The game that dare not speak its name : Ireland v England 27 August

by Portnoy Fri 12 Aug 2011, 7:27 pm

This is a match between the two top European sides. Neither of which can harbour realistic hopes of ulimate success.
But local bragging rights always count for something.

England need to lay the GS demons to rest.
Ireland have less to prove (especially if they beat France).

But momentum is everything - even if not in this case to the RWC, then the next four years where I'd hope to see this fixture as the final in 2015.

Last time out Ireland stood on England's throats and squeezed the life out of them.
But MJ will be expecting to restore pride and to win in Dublin.

And DK will not be ignorant to this.

So that makes it a full-on Test Match. Like it or like it not.
Irrespective of the RWC.

It means more to England, but momentum matters.

by Shifty Fri 12 Aug 2011, 7:30 pm

Ireland all the way for me, those English players won;t forget the hammering there last time and Ireland seem to dislike the English more than anyone these days.

by Portnoy Fri 12 Aug 2011, 7:34 pm

AlynDavies wrote:Ireland all the way for me, those English players won;t forget the hammering there last time and Ireland seem to dislike the English more than anyone these days.

That goes without saying Alyn, you are alive, not English and a rugby fan.

Of course you'd be supporting Ireland. It's a given.

by Shifty Fri 12 Aug 2011, 7:55 pm

Portnoy wrote:
AlynDavies wrote:Ireland all the way for me, those English players won;t forget the hammering there last time and Ireland seem to dislike the English more than anyone these days.

That goes without saying Alyn, you are alive, not English and a rugby fan.

Of course you'd be supporting Ireland. It's a given.

Actually I don't mind who wins to be honest. I like the Irish fans, but have no affinity for their team to be honest. Being Welsh I support Wales and have a soft spot for Scotland, but Ireland to me have never felt like one of "us".
It's nothing against the people it's probably just I have seen so, so many dire Ireland V Wales games over the years, it's probably the worst game Wales can play in terms of quality. 1993 was the worst of the lot, I'd rather watch Wales losing 96-13 to South Africa than see the 1993 Ireland game again furious

.

by majesticimperialman Fri 12 Aug 2011, 9:16 pm

In the 6ns both teams was under pressure England to win the Grand Slam and Ireland to prove that they do have aleast one good game in them.

Both these teams will not want to lose this game and i expect a cracking game to be honest....It will be a difficult game a hard fought game and a close result in my opinion.

by doctor_grey Fri 12 Aug 2011, 10:38 pm

Regardless of all backdrop to this, I still see this as a pre-RWC warm-up match. Not the full blooded test match in the Six Nations. The coaces know it and so do the players.

Here's the question; If England win, does that erase or somehow minimise the loss to Ireland nack in March? I wouldn't think so.

by The Great Aukster Fri 12 Aug 2011, 10:55 pm

Do Nike have the 'England beat Ireland' T-shirts printed yet?

by Backrower678 Sat 13 Aug 2011, 4:57 pm

The Great Aukster wrote:Do Nike have the 'England beat Ireland' T-shirts printed yet?

i like this

by Portnoy Fri 19 Aug 2011, 3:29 pm

After two disappointing performances in the warm-ups from both sides,surely the Dublin game is beginning to take on some significance?

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Fri 19 Aug 2011, 3:38 pm

Portnoy wrote:This is a match between the two top European sides.

Hmm, think France might have something to say about that?

Portnoy wrote:Neither of which can harbour realistic hopes of ulimate success.

Hmm, England will likely have a decent run to the semis, avoiding teams ranked above them; Ireland are comfortable playing against the Boks, so semi within their reach too

Portnoy wrote:But momentum is everything - even if not in this case to the RWC, then the next four years where I'd hope to see this fixture as the final in 2015.

Hmm, reckon you're dreaming there, the big 3 from the SH are unlikely all to fold?

by maestegmafia Fri 19 Aug 2011, 3:49 pm

I am really looking forward to this match. England and Ireland haven't really had a great time during August and I imagine both will put out full strength teams and not want to loose.

