England's winter of cricket 2024/25

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Mousley is really fun to watch. I've no idea if there's longevity in what he's doing. I'm really happy that England are giving it a go though.

Yorkers from seamers have become less regular at the death as the margin for error is so small. It always was a small margin, but, if you hit it, then it couldn't get hit. Shots like the scoop changed that though. There's plenty of batters who can now turn a very good yorker into a boundary behind square on either side. Yorkers are still a weapon, but it's in an arsenal with other options. As opposed to guys like Flintoff who had a brilliant ODI record and rep as a death bowler largely by trying to bowl 5 yorkers an over.

Mousley bowling 75 mph yorkers off 3 paces in the Hundred was both effective and just really intriguing. Logically, 'spinners' are usually more accurate than seamers. The tiny run up that he flies through gives less time for a batter to shift their feet, look to scoop, etc. Plus, if they shape to scoop very early, then Mousley can take all the pace off, bowl a regular off-break and there's suddenly not enough there for the batter to work with. It's really interesting.

Part of me suspects that he might be found out. Trying to bowl yorkers off 3 paces like that, all from the shoulder, he does seem liable to bowl full tosses more often than others. Might batters adjust to the tiny runup and basically play him like a 75mph medium pacer bowling off a regular, longer runup? If Paul Collingwood was doing the same thing at the death off his runup then he'd be hit into space! Mousley really isn't putting much action on the ball either. It does seem to just be rapid arm balls. They've been very effective at times though. He might prove to be a one trick pony that gets worked out.

As said though, I'm just glad they're giving him the chance to find out either way. I really wish they'd done that with Benny Howell when he was at his peak. There was a period when Howell's stats in the middle overs were absurd. He was a similarly odd bowler. His cricinfo page says "right-arm medium". In reality, he was a 'quick spinner'. He had about a dozen slower balls that did different things. Many were genuinely deviating off the pitch too. Batters just couldn't hit him for a long period. He was very tough to get away square due to the pace. He bowled wicket to wicket with smart fields, got a ton of players caught at long-on and long-off with miss hits down the ground from the battery of slower balls. Some would dip. Some would turn. Batters couldn't line him up. England just weren't interested at that point in some weird medium pacer though, sadly. I think that Howell bowling in tandem with Dilly in the middle overs of T20i's could've been a brilliant weapon.

I'm glad they're having a look at something different this time. He shouldn't have played the ODIs but that's the schedule and having a T20 squad for 50 over games, so obviously not Mousley's fault!

Duty281 wrote: England will need Stokes to bowl on this early evidence. Bashir will likely be required to get through a fair few overs as well, on what is typically a spinners' graveyard.

Has been a scratchy and hesitant start from Williamson.

Hi Duty - I do think England would have been better off here with yer man Dawson than Bashir. Whilst fully accepting Dawson isn't the future and recognising his ship has sailed, it's still the current series that we now need to win.

I actually like Bashir but for such a one dimensional cricketer, he appears to get a surprisingly easy pass into this England side. After all, he's a genuine number 11 and he's very ordinary in the field (his 4 overthrows being described by cricinfo as ''Comedy fielding!'' and another misfield just now).

I am more supportive of him and his potential than that suggests but doubt there'll be enough in the NZ tracks to merit his inclusion on this tour. I've seen him keep it impressively dry at times in the Championship this last season but also get absolutely mauled at others. It would be considerably to the Kiwis' advantage if they could get after him early on, bearing in mind Stokes' fitness concerns and JD's comments about Carse being expensive.

Huzzah! I think Dawson could have played a good part for England since the last Ashes series, but oh well. I would have preferred Leach or Rehan over Bashir in this one, to be fair as well.

Dawson is currently playing a game, actually. Hampshire v Rangpur in the Global Super League...whatever that is!

One or two good balls from Stokes but a lot of dross as well as his first 2 overs cost 19.

Duty281 wrote:Ollie Robinson officially added to the squad. Will likely take the gloves for test two. Must be a weird feeling for Bethell.

...

Just going back to this.

It may actually ease Bethell's nerves. It's fully expected that he'll be the batter to make way and so it's not as if he's playing for his place. Rather, getting an unexpected debut and the opportunity to enjoy it.

Be interesting, mind, if he gets a bowl and outperforms Bashir.

