If I was Martin Johnson

I'd have this is my backline:

9. Care
10. Wilkinson
11.
12. Flood
13. Tindall
14. Ashton
15. Foden

Not sure who your other winger should be. I definitely think Cueto has lost his mojo. I am a fan of Simpson Daniel but not sure if he's fit these days...

JSD is fit but was dropped from the squad.

Care was pretty rubbish in the last two friendlies. He crabs across the field and his inability to utilise the forwards to pick and drive meant to often he threw bullet passes to forwards who were shuffling into position and not looking to recieve the ball. In short his game management needs a major overhaul.

I'd prefer to see;

9.Youngs
10.Wilko (he's in better form)
11.Cueto (bit late to bring anyone else in now)
12.Flutey (see Cueto and he's better than Hape)
13.Manu
14.Ashton (if injured Sharples, need pace)
15.Foden

Bench; 20.Care 21. Flood (injection of attacking intent if we need it) 22. Armitage (covers as 11,13,14,15 and isn't a liability unlike Banahan)

Don't worry Sam, you probably will see that back line at some point in the next game (assuming Youngs is fit). MJ I reckon will pick that line up but with Tindall not Manu and have Manu on the bench, who will come on for Tindall. If you're lucky he might come on before the inevitable Youngs for Care and Flood for Wilko subs he'll make at about 70 minutes for no real reason (not a whinge at MJ per se, more at virtually ALL coaches who seem to bring players on with less than 10 minutes left when the original player looks fine).

I agree with McKay by the way, with Armitage taking that wing spot. I was saying to try Flood at 12 in the last game, it may be too late now unfortunately.

What are the toughts on Wilkinson at 10 and flood at 12?

Myself i would rather not play 2 fly halves at the same time would rather give the likes Flutey, Tualaghi a go.

Michael Lynnagh seems to think it might be a good idea, REE the 11 spot, would like to see if Ashton is fit enough Sharples on the other wing along with Foden at full back, all three have plenty of speed which was missing at the week end.

If Tindall is dropped from this game then i think the captains arm band should be given to Hartley or Easter.

I do think that MJ needs to have a good hard look at the centre partnership of Harpe and Tindall, Harpe as lost some of form he showed in the 6ns and Tindall,well, lets face it he is getting too old for international rugby....Is it too late to look other combinations?.

I've been advocating it since the first game where Flutey was pretty average. Floods played there before with Wilkinson. Normally I like to have people who play their position week in, week out, in that position, but I feel this isn't possible with the two IC options we have who I think are both below par. MJ won't play flood at 12 though, so I really hope Flutey finds form and doesn't get injured.

In my mind we all knew that Hape was going to give limited options at 12 at best, so after seeing Flutey's lack of form I would've given the Wilko Flood combo a go last week. It may well be too late for this now.

Whatever MJ does at 12 next game, lets hope it works, because if it doesn't then we have had problems there in every warm up and not found a solution before playing Argentina.

formerly known as Sam wrote:JSD is fit but was dropped from the squad.

Presumably he kept trying to go around things, rather than run directly into them at the training camp and was discarded for being too diverse.

My only problem with Flood at 12 is threefold.

1. When he played there last he did nothing but kick any ball he got.

2. He has shown that he struggles to play his attacking game with the opposition on top of him and space closed down. At 12 for this England team he's going to have even less time and space to work in so I think he'll resort to problem 1.

3. He is neither a physical player, nore does he have a good step, so the opposition will know that he is going to either pass or kick. Not such a problem in itself as he passes well, but that's exactly the same as Wilko, so that's two guys next to each other, neither of which offer much of a threat to defences themselves. Manu/Tindall can expect gang tackles all game long.

TheGreyGhost wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:JSD is fit but was dropped from the squad.

Presumably he kept trying to go around things, rather than run directly into them at the training camp and was discarded for being too diverse.

Yep much like Chuter and Worsley...

mckay1402 wrote:I'd have this is my backline:

9. Care
10. Wilkinson
11.
12. Flood
13. Tindall
14. Ashton
15. Foden

Not sure who your other winger should be. I definitely think Cueto has lost his mojo. I am a fan of Simpson Daniel but not sure if he's fit these days...

To be honest I can’t understand why Martin Johnson didn’t look to give Sharples a run out, especially since Ashton was injured. Sharples would have been a more like for like replacement for Ashton with his blistering speed. All playing Banahan proved was that he is not up to international level, there is not replacement for speed. (he’s 6’7” and got stopped by SW FFS)

If Sharples showed any promise I would have him there instead of Cueto. Cueto is a solid and experienced player but for me your wingers have to have the killer instinct for the try line, Cueto just doesn’t score or threaten enough for me.