This game will have huge significance to the World Cup. Ireland could loose again to the French this weekend putting them in a poor run of 3 loses in 3 and England looked very deflated after last weeks game in Cardiff and should they lose to Ireland, 2 loses in 2 is not what they were expecting. No one wants to go into the Pool Stages with that noose around their necks.

Can't wait, should be an awesome match. Usually is between these two.

By the way Portnoy I think you'll find that France are currently the best team in Europe, and since the last RWC in 2007 England have won less matches against European teams than France, Ireland and Wales.

by Thomond Fri 19 Aug 2011, 4:08 pm

Ireland's biggest game is against France,it is our first team if we don't win,then we're in trouble. I don't think we will play too strong a team against England.

by Feckless Rogue Fri 19 Aug 2011, 4:12 pm

I hope we beat those English. They raped our homes, and burned our land and pillaged our women you know. grrrrr. Braveheart

by TheGreyGhost Fri 19 Aug 2011, 4:25 pm

Portnoy wrote:This is a match between the two top European sides.

Didn't Wales become the top European side when they defeated the ~~grandslam~~ 6 Nations champions?

by Jenifer McLadyboy Fri 19 Aug 2011, 4:29 pm

Feckless Rogue wrote:I hope we beat those English. They raped our homes, and burned our land and pillaged our women you know. grrrrr.

They ate my women and slept with my food!!!! boxing

The barstards!! Death to them all!! furious

by Feckless Rogue Fri 19 Aug 2011, 4:51 pm

I'm not surprised Jenifer. That would be typical English behavior. The feicers. Probably went back to England and got medals for it too.

by maestegmafia Fri 19 Aug 2011, 5:02 pm

TheGreyGhost wrote:
Portnoy wrote:This is a match between the two top European sides.

Didn't Wales become the top European side when they defeated the ~~grandslam~~ 6 Nations champions?

Thats a nice thought, but surely on that line of thinking we would have needed to play and beat Ireland, or in fact France, who beat Ireland. Mind you, considering France lost to Italy and England thrashed Italy and narrowly beat France maybe that does make us top...!

Though i would say with our record of four wins in 12 games we probably aren't. France are highest in the Rankings lets presume they are the best...

by yappysnap Fri 19 Aug 2011, 5:17 pm

Feckless Rogue wrote:I'm not surprised Jenifer. That would be typical English behavior. The feicers. Probably went back to England and got medals for it too.

For eating the women and stealing the food?! By jove that's knighthood material right there!

Tbh i expect Ireland to embarass us again unless something drastic happens in both camps, i would be exstatic if we did beat them though Yahoo

by Feckless Rogue Fri 19 Aug 2011, 5:23 pm

Ireland really beat England well this year, and also in '07. But nearly every other game we've played since '03 has been very close. A few of Ireland's victory's could have gone the other way. So you shouldn't be so pessimistic yappysnap. It's possible to attack Ireland's set piece and really limit the amount of good ball we get.

by doctor_grey Sun 21 Aug 2011, 12:31 pm

Feckless Rogue wrote:I hope we beat those English. They raped our homes, and burned our land and pillaged our women you know. grrrrr.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:They ate my women and slept with my food!!!! The barstards!! Death to them all!!

Actually, I think that was Rupert Murdoch direting the News Of The World. And Sky, and Fox News, and so on. Then mis-reporting it. And hacking the phone, to boot, to blame on Labour and the Lib Dems.

by boomeranga Sun 21 Aug 2011, 12:34 pm

When are the Irish and English squads named?

by Breadvan Sun 21 Aug 2011, 12:58 pm

maestegmafia wrote:
TheGreyGhost wrote:
Portnoy wrote:This is a match between the two top European sides.

Didn't Wales become the top European side when they defeated the ~~grandslam~~ 6 Nations champions?
Thats a nice thought, but surely on that line of thinking we would have needed to play and beat Ireland, or in fact France, who beat Ireland. Mind you, considering France lost to Italy and England thrashed Italy and narrowly beat France maybe that does make us top...!

Though i would say with our record of four wins in 12 games we probably aren't. France are highest in the Rankings lets presume they are the best...

by majesticimperialman Sun 21 Aug 2011, 2:02 pm

boomeranga wrote:When are the Irish and English squads named?