I think even Ravindra didn't know he hit that!

DRS has really shown that the old adage, "You know when you've hit it", isn't so true.

That would've been the 3rd wicket England really needed after putting NZ in though. The Black Caps session as they scored at a good lick, only lost 2. There is just enough in the pitch I think. England just haven't put it in the right place consistently enough to build pressure and get the rewards.

I'm going to turn in now. Enjoy the nightshift any who stay up!

104/2. Good toss to lose. And appears Ravindra was out just before lunch, but no one went up for it!

I think Latham and Conway will be kicking themselves. Williamson, not necessarily fluent, but watchful and has played some nice shots.

England's main problem has been control. They can't bowl dry. No one has been able to bowl dry since Anderson retired. And all too easy for NZ to go at nearly 4.5 without much risk.

Woakes and Atkinson were concerning, especially pace wise. Stokes' rhythm looked shot. Carse was the most menacing by a distance.

Looks like it'll be a tough day in the field.

Worth noting with the paces, Cricviz have reckoned for a while that the NZ speed guns tend to read a bit slower. The radar guns can be affected by things like how far from the bowlers they're mounted. The variance generally tends to be pretty small between different nations and tournaments. There are exceptions though. The BBL frequently has laughably fast readings for instance. Whilst NZ are the outliers in Tests. Lots of seamers have come to NZ and registered average speeds around 2mph lower than their previous slowest average across a match. It's happened a lot and for a while. Cricviz have by a distance the biggest data set for those sorts of stats and have been convinced for a few years that the readings in NZ must be off.

I always struggle to sleep when there's a Test on through the night.

king_carlos wrote:I always struggle to sleep when there's a Test on through the night.

I thought you had turned in an hour ago!

I'm off to bed now.

Just to add - lovely weather and setting for cricket. Never watched cricket there but had a lovely few days in Christchurch when touring NZ.

Oh, b*gg*r - here's Bashir. I'm going to have to watch a bit more!

Ha! Ravindra throws it away as he wallops a Bahir full toss to Crawley.

131/3 and that's goodnight from me.

Bashir must have been inspired by the knowledge that Guildford was staying up to watch him...useful and somewhat "fortunate" wicket , rather out of the blue. At least the missed appeal before lunch hasn't ended up costing a fortune... At 135/3 things look fairly even on a pitch which will probably remain good for batting throughout. But Bashir maybe ought to come off now and let the pace men back into it for now as they don't want to let these two get away...

NZ still maintaining a good rate of scoring, without doing anything silly. Helped a bit by England's bowlers being somewhat undisciplined...bit short in length at times , too many no balls.... days like this you miss the control of an Anderson but we can't keep fussing about that forever ... Stokes back for a second spell , which might give us a better idea of how he will be able to cope with regular bowling duties.

After serving up a few pies around and after that wicket , Bashir has tightened up quite well - 1/32 now from ten. Which is useful for England as Stokes is clearly all about attacking at the other end and runs are ticking over. And the fourth wicket is still eluding them in what has so far been a good session for the home team. 185/3...and now we see Bethell to have a go...

Tea.193/3 from 51. Williamson 77no , so NZ in a good position to take advantage of any tiredness in the England bowlers in the latter part of a hot day. Stokes has made sure to spread the workload but his main strikers will likely have to put in a pretty solid shift...could really do with a couple of wickets when they resume but there isn't a great deal for the bowlers at present : possibly a good toss to have lost , though I don't know if NZ would have chosen to field first.

Woakes and Carse after the break....and the latter has immediate effect , Mitchell mishitting a bouncer to Brook at third man. 199/4. Wickets seem to fall after starts and restarts today...England will hope to follow up this one with further inroads for the first time today.

...nearly. Woakes finds Williamson's edge but not quite carrying to slip. This feels like an important mini session : if they could grab another one now (particularly if it were Williamson) , England might fancy keeping NZ to a modest kind of total. But if Blundell settles and the bowlers have to keep coming back for repeated spells in what will be an extended session ( over rate has been predictably awful) : things could get ugly.

Mixed bag here from the bowlers. Carse giving it great effort in a largely short pitched assault (probably won't be able to keep that going much longer) , while Woakes seeks to find an edge - unfortunately he's mixed some good deliveries with too many loose ones which is why he's gone for 52 off 14. Williamson into the nineties...

