All Time Greatest Top 15

In response to Rowleys earlier suggestion and the fact it's been a slow thought I may as well get this start, you know the jist of it by now simply give your all time top 15 then i'll collate the votes and we'll our very own definitive 606V2 all time pound for pound list

1. Robinson
2. Armstrong
3. Greb
4. Charles
5. Fitzsimmons
6. Tunney
7. Ali
8. Duran
9. Jofre
10. B. Leonard
11. Langford
12. Pep
13. Leonard
14. Ross
15. Gans

https://www.606v2.com/t10022-revised-top-50-atg-pound-for-pound-list

Been there done that should merge it with my thread...As for the list where is Floyd Mayweather Jr, Sugar Ray Leonard, Tommy Hearns etc?

The fact you have Duran there is laughable

Ali is too low

You don't know what's going on here do you PBF

1) Robinson
2) Greb
3) Armstrong
4) Ali
5) Langford
6) Charles
7) Fitzsimmons
8) Benny Leonard
9) Tunney
10) Jofre
11) SR Leonard
12) Duran
13) Ross
14) Gans
15) Moore

Ayup Ghosty, as ever there are a couple of tweaks in mine.

1a) Henry Armstrong 1b) Ray Robinson 3) Harry Greb 4) Ezzard Charles 5) Muhammad Ali 6) Sam Langford 7) Roberto Duran 8) Bob Fitzsimmons 9) Benny Leonard 10) Eder Jofre 11) Ray Leonard 12) Barney Ross 13) Gene Tunney 14) Pernell Whitaker 15) Carlos Monzon

Cheers.

Can I get away with sneaking Burley in there somewhere?

Do what you want Jeff, he's a certainty for the top 25/30.

Mine changes daily Chris, initially forgot SRL before it was pointed out to me.

My top five never change, but thereafter I change the order every time I think about it, though the names are almost always the same.

1.Robinson
2.Armstrong
3.Jofre
4.Ali / Greb ( tie )
6.Langford
7.Charles
8.Duran
9.Fitzsimmons
10.Leonard ( Ray )
11.Louis
12.Leonard ( Benny )
13.Tunney
14.Pep / Saddler ( Tie )

The inclusion of Saddler might raise a few eyebrows but, since I can never separate Pep and Saddler atop the featherweights, it seems logical that I should encounter the same problem in the p4p stakes.

Joe Louis might not be a popular choice, either, but my reasoning behind his inclusion is pretty straightforward. In the first instance, I believe him to have been the most technically complete of all heavyweight champions, and in the second I believe that the margin separating him from Ali atop the heavyweight division is an extremely narrow one, all things considered, and since Ali enjoys a lofty perch among my fifteen it would be utterly illogical to not find a place for Louis.

Windy for the sake of the scoring could you seperate Ali/Greb and Pep/Saddler?

Ghosty the IBRO have Duran at seven so if it is indeed laughable to have him in there it does appear you are not in bad company, as for Floyd can only speak for myself but personally prefer to keep active fighters out of these lists. Is impossible to assess a career until it is over, don't think for a minute it will happen but if Floyd gets smacked around by Ortiz this obviously affects how he deserves to be viewed.

rowley wrote:Ghosty the IBRO have Duran at seven so if it is indeed laughable to have him in there it does appear you are not in bad company, as for Floyd can only speak for myself but personally prefer to keep active fighters out of these lists. Is impossible to assess a career until it is over, don't think for a minute it will happen but if Floyd gets smacked around by Ortiz this obviously affects how he deserves to be viewed.

My list is better than theirs...Duran got smacked around by Hearns yet gets lauded to the top 10.

The ring magazine had him at 5 in their 80 fighters of the past 80 years with only really Langford and Fitzsimmons being realistic fighters who could ranked higher before 1922 so i'm happy with where I have him Jeff. If your Hopkins then your current standing isn't going to lower but it could possibly increase, losing to Dawson at 46 isn't a massive deal but beating him at that age could be another magnificent feat.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Windy for the sake of the scoring could you seperate Ali/Greb and Pep/Saddler?