I do believe it is tomorrow abot 12oclock.

by Portnoy Sun 21 Aug 2011, 7:19 pm

There is always a chance to get their retaliation in first.

On Thursday Ireland have the chance to repeat their CWC victory over England (Even if Eoin Morgan is captaining the English Lions).

And before you politely ask, I'd much prefer the 'England' Tag. MCC seems much more appropriate.

by Thomond Sun 21 Aug 2011, 7:36 pm

The cricketers won't win also the Irish squad is one o'clock tomorrow according to a paper I read. It will be on irishrugby.ie

by majesticimperialman Sun 21 Aug 2011, 8:30 pm

Both coaches name their 30 man squad tomorrow for the RWC, with Ireland and England having 1 more so called (warm up)game to play.

Although i do not expect any love to be lost between the 2 teams, both teams will be going for a win.

One thing i do want to see next week is players going off with an injury, not this close to RWC, is this game too near the RWC to be effective for either team...Also you will know that whoever takes to the field next week will actualy be going to NZ.

Lets hope it is a cracking game with no injuries to either side. Yahoo

by Portnoy Sun 21 Aug 2011, 9:21 pm

One thing is for sure - both MJ anf DK will have to reveal their strongest hands come Saturday (injuries excepted).

I'm inclined to see a repeat of the shabby performance from England in the 6Ns. But who knows until after the teams are announced?

by **Notch** Sun 21 Aug 2011, 9:55 pm

Portnoy wrote:One thing is for sure - both MJ anf DK will have to reveal their strongest hands come Saturday (injuries excepted).

Well... I think Trimble has been our best player of the summer. But he won't be picked because we've seen him play in three games and Tommy Bowe needs gametime. He might play on the opposite wing, but probably not. Likewise Ferris and Wallace need gametime so those two will start on the flanks with O'Brien dropping to the bench.

There's two changes we might not make if it was the World Cup starting tomorrow. We'll probably start O'Gara ahead of Sexton as well. Not that the inclusion of Ferris, Bowe and O'Gara ahead of O'Brien, Trimble and Sexton really weakens us but it will still be treated as a warm-up. Despite the fact I feel we need the win.

by Portnoy Mon 22 Aug 2011, 11:26 am

Notch wrote:
There's two changes we might not make if it was the World Cup starting tomorrow. We'll probably start O'Gara ahead of Sexton as well. Not that the inclusion of Ferris, Bowe and O'Gara ahead of O'Brien, Trimble and Sexton really weakens us but it will still be treated as a warm-up. Despite the fact I feel we need the win.

Interesting. I would have thought that both sides really need a bit of momentum surely? Even a tad.

England probably the more because they haven't really performed since the 3rd 6Ns game and have been back-peddling badly since.

And Ireland have an awful summer friendlies campaign in terms of results (but better than England in terms of performance).

by Portnoy Tue 23 Aug 2011, 8:21 am

My England team for Saturday:

Cole
Hartley
Corbisero
Lawes
Palmer
Wood
Easter
Croft

Simpson (assuming Youngs is still unfit / being packed in cotton wool)
Flood

Cueto
Hape
Manu
Ashton
Foden

Sheridan
Thompson
Deacon
Haskell
Wigglesworth
Tindall
Armitage

by Gatts Tue 23 Aug 2011, 8:46 am

Ireland must win this game, England can do without.

If Ireland put England away it will give them the momentum they need to take on Australia for the group on sept 18. Winning Group c means they will likely avoid the boks in the quarters and face Wales/Fiji/Samoa...an infinitely better choice

by Mickado Tue 23 Aug 2011, 8:51 am

Portnoy wrote:One thing is for sure - both MJ anf DK will have to reveal their strongest hands come Saturday (injuries excepted).

I'm inclined to see a repeat of the shabby performance from England in the 6Ns. But who knows until after the teams are announced?

Not really.
Our strongest hand right now wouldn’t include players coming back from injury. Our strongest hand would be the best players from the last 3 tests, known quantities.

I’m sure the likes of Bowe, Wallace, Ferris, Murphy will be fine when they come back, but we’re forced to play them regardless of form.

by Portnoy Tue 23 Aug 2011, 8:57 am

Gatts wrote:Ireland must win this game, England can do without.

