Glasgow & Edinburgh Discussion Thread 31: The Roadmap for Success Vs The Perpetual Roadworks of Incompetence

[NeilyBroon]

First topic message reminder :

As requested, another thread connected by the M8. Two teams about as comparable as Adam Peaty and Eric the Eel.

Will Glasgow build on their title win next season?

Will Edinburgh even make the top half of the table?

Speculation and more on another volume of the patter papers.

[jimbopip]

My fun this Christmas will looking forward to the return game.
Bigson and his wife , Flaming Redhead, are over for an early Chrimbo dinner today. Served at full time. Tomorrow we're of with the grandkids to 'so enchanted train ride.

[BigGee]

Well the one consolation For Edinburgh fans is that they surely can't be that bad in the second half!

Or can they?

[BigGee]

Glasgow come straight out of the traps and break away immediately

Ball out to Steyn who scores in the corner

26-0 Glasgow and a BP

[BigGee]

Edinburgh go through 5 or 6 phases then kick it away

[BigGee]

DVDM almost gets away but great defence from Horne

[tigertattie]

Edinburgh tactic:

Can you get the ball to Duhan? Yes: then do it. No: run right into someone or kick the ball away.

Lucky Edinburgh is a nice place to live or Duhan would have gone looking for a competent rugby team to ply his trade

[BigGee]

The face of frustration on Duhan

You reckon he regrets re-signing?

[BigGee]

Oh dear, another one for Dobie, who has looked sharp as a tack since he came on

33-0 Glasgow

[mikey_dragon]

This seems to be quite comprehensive for Glasgow, they keep getting better with Franco Smith in charge.

[BigGee]

This seems to be quite comprehensive for Glasgow, they keep getting better with Franco Smith in charge.

They have been scary good today and with a much changed team.

Edinburgh it is fair to say, also been very poor

[NeilyBroon]

This seems to be quite comprehensive for Glasgow, they keep getting better with Franco Smith in charge.

They have been scary good today and with a much changed team.

Edinburgh it is fair to say, also been very poor

They just don't seem interested at all. It reminds me of the Scotland pastings of old when the players seemed to shrug and accept they're going to lose.

It seems one team represents pre 2014 Scottish rugby and the other represents the future. Edinburgh need a complete do-over, clear out of deadwood and to actually use their academy players properly.

[BigGee]

Well at least they won't get nilled

That would have been beyond embarrassing

[RDW]

This seems to be quite comprehensive for Glasgow, they keep getting better with Franco Smith in charge.

They have been scary good today and with a much changed team.

Edinburgh it is fair to say, also been very poor

They just don't seem interested at all. It reminds me of the Scotland pastings of old when the players seemed to shrug and accept they're going to lose.

It seems one team represents pre 2014 Scottish rugby and the other represents the future. Edinburgh need a complete do-over and clear out of deadwood and to actually use their academy players properly.

Problem is that deadwood includes half the Scotland team!

[NeilyBroon]

This seems to be quite comprehensive for Glasgow, they keep getting better with Franco Smith in charge.

They have been scary good today and with a much changed team.

Edinburgh it is fair to say, also been very poor

They just don't seem interested at all. It reminds me of the Scotland pastings of old when the players seemed to shrug and accept they're going to lose.

It seems one team represents pre 2014 Scottish rugby and the other represents the future. Edinburgh need a complete do-over and clear out of deadwood and to actually use their academy players properly.

Problem is that deadwood includes half the Scotland team!

Who are nailed on though? Darcy Graham definitely. I'm not convinced by VdM beyond the odd freak try tbh. I'm more a fan of the steyn style all rounder, like Sean Maitland was for Scotland.

Even schoe isn't nailed on anymore. The rest like price, Healey etc aren't even in the conversation!

[BigGee]

This seems to be quite comprehensive for Glasgow, they keep getting better with Franco Smith in charge.

They have been scary good today and with a much changed team.

Edinburgh it is fair to say, also been very poor

They just don't seem interested at all. It reminds me of the Scotland pastings of old when the players seemed to shrug and accept they're going to lose.

It seems one team represents pre 2014 Scottish rugby and the other represents the future. Edinburgh need a complete do-over and clear out of deadwood and to actually use their academy players properly.

