The Thug list.

First topic message reminder :

Seeing that the world cup is about to begin and I would much rather discuss rugby than harp on about foul play incidents that occured in the heat of the battle, i thought it would be prudent set up an article specifically for this purpose.

So it would be good if anyone that has a rant about any specific player, and after many years of therapy has not been able to get over it, you can place your rant and hatred for such a player on here.

This would hopefully keep the board clean for proper rugby debate.

See this as your RECYCLE BIN, perhaps you will get over yourself and the incident in question.

So what i'll do is to start things off.

Bakkies Botha,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-DQ29ycLkU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7CM-_JlG64&NR=1

Schalk Burger,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9KuQVvmoqc

Matt Giteau,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoh9NpWBAZc&feature=related

Sergio Parisse,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_MUIFrwWXQ&feature=related

Matt Banahan
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNv_33Q1eco&feature=related

Brad Thorn
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZchPz1xQII

I am sure there are many others, so put them on here, let everyone rant as much as they want.

... but notice no aussies, cause we're all nice players... ( cept Harrison )

Hartley, apparently never banned even for performing a WWF style elbow slam on the prone Richie McCaw. Headbutting, punching, ...

And people say the RFU aren't a neo-colonial throw back with an grievance to finance...

OzT what about Craig Gower?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Craig_Gower

Not strictly a thug but plenty of contraversy.

Doesn't he play for Italy?? And an ex league man.... so not a saintly Wallaby..

LOL!


All our thugs plays leaque!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5XgSYdYgGc

Troncon - the Italian SH who's now their Assistant Coach - remember the belt he gave Stringer years ago. In fairness to Troncon, this was just a punch, a good one though, and no doubt Strings was being his waspish little self. Defo not in the gouging or stamping category

Mark Jones - Ask Mike Teague? I don't think Mike ever retrieved a restart after that match

biltongbek wrote:25 March Lawrence Daglallio cited for punching an opponent.

22 Feb 2002, Martin johnson banned for 3 weeks for punching

28 Dec 2000, Martin Johnson banned for 35 days for three counts of foul play, kneeing, punching, stamping

10 Sept 2007, Phil vickery Banned for 2 matches for kicking.

13 Feb 2009, Martin Corry found guilty of unintentional contact with the eye, 6 weeks ban

19 April 2005, Martin corry banned for three weeks for elbow to the face of Richard Hill.

You see how easy it is to find examples of thuggery these days.

You just pick a rugby players name, add banned to google search and bob's your uncle, all the thuggery you could feed off.

Fully agreed Billtong.

Look no further than England/S.Africa to find plenty!

Kevin Mealamu? (pronounced "Me'll-harm-u")

Martin Johnson punching Doddie Wier in the face. Excellent slo mo viewing.

Are you sure you actually saw that Bathmad? or are you agreeing despite not having seen it again?

As much as i do think Botha is a thug i've never seen what he did so wrong in the Adam Jones incident. The ball was in the ruck, he entered from the gate and was clearing out a player. If Jones wasn't in such a strong position then he would have gone flying, unfortunately when 20 stone flies into 20 stone and neither moves the energy has to go somewhere and in this instance it dissapated through his shoulder joint.

scoi wrote:As much as i do think Botha is a thug i've never seen what he did so wrong in the Adam Jones incident. The ball was in the ruck, he entered from the gate and was clearing out a player. If Jones wasn't in such a strong position then he would have gone flying, unfortunately when 20 stone flies into 20 stone and neither moves the energy has to go somewhere and in this instance it dissapated through his shoulder joint.

+1

of all the reasons to hate bakkies, that one i never got.

although the "J4B" armbands made me hate everyone.

Thing about cooper is hes always trying to tackle around the neck.
Cant recall the player but andy daltons world cup in 87 was ended by a cowardly smash from behind which broke his jaw on the cavaliers tour.
Another haden copout when it was his action the guy was retaliating from.
Bakkies to me is the worst.
Never seen anyone who deliberately sets out to maim smaller players so often.
Expect him to 'get excited' this cup.

For SA I just believe their negative style over the decades just breeds and attracts negative players.

I think here theyre seen as the german football team of rugby.
Efficient, ruthless, lacking in style or personality (except for pdv of course), not liked but always respected.

Sorry biltong but i think you'll find thats generally true.

Im sure there will be new names to be added to this list as i reckon this world cup is going to be about big hits and punishing defences.

A bloke called David headbutted me in the eye last year. That wasn't too nice.

I certainly hope we don't see a bunch of yellow cards issued for "dangerous play" which are simply very good, very hard tackles.

The pacific island teams, in particularly Samoa seem to get pinged unfairly by some of the NH refs for putting in solid legal tackles.

If they use their arms there should be no problem.

