Wigglesworth to start against Argentina!

Telegraph reporting Wigglesworth will be starting despite Youngs being 'sharp' in training. I think Wigglesworth had a solid if not spectacular game against Ireland and it may be the sensible option to bring Youngs on later in the game.

However, I still feel that Simpson hasn't been given a chance - even if he is brought on against the lesser teams in the group and carves them up (as he does!) I feel will still be third in the pecking order.

If Joe played for Sarries, who had a successful season last year, would he have been first/second choice?

I fancy he would - Your thoughts?

Agreed - i think Wigglesworth was solid against Ireland and did what was required of him. His passing and box kicking was impressive, but it appears he poses little threat in terms of breaks. Youngs does need some game time, so if fit I think he should at least get 15-20 minutes against argentina -though I also agree that simpson needs and deserves his opportunity. Assuming Youngs shos some form he will be first choice and it would then seem that simpson on the bench would offer the greatest impact if england needed some spark.

We're not allowed to use the term Argies, some people take offence.

Sorry mate.

ok

Good (about Wigglesworth). I don't see Simpson having myuch more to his game than making breaks. Youngs has a better all round game AND makes the breaks. Wigglesworth offers something different and if used correctly is a very good player. You just need to use the forwards to make the breaks around the fringes of rucks.

BigTrev, I think he's being a bit sarcastic although someone (non-Argentinos) did say that it was offensive.

HammerofThunor wrote:Good (about Wigglesworth). I don't see Simpson having myuch more to his game than making breaks. Youngs has a better all round game AND makes the breaks. Wigglesworth offers something different and if used correctly is a very good player. You just need to use the forwards to make the breaks around the fringes of rucks.

BigTrev, I think he's being a bit sarcastic although someone (non-Argentinos) did say that it was offensive.

I just think Simmo hasn't been given a chance at all & as a Wasps supporter I have to take issue with him only making breaks. Simmo does a lot more than that but is probably the best we have at making breaks.
Wigglesworth offers something different because he DOESN'T have the turn of pace that Youngs,Care & Simmo have.

HammerofThunor wrote:Good (about Wigglesworth). I don't see Simpson having myuch more to his game than making breaks. Youngs has a better all round game AND makes the breaks. Wigglesworth offers something different and if used correctly is a very good player. You just need to use the forwards to make the breaks around the fringes of rucks.

BigTrev, I think he's being a bit sarcastic although someone (non-Argentinos) did say that it was offensive.

For what its worth, no they didn't. I said (and talking from personal experience) that SOME Argentinian's that I have 'worked' with, found the term offensive. All clear? Okay?

It's a vote for solidity rather than flair, really.

To be honest, I think Wrigglesworth is lucky to be there - at least Simpson looks likely to start the English backline moving.

Wigglesworth is not a bad option for this match. He's a more considered player than Youngs, Care or Simpson, but he's solid enough and generally makes tactically sound decisions.

In the opening match, England must settle down and get a win, as it's potentially a huge banana skin. Youngs isn't perhaps quite match fit and would be a good impact sub and why risk Simpson's inexperience at international level by capping him in such an important match? Simpson could play a part against Romania and Georgia and provide injury cover later on. But the match against Argentina isn't the place to start him.

I'm not a massive fan of Wigglesworth, but he IS the sensible starting option in the opener.

Put simply Simpson is not as good as Youngs, Care or Wigglesworth, hence his position in the pecking order.

The two areas of his game that he is lacking in at times is his distribution and his game management, which are essential for a 9.

I read an article recently by Mike Friday which stated that his actual passing is excellent, and the reason for his sometimes slow and erratic distribution is the position that he gets his feet into when arriving at the back of a ruck. Friday stated that it didn't enable him to get his hands on the ball and get it away in one movement as he did not have a solid base.

Since reading the article, Simpson has not played so I've not been able to have a close look, but I think it is fair to say that Young and Wigglesworth have no such problem, hence they will start ahead of him.

LDCPete wrote:Put simply Simpson is not as good as Youngs, Care or Wigglesworth, hence his position in the pecking order.

The two areas of his game that he is lacking in at times is his distribution and his game management, which are essential for a 9.

I read an article recently by Mike Friday which stated that his actual passing is excellent, and the reason for his sometimes slow and erratic distribution is the position that he gets his feet into when arriving at the back of a ruck. Friday stated that it didn't enable him to get his hands on the ball and get it away in one movement as he did not have a solid base.

Since reading the article, Simpson has not played so I've not been able to have a close look, but I think it is fair to say that Young and Wigglesworth have no such problem, hence they will start ahead of him.

I think the lack of solid base was more to do with a retreating pack at Wasps & my point is that he his distribution was still good despite this. If he had a pack on the front foot he would be devastating.
I would at least have liked him to have had a run out as a sub prior to the WC.

