PRO12 has new Managing Director and he isn't Irish :D :yahoo:

[Guest]

Or maybe, just maybe everyone decided to pitch their hat into the ring and see what happened

Are all teams eligible?

Well considering they were all asked to tender for it that would mean they were

Marty, because the criteria has never been made public, none of us will never know.

Sure if we had facts then we wouldn't have these conspiracy theories. Where would be the fun in that?

[ScarletSpiderman]

the Scots and welsh should be producing more.

Do you mean Italians ?

You hacking into my computer again?

Yes, more Italians.

I have corrected

I assumed you meant Welsh to be honest, but tongue in cheek, as in if there were more welsh refs we would moan about them less.

[PhilBB]

You think the a police officer and a tax man would describe themselves as colleagues? Sure, Phil......

No, I don't think that they would which is why I wrote as much earlier in this thread.

[marty2086]

Or maybe, just maybe everyone decided to pitch their hat into the ring and see what happened

Are all teams eligible?

Well considering they were all asked to tender for it that would mean they were

Marty, because the criteria has never been made public, none of us will never know.

That wasn't the question, as all teams were asked to tender that would suggest they are all eligible the criteria would come in to play once they are assessing the tender

[Guest]

A Grow Your Own program should be started by IRPRO12FU.  Grow your own ref.  A packet of seeds, sprinkle in February, harvest in August, ready to ref in October.

Italy and Scotland first up for the experiment.

Oh sorry.  PS:  Genetically modified seeds so as not to have the Bias gene.  I wish you all luck in killing off the bias gene.

Genetically modified Refs. I like that idea

[ScarletSpiderman]

Or maybe, just maybe everyone decided to pitch their hat into the ring and see what happened

Are all teams eligible?

Well considering they were all asked to tender for it that would mean they were

Marty, because the criteria has never been made public, none of us will never know.

That wasn't the question, as all teams were asked to tender that would suggest they are all eligible the criteria would come in to play once they are assessing the tender

Not necessarily. It could be like the job seekers cheat for showing your applying for jobs. The fact that your last job was a road sweep does not stop you from applying for a CEO role in a multinational firm.

[SecretFly]

Some Road Sweepers ARE CEOs (Lewis allegedly being an example) ...so where does that analogy go.

[marty2086]

Or maybe, just maybe everyone decided to pitch their hat into the ring and see what happened

Are all teams eligible?

Well considering they were all asked to tender for it that would mean they were

Marty, because the criteria has never been made public, none of us will never know.

That wasn't the question, as all teams were asked to tender that would suggest they are all eligible the criteria would come in to play once they are assessing the tender

Not necessarily.  It could be like the job seekers cheat for showing your applying for jobs.  The fact that your last job was a road sweep does not stop you from applying for a CEO role in a multinational firm.

The chances that everyone meets the criteria is slim, that's the same with any tender process but then again everyone could meet the criteria but some could exceed it its all scored

[Chunky Norwich]

Your grand LD, but you know there are one or two Welsh fans who post here who never stop attacking everything Irish.

The problem is, you and your ilk think that any criticism of anythign Irish is:

1) A conspiracy theory
2) Somebody bored on the internet trying to annoy somebody else.

It never seems to enter your head that there are legitimate causes of concern, that, if rectified could lead to a more level playing field.

Because
Da oirish
Never
Do anyting
wrong.

[SecretFly]

Because
Da oirish
Never
Do anyting
wrong.

Well we spelle betur than youe boys, anniway.....

[marty2086]

The problem is, you and your ilk think that any criticism of anythign Irish is:

1) A conspiracy theory
2) Somebody bored on the internet trying to annoy somebody else.

It never seems to enter your head that there are legitimate causes of concern, that, if rectified could lead to a more level playing field.

And your problem is that you think that your ramblings are concrete facts when they are nothing but theories and opinion

[Guest]

LD, be honest. The vitriol is aimed at the Irish. We are seeing it as an attack on the Irish because that is generally what it is.

Not from me it isn't. It's just a way certain members on here like to decipher it. I have always said about getting rid of the potential bias and the conflict of interests that cause the potential bias, without that there would be no argument. I have always said that ALL the unions in the league are to blame for its failings, something the Irish do not agree with. It's just when ever I mention these things, I get accused of being anti-Irish.

