelligent coach I can see Borthwick respecting so acquiring one of his proteges he'd be interested to bring in.

Borthwick will know Gustard from Sarries and England. He was fantastic at club level but at international level didn't quite take off. He was a bad fit for Quins though he did give them some organisation

El-Abd as KC says would be a really interesting acquisition as he's got experience of the top job as well as a defence coach and in France utilising minimal resources. Not sure of his style.

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Post by king_carlos Mon 16 Sep 2024, 6:54 pm

England's defence under Gustard was outstanding to be fair. Also a blitz. Though less aggressive than the Boks inspired system we've seen recently. Basically everything else is less aggressive though. Gustard didn't succeed as a head coach but his work as a defence coach has largely been very good indeed.

The Boks blitz is the most aggressive defence rugby has ever seen though. There's nothing even close to what they started doing under Nienaber and Jones either. It really was a leap forward for the blitz system rather than an evolution. They just started blitzing like maniacs, accepted that it would get found out at times, then built in layers of safeguards as they found issues with it on the top stage. England's recent use of it only the second time we've seen similar aggression of line speed that frequently in union.

I'd really like El-Abd as a forwards coach working under Borthwick, ideally. I think he'd be perfect for that role. England mostly haven't had a designated forwards coach under Borthwick. Cockers will have done a bit while caretaking the scrum role in the '23 Six Nations. Whereas several other setups have a couple of forwards coaches or a designated forwards coach, then a specialist in certain areas such as contact area or forward defence, etc. The Boks have Deon Davids and Duane Vermuelen. Ireland have Easterby and POM. France have Servat and Sempere. I think someone with El-Abd's CV working with the forwards and the fringe defence could be a good balance.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Mon 16 Sep 2024, 7:05 pm

My memory might be playing up on me but didn't the England defence take a leap forward post Gustard, he layed the foundation and then it was moved on from there. Could have been that England found form just after he left that has me misremembering.

England do have Harrison and Strawbridge assisting Borthwick so there are forwards on the coaching staff covering the scrum and breakdown.

I think more than a forward orientated coach they probably need a coach who can provide energy. Borthwick, Sinfield and Wigglesworth are all a bit grim northerner. They aren't going to be the life and soul of the party, which isn't a bad thing, but you need someone to raise the energy. Aled did that job rather well. Not sure Gustard can do that necessarily.

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Post by king_carlos Mon 16 Sep 2024, 7:34 pm

Gustard was defence coach from 2016 to 2018. So two Six Nations titles, including a Grand Slam, record equalling win run and the whitewash in Oz. The defence was fantastic.

Mitchell then came in and initially shifted from Gustard's blitz to a much softer bend don't break approach more akin to what Steve Tandy has favoured with Scotland. Which definitely worked at times but lacked the ability to put pressure back on. Then they graduated to a hybrid under Mitchell where they were much more aggressive near the ruck but drifted wider out. Almost looking like they had different two defensive lines. The inside defence tried to put pressure on and force 10s to play deep if they wanted to get outside them. Then wider out they drifted, trusting the likes of Slade and the wingers to cover a ton of ground.

Then Seibold came in and they kept a similar-ish hybrid system but tended to be more aggressive throughout the defensive line on earlier phases. They blitz harder early, try to prevent slow ball, then drift more as the opposition went through phases, which presumably was hoping that would limit penalties, force the opposition to kick on England's terms rather than their own. This was when positionless attacking structure was completely stalling though, it's hard to tell how Seibold's defence really was as plenty of other things had waned.

Gustard was most certainly successful though with 2 Six Nations from 3 and a quality defence. That was when JJ was brilliant running the defensive line at 13.

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Post by Geordie Tue 17 Sep 2024, 8:07 am

What has El Ab done to warrant being in this consideration. Genuine question as i dont know much about him other than he was a Bristol flanker.

Has he been defence coach etc?

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Post by Rugby Fan Tue 17 Sep 2024, 12:20 pm

Geordie wrote:What has El Ab done to warrant being in this consideration. Genuine question as i dont know much about him other than he was a Bristol flanker.

Has he been defence coach etc?

Times article:

https://archive.is/1bs2f#selection-2209.67-2209.77

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Post by king_carlos Tue 17 Sep 2024, 12:23 pm

El-Abd has been coaching in France between Top 14 and ProD2 for a decade, Geordie. Very well considered. He worked across forwards and defence coaching at Oyonnax and Castres, then became Oyonnax head coach. He took an Oyonnax side with a limited budget to the Top 14. They did get relegated last season, but when I say limited budget, I reckon there's a bigger gap between Oyonnax's spending and most Top 14 clubs than there is between Falcons and the other Prem teams. It was an absolute gulf. They still managed 7 wins and draw in the Top 14 though. For context, Montpellier managed 9 wins last season with a billionaire backing them and a star studded squad. General opinion in France is that El-Abd did about as well as anyone could have done given the resources available. He's really highly rated.

As said prior to that Beeb article, I particularly like that El-Abd is a player who knows the English system inside out, but also has significant experience outside of it. Whereas a lot of English coaches end up playing in the Prem, coaching in the Prem, then stepping up to international jobs. Which can absolutely still work. Many have succeeded through that path. It's good to have a mix of experience in a coaching team though.

