England: Who's dropped after the world cup?

Simple...several players are struggling to confirm their place already...who would you say has had their day now...and why?

Im thinking:

Out of the squad totally:
Shaw - Age catching up.
Thompson - Age catching up
Tindall - Age catching up
Worsley - Age catching up, and better players available.
Hape - Just not good enough. And we have better English players
Flutey - NOt showing the form that got him in the team. Injuries havent helped.

Possibly squad players but not 1st choice:
Moody - Better performing players coming through and injuries seem to be taking their toll
Easter - Been great for us in bad times...but need to find his replacement
Sheridan - Corbisieru / Stevens and Marler are better or potentially better players.
Cueto - Need a better strike rate from our wingers...and whilst his experience has helped Ashton & Foden settle, they have exprience now

Any others?

What, you mean when they don't progress from their pool?!?! all of them!!

All those but also add Haskell,Payne and Fourie.

Dropped or retired?

Poroba,lle retirements:
Wilko has effectvily announced his anyway by signing in France.
Thompson, Tindall and Shaw obviously.
Quite possibly Moody, Cueto and Flutey too.

As for others it depends on performance.

Haskell? Bit ridiculous since hes done very well recently and is moving back to England so will be available. Even if he struggles to get in the first 15 I dont see him dissapearing altogther post world cup.

Peter seabiscuit wheeler he is the English version of Wale's Andy Powell.

One of the many overrated players in the England squad which is why England will continue to be mediocre.

Must say I agree with that

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:What, you mean when they don't progress from their pool?!?! all of them!!

I think you've confused yourself. This is about England not Scotland

I hope no-one is 'dropped'. If they decide to retire then that's their choice. Otherwise you pick the players to get the best team. I don't think we should rip it up a start again. Wilkinson will probably be 'dropped' due to playing in France, possibly Palmer as well. Hopefully Tuilagi will go and Tindall can be phased out. I think this will be Payne's last involvement unless there are a lot of injuries. Shaw's probably out as well. We need to find competition for Easter, when will Joubert be qualified? Thommo's 32 isn't he? I can see him taking on the Chuter role after the World Cup (i.e. experienced back up in the squad in case of injury).

Over all I think it'll just be based on whether they're needed in the squad. Are they one of the best players in their position? Are they in mainly for experience and is another player in that position now experienced? I don't agree with just dropping players because they won't make the next world cup, etc

Ben Youngs - the best scrum half in the world.

Should we not wait and see what happens at the World Cup before we decide who gets dropped after it?

The only player I think certain to retire is Simon Shaw (assuming he goes).

I think Wilko has made his intentions clear by electing to extend his contract with Toulon, and hasn't Haskell said he wants to play in the SH or Japan?

We'll have to wait and see.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:I think Wilko has made his intentions clear by electing to extend his contract with Toulon, and hasn't Haskell said he wants to play in the SH or Japan?

Haskell is going to Japan after the World Cup then his agent has said he would like to go to the S15 until the beginning of the 2012-13 season when he's signed for Wasps. So he'll miss the 2012 6 nations and summer tours but after that he would be 'available'

Ah I didnt realise his wasps contract was defered for a year. That does put him out of the picture for England for a while. Bit of an ofddsitutaion ofr him scrambling to find work after the collapse of Stade.
Its not impossible that a Jeff team will come in for him with a short term deal though.

Hes still young enough to make it back regardless of what Beshocked thinks of him, he was one of the better performing players for England recently.

I forgot about Worsley, I doubt he will even make the final squad. Cant see him being in a post WC elite squad.

You need to get a better 8 than Easter. Honest trier but short of top class

Could this question be sub-divided into:

1. Who's old? and
2. Who else don't you like?

A few players will be past it after this WC in pure age terms, but surely it doesn't really make sense to talk about anyone else being 'dropped' before the event's even started?!