Problem is that deadwood includes half the Scotland team!

How many of those Edinburgh players should be playing for Scotland?

It does beg the question

You would not pick Schoeman, Gilchrist or Ashman on their performances. Steyn has also been better than the 2 Edinburgh wingers

Just saying

[RDW]

This seems to be quite comprehensive for Glasgow, they keep getting better with Franco Smith in charge.

They have been scary good today and with a much changed team.

Edinburgh it is fair to say, also been very poor

They just don't seem interested at all. It reminds me of the Scotland pastings of old when the players seemed to shrug and accept they're going to lose.

It seems one team represents pre 2014 Scottish rugby and the other represents the future. Edinburgh need a complete do-over and clear out of deadwood and to actually use their academy players properly.

Problem is that deadwood includes half the Scotland team!

How many of those Edinburgh players should be playing for Scotland?

It does beg the question

You would not pick Schoeman, Gilchrist or Ashman on their performances. Steyn has also been better than the 2 Edinburgh wingers

Just saying

Yes, but we know Schoeman, Ashman, Gilchrist's, Ritchie, Duhan and Graham will be in the 23 for the Italy game at the least

[BigGee]

This seems to be quite comprehensive for Glasgow, they keep getting better with Franco Smith in charge.

They have been scary good today and with a much changed team.

Edinburgh it is fair to say, also been very poor

They just don't seem interested at all. It reminds me of the Scotland pastings of old when the players seemed to shrug and accept they're going to lose.

It seems one team represents pre 2014 Scottish rugby and the other represents the future. Edinburgh need a complete do-over and clear out of deadwood and to actually use their academy players properly.

Problem is that deadwood includes half the Scotland team!

How many of those Edinburgh players should be playing for Scotland?

It does beg the question

You would not pick Schoeman, Gilchrist or Ashman on their performances. Steyn has also been better than the 2 Edinburgh wingers

Just saying

Yes, but we know Schoeman, Ashman, Gilchrist's, Ritchie, Duhan and Graham will be in the 23 for the Italy game at the least

I guess we have to see

They have got next weekend to redeem themselves I guess

You got to say, that was the most one sided spanking I gave ever seen in this fixture and it was full strength Edinburgh against well rotated Glasgow

[bsando]

This seems to be quite comprehensive for Glasgow, they keep getting better with Franco Smith in charge.

They have been scary good today and with a much changed team.

Edinburgh it is fair to say, also been very poor

They just don't seem interested at all. It reminds me of the Scotland pastings of old when the players seemed to shrug and accept they're going to lose.

It seems one team represents pre 2014 Scottish rugby and the other represents the future. Edinburgh need a complete do-over and clear out of deadwood and to actually use their academy players properly.

Problem is that deadwood includes half the Scotland team!

How many of those Edinburgh players should be playing for Scotland?

It does beg the question

You would not pick Schoeman, Gilchrist or Ashman on their performances. Steyn has also been better than the 2 Edinburgh wingers

Just saying

Yes, but we know Schoeman, Ashman, Gilchrist's, Ritchie, Duhan and Graham will be in the 23 for the Italy game at the least

I guess we have to see

They have got next weekend to redeem themselves I guess

You got to say, that was the most one sided spanking I gave ever seen in this fixture and it was full strength Edinburgh against well rotated Glasgow

We know there’s nothing wrong with the players because they all did well in the autum for Scotland. The  Coaching ticket for me is not working. Everitt seems a nice bloke but he’s struggled to make an impression. That Edinburgh side should have made it a tough game for Glasgow given the changes Franco made. Instead Glasgow dominated.

[BigGee]

Not sure you can just blame it all on the coach

You can't just be a good player when it suits you!

The coach did not tell Schoeman or Sykes to give away stupid YCs

Surely these 'good international players' need to take some ownership of their own performances

[BigGee]

27.5K crowd at Hampden Park

I suspect we may well see Glasgow back playing here if we get some home playoff games at the end of the season.

I don't know what the break even point is, in terms of the crowd against the cost of hiring the stadium, but I am pretty confident that a crowd like that takes us well into the black.

It is a professional game we support and the club needs to maximize its income.

