England's winter of cricket 2024/25

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Mousley is really fun to watch. I've no idea if there's longevity in what he's doing. I'm really happy that England are giving it a go though.

Yorkers from seamers have become less regular at the death as the margin for error is so small. It always was a small margin, but, if you hit it, then it couldn't get hit. Shots like the scoop changed that though. There's plenty of batters who can now turn a very good yorker into a boundary behind square on either side. Yorkers are still a weapon, but it's in an arsenal with other options. As opposed to guys like Flintoff who had a brilliant ODI record and rep as a death bowler largely by trying to bowl 5 yorkers an over.

Mousley bowling 75 mph yorkers off 3 paces in the Hundred was both effective and just really intriguing. Logically, 'spinners' are usually more accurate than seamers. The tiny run up that he flies through gives less time for a batter to shift their feet, look to scoop, etc. Plus, if they shape to scoop very early, then Mousley can take all the pace off, bowl a regular off-break and there's suddenly not enough there for the batter to work with. It's really interesting.

Part of me suspects that he might be found out. Trying to bowl yorkers off 3 paces like that, all from the shoulder, he does seem liable to bowl full tosses more often than others. Might batters adjust to the tiny runup and basically play him like a 75mph medium pacer bowling off a regular, longer runup? If Paul Collingwood was doing the same thing at the death off his runup then he'd be hit into space! Mousley really isn't putting much action on the ball either. It does seem to just be rapid arm balls. They've been very effective at times though. He might prove to be a one trick pony that gets worked out.

As said though, I'm just glad they're giving him the chance to find out either way. I really wish they'd done that with Benny Howell when he was at his peak. There was a period when Howell's stats in the middle overs were absurd. He was a similarly odd bowler. His cricinfo page says "right-arm medium". In reality, he was a 'quick spinner'. He had about a dozen slower balls that did different things. Many were genuinely deviating off the pitch too. Batters just couldn't hit him for a long period. He was very tough to get away square due to the pace. He bowled wicket to wicket with smart fields, got a ton of players caught at long-on and long-off with miss hits down the ground from the battery of slower balls. Some would dip. Some would turn. Batters couldn't line him up. England just weren't interested at that point in some weird medium pacer though, sadly. I think that Howell bowling in tandem with Dilly in the middle overs of T20i's could've been a brilliant weapon.

I'm glad they're having a look at something different this time. He shouldn't have played the ODIs but that's the schedule and having a T20 squad for 50 over games, so obviously not Mousley's fault!

Atkinson dominating this partnership...reasonably enough as he's also dominating the strike. Stokes won't mind keeping in the back seat while he's going like this . Lead racing towards that desired 100 ...

New ball hasn't done as much as NZ would've liked I think. Something for England to keep an eye on

Atkinson goes, but what a knock to get England to that three digit lead.

Kiwis get Atkinson after a fair bit of damage - lead now at 97, as Carse joins stokes.

Handy cricketer Atkinson - clearly can hold a bat. Could he develop into a properly good 8?

Atkinson fun comes to an end...done his job though , 48 at speed ; and ensured the lead is going into three figures. Not surprised to see the way things have gone this morning: all the bowlers have done a lot of work , so even with a newish ball and a couple of wickets taken the chances were some easy runs would come as the overs went on...

NZ have lost the plot a bit here - just allowed Stokes a single to end that over (appreciate Carse is no bunny, but surely you want him to take the strike)

Rather gone from a competitive game to a fairly damaging lead in one session.

Strong session, shouldn't be losing from this position.

140/3 at better than run a ball...classic Bazball. Lead of 111. Assuming UK residents will now turn in , feeling fairly comfortable, I promise to keep an eye on things for you (tons of rain here meaning my club games are not likely to proceed)

alfie wrote:140/3 at better than run a ball...classic Bazball.  Lead of 111. Assuming UK residents will now turn in , feeling fairly comfortable,  I promise to keep an eye on things for you (tons of rain here meaning my club games are not likely to proceed)

I'll stay with you in cyber space, Alfie, for another 15 minutes to see how many more NZ can shell. One already since the resumption.

Carse survived a chance when he skied one over point , but has followed up with some lusty blows to reach 24 from 17 balls. However Stokes is held deep on the on side and goes for 80....485/9.

Nice to have your company for the tail end of the innings , guildford...and kind of you to earlier flag my prediction of catching perhaps being a major factor in the contest To be honest I reckon it is always a big influence in games between fairly well matched teams...but I didn't expect such a spectacular endorsement so quickly ! Nz have had a 'mare.

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Kiwis get Atkinson after a fair bit of damage - lead now at 97, as Carse joins stokes.