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Post by king_carlos Tue 17 Sep 2024, 1:46 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:
Geordie wrote:What has El Ab done to warrant being in this consideration. Genuine question as i dont know much about him other than he was a Bristol flanker.

Has he been defence coach etc?

Times article:

https://archive.is/1bs2f#selection-2209.67-2209.77

I didn't see that you'd posted this when I sent my post above, sorry RF.

Good article that. Lowe is certainly one of the better journalists on English rugby stuff. Charlie Morgan, Torygraph, and Chris Foy, Daily Heil, tend to be the other two who are often bang on the money with the England team.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Tue 17 Sep 2024, 4:34 pm

Yeah for reference Oyonnax has a population of 22k. It's not a big place and their stadium holds 11.5k. It's not a set up you'd expect at the top end of French Rugby. Selling the club to prospective players must be quite tough as there's no cosmopolitan city, no French Rivera and no big wages.

El-Abd does have a good reputation. Promotions as assistant and head coach at Oyonnax and he was the defence coach at Castres when they won the league back in 2018.

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Post by Rugby Fan Tue 17 Sep 2024, 5:12 pm

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2024/09/17/england-felix-jones-replacement-borthwick-gustard-el-abd/

England suffer setback in bid to replace Felix Jones as French clubs issue hands-off warning

Steve Borthwick’s search for a new defence coach has hit a stumbling block with French clubs warning the England boss off his two leading candidates.

Telegraph Sport revealed on Monday that Paul Gustard, currently the Stade Français defence coach, and Joe El-Abd, the head coach of Oyonnax, were on Borthwick’s final shortlist to replace Felix Jones.

However, both French clubs have declared it would be “impossible” for either man to be released from their contracts early to join up with England in time for their autumn international campaign.

Dougal Bendjaballah, the president of Oyonnax, said they have yet to receive a formal approach for El-Abd from the Rugby Football Union and would not welcome one either.

He said: “I have no contact with the RFU but for Joe, the situation is clear: it is impossible for him to leave Oyonnax now, we have a deal, and he will finish the season.”

That warning was echoed by Stade Français chief executive Thomas Lombard, who said of Gustard, who engineered the best defensive record in the Top 14 last season: “It is impossible for us to let Paul leave Stade Français, he is under contract until 2026. We want to keep him.”

While both clubs are understandably keen to keep two highly-rated coaches, the RFU has previously bought targets out of their contracts, such as when it poached Eddie Jones from the Stormers. The strong personal connections that Borthwick has with both Gustard and El-Abd will also mean the clubs risk keeping a coach while he is unhappy being there.

However, neither Stade Français nor Oyonnax will be inclined to do the RFU any favours – as might a Premiership club – and their owners are known to be willing to dig their heels in over a point of principle.

El-Abd has plenty of admirers within French rugby for the work he has done with Oyonnax whom he has helped punch well above their weight after securing promotion to the Top 14 in 2023. The 44-year-old has been strongly linked with a return to his former club Castres at the end of the current campaign, which could prove an added complication.

At the very least, the French clubs’ hardline stance may mean Borthwick has to revert to Plan B, whether that is ensuring that Felix Jones remains in his role for the autumn despite handing in his notice or bringing a young coach in on secondment as he did with Harlequins’ Nick Evans in his first campaign. Sale Sharks’ Byron McGuigan is known to be highly rated in RFU coaching circles.

England start their autumn campaign against New Zealand at Twickenham on November 2 followed by visits of Australia, South Africa and Japan.

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Post by mountain man Tue 24 Sep 2024, 5:48 pm

BBC reckon Joe El-Abd will be defence coach, can't say I know much about him but photo of him playing for Bristol he looks very familiar.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/articles/cj04zyj38z8o

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Post by formerly known as Sam Tue 24 Sep 2024, 9:35 pm

Rumours el Abd has a clause in his contract that he can exercise if an international team approach him.

By all accounts he's done well in France. Won the thing as defence coach at Castres. Got two promotions with Oyonnax, one as an assistant and one in the top job. Oyonnax aren't operating with much in the way of budget.

Knows Borthwick well from Uni days, good friends.

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Post by mountain man Wed 25 Sep 2024, 8:17 am

Is he a proponent of the blitz defence? Successive England defence coaches have used this and when done well it's worked and the players are used to it. An abrupt change to another system by a new coach would take some time to bed in if that's the case.
I assume and it can only be an assumption that blitz will continue and he'll bring his take on it.

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Post by Rugby Fan Wed 25 Sep 2024, 2:41 pm

mountain man wrote:Is he a proponent of the blitz defence? Successive England defence coaches have used this and when done well it's worked and the players are used to it. An abrupt change to another system by a new coach would take some time to bed in if that's the case.
I assume and it can only be an assumption that blitz will continue and he'll bring his take on it.

Telegraph understands he will continue the blitz. The players felt they were finally seeing benefits. (To be cynical, it's also in their interest to continue, as any entrenched system is a barrier to entry for newcomers).

