Ulster Discussion Thread

[Kingshu]

First topic message reminder :

In a backrow of Izzy,Timoney and McCann and any Ulster fan will tell you its McCann whos played the best this season. But the other two are the ones called up. It appears that for Ulster players for national selection you are soley judged on the games V Leinster and Munster, the rest of the season the selectors arnt watching. Izzy and Timoney both had great games V them and had some great highlights, McCann was good but no real showreel moments in those games.

[carpet baboon]

Well he's worked with Ritchie at U20s, so it could be a possibility

[carpet baboon]

Jeremy Davidson rumour. Either he has moved into an advisory role or he has agreed to leave immediately.
Will be interesting to see where he and Felix end up next season.

[Kingshu]

ToT 6 match ban, and I thought the Red Card was harsh.

[carpet baboon]

Jesus that's a bit steep.
Wilson will be getting some minutes

[formerly known as Sam]

ToT 6 match ban, and I thought the Red Card was harsh.

How does that effect the likely 23 for the Champions Cup match at the weekend?

[geoff999rugby]

ToT 6 match ban, and I thought the Red Card was harsh.

#

Harsh its utterly incomprehensible.

Basically the disciplinary committee is more interested in keeping useless referees on board than make a logical judgement.
I've thought Ben Whitehouse was the worse referee in the URC for sometime - this incident only confirms it.
He said it was deliberate - that's complete nonsense.
Levitation is now a requirement when making a legitimate clear out in case you lose your balance and land on an opponent


As to Ulster if we lose Wilson and Warwick to injuries over the coming weeks we will not be able to, safely, fulfil a fixture.

[Kingshu]

Still have Bryan O'Connor and Barrett to cover TH, but guess we're not allowed a medical Joker like Munster got for LH. We have to make do with Championship props, I'd say theres an IQ one Munster could have signed from the championship, but get a SA one instead.

As to the ban, I do think they need to cut out the dangerous clearout and croc rolls, but to go from something that was arguably a pen a few months back to RC and 6 game ban without any warning is very inconsistent, we'll see if this is the new benchmark and we see a wave of Red cards and long bans for similar, i doubt it though.

[carpet baboon]

ToT 6 match ban, and I thought the Red Card was harsh.

How does that effect the likely 23 for the Champions Cup match at the weekend?

My guess will be Wilson starting with Cory on the bench

[clivemcl]

Only seeing the TOT ban here now. What???

There was a similar challenge in the La Rochelle - Toulouse game. Side entry, straight off feet, primary contact was on the players elbow (pretty similar to a knee), but there was also secondary contact with the knee.

The player got ten minutes in the bin.

The inconsistency is what drives me mad!

[formerly known as Sam]

Only seeing the TOT ban here now. What???

There was a similar challenge in the La Rochelle - Toulouse game. Side entry, straight off feet, primary contact was on the players elbow (pretty similar to a knee), but there was also secondary contact with the knee.

The player got ten minutes in the bin.

The inconsistency is what drives me mad!

Latu? If so that decision is getting a fair amount of criticism in the French media and Dupont has voiced his unhappiness on social media with it getting some support from ex pros.

[mikey_dragon]

I've watched a bit of Top 14 the last 2 weeks, they definitely seem to let more go over there.

[carpet baboon]

Well looks like Sexton is coming to us next season. You would assume he's coming in as attack coach so is Soper leaving? Or moved back to skills?

Also it's confirmed Davidson has "stepped back" from the head coaches role to be an advisor at his own request. So who knows what that means but I would assume he's moving somewhere

[Kingshu]

Davidson was leaving end of season anyway, say thatvits his decision to move to advisor role early and let new guy build from now. I dont know why he was leaving though as results have been good.

Think Davidson will move to a union player pathway development role like O'Shea did in in Italy and now England.

[humphstheman]

From the BBC...looks like there will be some movement in the coaching area for next season.

Head coach Richie Murphy says there is "always going to be speculation" after Ulster were linked with a move for coach Mark Sexton.
Sexton, brother of former Ireland fly-half Johnny, will leave Connacht at the end of the season to take up "a new opportunity".
Murphy said there is "potentially a new coaching position" at Ulster but did not say any more on Sexton.
"We're fairly a long way down the process of setting our coaching team for next year, but we're not finished yet," said Murphy.
"There are obviously a couple of coaches that are off contract at the end of the year that are currently with us.
"Over the next number of weeks we'll feel like we will be in a position to be able to clarify exactly what is happening next year.
"At this moment we are probably not there yet."
Sexton, who was promoted to Connacht's attack coach this season, previously worked with Murphy as Ireland won two Grand Slams in the Under-20s Six Nations.
"There is potentially a new coaching position within Ulster Rugby. There definitely is, and a restructuring of different roles as well.
"It's unfair, and it's unfinished at the moment, so I can't really confirm what that looks like."