Quite often claims are made without the use of the word 'potential', and so it's easy to see why some things are taken at face value. More a question of communication than interpretation.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but did you not comment recently that the league was set up to favour the Irish, or words to that effect? If so, then you can perhaps understand why some things that are said are interpreted as baseless accusations pointed at the Irish.

You're right, I don't see the league as having failings. I do see the league as having areas that can be improved on, and I do believe that efforts are being made to do just that.

Having said all that; I don't believe you are anti - Irish at all, LD. I know I can be a bit robust in some of my replies to you, but I still enjoy our debates, and think you're one of the good guys. Even when I completely disagree with you

[ScarletSpiderman]

LD, be honest. The vitriol is aimed at the Irish. We are seeing it as an attack on the Irish because that is generally what it is.

Not from me it isn't. It's just a way certain members on here like to decipher it. I have always said about getting rid of the potential bias and the conflict of interests that cause the potential bias, without that there would be no argument. I have always said that ALL the unions in the league are to blame for its failings, something the Irish do not agree with. It's just when ever I mention these things, I get accused of being anti-Irish.

Quite often claims are made without the use of the word 'potential', and so it's easy to see why some things are taken at face value. More a question of communication than interpretation.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but did you not comment recently that the league was set up to favour the Irish, or words to that effect? If so, then you can perhaps understand why some things that are said are interpreted as baseless accusations pointed at the Irish.

You're right, I don't see the league as having failings. I do see the league as having areas that can be improved on, and I do believe that efforts are being made to do just that.

Having said all that; I don't believe you are anti - Irish at all, LD. I know I can be a bit robust in some of my replies to you, but I still enjoy our debates, and think you're one of the good guys. Even when I completely disagree with you

There are no problems, only solutions

[LordDowlais]

and think you're one of the good guys. Even when I completely disagree with you

We are all good guys on here when you get down to it Munch. We all have passion for the same thing. Rugby Union.

I still enjoy our debates,

As do I. Otherwise I would not be on here. In fact, there have been Welsh members on here that have drove me to leave this place before any Irish member has.

but did you not comment recently that the league was set up to favour the Irish

Yes I have said that, but it is more built up out of frustration from certain members on here trying to convince me that Irish rugby is the Shangri-la of the rugby world, when in truth, none of us are perfect.

Having said all this though, I still come on here and debate until the cows come home.

[Guest]

LD, be honest. The vitriol is aimed at the Irish. We are seeing it as an attack on the Irish because that is generally what it is.

Not from me it isn't. It's just a way certain members on here like to decipher it. I have always said about getting rid of the potential bias and the conflict of interests that cause the potential bias, without that there would be no argument. I have always said that ALL the unions in the league are to blame for its failings, something the Irish do not agree with. It's just when ever I mention these things, I get accused of being anti-Irish.

Quite often claims are made without the use of the word 'potential', and so it's easy to see why some things are taken at face value. More a question of communication than interpretation.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but did you not comment recently that the league was set up to favour the Irish, or words to that effect? If so, then you can perhaps understand why some things that are said are interpreted as baseless accusations pointed at the Irish.

You're right, I don't see the league as having failings. I do see the league as having areas that can be improved on, and I do believe that efforts are being made to do just that.

Having said all that; I don't believe you are anti - Irish at all, LD. I know I can be a bit robust in some of my replies to you, but I still enjoy our debates, and think you're one of the good guys. Even when I completely disagree with you

There are no problems, only solutions

If we do have problems, I don't see those problems as failings. I don't believe at all that Pro12 is a failing league, but it is a league that can be improved on, as with all leagues.

[Chunky Norwich]

it is a league that can be improved on, as with all leagues.

Yet every time a suggestion is made, the Irish debunk it as a factless, paranoid, welsh whinging based conspiracy theory

[ScarletSpiderman]

There are no problems, only solutions

If we do have problems, I don't see those problems as failings. I don't believe at all that Pro12 is a failing league, but it is a league that can be improved on, as with all leagues.

To be truthful I am generally with you on that. In theory, and given time/effort/financial backing, the Pro12 could well be one of the best leagues around. However, since the issue with Europe, there has become a hefty rift between fans, which then taints the image of the league for me.

[marty2086]

it is a league that can be improved on, as with all leagues.

Yet every time a suggestion is made, the Irish debunk it as a factless, paranoid, welsh whinging based conspiracy theory

b0110ck5!