BigTrev

I agree that he should have had a run out prior to the tournament, should have got at least 20 minutes off the bench against Ireland.

I have to say that I think you are looking at him with Wasps tinted specs on mate if you are using a retreating pack as an excuse for what at times is shocking service from Simpson. He has some real positives to his game, which is great, but the distribution is an issue, and one that he is apparently working on with Friday, so clearly it's an issue that he recognises is there.

Simpson IMO is arguably the best SH out there - If he is brought into the fray he will not let England down in spite of a lack of international game time. He is far more solid and creative than Wiggle who is probably there due to the Irish result. Youngs has been out of form for quite a while. Simpson may well return as England first choice 9.

Telegraph reporting there will be just 2 changes from the team that faced Ireland. Easter in for Fourie with Haskell moving to openside and Cueto is out injured with Armitage starting left wing and Banahan moving up to the bench. Telegraph are usually pretty accurate.

Thoughts?

Wigglesworth is the logical choice for this match for the reasons LDCPete said.

If Youngs was in form and had match practice under his belt he would start instead though.

Simpson should be given gametime against either Georgia or Romania though.

Christ almighty, that's twice you've agreed with me in a week.

beshocked wrote:Wigglesworth is the logical choice for this match for the reasons LDCPete said.

If Youngs was in form and had match practice under his belt he would start instead though.

Simpson should be given gametime against either Georgia or Romania though.

+1

What do you think of the possible starting 15 beshocked? If Telegraph is accurate it would be

1. Sheridan
2. Thompson
3. Cole
4. Deacon
5. Lawes
6. Croft
7. Haskell
8. Easter
9. Wigglesworth
10. Wilkinson
11. Armitage
12. Tindall
13. Tuilagi
14. Ashton
15. Foden

Bench (I think)

16. Hartley
17. Stevens
18. Palmer
19. Wood?
20. Youngs/Simpson
21. Flood
22. Banahan

EDIT Woods to Wood and Hartley on bench

Starting 15 looks likely but I believe Palmer may start over Deacon. Youngs if fit will be on the bench, but if he's not fully recovered it will be Simpson.

Deacon showed up well in the friendlies though and is very good at the set piece and in the tight where Argentina are strongest so he may get the nod there for tactical reasons.

19. Woods?

Tom Wood is the only other backrow option with Moody out injured. BTW it is Tom Wood with England who plays for Saints and Ben Woods who is playing for Tigers.

Thegreatwhite I presume you mean me.

When you are not bickering with me (you haven't in a while admittedly) or Greyghost you are an intelligent poster so it isn't a surprise.


Hammerofthunor you have Thompson down twice. Who do they think will start? Either pick would be fine.

Looks a pretty good team. Still unsure about what the backrow balance should be though personally.

Happy with the backline though.

I still feel Haskell needs to nail down a spot in the backrow and make it his own or he will continue to be a utility player.

Well Wiggers is a solid 9. With quick service for Johnny to control the game as he does so well.

To be honest...i'd be inclined to start with the back row
6 Croft
7 Wood
8 Haskell

Its has performed well, and has pace, power and lineout ability.

Hurrah, more slow service from back of rucks.....

Time warp back to 2007 for one please...oh look Richards is still playing SH for England.

You just have to accept that Wigglesworth offers a different type of service from the base of a ruck than Youngs or even simpson. All this navel gazing is silly. Risking an untried Simpson in this opening match could be suicidal, Care is back at home and Youngs isn't fully match fit. So tell us all, who would be your choice and why?

I've editted the original now.

Beshocked, it was supposed to be Hartley on the bench. Not my team, it would the starting 15 if the Telegraph are right.

Geordie, I'd also be tempted to go for Croft, Wood and Haskell in the backrow. But I don't mind Easter.

It will be Palmer and Lawes in the 2nd row and not Deacon

Hammer,

Im a big fan of Easter and have defended him for years on the original 606. I just think (and i've never been a massive Haskell fan) Haskell has been playing exceptionally well and does offer a more dynamic approach to the game.
His stint in France appears to have got his brain working a tad.
So i think he has earned the shirt.

Ps Ruby,

Deacon does a lot of unnoticed stuff in the rucks etc, and is one of those players that other pros relish playing alongside.

This is a perfect type of game for him - up against a big powerful and maybe not so athletic pack.
I think he'll start, alongside Lawes

The main Haskell detractors will tell you that he's not got much nous, which may well have been true. But as you say, he's developed somewhat and has become a more dynamic option to Easter.