And there it is ! Atkinson into the attack , Williamson fails to get over a square cut and well caught by Crawley at gully...gone for 93 and walks off kicking himself...227/5. Bit of a gift for England which they'll happily accept

...and nearly two in the over as Phillips is dropped by Stokes at a fairly close mid off...to be fair it was a tough chance : hit like a rocket and he had to dive to his left - ball hit him hard on the left hand , bounced off the other one as he went down. Wonder what that will cost ?

Gets better for England...Bashir induces a slice to backward point Atkinson and Blundell departs...
.247/6. Wasn't anything special about the ball - bit short and hittable really but the bounce apparently decieved him. So now Smith joins Phillips with not much batting to follow and Bashir has his tail up...

And another one ! This one very well earned by Bashir : bowled to a plan , nicely caught at leg gully by Joe Root ... England dominating this session and NZ needing something from the tail now at 253/7

Seven overs left to the new ball so Stokes is operating with Bashir to keep his main men fresh. Thought he had one , given caught down leg , but overturned on review. And just then missed out on an umpires call lbw shout which would have stayed out had it been given on field, though they didn't call for a review anyway. Henry supplying some vigorous blows, 14 from 16 and these two have added a quick25

Good positive batting from these two...going for their shots and rattling up runs ahead of the new ball...296/7... but is this a wicket? No : umpire correct , England referall choice rubbish as ever , down to one review left

Unusual for this ground but the off spinner now has four of the eight wickets as Henry goes big but not big enough and finds Duckett at long on...out for a valuable little 18 in a stand of 46. Just Southee and O'Rourke left now to support Phillips and new ball one over away.. : fifteen minutes to close of play...

Woke up to read NZ had gone 7 down for 257....
Turned on to see an easy pitch 8th wkt got NZ to 298 and Henry holds out to Bashir.
Pitch is not fast, not much spin, didn't watch morning sessions but read there wasn't much movement either.
Pitch has bounce though and ball getting a bit stuck in the wicket ie not coming on.

Bashir's 4for is surprising but due to ball not coming on and batters trying to force pace

NZ has depth in batting ,.Philipps doing well and Southee is capable.
330 would be a middish total that NZ look like getting to

Dare one say a touch of Bazball about the NZ batting Southee swinging hard at Carse and brings up the 300 in the eightieth over...Phillips also a boundary, plus yet more extras : a harsh call on Pope to see that as byes! New ball taken immediately 312/8

Eng has been a bit short of required length & NZ has been trying to force pace on a pitch that's slow with tennis ball type bounce.

A yard fuller for Eng would have checked the scoring  I think.
NZ have scored 30 runs too many and lost atleast 2 wickets too many

Eng's day in any case I think

Stumps 318/8 ...7 overs short for the day. Phillips holding it together for NZ with an important 41no , Bashir has the figures 4/69 from 20 , couple of wickets each Atkinson and Carse. Might call it an even day ? Depends a bit on how many they can add on the morrow ; 350 would be a decent score I think - but hard to know until both sides have batted on it. The fact that several batsmen got solid starts but didn't go big may mean batting wasn't as easy as it sometimes seemed- or that they've wasted opportunities Guess we will see tomorrow...

If you insert the opposition you're really looking to bowl them out on the first day and for me the absolute minimum requirement is seven wickets, although something like 350 for seven would not really be acceptable.

Eight down with more than 300 on the board is probably not quite good enough for England yet it may show that there are plenty of runs in this wicket.

The Test schedule is a complete farce, particularly now that we have the Test Championship. England are currently playing NZ followed by India at home and Australia away. So nice and easy-peasy, I don't think.

Also, the long series are against the stronger teams so it's little wonder that England come nowhere near topping the table.

It's almost a throwback to the 90s when England were hopeless and were facing the two strongest sides, WI and Aus, over SIX Test series.

Duty281 wrote:A historical 3-0 win in Pakistan hardly registers as an achievement because Pakistan are utterly dreadful. If England had been the only team to nil them in Pakistan, it would be great. But Australia, NZ and Bangladesh have all done likewise. And that’s Bangladesh that have lost eight tests in a row outside of that Pakistan series.

I’ve never claimed England are mediocre. They’re the 3rd/4th best team in test cricket, which is exactly where they’ve been for the last decade, although losing three of the last four tests is putting that under strain.