Haskell is case in point: his England form's been excellent of late, he's only 25....people saying he should be dropped post W/C just plain don't like him

I can see both Tindall and Moody struggling for places post wc, they both seem to be injury riddled, both will struggle to be first choice at their clubs and both have a lot of players looking to fill their place.

I would expect a transition over the 6N's and summer tour then new players playing the AI's.

geoff998rugby wrote:You need to get a better 8 than Easter. Honest trier but short of top class

We could do with an entire side thats better but you cant just drop people for not being Chuck Norris unless theres actually someone better to come in for them. Unless you're Brian Ashton.

Easter is as likely to end up as Capatin as he is to get dropped immediatly post WC.

.......or rather one of the English qualified numbers 8's needs to step up and outperform Nick Easter in club rugby, and earn the England shirt on merit.

The likes of Narraway, Guest and Crane are the ones that need to do the improving.

As mentioned, Wilkinson and Palmer will be playing in France, and therefore fall foul of the RFU's home-based player policy after the World Cup. Haskell will be going on a sabbatical first to Japan and then possibly to the Super 15, so it is unlikely he'll be available for at least the 2012 Six Nations.

I think the older players on the fringes will drop off. Here I'm thinking of players like Chuter, Payne, Shaw and Worsley (35, 32, 37 and 34 respectively and none of whom would get into the first choice 22).

After that, it really becomes a question of when the upcoming players push their established counter-parts out. I'm hoping Wood gets some good game time before and during the World Cup, and think he could oust Moody out of his starting spot during the World Cup, were it not for the fact that Moody is so experienced and captain. However, I think by the first game of the 2012 Six Nations, Wood could definitely be our starting 7. Similarly, Tuilagi could be our first-choice 13. Like Moody, Tindall seems to be held together by tape at the moment. At the World Cup, his experience and defensive organisation would be invaluable, but I would be looking to use Tuilagi as an impact sub and would give him a chance to cement a first team place in the 2012 Six Nations.

Easter would stay in the team for me, as there is no front-runner to take his place in my opinion. However, I would try to look at a couple of 8s off the bench in the Six Nations, in the Saxons in February 2012 and in the tour games in South Africa in June 2012. Then I would put 2 8s (Easter + 1) in the 2012/13 EPS and look to bring through a replacement as and when is appropriate.

All in all, I think we could see an EPS announcement in July 2012 of something like:

Hartley (26), Paice (28), Thompson (33)
Cole (25), Stevens (29), Corbisiero (23), Doran-Jones (27)
Lawes (23), Attwood (25), Deacon (31), Botha (30)
Croft (26), Wood (25), Haskell (27), Robshaw (26)
Easter (33), Crane (26)

Youngs (22), Care (25), Simpson (24)
Flood (26), Hodgson (31)
Hape/Flutey (31/32), Twelvetrees (23), Tuilagi (21), Trinder (23)
Ashton (25), Banahan (25), Sharples (22), Cueto (32)
Foden (26), Alex Goode (24)

The question for me being which of Hape or Flutey cements the 12 spot for the World Cup (as they'd probably get in on consistency).

With the exception of Palmer and Wilkinson (who will be in France) and Sheridan, Moody and Tindall (who are all getting on and have been blighted by injury during their careers), this 32 man EPS contains 17 of the 22 players I would pick in my matchday 22 if the World Cup was tomorrow, so there is a fair degree of consistency there. But there is also room for an exciting bunch of younger players to come in (particularly players like Goode and Sharples, provided they replicate their fantastic form this year), while also getting the understudies for Number 8 and Inside Centre into the squad, so they can get familiar with the players around them and eventually make the jump into the first team.

Players like Moody, Payne, Shaw and Worsley should already be left out of the squad. Far better younger players available.