[geoff999rugby]

Well we know for a fact Johnny Bell's contract is up and if Sexton comes here Soper is going to have to move.

Its obvious one or both of them are out the door.

[Kingshu]

Soper is senior coach, he says new coaching position opening up, I think this is a dedicated Attack coach (have been saying we need ine for years) I think Sexton will come in as the attack coach, Soper will remain as senior coach (but play less of a role on the attack, maybe as senior coach focusing on skills) and Bell as defense coach I would still be happy to remove.

Yeas maybe defense has improved last few sames but hes been in the role a number of seasons, and its been poor for the majority of it.

So who to come in as Defense coach? Return of Payne would be a backward step for him, unless he is senior coach and Soper removed?
Falloon, worked as defense coach under Murphy at U20 level?

Any others?

[Don Alfonso]

Have seen from someone posting elsewhere that's involved in underage rugby that it is indeed Faloon. Murphy getting the band back together.

Makes sense to make him comfortable in his first couple of seasons as a provincial Head Coach; surround him with folk he trusts and has worked with before.

[geoff999rugby]

Seems a bit top heavy to me Having a Director of Rugby, Head Coach plus a Senior Coach who is not the Attack or Defence coach.
I suppose he could revert to Skills coach (its what Soper is good at).
I would be happy with that provided Bell is told to sling his hook.

[Don Alfonso]

Seems a bit top heavy to me Having a Director of Rugby, Head Coach plus a Senior Coach who is not the Attack or Defence coach.
I suppose he could revert to Skills coach (its what Soper is good at).
I would be happy with that provided Bell is told to sling his hook.

Yeah, I suppose we'll have to wait and see. It might be skills coach in everything other than name? Or not.

Just being greedy re: Davidson - wouldn't be surprised if he rocked up as head coach at Connacht.

[Kingshu]

We dont have a DoR  unless your hoping for Davidson
I notice on the website Soper is listed as Assistant Coach which is same as Jimmy Duffy, Bell as defense coach, and there is no skills coach, since Newby left (guess thats covered by Murphy and Soper).

So head coach, two assistant coaches and defense coach is current coaching team.

I would guess it will change to
Head coach - Murphy
Forwards Coach - Duffy
Attack coach - Sexton
Defense coach - Falloon
And Soper called assistant coach, but in effect is Backs/skills coach

[Don Alfonso]

Could be genius, could be "too many cooks".

Wait until it's all confirmed, I suppose.

[geoff999rugby]

We dont have a DoR  

True - I was thinking of Cunningham whose title is 'Operations Director'

[formerly known as Sam]

Could be genius, could be "too many cooks".

Wait until it's all confirmed, I suppose.

Doesn't look too many cooks compared to other pro teams. I know Tigers have at least that many if not more.

[geoff999rugby]

In Ireland we typically have less, with the possible exception of Leinster

[Kingshu]

Latu in SR v ST game put in a much worse clear out on an exposed limb than TOT and got a yellow card and hearing gave a 3 week ban. How they decided the entry point for the Latu incident was 4 weeks, and ToTs 10 weeks is mind blogging and extremely inconsistent.

If the starting point in the bans were the other way round it may have been fair enough.

[formerly known as Sam]

Any of you heading over to Leicester for the game, wrap up warm. I don't think it's reached positive degrees yet today and there's a good layer of frost. Tomorrow will be much the same and with the late kick off expect near arctic conditions.

[carpet baboon]

Any of you heading over to Leicester for the game, wrap up warm. I don't think it's reached positive degrees yet today and there's a good layer of frost. Tomorrow will be much the same and with the late kick off expect near arctic conditions.

I shall be there with my 10 year old lad. Already got the thermals out. And I hope you guys do a decent coffee

[Maine man]

Turned off the game. Its getting ugly.
Basic skills such as catching a high ball are shocking. Defence is too narrow and the scrum was igoing backwards quicker than the French army.