[Dollar Bill]

Glasgow are light years ahead of Edinburgh….so much more urgent… ruck speed tremendous… no aimless kicking….

Edinburgh are the complete opposite….They have no-one in the back five who can carry the ball up over the gainline and as a result their ruck speed is glacial. They are so easy to play against as they are so easily contained up front.

Glasgow can make 11 changes and still be more cohesive than Edinburgh who rely on individual moments of brilliance rather than working as a team…. So much less than the sum of their parts.

Santa needs to bring two locks and 2 number 8’s to EH12

[tigertattie]

Woah there guys. I’m first to say Edinburgh were honking but let’s not forget that most of that honk came from Ali price who made Frodo the ponderous look like DuPont on eccies.

Anyone, absolutely anyone, who thinks Duhan and Darcy are not the best wingers in Scotland needs their heads read.

[NeilyBroon]

This seems to be quite comprehensive for Glasgow, they keep getting better with Franco Smith in charge.

They have been scary good today and with a much changed team.

Edinburgh it is fair to say, also been very poor

They just don't seem interested at all. It reminds me of the Scotland pastings of old when the players seemed to shrug and accept they're going to lose.

It seems one team represents pre 2014 Scottish rugby and the other represents the future. Edinburgh need a complete do-over and clear out of deadwood and to actually use their academy players properly.

Problem is that deadwood includes half the Scotland team!

How many of those Edinburgh players should be playing for Scotland?

It does beg the question

You would not pick Schoeman, Gilchrist or Ashman on their performances. Steyn has also been better than the 2 Edinburgh wingers

Just saying

Yes, but we know Schoeman, Ashman, Gilchrist's, Ritchie, Duhan and Graham will be in the 23 for the Italy game at the least

I guess we have to see

They have got next weekend to redeem themselves I guess

You got to say, that was the most one sided spanking I gave ever seen in this fixture and it was full strength Edinburgh against well rotated Glasgow

We know there’s nothing wrong with the players because they all did well in the autum for Scotland. The  Coaching ticket for me is not working. Everitt seems a nice bloke but he’s struggled to make an impression. That Edinburgh side should have made it a tough game for Glasgow given the changes Franco made. Instead Glasgow dominated.

I partly agree but Edinburgh have been through so many coaching changes and seen no improvement that I struggle to believe it's anything other than a workplace culture issue.

The closest anyone got to fixing it was cockers then it all fell apart under Blair as soon as he lost the changing room. You can just see the difference in attitude to Glasgow, with the exception of players like Ritchie and Graham and a couple of the young boys, the rest look like they couldn't give a toss unless they're against easy opposition. Like Scotland circa. early 2000s.

They tried the rebranding and that didn't work, I think someone needs to put a lot of those players in their place, but also give them a goal to play towards. I think Glasgow play for each other as well as their fans. Edinburgh don't seem to be interested in either. I reckon toonie dropping some of them based on club performance wouldn't do much harm to the national squad tbh.

[NeilyBroon]

Woah there guys. I’m first to say Edinburgh were honking but let’s not forget that most of that honk came from Ali price who made Frodo the ponderous look like DuPont on eccies.

Anyone, absolutely anyone, who thinks Duhan and Darcy are not the best wingers in Scotland needs their heads read.

Darcy absolutely one of the best, duhan I put in the tim visser camp. Great tries and breaks but doesn't offer anything when we're on the back foot, especially recently I don't think he's offered much. That said, steyn has been injured so he's currently the best option there.

[tigertattie]

Remember Duhan has started passing now too.

Top Scotland try scorer. British lion. Freak of nature.

Yes he’s not the best defender but in attack he’s unplayable. He also needs to be used far more in chasing kicks. He’s a generational talent

[BigGee]

Steyn is just a classy rugby player.

Undoubtedly not as flash as the Edinburgh pair, but better than both defensively and certainly on work rate.

I am not sure we have yet been in a position where Toonie has had to make a genuine choice about his wings, as someone has always been injured.

It may be a call he has to make this 6N.

I am not even including Kyle Rowe in this discussion, who is also showing himself to be a very accomplished rugby player.