Robshaw -> Worsley
Corbisiero -> Payne
Attwood -> Shaw
Moody -> Saull

I personally don't mind if players are born in England, come up through the English age grade system or have English blood. But players such as Hender Fourie, Mouritz Botha, Riki Flutey and Shontayne Hape should not be selected for England.

robshaw4england wrote:
Moody -> Saull

I do like Saull as a player but he hasn't been at the forefront of Sarries this year and has been replaced by Burger. Has he really shown the form this season to warrant a place in the squad?

As mentioned, Wilkinson and Palmer will be playing in France, and therefore fall foul of the RFU's home-based player policy after the World Cup

There's a rule that allows for a loop hole in exceptional circumstances. Palmer's contract runs out at the end of next season. I'd imagine they'd class that as exceptional circumstances in order to call him up. Though they'd probabley call him up outside of the EPS.

That's not a bad squad Robbo I'd change just a few players round though;
Out - In
Paice - Webber
Botha - Parling
Twelvetrees - Allen
Hape/Flutey - Barritt
Goode - Brown

Deacon may also have to be replaced if he retires (because his injuries are getting to much) then I'd replace him with Hudson from Newcastle or Kitchener from Tigers. I'm not a Botha fan. Wilson at Bath might also come back into the squad for Corbisiero depending on form. Wilson does cover both sides passabley at international level (did so vs France in 6N 2010).

Post WC I would only be making to changes straight away (retirements aside) - Haskell out since he's off to Japan and Hape because he's no where near good enough.

Other than that I'd be looking for replacements for Shaw (may be gone straight away to retirement anyway), Moody (Wood should be next in line to ease in but Moody might stick around for a season or so until someone steps up as a leader on the pitch), Easter, Wilkinson, Tindall (Tuilagi seems ready to be eased into his place now) and Cueto but the aim would be to replace them all over a two - three year time frame.

Agree with Snoopster in that a raft of changes isn't required and careful shaping of the squad and then the first team is. If all remain in current form a start to the 2012 6N of;

Stevens, Hartley, Cole
Lawes, Palmer
Croft, Easter (c), Wood
Youngs, Flood
Barritt, Manu
Cueto (vc), Foden, Ashton

Should work nicely. Personally I'd favour Allen but I don't Johnno likes him and Barritt brings plenty of muscle which the England set up seem to like in their centres. Phase out Cueto over the summer tour/ autumn internationals of 2012 once we've found a winger that can kick. This of course doesn't allow for fluctuating form or injuries.

Sam can't really argue with that for once!

http://www.thisisleicestershire.co.uk/Leicester-Tigers-centre-Anthony-Allen-battles/story-13025252-detail/story.html

Interview with Anthony Allen you might find quite interesting.

Well the England side is very nearly a damn good one. Just needs some young injecting into the backrow and a change around in the midfield. Things I'm sure the management will look at as they've systematically rebuilt the rest of the first team in recent years.

'Manu's Boxing Coach'

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I do like Saull as a player but he hasn't been at the forefront of Sarries this year and has been replaced by Burger. Has he really shown the form this season to warrant a place in the squad?[/quote]

Whilst Moody does?? he has been injured for most of the season. He missed the six nations and only played a couple of games towards the end of the season, both of which he did not deserve to start as young Bath flanker Guy Mercer was in form and playing very well.

I wouldn't say Saull has been replaced by Burger, the flankers seem to alternate and Saull appeared regularly throughout the season, however injury towards the end of this season led to Brown, Burger and Joubert cementing their positions in the starting Saracens back row.

In my opinion, Moody provides little to nothing going forward, he's not even that strong at protecting the breakdown. He isn't used as a lineout option and in defense he may be committed, but this can lead him missing tackles, giving away penalties and leaving gaps which the better teams would exploit.

Robshaw and Haskell would be my inclusions in the England World Cup squad to play at openside.

Surely Wood and Croft in the same back row is a stupid idea. They are both very similar players with neither a particularly good ball carrier or link-man. Don't get me wrong I rate both players, they are effective in the lineout and in defense around the park, but balance is the most important aspect of a backrow and 'formerly known as Sam' simply doesn't understand this.