What has been pointed out is that with some there is a narrow focus on issues and the root of the problems are missed

With you on the other hand I think we are all in agreement that it is paranoid whinging because you plain just don't like the league

[Chunky Norwich]

it is a league that can be improved on, as with all leagues.

Yet every time a suggestion is made, the Irish debunk it as a factless, paranoid, welsh whinging based conspiracy theory

b0110ck5!

What has been pointed out is that with some there is a narrow focus on issues and the root of the problems are missed

With you on the other hand I think we are all in agreement that it is paranoid whinging because you plain just don't like the league

A new poster recently came on this very thread and provided countless facts, links and figures to back up his arguments. And he was labelled a "spoofer".

It will not get through to you. Nobody will. The Irish would argue the earth was flat if it suited you.

[marty2086]

it is a league that can be improved on, as with all leagues.

Yet every time a suggestion is made, the Irish debunk it as a factless, paranoid, welsh whinging based conspiracy theory

b0110ck5!

What has been pointed out is that with some there is a narrow focus on issues and the root of the problems are missed

With you on the other hand I think we are all in agreement that it is paranoid whinging because you plain just don't like the league

A new poster recently came on this very thread and provided countless facts, links and figures to back up his arguments. And he was labelled a "spoofer".

It will not get through to you. Nobody will. The Irish would argue the earth was flat if it suited you.

And what were these facts regarding?

All this from the guy who went pretty quiet on his conflicts of interest only happen in the Pro12 argument after he was shown to be talking out of his @rse

[Chunky Norwich]

it is a league that can be improved on, as with all leagues.

Yet every time a suggestion is made, the Irish debunk it as a factless, paranoid, welsh whinging based conspiracy theory

b0110ck5!

What has been pointed out is that with some there is a narrow focus on issues and the root of the problems are missed

With you on the other hand I think we are all in agreement that it is paranoid whinging because you plain just don't like the league

A new poster recently came on this very thread and provided countless facts, links and figures to back up his arguments. And he was labelled a "spoofer".

It will not get through to you. Nobody will. The Irish would argue the earth was flat if it suited you.

And what were these facts regarding?

Read the thread.

[Marshes]

Your grand LD, but you know there are one or two Welsh fans who post here who never stop attacking everything Irish.

The problem is, you and your ilk think that any criticism of anythign Irish is:

1) A conspiracy theory
2) Somebody bored on the internet trying to annoy somebody else.

It never seems to enter your head that there are legitimate causes of concern, that, if rectified could lead to a more level playing field.

Because
Da oirish
Never
Do anyting
wrong.

If anything Chunky I admire your commitment to the cringy Alan Partridge "Orish" accent spelling and see no conspiracy in criticism of the Pro 12 and discussions on how it can be improved.

The reason some see you points as ad-hominem is that you have set your stall out in a very similar way in the past (calling Ireland a "digusting rugby nation" sticks in the head) and only reinforced it in this thread with posts like the above. You do tend to cry "Irish!" a lot.

But when talking about a level playing-field, keeping in mind the stats for referees have shown no bias issue when checked against results, what in your mind is the great un-leveler?

[SecretFly]

He re-hashed your 'facts' Chunky.  If I didn't know better I'd assume he was a twin brother.  

You two certainly get on like a house on fire in the general swing of arguments.  So it's good you finally have an ally to rubber-stamp your beliefs.  Lord D only kinda fulfils that one as he often agrees with your argument but as quickly often thinks you're talking shyte.
It's always nice for someone to pat one on the back and tell them they're right all the time.  You now have that parrot.

[Chunky Norwich]

But when talking about a level playing-field, keeping in mind the stats for referees have shown no bias issue when checked against results, what in your mind is the great un-leveler?

-The reluctance to acknowledge / change the awful tv deal
-The reluctance to acknowledge / change the fixture issues arising from the awful tv deal
-The reluctance to acknowledge / change the finances arising from the awful tv deal
-The reluctance to acknowledge the awful bias of TMOs like Marshall Kilgore due to the unviability of the league
-The reluctance to acknowledge the awful mess surrounding the final venue
-The reluctance to acknowledge / change the advantage Ireland gains from the competition being based in Ireland
-The reluctance to acknowledge / change the IRFU policy on resting Irish test players

and on and on and on.