If I must, Ghosty.

For today, and today only :

4.Greb
5.Ali
14.Pep
15.Saddler

Thanks Windy, when I come to count up the votes i'll get confused when they don't add up.

1. SRR
2. Armstrong
3. Greb
4. Charles
5. Ali
6. Langford
7. Pep
8. Duran
9. Ray Leonard
10. Benny Leonard
11. Ross
12. Fitzsimmons
13. Whitaker
14. Tunney
15. JC Chavez

I'm sure I've forgotten someone from the list, but this will do for now!

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Muhammad Ali
3. Harry Greb
4. Henry Armstrong
5. Sugar Ray Leonard
6. Benny Leonard
7. Willie Pep
8. Tommy Hearns
9. Pernell Whitaker
10. Lennox Lewis
11. Joe Louis
12. Sam Langford
13. Gene Tunney
14. Ezzard Charles
15. Eder Jofre

If allowed to vote current boxers then:

1. Floyd Mayweather Jr
2. Sugar Ray Robinson
3. Muhammad Ali
4. Harry Greb
5. Henry Armstrong
6. Sugar Ray Leonard
7. Benny Leonard
8. Willie Pep
9. Tommy Hearns
10. Pernell Whitaker
11. Lennox Lewis
12. Joe Louis
13. Sam Langford
14. Gene Tunney
15. Ezzard Charles

The genius of PBF wrote:

rowley wrote:Ghosty the IBRO have Duran at seven so if it is indeed laughable to have him in there it does appear you are not in bad company, as for Floyd can only speak for myself but personally prefer to keep active fighters out of these lists. Is impossible to assess a career until it is over, don't think for a minute it will happen but if Floyd gets smacked around by Ortiz this obviously affects how he deserves to be viewed.

My list is better than theirs...Duran got smacked around by Hearns yet gets lauded to the top 10.

Matter of opinion, PBF. Everybody has an opinion.

Mine, for example, would be that your top fifty list stank, and particularly so since it appeared to be a random reworking of somebody else's for the first twenty followed by a haphazard collection of names which required several edits before it made anything remotely akin to sense.

Just mulling over a glass of rose. On talent rather than achievement. Where would calzaghe feature in a top 50.

I'll leave you with that thought while I take a dip. Too hot here to stay out of it for too long.

Wouldn't be in the top 50

The genius of PBF wrote:

rowley wrote:Ghosty the IBRO have Duran at seven so if it is indeed laughable to have him in there it does appear you are not in bad company, as for Floyd can only speak for myself but personally prefer to keep active fighters out of these lists. Is impossible to assess a career until it is over, don't think for a minute it will happen but if Floyd gets smacked around by Ortiz this obviously affects how he deserves to be viewed.

My list is better than theirs...Duran got smacked around by Hearns yet gets lauded to the top 10.

No, a fat old Duran fighting possibly the best WW of all time in his prime when he was something like 20lbs above his best weight, got smacked around.

Can we have this argument somewhere else please.

Ghosty, may be worth following this up with a British top 15, once folk have had time to get their votes in on this.

The genius of PBF wrote:

rowley wrote:Ghosty the IBRO have Duran at seven so if it is indeed laughable to have him in there it does appear you are not in bad company, as for Floyd can only speak for myself but personally prefer to keep active fighters out of these lists. Is impossible to assess a career until it is over, don't think for a minute it will happen but if Floyd gets smacked around by Ortiz this obviously affects how he deserves to be viewed.

My list is better than theirs...Duran got smacked around by Hearns yet gets lauded to the top 10.

Yep, got smacked around by Hearns at Light-Middleweight, but not before dominating the Lightweight division for seven years and stepping up to 147 lb and dethroning a top three all-time merchant of that weight class. You and a certain Bostonian seem to forget that Duran's career didn't begin in November 1980.

Anyway, I've said my bit, won't derail the thread getting in to this old argument with you again.

Will do Rowley, will give this a week or so to give everyone a chance to get their votes in, the british one really will be a new vs old scenario.