[clivemcl]

We need and deserve a year in the Challenge Cup.
That’s where these players are.
If I were Kok I’d be regretting the move. He deserves better.
And Augustus would be having second thoughts after that.

Commiserations for McIlroy.
But I don’t think we can point to his injury as too much blame.
That was simply woeful.

[formerly known as Sam]

Watching from the other side your lot were decent in the first half, the issue really was that you just seemed to run out of ideas in attack. You'd make some ground get some momentum and then instead of running a set play to get your strike runners into the game you'd just keep it narrow and run your forwards into ours until you ran out of momentum again.

Second half you didn't really appear. Your 10 tried to get a bit of territory but it fizzled out.

Augustus will give you more go forward next season and hopefully with some of your backs back you'll find a bit more to do with that momentum.

[geoff999rugby]

Its the reality of where we are with a young team.
We are regularly running out of steam in the second half - a frequent weakness of inexperienced teams.

Until we get more power in the front five, especially at prop, we will continue to struggle.

We have an absolutely horrendous set of backs out injured
Stockdale, McCloskey, Hume, Lowry, Moore- a missing 11-15
That's not even including Baloucoune and Moxham

We need to make some key changes:
Sheridan has to start in the 2nd row especially when Henderson cant do 80 mins

We need to realise where the future lies at 10
Murphy is No 1
Both Flannery an Morgan have contracts finishing in 2026.
One of them should be released then - depending on who we think is the best backup player
Humphreys in No 3

At scrum half we need to discover a viable alternative to Doak, especially with Cooney going.
If McDonald hasn't got what it takes, off load him and give younger players a go starting with McKee

Don't agree re Kok he is 31 and has been mainly a 7s player - he is not going to get a better contract than Ulster.
Love his attitude but I think that leads some to believe he is better than he is.

I do agree re Challenge Cup.
We have to beat Exeter - I think we will.
I doubt they will send anything like a full strength team.

We are 56 points behind Sharks on aggregate.
If we get 5 points and they get 0, that's what it will come down to.
Hopefully they are not hammered by Bordeaux.
Alternatively hope we don't score 4 tries

We would almost certainly be away to Connacht, Edinburgh or Montpellier

[geoff999rugby]

No wonder we lost - according to the BBC

Barrett replaced Doak at Scrum Half and
Treadwell and Cooney were our replacement props

Murphy has to go with decision making like that  

[clivemcl]

The team wasn’t overly younger or inexperienced than who played against Connacht. So what do we make of that?

Yes, Leicester are better than Connacht, but I did feel the defeat was a little more of our making than Leicester’s dominance.

The sooner we persist with Murphy at ten the better. Perhaps his dad is reluctant to put too much pressure on him too soon, but the writing i on the wall.

Best players should start, regardless of age.

Stewart Moore was back training last week.
I wonder should we have risked him. The sooner he is back the better. We are thread bare.

[geoff999rugby]

The team wasn’t overly younger or inexperienced than who played against Connacht. So what do we make of that?

Yes, Leicester are better than Connacht, but I did feel the defeat was a little more of our making than Leicester’s dominance.

Leicester are a better team and that was the main factor.

The sooner we persist with Murphy at ten the better. Perhaps his dad is reluctant to put too much pressure on him too soon, but the writing i on the wall.

Best players should start, regardless of age.

I dont think he is reluctant but you have to manage young players.
We did that with McCann and are now reaping the benefit.
It would be a huge mistake to play the likes of Wilson, McNabney and Murphy week in week out at this stage in their careers.

Stewart Moore was back training last week.
I wonder should we have risked him. The sooner he is back the better. We are thread bare.

There is a difference between in training and match fit.

Who out of an 11 -15 should he replace:

Ward, Postlewaite, Carson, Kok, Lowry should he replace ?
I'd put him on the bench for Exeter if ready.

Flannery played for Ballynahinch I believe

[clivemcl]

I bow to your superior knowledge Geoff. I'm not somebody who has ever been overly involved in rugby at much of a technical level, and so I wouldn't hold to my views very strongly on push back.

I do feel though that Kok competes at every part of the game more than many of his team mates, and without his level of commitment for the full 80 one each game, Ulster would be in a much worse situation this season than they already are.

Leicester Tigers are a better team than Connacht - but are you really suggesting that their tries were simply because they were great, and we were not as good. I felt more so, they were OK, and we weren't up to much.