[Guest]

and think you're one of the good guys. Even when I completely disagree with you

We are all good guys on here when you get down to it Munch. We all have passion for the same thing. Rugby Union.

I still enjoy our debates,

As do I. Otherwise I would not be on here. In fact, there have been Welsh members on here that have drove me to leave this place before any Irish member has.

but did you not comment recently that the league was set up to favour the Irish

Yes I have said that, but it is more built up out of frustration from certain members on here trying to convince me that Irish rugby is the Shangri-la of the rugby world, when in truth, none of us are perfect.

Having said all this though, I still come on here and debate until the cows come home.

Sometimes it's difficult to tell if something is heartfelt, or something said 'in the heat of the moment', when face to face, much less on forums such as these.

You see the Pro12 as failing, and not everyone agrees with you. I honestly don't. I see it as a growing success, and so I will not agree that Irish rugby has a share in Pro12 failings, as I don't believe those failings exist. Hope that makes sense. If you can provide facts that prove failings, and that Ireland are at least partly responsible for those failings, then I will accept. Most of those accusations pointed at the Irish are without substance, and generally exist only in the minds of those who make them.

[Guest]

it is a league that can be improved on, as with all leagues.

Yet every time a suggestion is made, the Irish debunk it as a factless, paranoid, welsh whinging based conspiracy theory

There is a difference between a suggestion and an accusation.

[LordDowlais]

You see the Pro12 as failing, and not everyone agrees with you

This is another instance where things are taken out of content. I do not see the league as failing, I see the league as an improvement on previous years, because of past failures, which were down to ALL our respective unions.

The one fact, and is still a part of the issue for me, is that since the leagues inception, a part of the reason for the failings is that the IRFU have seen our league as a development tool. Yes I know things are changing, but you cannot deny that the provinces were fielding players that nobody outside of Ireland had/have ever heard of.

Now that is not the ONLY reason, but it is one of the reasons, just like our in-fighting is one of the reasons, none of us are squeaky clean in all this, I just wish that some of our members would accept that.

[Guest]

But when talking about a level playing-field, keeping in mind the stats for referees have shown no bias issue when checked against results, what in your mind is the great un-leveler?

-The reluctance to acknowledge / change the awful tv deal
-The reluctance to acknowledge / change the fixture issues arising from the awful tv deal
-The reluctance to acknowledge / change the finances arising from the awful tv deal
-The reluctance to acknowledge the awful bias of TMOs like Marshall Kilgore due to the unviability of the league
-The reluctance to acknowledge the awful mess surrounding the final venue
-The reluctance to acknowledge / change the advantage Ireland gains from the competition being based in Ireland
-The reluctance to acknowledge / change the IRFU policy on resting Irish test players

and on and on and on.

Because you say something is true, does not make something true.

[marty2086]

But when talking about a level playing-field, keeping in mind the stats for referees have shown no bias issue when checked against results, what in your mind is the great un-leveler?

-The reluctance to acknowledge / change the awful tv deal
-The reluctance to acknowledge / change the fixture issues arising from the awful tv deal
-The reluctance to acknowledge / change the finances arising from the awful tv deal
-The reluctance to acknowledge the awful bias of TMOs like Marshall Kilgore due to the unviability of the league
-The reluctance to acknowledge the awful mess surrounding the final venue
-The reluctance to acknowledge / change the advantage Ireland gains from the competition being based in Ireland
-The reluctance to acknowledge / change the IRFU policy on resting Irish test players

and on and on and on.

1. Its your opinion its an awful tv deal, as was pointed out earlier in this thread the Pro12 final had more viewers than the AP final which is mainly down to being more accessible. Sacrificing money in the short term to grow the league is a viable strategy but you want everything now

2. Again your opinion that there are issues, with fixtures but given that those running the channels probably know when the games will get most viewers then they probably know what works best

3. See point 1

4. Here's where you make a fool of yourself, while some talk of potential bias you talk of it as if its been proven beyond doubt though other than Roger Wilsons eventual citing against Scarlets last year you've not been able to show a possible never mind an awful bias. Not to mention that final decisions lie with the referees not the TMOs

5. There was no awful mess, was it ideal? No but if they went with the status quo that would have been a mess as that would have required police clearance etc for the event mere days before its taking place but you never have been a big picture kind of guy have you Chunky

6. What advantage does Ireland receive? The Lions and 6 Nations are also based in Ireland and run by the same man yet theres never been an advantage there so why would there be one with the Pro12?