If Borthwick and El-Abd do have a longstanding personal relationship, then you'd hope all this will be thrashed out beforehand. Especially as Robertson and MacDonald didn't do that with the All Blacks.

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Post by king_carlos Wed 25 Sep 2024, 7:01 pm

The blitz was showing massive potential at times. It also caused holes when the alignment wasn't there, but that's exactly what the Boks had in the early days of their blitz too. Nienaber, with Rassie's support, seemed to be happy to go all guns blazing and accept that they'd find out some weaknesses on the job. Then they steadily plugged them by adjusting the system and getting some players to cover insane amounts of ground (Kolisi all the time and PSdT when needed), whilst lots of others were clearly told to double down on the kamikaze line speed (Etzebeth is incredible at leading that whilst still being a world class second row elsewhere) and with plenty of the pack just smashing rucks like no team really has before (Kitshoff and Marx are maniacs there, Etzebeth again does it, Kwagga doesn't seem to feel pain, Wiese is following suit).

The England pack does strike me as having players suited to those roles for the forwards. The backs are a bigger question mark. They lack a centre with de Allende's ability to basically be another flanker in defence when required. Whilst Lukhanyo Am and Jesse Kriel have been phenomenal for them in the 13 channel and their wingers take on probably the toughest defensive role that any system puts on their position. Kolbe especially is phenomenal defensively. Arendse has followed suit. The England outside backs aren't a million miles away. IFW should suit that system very well. Slade is a really good defensive general at 13, Freeman could be excellent there in time I think, whilst Marchant would also suit it due to his pace. That lack of a real physical presence in the midfield is stark when compared to Aki, de Allende, Jordie Barrett and Danty though.

I'd definitely hope that they stick with the hyper aggressive blitz for the time being. It's shown more than enough potential in a relatively short space of time. Sinfield didn't really do something that similar. The defence blitzed at times early in the 2023 Six Nations but without close to the recent line speed. Then shifted to a drift against Ireland. They were using that drift all game there IIRC, not just after the Steward red that got overturned. Whereas under Jones they've almost taken the Boks system and if anything have tried to be even more aggressive off the line on earlier phases.

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Post by Geordie Thu 26 Sep 2024, 1:20 pm

El Abd is confirmed as D coach.

https://www.skysports.com/rugby-union/news/12040/13222401/joe-el-abd-joins-england-mens-team-as-defence-coach-from-autumn-nations-series

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Post by mountain man Thu 26 Sep 2024, 2:01 pm

As expected given recent reports. Let's hope he has a bit more success this season then seeing as Oyonnax were relegated last...

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Post by formerly known as Sam Thu 26 Sep 2024, 2:08 pm

mountain man wrote:As expected given recent reports. Let's hope he has a bit more success this season then seeing as Oyonnax were relegated last...

If you think Falcons have a comparatively small budget compared to the rest of the Prem Oyonnax probably had a bigger comparative gap between them and the rest of the Top14.

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Post by mountain man Thu 26 Sep 2024, 2:31 pm

No idea of budget of Oyonnax but fact team was relegated and lost 18, won 7 not the greatest endorsement. Obviously a lot more than just defence coach is at "fault" as such but still not a great look.

Anyway, he's in so all we can do is see how it pans out. Not fair to condemn before a match played.

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Post by king_carlos Thu 26 Sep 2024, 2:40 pm

Getting 7 wins and a draw in the same season when Montpellier got 9 wins whilst backed by a billionaire was largely seen as a strong achievement when I chat to French fans. Oyonnax is tiny. Their stadium capacity is half the towns population. It's about the same size as Truro or Swinton. Their funding is commensurate with that. Them getting to the point where they are regularly challenging for promotion was seen as a lovely good news story in French rugby.

Perhaps more importantly for the defence coach role, he won the Top 14 with Castres as defence coach.

A French rugby fan who's involved in a Zoom group where we present and discuss analysis together a couple of times a month thinks it's a good appointment.

Complete off topic, but that same fan also brought the bizarre situation with the Racing inside centre selection to my attention. Which might interest some here. Dan Lancaster, Stuart Lancaster's son who couldn't hold down a consistent starting shirt at Ealing, has started 2 of their first 3 fixtures at 12. Meanwhile, Josua Tuisova has been punted back out to the wing having been one of the most effective 12s at the RWC. Whilst Sam James has been pushed to 15 for those two games, with the excellent fullback Max Spring benched. Racing fans feel their best performance of the opening 3 rounds, by a distance, was with Sam James at 12 and Lancaster Jnr dropped. About the most positive thing this analyst had to say for Lancaster was that he made some "solid tackles". Apparently his kicking from hand and distribution, which you'd expect to be good as Lancaster is effectively a second fly-half at 12, have been about the standard you'd expect from Tuisova. Who has game plans built around avoiding him needing to pass or kick much. Unsurprisingly, the questions around nepotism are growing. I really rate Lancaster Snr as a coach, but, I can understand those queries. Having seen Lancaster Jnr at Tigers, he's probably the second best young Tigers 10 that I saw go to France after Harry Glynn. I wasn't at all surprised to see him struggle to start ahead of Falcons academy product Craig Willis at Ealing. If it weren't for dad being at Racing, I'd genuinely have been shocked if Dan got a deal with a strong ProD2 club. For him to suddenly be starting ahead of Tuisova or Sam James is genuinely laughable.