My back line would be:

Youngs
Wilkinson
Sharples
Flutey
Tuilagi
Ashton
Foden

I hope Youngs comes back well from his injury and back into some good form.
Wilkinson just played better than Flood for me, and looked good in the Top 14 last season
Sharples, sod it! it’s not his usual wing on the left, but let’s give him a crack.
Flutey is our only inside centre, Hape has played well at times for Bath, but at outside centre. Tindall doesn’t have the hands and it would be a lot of pressure to put on Manu having not played inside centre. We have tried Wilkinson and Flood at inside centre and it has always failed unfortunately.
Tuilagi is best used at outside centre and was the only centre that has made an impact against Wales.
We know what Ashton can do especially when he links up with Foden.

... I'd go on holiday - oh wait, he did!!

[quote="Jaysus"]

mckay1402 wrote:I'd have this is my backline:


If Sharples showed any promise I would have him there instead of Cueto. Cueto is a solid and experienced player but for me your wingers have to have the killer instinct for the try line, Cueto just doesn’t score or threaten enough for me.

My back line would be:

Youngs
Wilkinson
Sharples
Flutey
Tuilagi
Ashton
Foden

I hope Youngs comes back well from his injury and back into some good form.
Wilkinson just played better than Flood for me, and looked good in the Top 14 last season
Sharples, sod it! it’s not his usual wing on the left, but let’s give him a crack.
Flutey is our only inside centre, Hape has played well at times for Bath, but at outside centre. Tindall doesn’t have the hands and it would be a lot of pressure to put on Manu having not played inside centre. We have tried Wilkinson and Flood at inside centre and it has always failed unfortunately.
Tuilagi is best used at outside centre and was the only centre that has made an impact against Wales.
We know what Ashton can do especially when he links up with Foden.

I like this

actually cueto might even make a decent centre. I don't know why johnson hasn't brought someone like twelvetrees in. I've been quite impressed when i've seen him and international exposure will only make him better.

Greyghost
good one. I was thinking the same thing about gatland until these last two games

Presumably he kept trying to go around things, rather than run directly into them at the training camp and was discarded for being too diverse.

Probabley more to do with some questionable defending in the Baabaas game which has been seen again in training.

actually cueto might even make a decent centre. I don't know why johnson hasn't brought someone like twelvetrees in.

Cueto doesn't run great lines off of the wing, he wouldn't make it at centre. Billy will be a great player sooner rather than later but he isn't international standard at the minute.

well he can't be much worse than what you have at the moment. I think if he's talented throw him in. at least get him with the squad

mckay1402 wrote:well he can't be much worse than what you have at the moment. I think if he's talented throw him in. at least get him with the squad

With the squad maybe, but there are better 12s around. Definitely don't throw him into the international level straight away, that set both Allen and Tait back by years! Looks like Allen is now ready for another shot, but anyway, all this is for after the world cup as MJ hasn't selected these players in the squad and so there is no chance of them playing without a food poisoning/injury causing one of our rubbish 12s to go home.

I think Scotland will be looking forward to playing England. If there is one thing Scotland can do it's defend for 90 minutes and score 3 more points than their opposition. They've beaten both Australia and South Africa like that recently and they are both a far more threatening prospect than England.

Having said that if they can't score tries either I wouldn't bet against it being the tightest and most boring match of the world cup.

Definitely don't throw him into the international level straight away, that set both Allen and Tait back by years!

Can't see Billy the 6ft 16st centre being rag dolled ala Tait though. Allen wasn't set back years he was just ignored because he was unlucky enough to try an expansive move in the Robinson era (much frowned upon) which unfortunatley got intercepted by a quite well known player (Dan Carter). Allen still played good attacking rugby at Gloucester though his defence was pretty dodgey until his move to Tigers.

9. Youngs
10. Flood
11. Cueto
12. Tuilagi
13. Tindall
14. Ashton
15. Foden

Johnson seems keen on the Youngs and Flood combo, despite Tigers not winning the AP they are a proven force for Tigers aswell as England think he should stick with them, but Care and Wilkinson are definitely pushing hard.

You left a wing place out but I can only see one man for that and that's Cueto, still very dangerous at times and very experienced he has world cup pedigree.

While I would play Tuilagi, the fiery character who bulldozes his way through defences with Tindall partnering him a cool head and an experienced one to show Manu the ropes really. Hape with Tuilagi could be risky, and I doubt Flood will ever play 12.

mckay1402 wrote:I think Scotland will be looking forward to playing England. If there is one thing Scotland can do it's defend for 90 minutes and score 3 more points than their opposition. They've beaten both Australia and South Africa like that recently and they are both a far more threatening prospect than England.

Having said that if they can't score tries either I wouldn't bet against it being the tightest and most boring match of the world cup.

I'd happily take the win tho, mckay!!

O god me too. it would make up for 91...

Danny Care,has injured his toe .needs an operation and wil be out of the RWC.

yappysnap wrote:My only problem with Flood at 12 is threefold.