I was curious to hear your prediction because I thought someone who believed that England had made progress under the current regime would be confident of an England series win. But seems you think it’ll be the usual tight affair between these teams in NZ.

Oh dear : you won't concede anything on this issue will you ?  Pakistan are dreadful ?  They haven't been very good for a while , true ; though they did win 2-0 in Sri Lanka ... but I think beating them 3-0 rather exceeds , say , Australia taking a 1-0 win the year before. Still remains the only 3-0 win by any team ever visiting Pakistan so most would see it as at least worthy of note . But never mind...

You seem to think I am some sort of uncritical Bazball fanatic , despite the fact that I have consistently qualified my general approval of the way they have gone about reviving an England Test team that had tended to struggle overseas since the end of the Strauss/Flower era ; and had certainly looked to be down in confidence ,  after a very rough year or so , by early 2022. I don't deny there were circumstances around Covid that probably contributed to a rotten run of 17 matches for 1 win ; but the fact remains they were at a low ebb. So I have considerable regard for the way in which the new management was able to instil a different philosophy into essentially the same group of players , resulting in ten wins from their next 11 matches. Doesn't mean everything was "fixed"  : there were still weaknesses in the team . How could there not be when only Root of the experienced bats averaged over 37 ? And the bowling relied heavily on two excellent but ageing fast bowlers who obviously weren't going to go on forever .They needed to do two things  : (a) introduce some new players who could be better than some of those who were in place (something they continue to try , with mixed results) ; and (b) refine their approach , principally with the bat , to ensure they don't throw away promising positions. They manged to do so at times : but also failed badly on this score on other occasions. Absolutely not denying that - which is why I have consistently described them as "a work in progress".

So when you ask why I am not over confident of an England win in NZ , I think the answer is obvious : NZ are hard to beat at home (and have just surprised everyone by besting India on their home grounds) ; England haven't won there in a series for 16 years ; and this England team remains somewhat less than a super power... predicting an easy win would be rather reckless , no ? I do think they can win : but it won't shock me if they don't.

I am slightly surprised to see that you rate England as "3rd/4th best team" : I would rate them 4th at best right now , needing to win this series to advance a spot . Which surely means we don't really see things all that differently ? Just that you seem to have a gloomier view of what this all means than I...which is fair enough. Sorry to prolong this discussion at the risk of boring other posters to death ; but you did seem to ask why ...

Seems like a fairly even day? Surprised both captains wanted to bowl first, seemed to me to be a usual NZ test wicket...albeit if that is the case then maybe batting 2nd on days 2/3 is usually when the pitch is flattest.

If England can tidy this tail up for under 350, a decent, if not great effort. And a real test for the batting unit, of an almost Aussie like conditions where they will need to go and put up 500 and get a substantial first innings in the bag, as likely to be a worse wicket to chase on come days 4/5

Looks a good track when the ball goes soft, Bashir with some useful scalps and some gifts in there for the bowlers.

If (and given recent history it's a massive if) England can clean up the tail, really need to be batting into day 3 I think

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Seems like a fairly even day? Surprised both captains wanted to bat first, seemed to me to be a usual NZ test wicket...albeit if that is the case then maybe batting 2nd on days 2/3 is usually when the pitch is flattest.

If England can tidy this tail up for under 350, a decent, if not great effort. And a real test for the batting unit, of an almost Aussie like conditions where they will need to go and put up 500 and get a substantial first innings in the bag, as likely to be a worse wicket to chase on come days 4/5

I'd say even ; but a Kiwi commentator reckoned the home team was on top. Suppose it depends a lot on how the pitch behaves in coming days (and whether England bat to those conditions or misjudge and under-achieve !) Not sure they'll need a huge lead though as pitches here don't usually deteriorate too dramatically - at least I can't remember too many that have.

They should be able to get the last two reasonably economically , with a ball still very new : but we all know England's record against 9th and 10th wicket partnerships so I won't assume anything until it happens !

I do think taking eight wickets was a fair result ; though I wouldn't say that owed a great deal to bowling excellence so much as persistence. A lot of the seam bowling was a bit lacking in length , and even direction - and far too many extras were given away. Bashir was both a bit loose and a lot lucky early on , though he got much better as the day went on. Overall I think they have a bit of improvement to make on that display : hope the bats are more ready to fire first up...