In slightly more positive Racing 92 news. Junior Kpoku did make his first Top 14 start as well. On the blindside, which is really common for young locks. Alongside Olamide Sodeke and Joe Bailey, he looked a great talent for the U20s when they won their first Junior RWC since 2016 over the summer. I thought that Alex Groves looked like a gun at that level though, he's stalled. Joel Kpoku looked an absolute specimen in his early Sarries apps. Then stalled. So it's no guarantee of success in senior rugby. Good to see Junior debuting so young in a very strong league still.

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Post by mountain man Thu 26 Sep 2024, 2:58 pm

There's nepotism and then there's being an old mate of Borthwick. Both can assist career.

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Post by king_carlos Thu 26 Sep 2024, 3:20 pm

Difference being El-Abd has exactly the CV that assistant coaches at international teams often have. Success as an assistant at club level, shift to head coach at club level, come back to the specialist role as an assistant at international level is the path the majority of coaches take. Whereas Dan Lancaster was average at Tigers, second string at Ealing and is suddenly starting in the Top 14 for the club his dad happens to manage. Somewhat different.

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Post by Geordie Thu 26 Sep 2024, 3:21 pm

mountain man wrote:There's nepotism and then there's being an old mate of Borthwick. Both can assist career.

Maybe give him a chance? Hes got a very good reputation in a strong league. Maybe he'll bring a some intelligence to the blitz defence instead of the maniacal version we have at the moment.

Hes doing it part time until the end of the season and Felix Jones is seeing out his contract remotely as an analyst...That aspect is a bit of a mess to be fair.

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Post by Geordie Thu 26 Sep 2024, 3:26 pm

king_carlos wrote:
In slightly more positive Racing 92 news. Junior Kpoku did make his first Top 14 start as well. On the blindside, which is really common for young locks. Alongside Olamide Sodeke and Joe Bailey, he looked a great talent for the U20s when they won their first Junior RWC since 2016 over the summer. I thought that Alex Groves looked like a gun at that level though, he's stalled. Joel Kpoku looked an absolute specimen in his early Sarries apps. Then stalled. So it's no guarantee of success in senior rugby. Good to see Junior debuting so young in a very strong league still.

Is it good news hes over there though KC? Wont it mean hes likely to opt for Les Bleus....

We have plenty of young locks at the same stage of development though like those above Sodeke etc. I also think your own Chessum Jr needs a good season to catch up on a lost season or so.

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Post by king_carlos Thu 26 Sep 2024, 3:41 pm

Geordie wrote:
king_carlos wrote:
In slightly more positive Racing 92 news. Junior Kpoku did make his first Top 14 start as well. On the blindside, which is really common for young locks. Alongside Olamide Sodeke and Joe Bailey, he looked a great talent for the U20s when they won their first Junior RWC since 2016 over the summer. I thought that Alex Groves looked like a gun at that level though, he's stalled. Joel Kpoku looked an absolute specimen in his early Sarries apps. Then stalled. So it's no guarantee of success in senior rugby. Good to see Junior debuting so young in a very strong league still.

Is it good news hes over there though KC? Wont it mean hes likely to opt for Les Bleus....

We have plenty of young locks at the same stage of development though like those above Sodeke etc. I also think your own Chessum Jr needs a good season to catch up on a lost season or so.  

The Top 14 is an excellent league with generally very good coaching. So he should develop well there. Who he opts for will be up to him. He moved young enough that he will get JIFF status for his career by 23 if he's still in France. That will be increasingly important for earning well over here if the FFR keep increasing the JIFF quotas. We've seen fewer residency qualifications in general since the change from 3 year residency. If he's stays long enough to get JIFF, then he'll also qualify for France though. So it may all depend on what Kpoku wants.

I think Chess Jnr will need more than a season to catch up. Generally, I think forwards who lose big periods of development at that age take more time than they've lost to catch up, if that makes sense? So, if he gets fit and playing this season, I'd expect that by the end of '24/25 that he'll be slightly behind where he would've progressed to by the end of 23/24 without injury. It's just a brutal age to be out injured from a physical development perspective. I always use Tom and Ben Curry as examples there. Ben was picked for the senior England team ahead of Tom. They looked identical in terms of physical development. Then Ben got injured, when he got back on the pitch he looked a completely different build to Tom. It's a vital period for maxing out on S&C work as athletically gifted kids that age can develop very fast. Whereas if you get a bad injury or illness at that time, you're going backwards or at best treading water when you should be progressing faster than you'll ever be able to progress again.