7. Many Irish posters on this thread and forums have stated they don't see the Irish selection policy as ideal but accept it as it has a number of advantages, Irish players are not flogged and it incentivises the provinces to develop depth which the Leinster back row is testament to. Lets not forget that with the policy in place Leinster were able to blow away the best in the Pro12 and Europe all while they had 20 plus players on central contracts. Not to mention guys like POC played the same number of games as Robshaw and Youngs in the AP.

[LordDowlais]

7. Many Irish posters on this thread and forums have stated they don't see the Irish selection policy as ideal but accept it as it has a number of advantages, Irish players are not flogged and it incentivises the provinces to develop depth which the Leinster back row is testament to. Lets not forget that with the policy in place Leinster were able to blow away the best in the Pro12 and Europe all while they had 20 plus players on central contracts. Not to mention guys like POC played the same number of games as Robshaw and Youngs in the AP.

Yes fine, but it's to the detriment of the league, you have done the Celtic league No favours over the years due to you "selection policy". If we had international players going against international players in our league from day one, then we would be in a better place right now. Why can't you see things like this ?

[The Great Aukster]

That is what I would like to see, but for that to happen we would need to see the Scots and Italian recruit and develop more of their own refs, or bring in more refs from elsewhere, like England. That, unfortunately, is not all that easy.

I don't have an issue with Pro12 refs, although TMO's are an issue for me. The only reason I would like to see more neutral refs is because it would help prevent these baseless accusations of bias.

This is true, although surely they should be trying to produce more refs anyway.  Anyway this system would require 6 officiating teams, so only 6 from each nation, the Italians have 2 Pro12 refs, so they would need to provide 4 linesmen/TMOs, so they are probably more than capable already.  This is the only way to get around the 'neutrality' of the ref without forcing an all Scottish/Italian official team upon all Region V Province games.

SS - you need considerably more than that. It's not a bad idea but the big challenge is money.

Firstly the officials don't get paid much £50 - £250 per game depending on role and seniority (Citing commissioners are voluntary) plus travelling/accommodation expenses. Once you start having to transport and accommodate them it multiplies the costs.

Secondly there are normally five officials - with a spare assistant to step up in case one of the starters gets injured.

Thirdly because these aren't professional referees they have their own lives to lead. Going away every weekend when they have been working all week isn't a runner for family life, so they need time off, which means there has to be more of them.

Fourthly being in an officials team would require much more personal commitment in terms of time spent, it is likely that their careers would be shorter. I know Clancy for example is questioning his time away from his young family to the extent of giving up.

It's also worth bearing in mind that some referees like to be able to work in different teams of officials because it gives them a chance to learn from a wider pool and so be more consistent between games.

[LordDowlais]

Thirdly because these aren't professional referees they have their own lives to lead. Going away every weekend when they have been working all week isn't a runner for family life, so they need time off, which means there has to be more of them.

Well lets get them all professional, we are supposed to have a professional league, lets get professional refs as many as we can afford, all paid for BY THE LEAGUE.

[Guest]

You see the Pro12 as failing, and not everyone agrees with you

This is another instance where things are taken out of content. I do not see the league as failing, I see the league as an improvement on previous years, because of past failures, which were down to ALL our respective unions.

The one fact, and is still a part of the issue for me, is that since the leagues inception, a part of the reason for the failings is that the IRFU have seen our league as a development tool. Yes I know things are changing, but you cannot deny that the provinces were fielding players that nobody outside of Ireland had/have ever heard of.

Now that is not the ONLY reason, but it is one of the reasons, just like our in-fighting is one of the reasons, none of us are squeaky clean in all this, I just wish that some of our members would accept that.

The league was set up in order for the lesser nations to have a means of developing players, competing against the best in Europe, and giving the Unions their national sides a greater chance of competing against the best at international level. That's not a failing. That's a worthy purpose, and one that has been fairly successful. Now, it comes across as though you are saying this purpose is unique to Ireland. Simply not true. That will have been the aim of all nations involved. Not that the league should be viewed as simply a development tool. It's a league in its own right, and one which offers a great level of entertainment with the best of each nation competing against one another, and against those of the other two big leagues in Europe.