Handy cricketer Atkinson - clearly can hold a bat. Could he develop into a properly good 8?

I'd say he's already better than a number 9. A bit of an 8.5 currently. There's clearly talent there. I would have no issues with batting depth if Atkinson and Carse were coming in at 8 and 9, even if the 10 and 11 were much weaker. They're both really good lower order batters.

Woakes/Atkinson/Carse at 8/9/10 is approaching as strong as you'll get. It's at Bresnan/Broad/Swann levels of depth. That was Broad actually batting properly as well. Before a bouncer in the face, then swinging with his eyes closed phase. Those were the days of Flower saying you should average 40 runs for the 7th wicket partnership, 30 for the 8th, 20 for the 9th and 10 for the 10th. The reasoning being that on average, you'd be adding 100 runs for the tail doing that.

We had a Curran/Woakes/Wood/Broad 8/9/10/11 at one point too. Which is pretty insane even if that was Broad on the decline as a batter.

Curran/Overton/Robinson was another very good 8/9/10. I don't think all three had F-C tons at that point, though they do now. All three can bat to varying degrees either way. Though not the sharpest Test seam attack...

Carse rather proving the above point here. Very useful hitting.

And Bash pushes the lead past 150!

Deep batting paying off for England here. Carse can swing freely as the lead nears 150. Going to be a long way back for NZ...though you never know with Williamson. All out now as Bashir gets over ambitious but 499 is decent , eh ?

499 all out as I head to bed.

With a lead above 150, England are clearly in control. Brook, Stokes, Atkinson and Carse have all contributed valuably today but New Zealand have continued to hamper themselves. More dropped catches and, as Harmison expressed it, fielders too regularly positioned in hope rather than as part of a meaningful plan.

alfie wrote:Nice to have your company for the tail end of the innings , guildford...and kind of you to earlier flag my prediction of catching perhaps being a major factor in the contest       To be honest I reckon it is always a big influence in games between fairly well matched teams...but I didn't expect such a spectacular endorsement so quickly  ! Nz have had a 'mare.  

My pleasure, Alfie, and absolutely.

Agree KC about those late order bats. Very handy...though of course selection has to be wary of over emphasis on a bowler's secondary role : still have to make sure your attack is properly potent. The good thing is both Atkinson, and now Carse , are off to rather useful starts as Test bowlers...

Woakes strikes in his second over.. Latham nicely caught low down by Brook at slip Woakes looking more on the money early in this innings.

Gets better for England as Atkinson takes a great diving catch at short mid on. Conway attempted to pull a short ball from Carse but didn't get it right and he's gone for just 8 ...NZ in heaps of trouble at 23/2.

51/2 and not much doing for the pacers now on this slow pitch. Bashir coming on to have a go just before tea. Ravindra seems happy to see him and takes eight from his first over ...think England will have to work a bit to get another eight wickets ; but they'll be glad to have collected the two openers cheaply. Williamson has just reached 9000 Test runs which is Kiwi history : he is some player.

And here is tea at 62/2 after 18 overs. Ravindra and Williamson have looked pretty comfortable in their partnership so work to do for the tourists. But they still lead by 89 so will count that another good session.

Perfect restart for England . Carse bounces Ravindra, pulls high to Bethell at cow corner...64/3

A bewildering side note for me then : for some reason my attempt to type "Bethell" initially resulted in the spell prediction gizmo trying to post it as " Netherlands ".... I have seen some odd ones but reckon that takes the cake...

Williamson and Mitchell have steadied the ship with a stand now of 57 , no alarms.32 overs down so probably less on the ball for the pace men and Bashir a little expensive so far ; 32 from four overs. Williamson has his fifty , Mitchell starting to look relaxed on 28. Still 30 behind so need to take this onward and up...

Big Moment ! Woakes has trapped Williamson lbw with a nip-backer... he's reviewed...but hitting clearly and umpires call on impact so he has to go for a fine 61. NZ still trail by 18 as Blundell arrives. Woakes' day keeps getting better ...

And two in two as Blundell given caught behind first ball ! Or is it ? Review called.......but a clear edge so Woakes is on a hat trick...

Phillips saves the hat trick. But a superb over from Woakes , transformed from the rather under prepared looking bowler of the first innings. NZ rocking at 133/5 and if another one falls now this might yet finish today...

...well unlikely today given only an hour left at the most . But certainly this game has moved on rapidly this afternoon. Pitch is blameless but England have persevered and maintained their intensity pretty well ...and reaping the rewards in this last few minutes.