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Post by Geordie Thu 26 Sep 2024, 3:51 pm

king_carlos wrote:
Geordie wrote:
king_carlos wrote:
In slightly more positive Racing 92 news. Junior Kpoku did make his first Top 14 start as well. On the blindside, which is really common for young locks. Alongside Olamide Sodeke and Joe Bailey, he looked a great talent for the U20s when they won their first Junior RWC since 2016 over the summer. I thought that Alex Groves looked like a gun at that level though, he's stalled. Joel Kpoku looked an absolute specimen in his early Sarries apps. Then stalled. So it's no guarantee of success in senior rugby. Good to see Junior debuting so young in a very strong league still.

Is it good news hes over there though KC? Wont it mean hes likely to opt for Les Bleus....

We have plenty of young locks at the same stage of development though like those above Sodeke etc. I also think your own Chessum Jr needs a good season to catch up on a lost season or so.  

The Top 14 is an excellent league with generally very good coaching. So he should develop well there. Who he opts for will be up to him. He moved young enough that he will get JIFF status for his career by 23 if he's still in France. That will be increasingly important for earning well over here if the FFR keep increasing the JIFF quotas. We've seen fewer residency qualifications in general since the change from 3 year residency. If he's stays long enough to get JIFF, then he'll also qualify for France though. So it may all depend on what Kpoku wants.

I think Chess Jnr will need more than a season to catch up. Generally, I think forwards who lose big periods of development at that age take more time than they've lost to catch up, if that makes sense? So, if he gets fit and playing this season, I'd expect that by the end of '24/25 that he'll be slightly behind where he would've progressed to by the end of 23/24 without injury. It's just a brutal age to be out injured from a physical development perspective. I always use Tom and Ben Curry as examples there. Ben was picked for the senior England team ahead of Tom. They looked identical in terms of physical development. Then Ben got injured, when he got back on the pitch he looked a completely different build to Tom. It's a vital period for maxing out on S&C work as athletically gifted kids that age can develop very fast. Whereas if you get a bad injury or illness at that time, you're going backwards or at best treading water when you should be progressing faster than you'll ever be able to progress again.

Yes very true.

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Post by mountain man Thu 26 Sep 2024, 4:11 pm

Geordie wrote:
mountain man wrote:There's nepotism and then there's being an old mate of Borthwick. Both can assist career.

Maybe give him a chance? Hes got a very good reputation in a strong league. Maybe he'll bring a some intelligence to the blitz defence instead of the maniacal version we have at the moment.

Hes doing it part time until the end of the season and Felix Jones is seeing out his contract remotely as an analyst...That aspect is a bit of a mess to be fair.

yep which is exactly what I wrote earlier. :

"Anyway, he's in so all we can do is see how it pans out. Not fair to condemn before a match played."

The mate of Borthwick jibe was tongue in cheek.

i wouldn't say defence under F Jones was manical, it was ultra aggressive but was good I thought. High risk but high reward.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Fri 27 Sep 2024, 11:17 am

king_carlos wrote:
Geordie wrote:
king_carlos wrote:
In slightly more positive Racing 92 news. Junior Kpoku did make his first Top 14 start as well. On the blindside, which is really common for young locks. Alongside Olamide Sodeke and Joe Bailey, he looked a great talent for the U20s when they won their first Junior RWC since 2016 over the summer. I thought that Alex Groves looked like a gun at that level though, he's stalled. Joel Kpoku looked an absolute specimen in his early Sarries apps. Then stalled. So it's no guarantee of success in senior rugby. Good to see Junior debuting so young in a very strong league still.

Is it good news hes over there though KC? Wont it mean hes likely to opt for Les Bleus....

We have plenty of young locks at the same stage of development though like those above Sodeke etc. I also think your own Chessum Jr needs a good season to catch up on a lost season or so.  

The Top 14 is an excellent league with generally very good coaching. So he should develop well there. Who he opts for will be up to him. He moved young enough that he will get JIFF status for his career by 23 if he's still in France. That will be increasingly important for earning well over here if the FFR keep increasing the JIFF quotas. We've seen fewer residency qualifications in general since the change from 3 year residency. If he's stays long enough to get JIFF, then he'll also qualify for France though. So it may all depend on what Kpoku wants.

I think Chess Jnr will need more than a season to catch up. Generally, I think forwards who lose big periods of development at that age take more time than they've lost to catch up, if that makes sense? So, if he gets fit and playing this season, I'd expect that by the end of '24/25 that he'll be slightly behind where he would've progressed to by the end of 23/24 without injury. It's just a brutal age to be out injured from a physical development perspective. I always use Tom and Ben Curry as examples there. Ben was picked for the senior England team ahead of Tom. They looked identical in terms of physical development. Then Ben got injured, when he got back on the pitch he looked a completely different build to Tom. It's a vital period for maxing out on S&C work as athletically gifted kids that age can develop very fast. Whereas if you get a bad injury or illness at that time, you're going backwards or at best treading water when you should be progressing faster than you'll ever be able to progress again.

Nerve issue in the shoulder for Chessum Jnr which has kept him out for nearly a year. Should be back next month though which is good news. No news on Josh Manz another former England under 20 that was looking extremely good last pre season before a nasty leg injury ruled him out for a year.

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Post by Rugby Fan Fri 27 Sep 2024, 11:25 am

Telegraph says England are talking to Phil Morrow of Saracens as a possible replacement for Aled Walters.