The Provinces have always had more internationals playing in their sides than you would normally see in AP/T14 teams. We still need those players that most won't have heard of. Otherwise we will shrivel and die. We all need new blood coming through the ranks, including the Regions.

[Guest]

Edit: Double post

[SecretFly]

But when talking about a level playing-field, keeping in mind the stats for referees have shown no bias issue when checked against results, what in your mind is the great un-leveler?

-The reluctance to acknowledge / change the awful tv deal
-The reluctance to acknowledge / change the fixture issues arising from the awful tv deal
-The reluctance to acknowledge / change the finances arising from the awful tv deal
-The reluctance to acknowledge the awful bias of TMOs like Marshall Kilgore due to the unviability of the league
-The reluctance to acknowledge the awful mess surrounding the final venue
-The reluctance to acknowledge / change the advantage Ireland gains from the competition being based in Ireland
-The reluctance to acknowledge / change the IRFU policy on resting Irish test players

and on and on and on.

1. Its your opinion its an awful tv deal, as was pointed out earlier in this thread the Pro12 final had more viewers than the AP final which is mainly down to being more accessible. Sacrificing money in the short term to grow the league is a viable strategy but you want everything now

2. Again your opinion that there are issues, with fixtures but given that those running the channels probably know when the games will get most viewers then they probably know what works best

3. See point 1

4. Here's where you make a fool of yourself, while some talk of potential bias you talk of it as if its been proven beyond doubt though other than Roger Wilsons eventual citing against Scarlets last year you've not been able to show a possible never mind an awful bias. Not to mention that final decisions lie with the referees not the TMOs

5. There was no awful mess, was it ideal? No but if they went with the status quo that would have been a mess as that would have required police clearance etc for the event mere days before its taking place but you never have been a big picture kind of guy have you Chunky

6. What advantage does Ireland receive? The Lions and 6 Nations are also based in Ireland and run by the same man yet theres never been an advantage there so why would there be one with the Pro12?

7. Many Irish posters on this thread and forums have stated they don't see the Irish selection policy as ideal but accept it as it has a number of advantages, Irish players are not flogged and it incentivises the provinces to develop depth which the Leinster back row is testament to. Lets not forget that with the policy in place Leinster were able to blow away the best in the Pro12 and Europe all while they had 20 plus players on central contracts. Not to mention guys like POC played the same number of games as Robshaw and Youngs in the AP.

Marty.  The man wants a Welsh/English League.  
And the man wants a B&I League to have the Irish leverage to Get a Welsh/English League.  
The Man wants to use us to get what he wants, which is a world free of us.  
The man wants nothing more than for the Pro12 League to be seen to be dysfunctional.  It serves his purpose.  So it's pointless arguing with him about how to improve the Pro12.  He doesn't want it improved.  Seeing it 'improve' would he his worst nightmare because he is an Anglophile who believes only in the realm of rugby being played between the English clubs and his Welsh Regions.  Back to tradition.  Back to the heart of his cozy world.  Begone, the pompous Oirish.  Die a thousand deaths, ye green slimeballs.

The man loves these pages, loves the endless sense of tragedy and drawma coming from them.  PRL gets ever closer in his mind's eye.  So....it's pointless trying to sell him the Pro12.  He never wanted it.

[ScarletSpiderman]

That is what I would like to see....

This is true, although surely they should be trying to produce more refs anyway. ...

SS - you need considerably more than that. It's not a bad idea but the big challenge is money....

You are spot on there, it would be a very hard system to work. And it would require a heap of money to get a system like that in place, and it would also really involve a total shake up of what sort of person (personal lives etc) would be needed. I think it is probably one of those in an ideal world where money, and skilled professionals, are not an issue, thing as opposed to something that is workable in the real world. But hey I can still dream.

[marty2086]

7. Many Irish posters on this thread and forums have stated they don't see the Irish selection policy as ideal but accept it as it has a number of advantages, Irish players are not flogged and it incentivises the provinces to develop depth which the Leinster back row is testament to. Lets not forget that with the policy in place Leinster were able to blow away the best in the Pro12 and Europe all while they had 20 plus players on central contracts. Not to mention guys like POC played the same number of games as Robshaw and Youngs in the AP.

Yes fine, but it's to the detriment of the league, you have done the Celtic league No favours over the years due to you "selection policy". If we had international players going against international players in our league from day one, then we would be in a better place right now. Why can't you see things like this ?