[tigertattie]

Steyn is indeed good. He’s not got that X factor of the Edinburgh boys but he is s more versatile. Sadly for him, lucky for Scotland, it n she’s him a very good bench option

[demosthenes]

Remember Duhan has started passing now too.

Top Scotland try scorer. British lion. Freak of nature.

Yes he’s not the best defender but in attack he’s unplayable. He also needs to be used far more in chasing kicks. He’s a generational talent

Well, he looked a thoroughly p****d off 'generational talent' this afternoon.

[tigertattie]

Don’t blame him. Getting the occasional hospital pass and having to just make something from nothing all the time. Hes too good a player to be on that current Edinburgh team. I’d be pissed off of I were him

[jimbopip]

Tiger, a winger at rugby is akin to a striker at football. Gary Lineker once said the skill wasn't being in the right place at the right time but being in the right place EVERY time. Duhan all to often receives the ball in the wrong place. He does this for Scotland too. Given time and space he is lethal: is he just not very good at creating space and time?

[demosthenes]

Don’t blame him. Getting the occasional hospital pass and having to just make something from nothing all the time. Hes too good a player to be on that current Edinburgh team. I’d be pissed off of I were him

But he's just signed up for more. He could have pissed off elsewhere. Or could he? Maybe other coaches don't rate his overall game and think his occasional bangs aren't worth substantial bucks.

[EWT Spoons]

Just listened to Everitt's post match interview on the BBC rugby pod.

Embarrassing.

He talked about how the tries at the end showed what could be achieved when following the plan. So does that mean for 70mins the players didn't follow the plan? If so that's pretty damming on his ability to coach them.

He also said 'that wasn't the real Edinburgh for 40 minutes' (paraphrasing) not sure what specific 40 minutes he was referring to, given we were shocking for all but the final 5-10.

I'm beginning to wonder if the sru finances are so bad Edinburgh are trying to help by not getting bonuses and boosting the coffers through yellow card fines.

[EWT Spoons]

He might not be the sole issue, but he's not helping. Everitt needs to go. Edinburgh don't have a plan that goes beyond 1st receiver and even that seems to be too complicated as the players can't execute it.

The players are capable as shown at international level, but under this coaching ticket they struggle to be anything more than ponderous.

Probably not helped by having a collection of terrible halfbacks.

It's incredibly frustrating to be a supporter of a team with players and coaches who look and sound like they genuinely couldn't give a toss.

[RDW]

That's Schoeman yellow was so dumb. It's probably the most stupid thing he's done on the rugby pitch - what was he even trying to do? He was hitting a player nowhere near the ball, who if he had cleared out wouldn't have made any difference.

There's good players at Edinburgh doing really stupid things.

[RDW]

Just listened to Everitt's post match interview on the BBC rugby pod.

Embarrassing.

He talked about how the tries at the end showed what could be achieved when following the plan. So does that mean for 70mins the players didn't follow the plan? If so that's pretty damming on his ability to coach them.

He also said 'that wasn't the real Edinburgh for 40 minutes' (paraphrasing) not sure what specific 40 minutes he was referring to, given we were shocking for all but the final 5-10.

I'm beginning to wonder if the sru finances are so bad Edinburgh are trying to help by not getting bonuses and boosting the coffers through yellow card fines.

I'd love a journalist to ask why they don't stick to the plan, particularly as this isn't the first time it has happened this month never mind this season!

Everitt also said he's not going to be screaming and shouting in the changing room after the game - maybe that is actually needed.

[demosthenes]

Spoons - there were a couple of Edinburgh fans in front of me yesterday who said much the same as you - only in slightly less considered terms. They left, not even finishing their beers, on 65 minutes.

[BigGee]

Tempting though it is to gloat about a victory like that. In the cold light of day, it does not feel like a good thing for Scottish Rugby to have one of their 2 professional teams playing so poorly, especially in the showcase derby match.

And it is not like it is a one off either.

The coach will undoubtedly get the blame for this even if it not all his fault. It is hard to see him surviving if Edinburgh don't turn up again for next week's game.

But what happens if they do sack him, will any other coach do any better with this group of players who just don't seem to want to be coached.