1. When he played there last he did nothing but kick any ball he got.

2. He has shown that he struggles to play his attacking game with the opposition on top of him and space closed down. At 12 for this England team he's going to have even less time and space to work in so I think he'll resort to problem 1.

3. He is neither a physical player, nore does he have a good step, so the opposition will know that he is going to either pass or kick. Not such a problem in itself as he passes well, but that's exactly the same as Wilko, so that's two guys next to each other, neither of which offer much of a threat to defences themselves. Manu/Tindall can expect gang tackles all game long.

This. People keep saying that wilkinson and flood played together at Newcastle and ignoring the fact that Newcastle were appalling at the time.

Tomathy
In (slight) defence of Wilkinson and Flood, they were:
1 - playing behind the Newcastle Falcons pack
2 - frequently offered the dynamic running and intelligent rugby of Jamie Noon on their outside.

I don't see Johnson picking either of his two quality fly halfs at 12 - neither have played there for years and there are doubts about the ability of both in that position. Best thing for us all to do is hope for someone to accidentally leave a roller skate at the top of the stairs as Hape is going down to training - any of Allen, Barritt, Turner-Hall or 36 would be an improvement to the two 12s we currently have in the squad.

dummy_half wrote:Tomathy
In (slight) defence of Wilkinson and Flood, they were:
1 - playing behind the Newcastle Falcons pack
2 - frequently offered the dynamic running and intelligent rugby of Jamie Noon on their outside.

I don't see Johnson picking either of his two quality fly halfs at 12 - neither have played there for years and there are doubts about the ability of both in that position. Best thing for us all to do is hope for someone to accidentally leave a roller skate at the top of the stairs as Hape is going down to training - any of Allen, Barritt, Turner-Hall or 36 would be an improvement to the two 12s we currently have in the squad.

when Flutey got injured just before the Wales game last year they put Flood in at 10 (ahead of Hape and Hipkiss), so we know Johnson considers it an option. Flood played at 12 a lot in the early days of MJ's reign. The Newcastle pack wasn't so bad either - Hayman and Dowson being two of the players who were there at the time.

Problem for Turner-Hall is that realistically he wont be playing in the same side as Tuilagi, and Tuilagi is rightfully well ahead of him at this point. Twelvetrees is unproven but I agree could be very good. Allen and Barritt are touted a lot, and could be good for England, but for whatever reason Johnson just doesn't seem to think they've got what it takes. Twelvetrees position ahead of Allen for the Saxons, despite their status at Leicester, somewhat bears this out.

From a Scotland point of view I hope he sticks with Hape. Not sure I even remember seeing him with the ball on Saturday.

dummy_half wrote:Tomathy
In (slight) defence of Wilkinson and Flood, they were:
1 - playing behind the Newcastle Falcons pack
2 - frequently offered the dynamic running and intelligent rugby of Jamie Noon on their outside.

I don't see Johnson picking either of his two quality fly halfs at 12 - neither have played there for years and there are doubts about the ability of both in that position. Best thing for us all to do is hope for someone to accidentally leave a roller skate at the top of the stairs as Hape is going down to training - any of Allen, Barritt, Turner-Hall or 36 would be an improvement to the two 12s we currently have in the squad.

What happened to Trinder the Glos centre who played against the Barbarians? I thought he went well.

yappysnap wrote:

dummy_half wrote:Tomathy
In (slight) defence of Wilkinson and Flood, they were:
1 - playing behind the Newcastle Falcons pack
2 - frequently offered the dynamic running and intelligent rugby of Jamie Noon on their outside.

I don't see Johnson picking either of his two quality fly halfs at 12 - neither have played there for years and there are doubts about the ability of both in that position. Best thing for us all to do is hope for someone to accidentally leave a roller skate at the top of the stairs as Hape is going down to training - any of Allen, Barritt, Turner-Hall or 36 would be an improvement to the two 12s we currently have in the squad.

What happened to Trinder the Glos centre who played against the Barbarians? I thought he went well.

The barbarians squad was basically the Churchill Cup Saxons squad + Banahan at 12 to test him out. Don't think Trinder was ever in serious contention for the training squad, but he could be in the future.

mckay1402 wrote:From a Scotland point of view I hope he sticks with Hape. Not sure I even remember seeing him with the ball on Saturday.

Hape was the one throwing it forward when ever he got tackled, especially when it looked like we may be in a good attacking position.

He is now part of an elite club (with Matthew Tait) in that his biggest claim to fame is being tackled by Henson.

tomathy wrote:

yappysnap wrote:

dummy_half wrote:Tomathy
In (slight) defence of Wilkinson and Flood, they were:
1 - playing behind the Newcastle Falcons pack
2 - frequently offered the dynamic running and intelligent rugby of Jamie Noon on their outside.