Stokes continues to mix things up with Bashir back into the attack again...he clearly doesn't want to overburden any of his pace men. Bashir has been a bit expensive today but he did get four in the first innings. Presumably we have another half hour to go as I'm sure we must be behind the over rate as usual

Phillips in trouble here...given lbw to Carse but reviewed...could be high ? No : he's dead unlucky there , I think , ball seems to be barely skimming the bails but umpires call sees him on his way and NZ effectively 2/6 with ten minutes or so to go. Won't be much play tomorrow.

Pressing to finish this , Stokes brings Atkinson back for Bashir...only going to have a couple of overs , I think. But just conceivable a couple more quick wickets could bring the extra half hour into play.

No...getting a bit carried away there , as was the commentator. Only 6 wickets down so this will be the close one way or another in the next few minutes. Might get one more over in despite some gardening from Mitchell And indeed one more over , the 49th. Smith will have defence on his mind...

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So stumps drawn at 155/6. NZ just four runs in front with as many wickets in hand : will need Mitchell to produce a "Botham 1981" performance to get back into this one. Almost a perfect day for England and plenty of excitement for the spectators. Goodnight/good morning all...

NZ have slipped too deep in a hole.
Coming out of it is not impossible but will require a couple of low probability events to occur
Mitchell, debutant all rounder Smith and couple of their bowlers who can hold the bat cobble 150-200 runs from here ...
And then Eng collapse in chase....

Most likely will be an under 100 target that Eng will easily polish off

alfie wrote:So stumps drawn at 155/6.  NZ just four runs in front with as many wickets in hand :  will need Mitchell to produce a "Botham 1981" performance to get back into this one. Almost a perfect day for England and plenty of excitement for the spectators. Goodnight/good morning all...

Well they've made him look like Bradman before, so why not Botham? Fingers crossed its an easy rather than tense chase!

NZ, as has been rightly said above, will need something special to pull this one out of the fire.

Lady Luck has certainly been with England. First, the multiple drops and then the close LBWs.

They're fortunate Williamson wasn't able to produce the really big one in either innings although NZ will be pleased their main man seems to be in form.

Looking at the stats, the last four times Williamson has reached 50 he has failed to go on to a century. But in the 12 times he'd passed 50 before that he had gone on to a 100 on 11 occasions with the only "blip" being a 52 not out which signalled the end of the match.

With Kohli seeming in form again if his hundred in Perth is anything to go by, the one of the "Big Four" struggling at the moment is Steve Smith.

One wonders how long before Brook is spoken of in Big Four terms. He's reached 2,000 Test runs quicker than any Englishman save Herbert Sutcliffe. You reckon given his overseas record he'd fancy playing all his Tests away from home.

sirfredperry wrote:  One wonders how long before Brook is spoken of in Big Four terms  

Brook, Jaiswal, Kamindu & Rachin are already being spoken of as the next gen Big-4 or Fab-4

Excellent day for England and victory looming into view.

Atkinson and Carse, through both disciplines of batting and bowling, although Atkinson's been a bit quieter with the ball in this test, are looking like probable picks for the starting XI in Perth next year. Even with Archer and Wood trying to get back amongst it. Know it's very early for Carse, but he's had such a strong start, and if he can add a 20-25avg with the bat then it gives a further argument for him to be picked.

It was a really good bowling effort on a slow pitch. Ones where you really have to graft. The new ball did for both openers, although Conway's shot was horrendous, and England really stuck to their task throughout. Bit of fortune in both the dismissals for Williamson and Phillips, yes, though my finger was up for Williamson and not for Phillips. Full credit to Woakes for his tenacity after a tough first innings.

Over 1,000 runs in this test and just the one centurion. Williamson, highly unusual for him not to convert either half century.

A lead of four and six down. Hopefully England bowl NZ out with the lead below 100 and have zero drama in securing the win. NZ would probably take a lead of 150 from here, and try to instigate panic with the new ball.

Excellent work by England - both with the latter half of our innings, and obviously with the ball.

Has been stated on here many times, but it really is encouraging that Atkinson and Carse appear to be at worst options for the XI, if they continue in recent form, they will be starters. Their clear ability with the bat (and to play pace) is very handy, and our best XIs have been built with bowlers who can counter attack and chip in with handy 30-50 odds.
I think overseas both should be batting ahead of Woakes when he plays, actually.

Bowling wise good to see Woakes take advantage of his opportunity - I don't think he should be an automatic pick overseas, especially in light of improved batting from other seamers, but he would be a handy player to have around the group and for the odd game if pitch suits next winter in Aus...so important to continue to chip in, in the meantime I think.