The new CEO starts in January and surely sorting this out has got to be at the top of his agenda.
Dodson sacked Danny Wilson for a lot less than this and to be fair to him, he let the players know that they had cost their coach his job.

[BigGee]

Edinburgh certainly need to make a few changes for next week. They have got to show there are some consequences for such a performance as well.

Boan Ventor surely needs to start over Schoeman.

Muncaster needs to start over Bradbury

Harrison needs to start over Ashman

Healy needs to be given another start over Thompson, who had an absolute shocker of a game.

Maybe bring in a few other youngsters like McConnell as well.

Edinburgh best performance recently was their away game to Gloucester, when they rested their test players and threw in some of the youngsters who played with some real spirit and really looked like they wanted the chance.

It really does not seem like they have got anything to lose.

[EWT Spoons]

I think we'll largely be unchanged for the murrayfield leg. Our best performance of the season was last week where our defence and attack clicked, against what is now seemingly a terrible Bayonne side. Which possibly gave false hope going into yesterday's game.

The team that started that game was near identical to the one starting against Glasgow, injuries aside.

We could try throwing some youngsters in and generally I'd be all for it, but it feels like it could have a negative impact on their development. The best teams bring youth into settled winning sides, whereas we're an absolute basket case and putting them up against a team of Glasgow's calibre could mentally scar them.

Problem Edinburgh have is the 23 we put out is probably as good as we've got, and they should be good enough to at least give Glasgow a game. However under the current coaching and culture at the club we're miles off.

Remember when these games used to be an audition for the 6n? Based on club form a lot of the Edinburgh lads don't deserve to be anywhere near the international stage.

[BigGee]

I think the Bayonne game was a red herring, they clearly were not interested in it and they should have seen it for what it was, not given themselves a pat on the back.

Against  Gloucester, away from home in a hostile Kingsholm they at least looked up for the fight.

[RDW]

Edinburgh certainly need to make a few changes for next week. They have got to show there are some consequences for such a performance as well.

Boan Ventor surely needs to start over Schoeman.

Muncaster needs to start over Bradbury

Harrison needs to start over Ashman

Healy needs to be given another start over Thompson, who had an absolute shocker of a game.

Maybe bring in a few other youngsters like McConnell as well.

Edinburgh best performance recently was their away game to Gloucester, when they rested their test players and threw in some of the youngsters who played with some real spirit and really looked like they wanted the chance.

It really does not seem like they have got anything to lose.

As much as I agree with this I'm almost certain he won't do that. He's got form with this - he tends to give people a 2nd chance. And Edinburgh have offered him many of those opportunities. Can't imagine Townsend will want the Scotland players dropped either.

Tom English said it on the Scottish rugby pod a few weeks ago after the last bad defeat and the same applies here - it'll be absolutely no surprise whatsoever if Edinburgh show a reaction and put in a strong performance this weekend, maybe even winning. They'll say they've learned their lessons, and that was more of a true reflection of where they are as a time. The problem is they won't have, and a bad result will happen again all for the cycle to continue!

[EST]

Logging on after a long time off to pass comment on yesterdays game.

One thing that the Franco era at Glasgow has proven is that in Rugby a good coach, who can communicate well and instil a strong work ethic in their team can yield massive improvements in performance. Maybe because at its heart rugby is a relatively simple game, and that if you have a clear plan on what you're doing and bucket loads of effort, then good things will happen. Nothing exemplifies this more than the two back-rows, where two Edinburgh cast-offs in Miller and Mann both comprehensively outplayed their opposite numbers.

Edinburgh were absolutely woeful, and Everitt must be on the shoogliest of pegs. That being said, pretty much no coach has ever managed to get a tune out of Edinburgh as a pro-rugby team over a sustained period, whatever is wrong at the club runs very deep indeed.

[EWT Spoons]

Oh I absolutely agree the Bayonne game was a red herring, but if you put 50+ points over a team who claim they want to win the tournament then you have to be happy and it's easy for a coach to point at that game as a success.

Gloucester were not good when we played them, had we put out a few more of the recognised starters I think Edinburgh would have won. For me that game was just an okay performance. Not great, but not bad. Which actually for Edinburgh is as much as we can hope for these days.

I think both games don't really tell us anything about what works and what doesn't work for this side.