I definitely believe we did things better against Connacht, and not simply because Connacht were worse competition.

Not sure I can agree on the youth thing. Maybe if you've given up on the season entirely, then sacrifice games for a slower career build among the young players. But if you still want to win games, you surely select the better players.

Of course, maybe that's what we are already doing. Maybe Murphy had half given up on Europe, gave Morgan another start, half planning to use Jack much more when we are left with only the URC to focus on?

Immediately, when he cam on, he played a lovely tip-on pass to give us some energy and forward momentum - much like you saw as common place in the Toulouse game before. Of course, Treadwell, struggled to catch it - that is another story.

But in terms of energy, spark, confidence, and belief - Murphy seems to have it in good supply.

I'm just keen to see more of it, and see if it rubs off on others.

[geoff999rugby]

You can do a young player more harm than good by over playing them.

[geoff999rugby]

I think we just have to accept that we are a couple of years away from being truly competitive i.e. 26/27

Even then we need an injection of real talent in the front 5 to make it work.
Hooker we will be ok.
There is some Hope (pun intended) in the 2nd row. Irvine could be decent as well.
At prop Wilson aside I would be very pleasantly surprised if someone comes through the ranks.
We need to sign, at least 1, and ideally 2, destructive scrummaging players.  
Clearly if its 2 one of them would have to IQ.

Kok works so hard and is a real team player.
However he is not someone with the speed, or x factor, to make something out of nothing.

In rugby a little improvement/difference in ability can make all the difference both at an individual level and at a team level.

[Pete330v2]

I was just pondering our position since the match at the weekend and we're not in a bad place considering the players we have on the physio bench. We aren't amongst the top table teams any more but I don't think there's a single Ulster fan, player or coach that thinks we are. I didn't have much hope for Europe this year anyway and I'd rather it was all over so the focus will be 100% on the URC, we can still retain our place in the Champs Cup and I hope we do, a year in the Challenge Cup is nothing to be ashamed of but I will still be hoping we're in the Champs Cup.
We need a replacement for Marty Moore, the need for a replacement should have been planned in case of his inevitable demise. Munster are pilfering Leinster's front row stocks for next year so pickings are going to be slim. Wilson is a great player but should be building his box of tricks behind a quality 1st choice player. Could we get a bit of special treatment from Davy Humps ? Unlikely.
Anyway, if everyone can get fit again for the URC run in I think we'd be in decent shape even without a scrum. With Stockdale, McCloskey, Hume, Lowry & Moore fit again mixed with the lads who've had very valuable game time over the last while I think we're better placed than many of us thought at the start of the season when this thread was doom and gloom.

[clivemcl]

Only 1 win in the last 7. I love how you're able to remain optimistic Pete.

But yes, we have a lot of top quality backs to come back in.

Any word on McIlroy? Season ending?

When are Stockdale, McCloskey, Hume, Lowry & Moore expected back?

[geoff999rugby]

Only 1 win in the last 7. I love how you're able to remain optimistic Pete.

Context is everything:

That includes top 2 teams in Europe
Another leading French side
English Champions
We had 14 men against Munster for most of the match and nearly won.
Cardiff was the only bad defeat.

Our next 5 opponents are not in that league
Exeter, Zebre, Benetton, Scarlets, Dragons

[carpet baboon]

Rob lyttle has been added to the Ulster squad for Friday nights match.

[Kingshu]

Good I thought we needed him earlier but guess he was training and getting his fitness back.

[Kingshu]

Ireland squad I find it hard to take sometimes, just in the fact that its much easier to get into the squad by wearing Blue. You need a lot less games in Blue to get a chance than you do for any other province has been loke that for a long time now. Lastest exaple is Hugh Cooney 21 yo making the development squad after 1 start for Leinster 87 mins, while Postlethwaite 22yo 18starts mixed between inside and outside centre 1200mins but its Cooney makes development squad and no doubt if in future theres a center needed for Ireland squad Cooney will get the nod having had experience of the camp and systems.
McCormick was the same at Autumn, has similar experience as McCarthy, but imo against tougher opposition and did get MoTM awards, but it was McCarthy selected, and makes it easier to be picked again.
Clarkson ahead of Wilson.
Doak even in his great first season has never been called into the squad even as a development player if he wore blue theres no doubt he'd have a number of caps by now.