Ghost, I concede the fact that we have a player of Bakkies Botha's ilk that puts the focus squarely on us when referees officiate matches we are involved in.

The problem is I have seen Brad Thorn dump John smit in front of the referee, which should automatically be a yellow card, but thorn walks off with a warning.

Jaque fourie Last year did a tip tackle and immediately got his marching orders.

The problem I have is the same as you guys when everyone says McCaw cheats, referees can't wait to pull out the card.

My whole point is we have hard men that overstep the boundary yes, but if you take the focus off us for a second, every other country is as guilty as us, they just don't get as much attention.

biltongbek wrote:25 March Lawrence Daglallio cited for punching an opponent.

22 Feb 2002, Martin johnson banned for 3 weeks for punching

28 Dec 2000, Martin Johnson banned for 35 days for three counts of foul play, kneeing, punching, stamping

10 Sept 2007, Phil vickery Banned for 2 matches for kicking.

13 Feb 2009, Martin Corry found guilty of unintentional contact with the eye, 6 weeks ban

19 April 2005, Martin corry banned for three weeks for elbow to the face of Richard Hill.

You see how easy it is to find examples of thuggery these days.

You just pick a rugby players name, add banned to google search and bob's your uncle, all the thuggery you could feed off.

Hi Biltong, wasnt Vickery's ban in 2007 for tripping rather than kicking or does it count as one and the same in disciplinary terms? Not that it makes any difference the ban was fully deserved.

Bakkies Botha and danny Grewcock are pretty much the same player when it comes to their behaviour on the pitch.

Mealamu seems to get away with it repeatedly. Head butting someone is pretty bad but to do it to someone who is lying prone and face down is pure thuggery

Do I need to remind you that the Mealamu incident was clean out of Moody, who was persistently lying deliberately in illegal positions, and frequently hanging on to the ball unpenalised throughout the game.

Kev had clearly become frustrated with him and was just doing a power-removal. It's very clear that he slipped in the process and that the head butt was just an accidental meeting of heads.

The supposed malice in the situation is only a consequence of the very close cropped single angle that the British media chose to replay over and over and over.

The wider angle makes it very clear that this was a clean out gone-wrong.

Quite unlike the Hartley incident later in the game, where McCaw was targeted for a flying elbow despite being in a legal position.

Why on earth Hartley escaped with nothing is an outrage. And people say the RFU isn't a neo-colonial organisation with a grievance to finance...

damngoodovalball, mate there are many players getting away with things, but because we as south africans are probably most guilty of it, we don't point fingers and harp on about it after matches.

On this thread specifically there was a poster looking for Sa players committing foul play, and when he had a few he said "ah, there is a SA trend here," so this was merely to prove a point to him.

But as I say, there are high profile teams that have players get away with things springboks will never get away with.

TheGreyGhost wrote:

The supposed malice in the situation is only a consequence of the very close cropped single angle that the British media chose to replay over and over and over.

The wider angle makes it very clear that this was a clean out gone-wrong.

Hmmm, reminds me of a certain test in June of 2009 vs the Lions, not a head butt, but an accident.

biltong mate, methinks you should stop defending some of these posts. Been watching you valiantly fighting your corner, but unfortunately Google is too big a search engine to defend every case people want to look up.

Sure boks have dirty players, as do wallabies/all blacks/outer mongolia/little shripmton's lower fifths et el et el... but I think we shoudl all shake hands and say thugs are and will be a part of the game. After all, it does encourage close to the border play!

My 2c worth

Yeah for me bakkies has ruined it for others.
Gh or Nz simply wouldnt have him in the side.
Many calls may seem unfair but bakkies is downright evil.
And SA continue to put him on the field.
Its saying to the world we condone this behaviour. We don't care what you think.
Youll generally find thornes faux pas are usually at the end of some heated incident where he retaliates. No excuse but it is normally because of the heat of the situation.
But most of bakkies are created and initialised purely out of nothing. He comes from nowhere and deliberately sets out to injure. With no provocation. He coldly instigates things where neither he nor his team have been provoked in any way shape or form.
With him theres a difference.

OzT wrote:biltong mate, methinks you should stop defending some of these posts. Been watching you valiantly fighting your corner, but unfortunately Google is too big a search engine to defend every case people want to look up.

Sure boks have dirty players, as do wallabies/all blacks/outer mongolia/little shripmton's lower fifths et el et el... but I think we shoudl all shake hands and say thugs are and will be a part of the game. After all, it does encourage close to the border play!

My 2c worth

OzT, I am not defending thuggery from SA players, I am showing that every country has thugs, some just get away with it.

biltongbek wrote:damngoodovalball, mate there are many players getting away with things, but because we as south africans are probably most guilty of it, we don't point fingers and harp on about it after matches.

On this thread specifically there was a poster looking for Sa players committing foul play, and when he had a few he said "ah, there is a SA trend here," so this was merely to prove a point to him.