He likely won't change anything, but if it was me, I'd be dropping Sykes who's done nothing to justify being a starting lock. He's just tall, aside from that he doesn't really offer anything other than a mean pick 'n' mix side business, but I'm not sure it's enough.

I'd drop price, I know it only leaves shiel who I've suggested in the past isn't up to it, but he at least has pace. Price has nothing.

I'd stick with Thomson, he was terrible against Glasgow, but Healy has consistently been terrible against everyone, so it's the lesser of two evils.

12-15 contains at least 1 world class player, and no one sticking their hands up to displace any of the incumbents.

Only changes I can possibly see is if hill is fit he might come into the side, muncaster might replace Bradbury or crosbie and it's possible Healy starts, but as I say I wouldn't make that change. If we could I'd make sweeping changes and tell the dropped players to buck up their ideas or they'll not play, but we don't have the autonomy or the depth to do it.

[RDW]

Sam Skinner should warrant a starting place now he's fully fit and had a few games off the bench. He's a Premierships and Champions Cup winning lock so should know something about winning mentality. Good chance to stake a claim pre 6N too.

[George Carlin]

There's only so much you can do if your side concedes 10 first half penalties and 2 yellow cards. That's godawful by any metric. Sounds like nothing went right for Edinburgh yesterday and that's not great for Scottish rugby.

Big Dooey has been very unlucky with teams. Worcester folding and then Edinburgh's class of diddies 2024.

[TJ]

Dear west coasters. I have been an Edinburgh fan since professionalism started because I live in Edinburgh. But I went to school in Glasgow many years ago. Can I be an honorary Weegie please? I promise to throw away my soap and craft beers and instead use Lynx and tennants lager.
please

[BigGee]

In a bit of other news unrelated to the derby match.

Alan Dell is released from his contract to pursue other opportunities.

As he has hardly played under Franco, that is not a massive surprise, though it was never entirely clear why he did not play. Maybe Franco did not rate him, or his heart was not in it ant more. Either way it seems a good idea to get him off the payroll and hopefully open up something for him to do either inside or outside of rugby.

[Mcsweens]

27.5K crowd at Hampden Park

I suspect we may well see Glasgow back playing here if we get some home playoff games at the end of the season.

I don't know what the break even point is, in terms of the crowd against the cost of hiring the stadium, but I am pretty confident that a crowd like that takes us well into the black.

It is a professional game we support and the club needs to maximize its income.

Great to see so many people come along, and great to see Glasgow trying to grow to game and bring the team to the city, as it were.

But by all accounts, Hampden was a shocking stadium experience. Reddit users were reporting toilets that were even worse than Murrayfield, and 30-40 minute queues for a beer. This is the problem at a football stadium with different licensing restrictions, but you'd have thought this would have been anticipated and mitigated. Add to that the usual Hampden complaints of it being a b@ll-ache to get to, and poor sightlines.
Get it alternating between Ibrox and Parkhead instead.

[tigertattie]

Have a very merry Christmas everyone

Except Jimbo. You’ve to remain sober

[BigGee]

27.5K crowd at Hampden Park

I suspect we may well see Glasgow back playing here if we get some home playoff games at the end of the season.

I don't know what the break even point is, in terms of the crowd against the cost of hiring the stadium, but I am pretty confident that a crowd like that takes us well into the black.

It is a professional game we support and the club needs to maximize its income.

Great to see so many people come along, and great to see Glasgow trying to grow to game and bring the team to the city, as it were.

But by all accounts, Hampden was a shocking stadium experience. Reddit users were reporting toilets that were even worse than Murrayfield, and 30-40 minute queues for a beer. This is the problem at a football stadium with different licensing restrictions, but you'd have thought this would have been anticipated and mitigated. Add to that the usual Hampden complaints of it being a b@ll-ache to get to, and poor sightlines.
Get it alternating between Ibrox and Parkhead instead.

Mixed opinions about the experience on the Glasgow Warriors forum, probably marginally more positive than negative.

Probably worth saying as well that Scotstoun is no great consumer experience so the bar for improvement is not high!

And I say that as a Glasgow fan who is coming up from London to watch the Racing game in January

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