These may be 50/50 but they always go the way of the Leinster player, making it easier for them to be seleted again.

[Redman]

It's sadly an acknowledged fact.

Personally, and though I do dislike his attitude, I think Doak can feel most aggrieved. He's been both better than Blade across the season and utterly outplayed him in their 1 vs 1 match up back in December. He's younger, in better form and has a higher potential ceiling.

McCarthy at least has Ireland caps and stepped in when they needed and they can say Postlethwaite went on Emerging Ireland so the enormity of the experience would be more beneficial for Cooney. Soft arguments I grant you but you can maybe see some logic for Farrell, Easterby and co. to convince themselves it's a coin toss that then always goes to Leinster. But I can't see any reason at all for picking Blade over Doak.

[Kingshu]

It's sadly an acknowledged fact.  

Personally, and though I do dislike his attitude, I think Doak can feel most aggrieved.  He's been both better than Blade across the season and utterly outplayed him in their 1 vs 1 match up back in December.  He's younger, in better form and has a higher potential ceiling.  

McCarthy at least has Ireland caps and stepped in when they needed and they can say Postlethwaite went on Emerging Ireland so the enormity of the experience would be more beneficial for Cooney.  Soft arguments I grant you but you can maybe see some logic for Farrell, Easterby and co. to convince themselves it's a coin toss that then always goes to Leinster.  But I can't see any reason at all for picking Blade over Doak.  

That McCarthy bit highlighs my point, in the Autumn when McCarthy and McCormick had both only played a handful of games, I though McCormick had played in the tougher ones and got PotM awards (McCarthy didnt win any player of the match awards), I thought out of the two it was McCormick deserved the call up, but even as 50/50 it went to the player in Blue, who now has Ireland caps and it will be very difficult for McCormick to be picked ahead of him now. If they want a greater representation of players from the provinces the 50/50 calls shouldn't always go to the player in Blue. Cooney, 1 Leinster cap and in the development squad. Doak McCann and Postlethwaite never even been in a development squad to at least get a fighting chance.

[geoff999rugby]

To be honest I've given up with Ireland - part of me hopes they have a bad 6N.

Cooney gets a development but Postlewaite doesn't - that's a farce

McCann again ignored (better to extend POM's swansong forever   )

Blade for Doak is a joke - Blade isn't even the best Scrum Half in Connacht.
I've often criticised Doak but he is playing at a different level to Blade this year.
Compounded by the fact that Ireland going into the tournament with JPG, Murray and Blade - all over 30 and the last two in decline
Ireland have three young 9s - Casey (injured), Murphy (development), Doak (ignored)


There is a clear and obvious bias in Irish rugby which is disgusting and will be to the long term detriment to Irish rugby.

There is a clear Provincial hierarchy
Top tier: Leinster
Second Tier: Munster (looks like they are getting NIQ strengthening next year)
Dont really matter: Connacht and Ulster

[LeinsterFan4life]

Could the guys that didn't get a call up to the development squad be in the 'A' squad? Perhaps that's why? They're playing in the A game so will be getting looked at anyway. Cooney might not even play in that.

On Gus McCarthy, he looks to be a serious talent. Took to internationals with ease and is forcing guys like Barron and perhaps now McKee to leave Leinster because he's leapfrogged them so quickly.

[Maine man]

Team up:
15. Stewart Moore (73)

14. Werner Kok (11)

13. Ben Carson (8)

12. Jude Postlethwaite (21)

11. Michael Lowry (114)

10. Jack Murphy (3)

9. Nathan Doak (77)



Eric O’Sullivan (126)
2. Rob Herring (244)

3. Scott Wilson (24)

Iain Henderson (Capt) (160)
5. Cormac Izuchukwu (36)

6. James McNabney (11)

7. Nick Timoney (156)

8. David McCann (57)



Replacements:

16. Tom Stewart (47)

17. Callum Reid (20)

18. Corrie Barrett (6)

19. Kieran Treadwell (168)

20. Harry Sheridan (36)

21. John Cooney (147)

22. Jake Flannery (15)

23. Rob Lyttle (64)

[Pete330v2]

That'll do nicely.
I love that youthful centre partnership that plays like a much more experienced pair. Lowry suits the wing and Moore's place is 15 so happy to see them in those positions.
Looking forward to this one for a change

[clivemcl]

Is Morgan injured?
Or has he been dumped down the pecking order?

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