In what way is Croft not a good ball carrier or link man? That's an absurd statement.

I don't think Wood and Croft are particularly similar at all, other than the fact that they both contribute to the line-out.

My 2012 6N team for England

1.Sheridan
2.Hartley(vc)
3.Cole
4.Lawes
5.Palmer
6.Croft
7.Wood
8.Easter(c)

9.Youngs
10.Flood
11.Banahan
12.Allen
13.Tuilagi
14.Ashton
15.Foden

but balance is the most important aspect of a backrow and 'formerly known as Sam' simply doesn't understand this

Haskell is a good ball carrier but terrible link man and the same goes for Robshaw. Robshaw is a tackle machine and not much else. Haskell has the speed and the power but not the subtlety and the savvy. Wood is at least handy at the breakdown. Despite looking similar Wood and Croft play in very different ways. Wood stays around the breakdown looking to support, tackle and attack the breakdown. Croft roams the further out looking to re-inforce the backline, make covering tackles and generally hit the breakdown as it forms.

I can the see the backrow working though I'd much prefer a scavenger to aid us in the main area of weakness which continues to be the breakdown. If Tom Rees is fit he would do nicely but the only other scavenging seven we've got has just left for France.

Agreed with FunnyExiledScot and Sam - Croft makes for a good balance with Wood and doesn't lack in ball carrying and link up play

funnyExiledScot wrote:.......or rather one of the English qualified numbers 8's needs to step up and outperform Nick Easter in club rugby, and earn the England shirt on merit.

The likes of Narraway, Guest and Crane are the ones that need to do the improving.

Quite but its hugely unlkley that would be enough to get him dropped from the squad.



I forgot Palmer was staying in France. That could present a really tough choice for England, I suspect they will try and find away round their rule (exceptional cirumstances clause) for him, or maybe give him the one season to sort out his contract. Hes ncertainly unlkley to be dropped altogether, if he keeps up the form he showed form his return he'll be hard to replace.

robshaw4england I absolutely agree. As some people might know on here I do rate Andy Saull very highly. Almost as much as you rate Robshaw.


http://www.premiershiprugby.com/squads.php?player=33376&includeref=dynamic

http://www.premiershiprugby.com/squads.php?player=10795&includeref=dynamic

Saull started 12 matches, replacement in 7. I think he was injured at the beginning of the season too.

In comparison Jacques Burger started 15 matches, replacement in 2.

Not much difference in game time.

Saull is the complete opposite to Burger. Burger suits the Saracens game plan more but Saull is more dynamic and quicker.

I don't rate Haskell at all. Good ball carrier but few brains and one dimensional.

Would be happy with Robshaw,Wood or Croft at 6 or 7. Moody wouldn't be too bad either.

It's the dead wood in the backrow like Worsley,Waldrom and Fourie which needs ejecting.

I dont think anybody will be dropped after the RWC. Players like Shaw,Tindall,
Worsley, and probably Moody will simply retire from international rugby.

I do expect to see a different eps for the 2012 6ns with new players being brought in

HAve to say i think Wood and Croft are very different players...but with the handy aspect of both being strong lineout jumpers...

Unless a whole bunch of players decide to retire, I would be surprised to see too many changes as, unless you are Marc Lievremont, you don't just make wholesale changes for the sake of it.
A big variable in this is whether MJ is in charge. If England don't do well in NZ (probably reach the semis) will MJ still be there? If he goes, a new coach may have a totally different game plan/mind set which may dictate what players come in and which ones leave.

Injured,

I do agree actually that changes will only made predominantly through retirees and that MJ's stance through his entire reign has been stability...which i totally agree with.

However he has not been afraid to make the changes and has brought a whole raft of youngsters in, in that time.

I just think the likes of hape etc...need to watch themselves or they will be replaced post WC