LD, how do you seeing it as being better off right now if it wasn't for that policy?

[LordDowlais]

See Munchkin, I try and point an issue, and you just completely bury your head in the sand with it and defend the actions of the IRFU. The league was set up because OUR leagues were not sustainable, we could not afford to all have 10 pro teams each in our own leagues, so we set up the Celtic league for the benefit of Wales, Scotland and Ireland. Wales and Scotland have ALWAYS played their best players when available, Ireland have not. This has caused our league to be less desirable to potential sponsors and made our league less marketable. This to me is a fact of a matter.

I am not saying that our league has been less marketable in the past just because of that, I am saying that whilst the IRFU were doing that, it added to the other issues the league was/is having.

[ScarletSpiderman]

You see the Pro12 as failing, and not everyone agrees with you

This is another instance where things are taken out of content. I do not see the league as failing, I see the league as an improvement on previous years, because of past failures, which were down to ALL our respective unions.

The one fact, and is still a part of the issue for me, is that since the leagues inception, a part of the reason for the failings is that the IRFU have seen our league as a development tool. Yes I know things are changing, but you cannot deny that the provinces were fielding players that nobody outside of Ireland had/have ever heard of.

Now that is not the ONLY reason, but it is one of the reasons, just like our in-fighting is one of the reasons, none of us are squeaky clean in all this, I just wish that some of our members would accept that.

The league was set up in order for the lesser nations to have a means of developing players, competing against the best in Europe, and giving the Unions their national sides a greater chance of competing against the best at international level. That's not a failing. That's a worthy purpose, and one that has been fairly successful. Now, it comes across as though you are saying this purpose is unique to Ireland. Simply not true. That will have been the aim of all nations involved. Not that the league should be viewed as simply a development tool. It's a league in its own right, and one which offers a great level of entertainment with the best of each nation competing against one another, and against those of the other two big leagues in Europe.

The Provinces have always had more internationals playing in their sides than you would normally see in AP/T14 teams. We still need those players that most won't have heard of. Otherwise we will shrivel and die. We all need new blood coming through the ranks, including the Regions.

Pretty fair assessment of the league there. And truth be told when you look at some of these 'nobody knows' players, they do have the potential to be household names in a year or two.

[LordDowlais]

LD, how do you seeing it as being better off right now if it wasn't for that policy?

Because the Irish provinces are starting to use more internationals in the league than before due to the need of finishing in the top 6. Also, the league has grown a lot more with the Italians being involved and have more long term exposure. Add to the fact that our civil war is now over, the league can only improve.

[LordDowlais]

Pretty fair assessment of the league there. And truth be told when you look at some of these 'nobody knows' players, they do have the potential to be household names in a year or two.

The league was not set-up as a development tool, it was set up because none of us could afford 10+ pro team leagues in our countries. We could only afford one league between us.

[ScarletSpiderman]

Pretty fair assessment of the league there. And truth be told when you look at some of these 'nobody knows' players, they do have the potential to be household names in a year or two.

The league was not set-up as a development tool, it was set up because none of us could afford 10+ pro team leagues in our countries. We could only afford one league between us.

True, but are you telling me that a casual Ulster or Glasgow fan would have a clue who Habberfield or Grabham were, or Steff Evans and Dan Jones for the Scarlets? These boys, despite them still being developing players, were fielded by the regions as they were the best available to them at the time. So maybe it is not fair to get too uptight when the Irish do it too.

[marty2086]

See Munchkin, I try and point an issue, and you just completely bury your head in the sand with it and defend the actions of the IRFU. The league was set up because OUR leagues were not sustainable, we could not afford to all have 10 pro teams each in our own leagues, so we set up the Celtic league for the benefit of Wales, Scotland and Ireland. Wales and Scotland have ALWAYS played their best players when available, Ireland have not. This has caused our league to be less desirable to potential sponsors and made our league less marketable. This to me is a fact of a matter.

I am not saying that our league has been less marketable in the past just because of that, I am saying that whilst the IRFU were doing that, it added to the other issues the league was/is having.

LD the overall marketing of the league has been pretty poor on all fronts until the last few years, it was almost as if the idea for a long time was just to exist with no real clear attempt to grow the league so while not having BOD playing every game might not have helped inspire sponsors etc to kick the doors down to throw money at the competition there also wasn't much attempt to utilise names, faces, brands etc to do the same.