Still work to do tomorrow - pitch doesn't have demons and we've seen what Daryl Mitchell can do more times than we'd like! Smith and Southee can certainly hang around and cause damage too. Lets hope for some of those recent overcast starts to the days play again...

KP_fan wrote:

sirfredperry wrote:  One wonders how long before Brook is spoken of in Big Four terms  

Brook, Jaiswal, Kamindu & Rachin are already being spoken of as the next gen Big-4 or Fab-4

Been very impressed with what I've seen of Jaiswal. That innings in Perth, with Hazlewood bowling an excellent, consistent line showed his temperament. From the stats it looks as if the young Indian could get to 2,000 Test runs even quicker than Brook.

alfie wrote:Perfect restart for England  . Carse bounces Ravindra,  pulls high to Bethell at cow corner...64/3

Just been catching up with the highlights.

That was a good catch by Alfie's Dutch lad.

alfie wrote:And two in two as Blundell given caught behind first ball !  Or is it  ? Review called.......but a clear edge so Woakes is on a hat trick...

I liked Pope being switched on and throwing down the stumps in case it wasn't given out on field.

In line with KC's thoughts, Pope's done ok so far with the gloves.

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote: ...
Has been stated on here many times, but it really is encouraging that Atkinson and Carse appear to be at worst options for the XI, if they continue in recent form, they will be starters. Their clear ability with the bat (and to play pace) is very handy, and our best XIs have been built with bowlers who can counter attack and chip in with handy 30-50 odds.
I think overseas both should be batting ahead of Woakes when he plays, actually.

...

That is interesting.

To be fair Woakes was the one dropped out in Pakistan when they went spin heavy.

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:I think overseas both should be batting ahead of Woakes when he plays, actually.

Bowling wise good to see Woakes take advantage of his opportunity - I don't think he should be an automatic pick overseas, especially in light of improved batting from other seamers, but he would be a handy player to have around the group and for the odd game if pitch suits next winter in Aus...so important to continue to chip in, in the meantime I think.

In NZ, I'd still have Woakes ahead of them despite a failure in that innings. He generally plays seam very well off the front foot. His playing of the short ball can be dire though. Particularly against quicker bowlers. Which massively reduces his battings worth in Oz for instance. His only fifty outside of England is in NZ for that reason. It's a small sample size in most nations as he's struggled overseas.

I'm in the same boat re Woakes. I think he could be a useful option in a touring party overseas. Especially if Stokes cant bowl, you need to break glass in case of emergency and bat a bowler at 7. He won't be first choice overseas when more of Atkinson, Carse, Wood, Stone, Tongue and maybe Jof are fit.

T2 in the Ashes is a day/nighter at the Gabba for instance. Even if Woakes were only consider there in a potential 4 man seam attack, Root picking up spin overs. It keeps options open in the squad.

GSC wrote:To be fair Woakes was the one dropped out in Pakistan when they went spin heavy.

A few well tuned in journalists mentioned in the summer that they felt Carse may have even played in England ahead of Woakes had he not had that ban. It would've caused a meltdown for many fans after his Ashes performance and Jimmy retiring. IIRC, both Dobell and MacPherson said it though. Rumours were that Atkinson was nailed on, they wanted Wood's pace, then Carse may well have got the seamer capable of batting at 8 role.

There is a seam battery emerging that I find really exciting. A few of them being able to bat certainly helps selection though. Stone and Potts can hold a stick too, in addition to Woakes, Carse and Atkinson.

There are 5 Tests against India in 6 weeks next summer before the Ashes. T2/3 and T4/5 are back to backs. They will need to rotate. I could see something like below being a very good stables for that.

8/9.Woakes, Carse and Atkinson rotating - try to pick 2 each Test. Potts as back up.
10.Wood and Stone rotating. Maybe even Jof. Tongue as back up. Pick a fresh 'quick' each Test to maximise their impact.
11.Spinner - I like Bash, I know others don't.

Injuries will inevitably happen to seamers. We are starting to see depth that can weather injuries though. Wood is absent here. Tongue hasn't feature for a while but really impressed me in that Ashes Test.

There's a depth of quicker options emerging that England have lacked for a long while.

As for this morning, Stokes and Carse so far , a lot of short stuff and nothing much to worry the batsmen ; though the no ball tally keeps rising. 30 added in six overs so NZ can claim to have won the first half hour

Not sure why Stokes has started ahead of Atkinson or Woakes this morning.

Nice gentle start for NZ and that lead is already 39.

And Carse strikes! No more gentleness.

Wicket now though...Carse gets one through Smith , a bit low...review won't save him. 190/7