But as I say, there are high profile teams that have players get away with things springboks will never get away with.

Yeah, I got that Biltong, fair does. Agreed, all players especially forwards chuck out the odd punch, thats rugby. I also agree that, because of previous incidents like that SA game at Twickenham in (I think) 2003 where it properly kicked off, SA get more attention from Refs and the media alike and dont get away with it as much as other teams. Bakkies on Jones is a good example of it.

Mealamu has been involved in two of the most shameful on pitch incidents in international rugby in recent years, his victims BOD and Moody have stayed pretty quiet about it. Kev's reaction? I believe in god, I have a family so I cant be a dirty player. Unreal!

Bloodgate was pretty shameful and Dean Richards rightfully got a ban for it. The difference is, he didnt set out to injure anyone.

Oh agree with you, what I was trying to say as well. Just at the mo seems SA is the punch bag of flavour.

Have a good evening all, I am off to grab a drink then to a leaving bash later, catch al tomorrow!

Gavin Henson launching Scarlet scum!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PnkTwVQxaw4&NR=1

Lee Bryne on Geoff Cross
Martyn Williams on Simon Webster
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32LJBXOPB_A&feature=related

Lee Bryne on Hugo Southwell
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ykz0FsfPYvU&feature=related

Lee Bryne on Phil Gordman (7:44 seconds)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a69xhRa6Gro

Paul Thorburn on unknown Scottish player*
He kicks a world record distance penalty and the ball still whacks a scottish player in the nuts.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTtTbcfwCMA

Bloody Welsh bullying the poor Scottish players!


John Hopoate
Ok so Fijians have Flair, Samoans have tackling... and Tongans have fingers up the shítter!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=RaZXg3tw3ac

AlynDavies wrote:
Paul Thorburn on unknown Scottish player*
He kicks a world record distance penalty and the ball still whacks a scottish player in the nuts.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTtTbcfwCMA

Bloody Welsh bullying the poor Scottish players!

CLASSIC!!!

lol

OzT wrote:Oh agree with you, what I was trying to say as well. Just at the mo seems SA is the punch bag of flavour.

Have a good evening all, I am off to grab a drink then to a leaving bash later, catch al tomorrow!

They can punch as much as they want, OzT, I can handle it.

yappysnap wrote:A bloke called David headbutted me in the eye last year. That wasn't too nice.

Wasn't me ..... dont play in that area

What about the most shown cheepshot, Johnathan Humphries on Matt Dawson.
Humphries flying through the air fist raised and goes in on Dawsons back after he's scored

Why the most shown......it was on the opening credits of Question of Sport for years

My favorite of all time Was Garin Jenkins Vs the Scottish pack in 1994.
Scotland's pack came to show Wales they meant business, one of them (Derek Turnbull) was stupid enough to annoy Jenkins...
3 Scottish players were in a pile on the floor with Jenkins beating the hell into them.

Two that stand out are:

Richard Loe for his cowardly elbow to the face of Paul Carozza after Carozza had scored a try and;

Colin Meads. Destroyed Ken Catchpoles career when he grabbed and wrenched Catchpole's leg while he was pinned under other players in a ruck, tearing his hamstring off the bone, and severely rupturing his groin muscles. Struggle to think of a more cowardly act. He makes Quade Cooper look like a saint.

Brad Thorn - when he does something dirty - he's Australian

RubyGuby wrote:Mark Jones - Ask Mike Teague? I don't think Mike ever retrieved a restart after that match

I played junior rugby with Mark Jones at RTBs and I must admit he was the biggest thug around, not much else to his game depsite winning caps in league and union.

TheGreyGhost wrote:I certainly hope we don't see a bunch of yellow cards issued for "dangerous play" which are simply very good, very hard tackles.

The pacific island teams, in particularly Samoa seem to get pinged unfairly by some of the NH refs for putting in solid legal tackles.

I certainly hope that we dont see a bunch of yellow cards for "dangerous play" which should have been straight red cards.

RTB, that brought a nice memory to me

Going back a bit further, the raking of JPR by Ashworth has got to be up there.

I remember the Kobus Wiese punch on poor old Derwyn Jones. The history was that, for the first time in years, Wales had been competitive with SA in Cardiff a number of months previously, largely because Derwyn had provided a supply of lineout ball. I think it was one of the cheapest shots I've ever seen, and I suspect it was motivated by wanting to take Jones out of the game. I think you'd have to be a real scumbag to hit someone like that from behind.

RubyGuby wrote:RTB, that brought a nice memory to me

RG,

Many a happy season there before joining the mob and moving away.

On another topic I always remember the punch by French 2nd row whose name escapes me on Ricky Evans.

Was delivered witrh such ferocity to an unexpetced and protected Evnas that he was knocked backwards at a ruck and broke his leg.