[LordDowlais]

True, but are you telling me that a casual Ulster or Glasgow fan would have a clue who Habberfield or Grabham were, or Steff Evans and Dan Jones for the Scarlets? These boys, despite them still being developing players, were fielded by the regions as they were the best available to them at the time. So maybe it is not fair to get too uptight when the Irish do it too.

Yes, but for every Habberfield Ospreys field, they also put out an AWJ and a Dan Biggar and a Justin Tuperic, and a Dan Lydyaite. From the outset, the Irish provinces were fielding teams of players nobody had heard of whilst keeping their international stars back for Europe. If that was not the case, and we were seeing match-ups BOD v Gavin Henson in the early days we could have had sponsors falling over themselves to stick their name on our league.

[LordDowlais]

there also wasn't much attempt to utilise names, faces, brands etc to do the same.

Exactly, but at least everyone else were putting their brands, faces, names on the field of play in the league itself. The IRFU were not doing this.

[ScarletSpiderman]

True, but are you telling me that a casual Ulster or Glasgow fan would have a clue who Habberfield or Grabham were, or Steff Evans and Dan Jones for the Scarlets? These boys, despite them still being developing players, were fielded by the regions as they were the best available to them at the time. So maybe it is not fair to get too uptight when the Irish do it too.

Yes, but for every Habberfield Ospreys field, they also put out an AWJ and a Dan Biggar and a Justin Tuperic, and a Dan Lydyaite. From the outset, the Irish provinces were fielding teams of players nobody had heard of whilst keeping their international stars back for Europe. If that was not the case, and we were seeing match-ups BOD v Gavin Henson in the early days we could have had sponsors falling over themselves to stick their name on our league.

That's true enough too. I guess we will see how much of an effect he NDCs have for player availability for us.

[marty2086]

LD, how do you seeing it as being better off right now if it wasn't for that policy?

Because the Irish provinces are starting to use more internationals in the league than before due to the need of finishing in the top 6. Also, the league has grown a lot more with the Italians being involved and have more long term exposure. Add to the fact that our civil war is now over, the league can only improve.

The Irish selection policy hasn't changed and it was only last season MOC was having his moan about it, the provinces are fielding more internationals because the policy meant they had to develop more quality players due to limits on playing time for centrally contracted players and on the number of NIQ players.

In general too the Irish have brought the bigger foreign names into the league maybe with the exception of Lomu and Collins to the Blues and Ospreuys

[LordDowlais]

In general too the Irish have brought the bigger foreign names into the league maybe with the exception of Lomu and Collins to the Blues and Ospreuys

What about Percy Montgommery at Dragons, and Bobby Skinstad, also Justin Marshall at Ospreys, I think you are doing a little disservice there saying that.

[marty2086]

True, but are you telling me that a casual Ulster or Glasgow fan would have a clue who Habberfield or Grabham were, or Steff Evans and Dan Jones for the Scarlets? These boys, despite them still being developing players, were fielded by the regions as they were the best available to them at the time. So maybe it is not fair to get too uptight when the Irish do it too.

Yes, but for every Habberfield Ospreys field, they also put out an AWJ and a Dan Biggar and a Justin Tuperic, and a Dan Lydyaite. From the outset, the Irish provinces were fielding teams of players nobody had heard of whilst keeping their international stars back for Europe. If that was not the case, and we were seeing match-ups BOD v Gavin Henson in the early days we could have had sponsors falling over themselves to stick their name on our league.

Going to just leave this here

http://www.pro12rugby.com/matchcentre/30.php?section=lineups&fixid=243#jzBvVQdWVDHusrtm.97

[LordDowlais]

The Irish selection policy hasn't changed and it was only last season MOC was having his moan about it

It has changed. I have been watching the Celtic league since day one. I can tell you now 100% at the start you were not playing any first teamers in Wales. There would be a team of unrecognisable players turning up. I do remember one year though, BOD had been out injured for ages and he was named in the Leinster squad to play Dragons, for that one reason I went to RP to watch the game and he came on for a 10 min cameo at the end of the game. Now it seams the provinces are actually using their 10 or 12 game limit in the league and instead of just keeping the players for home games, they use their better players for the harder away games as well, thus using them less at home. Which in itself is an improvement.

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