As the season is underway, it might be another job-sharing arrangement initially.

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Post by Geordie Fri 27 Sep 2024, 1:40 pm

He would be a welcome appointment...

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Post by Rugby Fan Fri 27 Sep 2024, 2:19 pm

Geordie wrote:He would be a welcome appointment...

Telegraph says some clubs are concerned about a conflict of interest. Under the new RFU-Premiership deal, Borthwick will have final say on dual contract players. In principle, and in practice, Morrow would have major input on when Saracens' opponents get access to their England players.

Conflict of interest concerns

A solution has been put forward for Morrow to take up a joint role where he would be released by the club to work with England during the international windows while honouring his Saracens’ contract as a gesture to the new collaboration approach under the professional game agreement signed earlier this month between the RFU and the clubs.

However, given that a combined role could be seen as a potential conflict of interest as it would involve the oversight of individual development programmes for England players on enhanced elite player squad contracts, it will almost certainly require the acquiescence of the other Premiership clubs.

It is understood Premiership Rugby’s investor board, which represents the clubs, was informed of the RFU’s approach to Morrow on Thursday and it seems its response will determine whether the appointment can be rubber-stamped. A decision is expected within a couple of days.

With England’s first training camp just a couple of weeks away, Steve Borthwick, the head coach, is no doubt keen for a swift resolution and is thought to be keen to make a presentation to the clubs about the role Morrow will play.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2024/09/27/england-saracens-phil-morrow-replace-aled-walters-coach/

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Post by Geordie Fri 27 Sep 2024, 2:38 pm

Thats a relevant concern actually...never thought of it.

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Post by doctor_grey Fri 27 Sep 2024, 2:53 pm

Geordie wrote:Thats a relevant concern actually...never thought of it.
Yeah, me neither.  But now that it's out of the bag, it is also a bad idea for Morrow to have medical insight into the condition of some players on other clubs. That also seems a conflict of interest.

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Post by Geordie Sun 29 Sep 2024, 6:39 pm

Will SB be looking at the Bath centre partnership with interest?


Last edited by Geordie on Sun 29 Sep 2024, 7:25 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sun 29 Sep 2024, 6:44 pm

Geordie wrote:Will SN be looking at the Bath centre partnership with interest?

Lawrence was outstanding. Butt was solid and Kelly was good for Tigers (threw some big passes to bring the wings into the game).

Good weekend of Prem rugby with pretty much every position having some young EQ talent on show. Borthwick will be spoilt for choice at this rate.

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Post by Geordie Sun 29 Sep 2024, 7:27 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
Geordie wrote:Will SN be looking at the Bath centre partnership with interest?

Lawrence was outstanding. Butt was solid and Kelly was good for Tigers (threw some big passes to bring the wings into the game).

Good weekend of Prem rugby with pretty much every position having some young EQ talent on show. Borthwick will be spoilt for choice at this rate.

Yeah totally agree...Young players in all positions even tight head playing well.

Ironically when the prem is in serious financial issues

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sun 29 Sep 2024, 7:34 pm

Geordie wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
Geordie wrote:Will SN be looking at the Bath centre partnership with interest?

Lawrence was outstanding. Butt was solid and Kelly was good for Tigers (threw some big passes to bring the wings into the game).

Good weekend of Prem rugby with pretty much every position having some young EQ talent on show. Borthwick will be spoilt for choice at this rate.

Yeah totally agree...Young players in all positions even tight head playing well.

Ironically when the prem is in serious financial issues

The Prems had financial issues for years, COVID just made everything worse.

The clubs will more than likely flourish again it'll just take time. The fact the academies are throwing out talent will only help things.

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Post by Geordie Mon 30 Sep 2024, 8:50 am

Its how the covid loan pay backs hit which is the concern...its due imminently isnt it?

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Post by formerly known as Sam Mon 30 Sep 2024, 12:14 pm

Geordie wrote:Its how the covid loan pay backs hit which is the concern...its due imminently isnt it?

Yes, when it starts and the repayment period were being argued over I believe. They will be tough for clubs already running at a loss/minimal profit.

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Post by king_carlos Tue 01 Oct 2024, 5:30 pm

The covid loans were all on individual and very varied terms depending on the club from what I know. Tigers is over 10 years and they started repayments last September. Glaws are 20 years and start repayment in 2025. Their first repayment will include a lot of interest though, IIRC correctly they are near enough paying a whole year in that first repayment. Even the interest rates varied too. Many are at 2% but I believe Falcons are at base rate. Lots of variables basically.

There's a poster on the Tigers unoffy who's also active on rugby Reddit that does excellent breakdowns of clubs accounts from time to time. He works in financial industries though, even then it can be time consuming breaking this stuff down. Last time I had a proper dive into it beyond Tigers was looking at the accounts for LI and Powerday, then owner Mike Crossan's company.

One thing to keep an eye on player wise. Alex Mitchell is currently stood down pending scans on a neck injury. Hopefully it isn't too long a layoff as he's been excellent for England since being recalled before the RWC. Being stood down and referred to a specialist for that sort of injury is a worry though.