1) Robinson
2) Ali
3) Armstrong
4) Greb
5) Langford
6) Charles
7) Fitzsimmons
8) Benny Leonard
9) Tunney
10) Moore
11) SR Leonard
12) Duran
13) Hagler
14) Gans
15) Hearns

To be honest Ghosty will be more impressed if you can get through it without an Is Fitzsimmons British argument, but worth a try.

1) Robinson 2) Armstrong 3) Jofre 4) Ali 5) Greb 6) Charles 7) Fitzsimmons 8) Langford 9) Benny Leonard 10) Tunney 11) Saddler 12) Pep 13) Ray Leonard 14) Whitaker 15) Duran

HumanWindmill wrote:
Mine, for example, would be that your top fifty list stank, and particularly so since it appeared to be a random reworking of somebody else's for the first twenty followed by a haphazard collection of names which required several edits before it made anything remotely akin to sense.

Sorry Windy, I don't quite get what you mean?

Anyways, here you go Ghosty.

1. Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Harry Greb
4. Muhammad Ali
5. Ezzard Charles
6. Eder Jofre
7. Sam Langford
8. Roberto Duran
9. Benny Leonard
10. Ray Leonard
11. Willie Pep
12. Bob Fitzsimmons
13. Pernell Whitaker
14. Joe Louis
15. Ricardo Lopez

Fitzsimmons and Mclarnin will both be ineligible Jeff, i'll say that now.

HumanWindmill wrote:

The genius of PBF wrote:

rowley wrote:Ghosty the IBRO have Duran at seven so if it is indeed laughable to have him in there it does appear you are not in bad company, as for Floyd can only speak for myself but personally prefer to keep active fighters out of these lists. Is impossible to assess a career until it is over, don't think for a minute it will happen but if Floyd gets smacked around by Ortiz this obviously affects how he deserves to be viewed.

My list is better than theirs...Duran got smacked around by Hearns yet gets lauded to the top 10.

Matter of opinion, PBF. Everybody has an opinion.

Mine, for example, would be that your top fifty list stank, and particularly so since it appeared to be a random reworking of somebody else's for the first twenty followed by a haphazard collection of names which required several edits before it made anything remotely akin to sense.

I think your top 15 list stinks as well

Windys list looks alright to me.

The genius of PBF wrote:

HumanWindmill wrote:

The genius of PBF wrote:

rowley wrote:Ghosty the IBRO have Duran at seven so if it is indeed laughable to have him in there it does appear you are not in bad company, as for Floyd can only speak for myself but personally prefer to keep active fighters out of these lists. Is impossible to assess a career until it is over, don't think for a minute it will happen but if Floyd gets smacked around by Ortiz this obviously affects how he deserves to be viewed.

My list is better than theirs...Duran got smacked around by Hearns yet gets lauded to the top 10.

Matter of opinion, PBF. Everybody has an opinion.

Mine, for example, would be that your top fifty list stank, and particularly so since it appeared to be a random reworking of somebody else's for the first twenty followed by a haphazard collection of names which required several edits before it made anything remotely akin to sense.

I think your top 15 list stinks as well

That is your prerogative, PBF.

One minor difference between us, however, is that I don't make a habit of decrying the opinions of others as being laughable. Given your tenuous grip on the subject of boxing history you might be well advised to do the same.

In the meantime, I hope that you, like me, will have sufficient respect for this article to not clutter it with sparring. By all means PM should you wish to continue with it.

I actually agree with PBF anyone who has that ducker Robinson above Burley is clearly a Wum, I only did it because I wanted to avoid arguments.

HumanWindmill wrote:

The genius of PBF wrote:

HumanWindmill wrote:

The genius of PBF wrote:

rowley wrote:Ghosty the IBRO have Duran at seven so if it is indeed laughable to have him in there it does appear you are not in bad company, as for Floyd can only speak for myself but personally prefer to keep active fighters out of these lists. Is impossible to assess a career until it is over, don't think for a minute it will happen but if Floyd gets smacked around by Ortiz this obviously affects how he deserves to be viewed.