Olivier Merle, what an absolute beast!! wouldnt want to meet him on a dark night.

Not sure if he's been mentioned before but how about Wade Dooley? Pretty sure I remember he perforated Doddie Weir's ear drum with an off-the-ball elbow in the first few minutes of one match and flattened Phil Davies, breaking his cheek bone(s) in three places in the '87 5 Nations.....amongst other incidents.

The funniest thing is he was a) a copper and b) got co-opted by the RFU to be a citing officer . Nasty piece of work on the field.

Merle, thats the man, also who was it that ruined Weirs Lions tour in the first game by doing his knee in.

Jim Mills was another reknowned for performing his own version of Michael Flatleys Riverdance on players heads

damngoodOvalball wrote:Mealamu has been involved in two of the most shameful on pitch incidents in international rugby in recent years.

What a load of nonsense. This is entirely your opinion and not substantiated by anything other than your desire to paint KM in this light. Both of incidents you're referencing were fully played out in the judiciary and a satisfactory resolution was found in both cases that exonerated the character of Mealamu.

You should be ashamed of yourself for spinning this cynical nonsense.

The Greyghost do you think Umaga and Mealamu's spear tackle was legal?

Only an one eyed Kiwi would defend such a despicable act.

Was the headbutt by Mealamu ok because Moody is English?

What makes a Thug? What does a player have to do? Can a player be a thug after a single incident or does there have to be a track record?

Someone said Hayes is a thug for the incident with Healy. It was a terrible incident and he rightly got red carded and banned. But does that mean for his entire career he is a thug?

TheGreyGhost

You are mistaken over the KM incident in the lions tour... yes he was cleared by the judicary but only when the full picture was not known.

6 months later when more evidence came about the IRB put in practice to not only outlaw spear tackles but also to condemn the act... saying that it was too late to ban someone for an incident which occurred 6 months prior and one which had already gone to a citing panel and been cleared.

Whether or not it was meant was not the point. Both would have had hefty bans and should have been sent off.

You have to take off those fern tinted glasses... which in reality have been bolted to your eyes with the world's strongest adhesive. At least have the humility to able to see something for what it really is.

Personally I don't think he is a bad guy or a "thug" but you wouldn't exactly see JW, Carter or Michelak doing the same now do we... he's certainly no angel.

fa0019 wrote:TheGreyGhost

You are mistaken over the KM incident in the lions tour... yes he was cleared by the judicary but only when the full picture was not known.

6 months later when more evidence came about the IRB put in practice to not only outlaw spear tackles but also to condemn the act... saying that it was too late to ban someone for an incident which occurred 6 months prior and one which had already gone to a citing panel and been cleared.

Whether or not it was meant was not the point. Both would have had hefty bans and should have been sent off.

You have to take off those fern tinted glasses... which in reality have been bolted to your eyes with the world's strongest adhesive. At least have the humility to able to see something for what it really is.

Personally I don't think he is a bad guy or a "thug" but you wouldn't exactly see JW, Carter or Michelak doing the same now do we... he's certainly no angel.

You can't apply laws retrospectively. You are right that the IRB adopted a specific interpretation of dangerous play that covered what we colloquially refer to as a "spear tackle". However you can't make a new law (which is in effect what it was), and then go back through history and prosecute people under it. Our collective definition of ethics prohibits that.

The BOD incident was very unfortunate, but clearly there was no malice there it was just two guys executing a rigorous clean out in the fired up opening moments of a test. Neither Mealamu nor Umaga are thugs, but they are tough competitors. In this event it was accidental dangerous play, but it wasn't thuggery or an intent to injure BOD. In fact Umaga won a fair play award in the same year (or perhaps the year before) for his actions in ensuring Colin Charvis was ok rather than following play after Jerry Collins bent him in half.

You will recall that there were also two "spear tackles" perpetrated by Lions players in the Maori test and second test, which went unpunished too. So you can see there was consistency in the rulings here. Unlike the England test were KM was rather hard done by copping a two game ban for accidentally making contact with his head during a clean out, and yet Dylan Hartley escaped with nothing after a clear and deliberate elbow into the head of Richie McCaw. Hartley is clearly the thug, and any attempts to deflect his thuggery onto KM, who is a decent Christian and would never deliberately set out to injure someone illegally, is just utter, utter nonsense, plain and simple.

Hartley cant help where he comes from

we all know kevin mealamu had spotted a rare and dangerous spider on the back of lewis moody's head and with no hands free (entertaining the clear out) he bravely decided to protect moody by throwing his face at the spider.

unfortunately, his head the came into contact with moody's and was thus deemed a headbutt.

pesky spider of satan.

I think the BOD thing was a reckless clean out and had no malice in it. It's what happened afterwards that made it seem worse in everyone's eyes-all parties could have handled it better.