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Post by Rugby Fan Tue 01 Oct 2024, 11:37 pm

George Ford and Alex Mitchell are both doubts for England’s autumn internationals after the half-back pairing were sidelined with injury with no clear return date.

Mitchell is yet to play this season because of a concerning neck injury, while Ford suffered a torn quad muscle playing for Sale against Saracens at the weekend and was replaced after only six minutes.

The pair started four of England’s matches in this year’s Six Nations together, including the win over Ireland at Twickenham, before Ford missed the summer tour of Japan and New Zealand with an Achilles issue.

Phil Dowson, the Northampton Saints director of rugby, revealed that Mitchell had come into training with a sore neck before the start of the season, and then underwent scans and treatment. “I genuinely do not have a timeline, it could be anything at the moment,” Dowson said on Tuesday.

“It’s up in the air. It’s hard to make a short or a long-term plan when you don’t have that information. He is feeling a bit better on the back of some time off. He’s probably bored more than anything else but he’s also frustrated because there is no timeline towards it.

“What you don’t want to do is mess around with it. We’re trying to be quite conservative with it, give it time. The less invasive in those sorts of things the better, so we’re trying to give it every opportunity.”

Meanwhile Sale’s director of rugby, Alex Sanderson, said there was not yet a definitive verdict on Ford’s quad injury, with the results on his tear expected on Tuesday evening.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2024/10/01/england-double-injury-blow-alex-mitchell-george-ford-doubts/


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Post by Rugby Fan Wed 02 Oct 2024, 11:48 am

The Phil Morrow question came up on the BBC Rugby podcast.

Chris Ashton, who knows Morrow from Saracens, noted that there would be no issue in Ireland, as the everything falls under the IRFU. For Ashton, this means England should also have no problem.

Danny Care had a different view. He's still with Quins, who have a touchy relationship with Saracens, not withstanding Care's personal friendship with Jamie George. He said a conflict of interest does exist, and needs to be addressed.

Mark McCall seems to think that Phil Morrow's character is being called into question by talk of a conflict. We don't have neutral referees for international games because we think everyone will cheat if they are in charge of a game featuring their own country. We do it to ensure the question doesn't arise.

The other Premiership clubs could just nod it through. Alternatively, they could demand that Morrow choose between Saracens and England. Or they could insist on Borthwick giving up final say on player availability while Morrow still has club responsibilities.

This is hardly a new issue for England. Shaun Edwards wanted to combine his club work at Wasps with an England role, when the RFU first approached him. The same conflict of interest argument meant the RFU couldn't accept that deal. Instead, to try and keep him in on an England pathway, he was offered the Saxons job, which would let him stay at Wasps.

By some accounts, Edwards felt this was a backwater post which grossly undervalued him. He then accepted Gatland's offer to work with Wales, which he combined with Wasps. A couple of years later, Edwards accepted he couldn't do both jobs, and gave up Wasps. Ironically, the man who did take over the Saxons was Stuart Lancaster, so that backwater job turned into a pathway for the top England job.


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Post by carpet baboon Thu 03 Oct 2024, 5:25 pm

On the Penguins and Potholes podcast (highly recommended as they only occasionally talk about rugby) Andrew Trimble said that Felix Jones had left as he found the environment toxic.
He also said he might be quoting him wrong, but I don't remember reading anything from Jones at all.
As Trimble is good friends with Jones it could have come.from a conversation they have had, but it sounded like Trimble was saying he read it.
Just wondering if anyone had seen any direct quotes from Jones


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Post by Rugby Fan Fri 04 Oct 2024, 12:18 am

Morrow job-sharing blocked.

Premiership clubs have blocked an initial Rugby Football Union (RFU) proposal to allow Phil Morrow to retain his role as Saracens’ performance director after being appointed England’s head of performance, Telegraph Sport understands.

On Thursday, clubs voted 7-3 against the arrangement at a meeting of Premiership Rugby’s investor board in the presence of England head coach Steve Borthwick. Efforts are being made to find a compromise but there is entrenched opposition from certain clubs to the potential conflict of interest that could occur if Morrow were chosen to replace Aled Walters.

Under the new Professional Game Partnership, Borthwick – and by extension Morrow – would have “final say” on sports science and medical issues as well oversight of individual development programmes.

Telegraph Sport can reveal that a “firewall” was proposed that would give Morrow access to the strength and conditioning data of England players only during the periods internationals were played. When he returned to his role at Saracens, he would no longer be able to access such data.

‘It is ridiculous’
However, that plan drew short shrift from one senior club figure, who said: “You would have to be naive in the extreme to think he and Steve are not going to have conversations outside of those periods, otherwise why are we collecting all this data? You do not bring in a guy to head up your performance programme and then not give him the information he needs.

“The RFU have made this big fuss about gaining medical control and having access to all the S and C data and they genuinely think we believe they will hire someone who does not have access to none of that information? It is ridiculous.”

Some clubs are more ambivalent about the proposal. Bristol Bears are understood to be supportive, subject to receiving further information. But most clubs are deeply uneasy about an arrangement that would make Morrow one of the most influential figures in Saracens’ and England’s camps.