Definitely England's day, but an odd day. It's a 400 pitch at least and it looks as though, not guaranteed, but looks as though NZ will fall short of that.

England didn't bowl well enough to take eight wickets. But NZ were in a lovely Christmas spirit and bore many gifts. They didn't need to force so many shots, especially as England lacked accuracy and their fielding was terrible. But they still tried NZ and there were so many cheap dismissals as a result.

Carse was England's best bowler of the day by a mile. Atkinson looked low on intensity, and was disappointing with the new ball, but came back into it a little later on. Bashir was mixed. Some absolute filth and some deliveries that were clever where he took the pace off. But three of his wickets came through ill-judged aggressive shots. Woakes was just ineffective. It's maddening that Anderson has been forced into retirement so that a continual overseas failure in Woakes can be picked to lead the attack. And the terrifying thing is Woakes is on course to lead the attack in Perth.

Latham, Williamson and Ravindra all started well, and all will be furious they didn't ton up. They left a lot out there.

Advantage England for now, but they need to wrap this up for under 350 and focus on batting well and scoring 400+. It's not the sort of wicket, as NZ proved, where you need to force anything. Just stay out there, play sensibly, and the runs will come. Southee's not in form, Smith is new, there's only part time spin...just get through that new ball and make hay.

king_carlos wrote:Good start from Atkinson but they'll need more in the morning session if this pitch flattens out as NZ pitches often do. I'm hoping Stokes can properly bowl given he's batting 7.

Duty281 wrote:
As for replacing Crawley or Pope, well throw a dart at some county bats and you'll likely end up with someone who does no worse. Plenty of options out there to replace two players who average below 34. Pope, for all his county brilliance, is someone who has never taken well to the test arena. He's a modern day, slightly better in test numbers, version of Hick or Ramprakash. Crawley just isn't it and has never been it.

Sorry Duty, but that's just incorrect based on what we've seen from the openers. The guys you could throw a dart at have been tried and did do worse. The best England qualified openers in Div 1 last season were Hameed, Burns, Jennings, Lees and Sibley. All tried. All did worse than Crawley. Untried options would be Alex Davies and Ben Slater having solid years or throwing Lammonby in after a good summer. Div 2 performers were Lyth, Robson and Bracey. See Burns etc.

When there isn't obvious talent putting their hand up yet, why would you go back to players who did do worse on average and lacked the upside of Crawley's stroke making when he gets going? What you're saying doesn't add up with what's in the CC when it comes to openers. If there was someone who hadn't already done worse in Tests regularly pumping out runs, it'd make sense. There isn't though!

There's an argument with the amount of roads, and useless dukes balls, that have been around since 2022 that Burns and Sibley really did no worse than Crawley in their stints as opener. Jennings and Hameed are certainly better players now than they were when they played for England. Any of the untried options would be fine. Davies, Slater, Lammonby...their FC averages are around Crawley's level. Could also look at Yates or McKinney, who've opened for the Lions. Any of those five options are worth a punt.

Replacing a bat who averages under 32 after 50 tests really isn't a difficult task.

Duty281 wrote:Huzzah! I think Dawson could have played a good part for England since the last Ashes series, but oh well. I would have preferred Leach or Rehan over Bashir in this one, to be fair as well.

Dawson is currently playing a game, actually. Hampshire v Rangpur in the Global Super League...whatever that is!

Well done to Liam Dawson, who hit the winning six in the Super Over of this contest.

Duty281 wrote:

There's an argument with the amount of roads, and useless dukes balls, that have been around since 2022 that Burns and Sibley really did no worse than Crawley in their stints as opener. Jennings and Hameed are certainly better players now than they were when they played for England. Any of the untried options would be fine. Davies, Slater, Lammonby...their FC averages are around Crawley's level. Could also look at Yates or McKinney, who've opened for the Lions. Any of those five options are worth a punt.

Replacing a bat who averages under 32 after 50 tests really isn't a difficult task.

You can't on one hand mention the amount of roads and useless dukes balls and on the other suggest Jennings and Hameed. Crawley isn't good enough to be a test opener, we're probably all in agreement on that but there are no better options at the present time so he's in the team. Trying any of the players suggested would require a complete overhaul of the pitch preparation.