If Ireland put England away it will give them the momentum they need to take on Australia for the group on sept 18. Winning Group c means they will likely avoid the boks in the quarters and face Wales/Fiji/Samoa...an infinitely better choice

Equally it's a must win for England. MJ has clearly gone for the bludgeon approach in the first two games but have failed to find any guile to back it up.

Big game for salvaging some confidence and a tiny bit of momentum.

by Gatts Tue 23 Aug 2011, 9:08 am

Portnoy wrote:
Gatts wrote:Ireland must win this game, England can do without.

If Ireland put England away it will give them the momentum they need to take on Australia for the group on sept 18. Winning Group c means they will likely avoid the boks in the quarters and face Wales/Fiji/Samoa...an infinitely better choice

Equally it's a must win for England. BJ has clearly gone for the bludgeon approach in the first two games but have failed to find any guile to back it up.

Big game for salvaging some confidence and a tiny bit of momentum.

Agreed regards confidence but not momentum...not a must win for England...I honestly think England are relaxed going into this RWC...they have a history of success at RWC and will build momentum with a clean sweep of their group. They know how to compete in tournament rugby better than any other NH side, they have the easiest group that will buckle under the pressure of a Leicester style war of attrition which is clearly Jonners style and his pick supports this....Argentina are in trouble and without Hernandez they are back to relying on a set piece game that England are much better at.... and although Scotland can upset England for a calcutta cup i think they will feel the English RWC machine grinding them into the New Zealand mud, i would bet on a quarter v a mercurial French side. i am fairly sure they have a sniff at the final. Then all bets are off.

by RubyGuby Tue 23 Aug 2011, 9:12 am

Argentina are more than a match for England up front and behind the scrum there is little creative penetration unless they get Ashton and Foden into the game. I think there is huge pressure on this stumbling England team and a demoralising defeat against Ireland will erode what confidence is left. Argentina must not be underestimated and IMO will pose more of a threat than Scotland thumbsup

by Gatts Tue 23 Aug 2011, 9:21 am

I disagree ref Argentina...I think they lack a cutting edge and have taken two steps back. I do agree that Ashton and foden must be brought into the game especially on the counter and i that is exactly what Jonners is relying on. His midfield will be locked down tight which will force oppostion wide and create opportunities for England's back 3. yes if Ireland smash England and they perform like they did against Wales then confidence will be low but I still belive England will sweep the group and will have both momentum and confidence by the time they face France

by screamingaddabs Tue 23 Aug 2011, 9:35 am

Portnoy wrote:My England team for Saturday:

Cole
Hartley
Corbisero
Lawes
Palmer
Wood
Easter
Croft

Simpson (assuming Youngs is still unfit / being packed in cotton wool)
Flood

Cueto
Hape
Manu
Ashton
Foden

Sheridan
Thompson
Deacon
Haskell
Wigglesworth
Tindall
Armitage

No Wilkinson at all? Wigglesworth can cover 10 in an emergency but I wouldn't have him being the sub 10 when both Flood and Wilko are available. I'd personally play Youngs, though as you say he may be rested. The backs look fairly likely, though I'd play Wilkinson ahead of Flood at the moment. It's tricky though because Flood needs to find some form and he won't do that on the bench. Maybe be give the two tens a half each.

I really hope that one day they work out that sending all your subs on at the same time completely destroys any rhythm the team may have developed and so they don't do it!

by rugbyfan Tue 23 Aug 2011, 10:01 am

RubyGuby wrote:Argentina are more than a match for England up front and behind the scrum there is little creative penetration unless they get Ashton and Foden into the game. I think there is huge pressure on this stumbling England team and a demoralising defeat against Ireland will erode what confidence is left. Argentina must not be underestimated and IMO will pose more of a threat than Scotland

I don't think that Argentina will be anywhere near as impressive this WC compared to last. Yes they still have a very strong forward pack but with no hernandez there is no spark, and they lack a top-class goal kicker to add points when they get the chance. I think a disciplined England will beat them with a little to spare.

by Portnoy Tue 23 Aug 2011, 10:04 am

screamingaddabs wrote:
No Wilkinson at all? Wigglesworth can cover 10 in an emergency but I wouldn't have him being the sub 10 when both Flood and Wilko are available. I'd personally play Youngs, though as you say he may be rested. The backs look fairly likely, though I'd play Wilkinson ahead of Flood at the moment. It's tricky though because Flood needs to find some form and he won't do that on the bench. Maybe be give the two tens a half each.