On Wednesday, Mark McCall, Saracens director of rugby, said he hoped a resolution would be found this week. However, his “small mindedness” remark about blocking the Morrow two jobs arrangement was not well received within the league.

‘Competitive advantage’ for Saracens
Further talks are scheduled for next week but one senior executive believes the only way Morrow can join the England set up is by the RFU buying him out of the four-year contract he recently signed with Saracens.

“I have no issue with him going there, but if the RFU want him so badly then they need to recruit him full time,” a source said. “At the moment, it feels like Saracens are trying to have their cake and eat it if he goes into a high-performance environment where ultimately he has got visibility over the best of the best. That gives Saracens a competitive advantage.”

England had hoped Morrow would be in place for a three-day training camp next week, although that will focus more on alignment than on strength and conditioning. They will need a figure in place to fill Walters’ shoes in time for the training camp that begins n Girona on Oct 21.

Telegraph Sport revealed last week that Morrow was primary target for Borthwick, who worked under him for three years as a player at Saracens. Morrow joined Saracens in 2011, having been head of fitness at Ireland, a role that Walters has been appointed to.

Gloucester’s Dan Tobin will replace Tom Tombleson as strength and conditioning coach while Joe El-Abd has been appointed to replace Felix Jones as defence coach. He will combine his responsibilities with his role as Oyonnax’s director of rugby until the end of the season.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2024/10/03/premiership-clubs-block-england-proposal-phil-morrow-job/

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Post by mountain man Fri 04 Oct 2024, 1:22 pm

Cowan-Dickie and Lozowski included in training squad. Lozowski not played for England since 2018 so interesting call up. Whether he'll make squad for matches though is another thing but shows Borthwick looking at everyone.

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Post by Rugby Fan Fri 04 Oct 2024, 2:01 pm

Lozowski was such a useful squad guy, it was more surprising Jones dropped him than Danny Care.

As it turned out, dropping Care was the bigger immediate loss, as Jones never developed additional scrum halves to compensate.

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Post by mountain man Fri 04 Oct 2024, 2:03 pm

Yep, England missed out on Cares best years due to Eddie being bloody minded.

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT Fri 04 Oct 2024, 2:58 pm

What has Langdon done to Borthwick. He was the form hooker in the Prem last season and looks to have continued it this season.

Don't know what we are going to use for backs with 5 of our first choices in the squad and Mitchell potentially injured
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Post by Poorfour Fri 04 Oct 2024, 4:07 pm

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:What has Langdon done to Borthwick. He was the form hooker in the Prem last season and looks to have continued it this season.

Don't know what we are going to use for backs with 5 of our first choices in the squad and Mitchell potentially injured

Isn't the international window clear of Prem games now we've only got 18 games to fit in?
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Post by king_carlos Fri 04 Oct 2024, 4:22 pm

Listing by position as it's easier to get a proper look that way.

1.Genge, Marler, Baxter
2.George, Dan, LCD
3.Stuart, Cole, Davison
4.Itoje, Martin
5.Chessum, Coles
6.CCS, Roots, Fisilau
7.Underhill, Pearson
8.Earl, Willis

9.Spencer, Randall, JvP
10.M Smith, F Smith

11.Freeman, Roebuck
12.Lawrence, Dingwall
13.Lozowski, Daly, Beard
14.IFW, Sleightholme
15.Furbank, Steward

Rehabing with squad: Slade, Dombrandt, Northmore

Not considered due to injury: Rodd, Curry x 2, Mitchell, Quirke, Ford, Ojomoh, Cokanasiga, Muir

Langdon's continued absence is the obvious thing that still sticks out there. I rate him.

Pearson back in with Pepper out too. I like that. I think Pepper will be a brilliant openside and is already very good. Pearson has the carrying ability that I feel the back row needs more than Pepper's defensive strength. Pearson needs to improve his conditioning, he faded drastically after a promising start in that RWC warmup against Wales. There's lots of potential there though.

Lozowski seems like straight cover for Slade. He's got a bit more pace but probably a slightly worse passing game IMO. Both are very good individual defenders and defensive leaders. He's the player of those discarded after that Japan game that I remained most curious about. Care never had the kicking game for the international game. His career spanned 4 England coaches and 100 caps, I think he never started more than 6 or 7 games on the bounce without getting dropped or benched due to that glaring weakness. Brilliant at times as an impact sub but he came up short as a starter over and over again.

I'm really glad that Quirke at least seems to be in the picture if he's listed as 'not considered'. He's got so much talent if he can stay fit.

Overall, I think there's a lot to like in that group of players. A few worrying areas have solutions in that training squad. Smith x 2 as the heirs to Faz and Ford. The back row is developing far more carrying options. I really like those 4 second rows that seem to be settling as a unit. The back three looks very promising. Baxter could be something special.

A significant physical presence in the midfield remains the obvious absence compared to the gun international teams though. de Allende. Bundee Aki. Danty. Jordie. It's not a coincidence that the top 4 teams have at least one centre who can get over the gain line and stop players on it.


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