I don't see Johnson picking either of his two quality fly halfs at 12 - neither have played there for years and there are doubts about the ability of both in that position. Best thing for us all to do is hope for someone to accidentally leave a roller skate at the top of the stairs as Hape is going down to training - any of Allen, Barritt, Turner-Hall or 36 would be an improvement to the two 12s we currently have in the squad.

What happened to Trinder the Glos centre who played against the Barbarians? I thought he went well.

The barbarians squad was basically the Churchill Cup Saxons squad + Banahan at 12 to test him out. Don't think Trinder was ever in serious contention for the training squad, but he could be in the future.

That's what i thought.

Every time I look at the options of Banahan, Cueto and Hape I get a little more depressed. Where's the rollerskate?!!!

He is now part of an elite club (with Matthew Tait) in that his biggest claim to fame is being tackled by Henson..

That's only until Tait gets the Tigers treatment and emerges with some silverware and as next seasons top try scorer.

Can we start a collection for the 606v2 rollerskate? We can then donate it to any national coach who finds that he's selected the WRONG PLAYERS!!!!!

Flood can't tackle.

If I was Martin Johnson…..

We wouldn't be in the position where we have such an uncreative midfield and only a very outside chance of doing well in the World Cup.


Sadly, it is far too late for Johnno to change the gameplan or the personel in time for this World Cup. Some of the issues that he has within the team are not things that he could have done anything about, as up until recently the quality was not there. The main issue is that midfield, and it is one that he appears to have done little to address, instead heaping all of his eggs into the Hape/Tindall basket.

Questions.

Why didn't he have a look at Delon Armitage at 13 as an option?
Allen, Barritt, JTH and Twelvetrees all could have been looked at in the autumn in the 12 shirt but weren't. Why?
Trinder performed well both in the BaaBaa's game and for the Saxons in the 13 shirt. Why didn't he then take him into the training squad to have a close look at?

There have been some poor decisions in this area, and if it all goes wrong in New Zealand then Johnson needs to be held accountable by the RFU and serious consideration given as to whether he ought to remain in post.

Pete when does his contract end anyway ?

Not 100% sure Cymroglan, but I think he has a contract until at least 2013.

15 Armitage
14 Ashton
13 Banahman
12 Flood
11 Foden
10 Wilkinson
9 Care

Don't recall ever seeing Foden play on the wing before, not convinced it would be a great idea to try it at international level.

Im sure Foden has appeared on the wing for England as a replacement. The way England play thers not a great deal of difference between the 11 and 15 anyway (byond them only getting th ball when its kiked at thenm y the opposition), so if you were looking to replace Cueto he or Armitage (which to my mind would make sense) isnt a ridiculous proposition. Id certainly expect Armitage be be ahead of Sharples in Johnsons thinking no matter what individual internerds think.


As for flyhalf, let us not forget the tackling genius of Englands great blonde elder statesman, arguably the biggest hitting 10 out there
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJ5tjJoO4fw&NR=1

LDCPete wrote:
Why didn't he have a look at Delon Armitage at 13 as an option?
Allen, Barritt, JTH and Twelvetrees all could have been looked at in the autumn in the 12 shirt but weren't. Why?
Trinder performed well both in the BaaBaa's game and for the Saxons in the 13 shirt. Why didn't he then take him into the training squad to have a close look at?

Because he only had two warmup games to assess his options?
He didnt look at Armitage at 13 because Armitage was being slected as a fullback. If he had played Armitage at 13 that wouldve meant no chance for Tuilagi, who at least is a regular center. He already has two other senior options at 13, banahan and tindall (whos short of gametime, it would have been daft not to give him on of these games as a starter), at some point you have to not only look at new players but actualy decide whos in your team and stick to it. It generaly helps if your world cup sqaud at least know each others names, then you have some chance of getting atam rathr than a Barabrians scratch side.
We could just as easily be in a position where we are saying " why did he play all these premiership makeweights instead of the senior team hes been building togther for the past 4 years and who just went through the best 12 months of results since 2003". Had he not oplayed the people he actualy intends to take on the plane then whats the point in having the games at all.
Most people raised an eyebrow at Armitage even being in the training squad, to have expected him to come back and shift position is a bit bizzare and would have been far more questionable than giving a chance to Tuilagi and gametime to Tindall alongside the first choice backline. Lets nnot forget that only a few months ago those guys were ripping apart Australia.
For the third test its a bit late to be playing with wildcards, the squad needs to be namd before then. So now its a case of trying out options within the core players who are going to the world cup. I hop Tuilagi gets another go even though I have reservations about him.

Who exactly is left at the rfu to question his decsions anyway?

I was talking about previously seabiscuit. He could have looked at Delon at 13 in the autumn, instead he had him on the bench and gave him a couple of walk ons in the last 10 minutes or so out on the wing.