My list is better than theirs...Duran got smacked around by Hearns yet gets lauded to the top 10.

Matter of opinion, PBF. Everybody has an opinion.

Mine, for example, would be that your top fifty list stank, and particularly so since it appeared to be a random reworking of somebody else's for the first twenty followed by a haphazard collection of names which required several edits before it made anything remotely akin to sense.

I think your top 15 list stinks as well

That is your prerogative, PBF.

One minor difference between us, however, is that I don't make a habit of decrying the opinions of others as being laughable. Given your tenuous grip on the subject of boxing history you might be well advised to do the same.

In the meantime, I hope that you, like me, will have sufficient respect for this article to not clutter it with sparring. By all means PM should you wish to continue with it.

Fine but im not the one that tried to get personal.

Yes, you were :

The genius of PBF wrote:https://www.606v2.com/t10022-revised-top-50-atg-pound-for-pound-list

Been there done that should merge it with my thread...As for the list where is Floyd Mayweather Jr, Sugar Ray Leonard, Tommy Hearns etc?

The fact you have Duran there is laughable

I merely expressed an opinion, whereas you ( as per usual, ) derided another person's opinion.

Re: Revised Top 50 ATG Pound for Pound List
by Imperial Ghosty on Fri Jul 22, 2011 12:11 pm


Tunney, Charles, Jofre, Fitzsimmons, Arguello and Duran are far too low, in no shape or form should Hearns be higher than any of them

De La Hoya, LaMotta and Lewis shouldn't be in a top 50 at all

Other than that i'd be here years correcting it

Haven't read through the responses, so pardon me if my viewpoint is at odds with your thinking, but possibly Charles, Tunney, Leonard too high.



Tunney- the colour line counts as a black mark on his legacy. How many more losses on his record but for this?


Charles- great fighter but not a helluva fighter, lacked killer instinct.


Ray Leonard- not enough bread and butter fights.



Barney Ross possibly a bit high too, maybe top 15-25. All the others pretty nailed on. Might find a place for Jimmy Wilde- not too many fighters can rightfully lay claim to being undisputed number one at their weight(not even Duran can do that,) too much emphasis on the Villa loss when way past his best, so yes Jimmy Wilde in there- King of the Flyweights

Had this discussion about Tunney before but which black fighter should he have fought?

Charles is without doubt a great fighter and one of the very very best, his resume at light heavyweight is second to none and that's sandwiched by some very good wins at both middleweight and Heavyweight.

PBF I was stating an opinion rather than making things personal

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Had this discussion about Tunney before but which black fighter should he have fought?

Charles is without doubt a great fighter and one of the very very best, his resume at light heavyweight is second to none and that's sandwiched by some very good wins at both middleweight and Heavyweight.

PBF I was stating an opinion rather than making things personal

So was I

Herman the colour line rap is one that can be levelled at a number of fighters but Tunney is not particularly one of them. When he won his heavyweight title Wills was awarded an elimination fight which he promptly lost so he was not really a viable opponent. To the best of my knowledge there wre not many outstanding black contenders during his light heavy days but am willing to stand corrected on that if wrong.

Charles was a cracking fighter, whilst it is true on the back of an opponents death he lost some of his finishing instincts, three wins over Moore and two over Burley (both lucky I should add) as well as a more than impressive record against the bulk of the rest of the black murderers row mark him out as the best of probably the most talent rich division in the sport, add into that his heavyweight exploits and for me he more than deserves a top ten berth, and at the higher reaches.

The genius of PBF wrote:Re: Revised Top 50 ATG Pound for Pound List
by Imperial Ghosty on Fri Jul 22, 2011 12:11 pm


Tunney, Charles, Jofre, Fitzsimmons, Arguello and Duran are far too low, in no shape or form should Hearns be higher than any of them

De La Hoya, LaMotta and Lewis shouldn't be in a top 50 at all

Other than that i'd be here years correcting it

What's your point ?

Ghosty was expressing a boxing opinion. Not once did he stoop to deriding your opinion as being ' laughable ' and neither was he disrespectful.