I know some think Crawley should not be in the side. For me, though, he should be one of the first names on the team sheet.

They say bowlers win matches but occasionally you will get a batsman who is a matchwinner. Pietersen was one. Crawley is another. Averages sometimes don't tell the whole story.

What was the last game Crawley played a match winning knock in? I suppose we could say the Ashes test in Manchester would have been one, if it hadn't rained, but what else?

He's only hit four centuries in his career, and three of those games have been draws. The one where England did win saw four English centurions!

To be fair to Crawley, an average of over 50 against Australia and over 40 India suggested he had turned a corner in 2023. That bought him a fair amount of credit (to go with a lack of viable replacements if we're being honest). But 2024 has been a sizable step backwards, poor returns against the WIs, injured for SL and then returned for Pakistan to similar returns.

It does feel mildly recent to start calling for dropping a 26 year opener with good returns against the two best sides in the world just a year ago, because he's had a poor year that's been interrupted by injury. Certainly if we're trying to bring Jennings or Hameer back in.

That said Crawley does need to reverse this form at some stage, or the noise in the summer when India tour will start to get deafening

alfie wrote:Gets better for England...Bashir induces a slice to backward point Atkinson and Blundell departs...
.247/6.   Wasn't anything special about the ball   - bit short and hittable really but the bounce apparently decieved him.  So now Smith joins Phillips with not much batting to follow and Bashir has his tail up...

It's what that often laughed at high release point can do. Plus, he puts a lot of revs on the ball for a traditional off spinner, so can get dip. It allows him to get wickets with 'bad balls' more often than others might. I know most others don't agree, but, I would be picking Bashir. I think there's so much to work with there that many English spinners don't have.

On getting wickets when not bowling your best, it's also something that a bit more pace can do. If you're medium-fast then you generally need to bowl very well to get wickets. I felt that Carse, though the pick of the seamers, was pretty erratic at times. His best balls still looked very good indeed though. I think pace does that. You can get poles whilst not quite at your best.

His Wagner impression during that short ball barrage was very interesting too. I discussed how I though McCullum might be eyeing that sort of tactic from Carse when he was first picked. England don't usually produce change bowlers. Carse could be that.

I'd have things pretty even. There's definitely something in the pitch for the seamers when you get it in the right areas but I could see D2 and 3 being the best to bat on. Breaking Phillips and Southee apart early will be important. Phillips is very dangerous and Southee can cause chaos with his slogging and 6 hitting.

As a side note. I'd have loved to see the comments if the same day had happened with teams reversed. Williamson giving catching practice to gully and Ravindra's lapse. If the 'Bazball' led England team had got out similarly there definitely would've been comments of arrogance, being mentally weak, etc. Whereas, just maybe, bad shots are always a part of cricket.

alfie wrote: ...

I do think taking eight wickets was a fair result ; though I wouldn't say that owed a great deal to bowling excellence so much as persistence. A lot of the seam bowling was a bit lacking in length , and even direction - and far too many extras were given away. Bashir was both a bit loose and a lot lucky early on , though he got much better as the day went on. Overall I think they have a bit of improvement to make on that display : hope the bats are more ready to fire first up...

Agree with that, Alfie.

Feel both sides will be fairly content with how things stand at the end of day one but still disappointed that sloppy and ill disciplined play at times stopped them getting clearly ahead. The home time side generously donated a few wickets with none of their batters properly gong on after getting in - not even Williamson. The visitors dreadfully conceded 21 runs in no balls and wides plus a few more in overthrows as I hid behind the sofa. A mix of good and poor deliveries as well.

Anyway, interestingly poised ....

Overcast morning. Might make it tougher for England's bats.

But need to get those two wickets first!

There's one

Oof, that's a brute of a delivery

And that goes down as a drop even if it would've been a worldie

Think two overs of Woakes would've been enough for me if I was Stokes

Please make O’Rourke play a ball.

Just one more test and Woakes will crack bowling overseas.

Just one more test. One more. One!

Lovely from Carse. The yorker against the number eleven. Wish England did that more often.

348ao. About 50 light, I'd say, but they've got a competitive total, won't be batting last, and have some decent overhead conditions to work with.

42 extras from England, not counting some overthrows as well. That's bad.

Time to bat well. Please bat well.