I really hope that one day they work out that sending all your subs on at the same time completely destroys any rhythm the team may have developed and so they don't do it!

My reasoning is to put Wilko out of harm's way - like Youngs and Moods but especially Jonny - we all know how vulnerable he can be. I agree that he's retained his top spot. And Floody needs to lay some Dublin demons and that the full responsibility for the full eighty would force him to be very clear about what is expected of him. So it's not my best side. But there again I'm not Johnno - and it does still remain 'only' a warm-up.

by LondonWelsh99 Tue 23 Aug 2011, 10:05 am

Ireland have dominated the last five or so years, England have absolutely no pace and the only chance for the Saes is if they can smash Ireland's scrum and Wilko knocks over penalties and d goals.

by LondonWelsh99 Tue 23 Aug 2011, 10:09 am

Johnson won't risk Wilko, Moody, Foden, Sheridan or Ashton in both matches.

Panic Stations?

by RubyGuby Tue 23 Aug 2011, 10:11 am

When are the teams announced?

by Breadvan Tue 23 Aug 2011, 10:13 am

Ireland will be up for this after 3 losses, especially as its England. I just hope we offer a lot more than the last game back in the 6N and cut out the sloppy errors. Another loss in Dublin is on the cards though. Par for the course these days..... Crying or Very sad

by Cymroglan Tue 23 Aug 2011, 10:22 am

RubyGuby wrote:When are the teams announced?

Thursdays seem to be in vogue

by GunsGerms Tue 23 Aug 2011, 10:34 am

I wouldn't be surprised if England won the way Ireland are playing.

by Portnoy Tue 23 Aug 2011, 10:35 am

Breadvan wrote:Ireland will be up for this after 3 losses, especially as its England. I just hope we offer a lot more than the last game back in the 6N and cut out the sloppy errors. Another loss in Dublin is on the cards though. Par for the course these days.....

England will be up for this after a poor set of performances, especially as its in Ireland . I just hope we offer a lot more than the last game back in the 6N and cut out the sloppy errors. Another loss in Dublin is on the cards though. Par for the course these days..... Crying or Very sad

by eirebilly Tue 23 Aug 2011, 10:36 am

I like the idea of playing England on Saturday. I think that it will be a great match with both teams going for it. As for the importnantness of it, well i dont think that the result is all that important it will be more about getting players match fit.

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Tue 23 Aug 2011, 10:45 am

My Irish team for English clash

Healy*-Flannery-Ross
POC-DOC
Ferris-Heaslip-Wallace
Murray-Sexton
Darcy/Wallace-BOD
Earls-Murphy-Bowe*

Court-Best-Cullen-SOB-Boss-ROG-Kearney

*possibly injured

Think this is our best team while giving some other players time on the pitch to build up form and fitness before the RWC.

Really unsure of who to put at 12. Personally I think Wallace is a better player I don't think Darcy adds anything anymore because his standard of carrying has declined since his broken arm against Italy some years ago.

I think he needs to be given a chance but also think Wallace does because Wallace hasn't had the opportunity to play inside BOD yet.

I think I would go with Wallace especially if Hape or Tindall are at 12.

by RubyGuby Tue 23 Aug 2011, 10:48 am

It also seems a bit wreckless having such an intense match the week or so before the RWC - I know what the arguments are for it to hit the ground running etc. however, you don't want to hit the ground limping now do you!!!. Good luck to both and as a neutral observer I cant wait to watch these 2 tribes go to war. thumbsup

by eirebilly Tue 23 Aug 2011, 10:48 am

I am torn between D'Arcy and Paddy. Right now i would start with Paddy as D'Arcy has'nt played well for Ireland for some time. That said though, Paddy is still a very good player to bring on when the going gets tough as he is a very good impact sub. 12 is a real concern for me leading up to the RWC.

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