Anyway, this is ruining the thread, which is something for which you have a penchant. I'm not discussing this with you in public, and if you have any respect for the forum ( about which I'm unsure, since you have twice been banned, ) you will let this drop or continue it via PM.

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Harry Greb
3. Henry Armstrong
4. Bob Fitzsimmons
5. Muhammad Ali
6. Ezzard Charles
7. Sam Langford
8. Willie Pep
9. Gene Tunney
10. Archie Moore
11. Roberto Duran
12. Mickey Walker
13. Benny Leonard
14. Joe Louis
15. Sugar Ray Leonard

Would be a good thread- which couored fighters could Tunney have fought?



Also does Tunney get too much credit for a win over an inactive almost shot Dempsey. several other fighters could have the job for Tunney- Wills, Godfrey spring to mind.


Can't argue with Charles' record jeff, would like to do a bit more research on the man to be honest. All I really know is the Baroudi incident, and he was a good violinist in his youth. Gut say 15-25 though. Happily be proved wrong though

Wills and Godfrey were never in line for a fight with Tunney, at the stage he became Heavyweight champion he deals with anyone in the world with ease.

I'd be interested to see which 15-20 fighters you could possibly have above Charles.

For me Herman Tunney does not get in solely on his heavyweight exploits which are admittedly a little thin however at light heavy he was excellent, multiple wins over Harry Greb, as well as the likes of Loughran, Levinsky and Carpentier mark him out as one of the finest that division has ever seen. Think you would also have to say that a win over an even admittedly inactive Dempsey is one heck of a win. Personally I am not particularly convinced Wills beats Dempsey, think his stock has risen through the fight never happening, if you look at their common opponents Jack tended to perform better, but that is a different debate for a different day.

Haven't got time ghosty, another time.


You miss my point slightly though- I said Wills and Godfrey could have beaten Dempsey instead of Tunney.


Also- a bit contentious- does Tunney get too much credit for his series with the great Greb remembering the weight difference?

Herman Frotchlinger wrote:Can't argue with Charles' record jeff, would like to do a bit more research on the man to be honest. All I really know is the Baroudi incident, and he was a good violinist in his youth. Gut say 15-25 though. Happily be proved wrong though

To put Charles and his record in to the simplest context I can, I'll say this. Archie Moore would, I'm sure, rank inside everyone's top three Light-Heavyweights of all time (and let's remember what a brilliant division it's been over the decades). Charles dominated him 3-0. There is not a single other fighter in history who has been so consistently dominant over a genuine all-time top three man in their best division as Charles was against Moore, with Saddler-Pep being the only truly example of anyone else coming close to this. In that respect, Charles stands pretty much alone. Throw in wins over men such as Burley, Maxim, Christoforidis, Yarosz etc, and his achievements between 160 lb and 175 lb alone probably entitle him to a low end top ten spot.

Then of course we have his Heavyweight exploits, and it just adds to his credentials even further that, getting on in years and outside of his best weight class, he still performed so well in that division. There is a tendancy to think that Charles was a stop-gap champion at Heavyweight, but he wasn't. Eight defences of the NBA crown which he eventually unified with the NYSAC version, 2-2 with Jersey Joe, couple of decent other wins over an aged Louis and Lesnevich. So in my estimations, you've got THE greatest 175 lb fighter of all time, who went on to become a borderline top fifteen Heavyweight, too.

All things considered, it's simply impossible to have him outside the top ten.

Wills may have stood a chance against Dempsey although Dempsey would be a clear favourite but wouldn't give Godfrey any sort of chance in all honesty

Not when you consider how well Greb dealt with everyone else in the light heavyweight division giving up weight to most of them as well.

Herman Frotchlinger wrote:Also- a bit contentious- does Tunney get too much credit for his series with the great Greb remembering the weight difference?

I don't think so. Greb was the smaller man naturally, for sure, but don't forget that he was 4-1-1 against a genuine top ten Light-Heavyweight of all time in Loughran, as well as beating the likes of Levinsky, Dillon, McTigue etc, all world champions at 175 lb. Can't have it both ways.