GeordieFalcon - See you on the 17th at Kingston Park BTW

I know where you're coming from Geordie and it's difficult to disagree. However, I think England need continuity in their 2nd row and not "horses for courses" if you like. Palmer offers a lot more and I think you'll need that when it comes to the "bigger" games. Deacon can also go missing on occasion IMO. However, at the end of the day we are splitting hairs here and I wouldn't be surprised to see Jonno choose the player who is more congruent to his own style of playing which of course is Deacon. Playing in France has done Palmer no end of good and he is beginning to look very effective. The Argentinian 2nd rows are also not to be taken lightly and this will be one hell of a battle in the front 5

Great White....i cant wait for your boys to come up.....

I suspect another

Ruby,

Palmer has been the key SR since Johno has been in charge. So it could quite easily be Palmer & Deacon starting.

I just think that Johno likes what Deacon does in the tight, and leading the lineout etc.
But as you say....we have 3 very good SR's and any combo is strong. A good position to be in.

I'll be there, East Terrace....

Haskell's started to look like the player he once threatened to be.

Croft is excellant and he's been doing more of the dirty work over his last few games. Wood is an outstanding prospoect aswell who's had an excellant season and a solid (if unspectacular) breakthrough into international rugby. He's worth persevering with, the only other player I would have paired with croft/haskell would be a fourie/armitage type forager. I think thats the strongest english backrow, robshaw perhaps(unsure if hes a real fetcher-type).

I dont really see why armitage hasnt been utilised more over the last year or so with Englands well documented problems protecting ball at the breakdown.

Easter will get the nod. Definitely not the player I would go for unless it was horendous conditions, which it will be at some stage in New Zealand.... Otherwise we need to have all round pace within the pack and having a back row of Haskell, Croft, and Wood, plus Lawes in the 2nd row will really give us forwards at the breakdown, which will compensate the lack of having an out and out 7. Putting Easter in automatically slows everything down, and takes away a lot of the advantage gained by having a 2nd row of Courtney Lawes's ability.

Wigglesworth to start? Good good. Will give me time to put the kettle on whilst he's distributing the ball from the base of the ruck.

As opposed to watching Rory Lawson, which would give you time to make the tea, look for the biscuits and then go to the shops when you realise you havent any in....

Wrong? Maybe, but then so is your appraisal.

It could be worse - if you had Iron Mike Phillips you could pop out for a 3 coures meal and then come back, put the tea on and see if the OH has got the pass yet

RubyGuby wrote:It could be worse - if you had Iron Mike Phillips you could pop out for a 3 coures meal and then come back, put the tea on and see if the OH has got the pass yet

I actually thought I had pressed pauseon the tv at one point a few weeks ago, i then realised i didnt have sky+ and the commentators were still talking

Well either that or see if he has punched someone

Palmer has been the key SR since Johno has been in charge. So it could quite easily be Palmer & Deacon starting.

Palmer hasn't been in the greatest form in the warm up matches after being such a star performer in the 6N. Deacon has been Mr Consistent and really has added to the tight five in terms of bulk and agression, I'm sure his carrying has even progressed to average as well. Lawes looked fairly good against Ireland and seemed to have a very good understanding with Deacon and Croft at the lineout. How many times did Wales and Ireland fall for the Croft dummy to the middle of the lineout only for Lawes to slip back to the tail and take the ball. Gave the backs great ball and a gutsy call to go to from Deacs, shame the backs didn't do a lot with it though.

Wigglesworth to start? Good good. Will give me time to put the kettle on whilst he's distributing the ball from the base of the ruck..

At least he doesn't need the Care 5 step run up before a pass. He does fling it straight from the breakdown even if he does spend precious seconds having a look around once he gets there.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Wigglesworth to start? Good good. Will give me time to put the kettle on whilst he's distributing the ball from the base of the ruck..

At least he doesn't need the Care 5 step run up before a pass. He does fling it straight from the breakdown even if he does spend precious seconds having a look around once he gets there.

I think that is where combinations are so handy. After the World Cup we'll probably see Youngs, Flood, Wigglesworth and Charlie Hodgson as our two half-back pairings in the EPS, and we could almost start selecting the half-backs as a unit rather than an individual. If a scrum-half has a good idea of where his fly-half will be standing, he won't have to take so long looking for him.

I would expect Easter to start. Haskell had a great game at 8 against Ireland but lacks the composure and experience at the back of the scrum, especially if our scrum is disrupted, which will undoubtedly happen at some point in the game against a side like Argentina.

That's when Easter comes into his own, withstanding the disruption whilst still providing good ball for Wrigglesworth.

I would expect the last 30 minutes to feature Youngs and maybe even Haskell moving to 8 and allowing Wood to play 6, thus providing a much more dynamic back row when the Puma's are tiring after all their tackling duties!

Interesting to hear the view that Simpson should have been given game time against Ireland. There was no point, apart from in the last 5 minutes or so when England were sufficiently secure with a win to give a green novice like Simpson a chance, winning was parramount. In my view he's there to cover for injury to the main 2 and may well not feature in any of the games, certainly nothing wrong in that should the other 2 9s stay fit.

BTW, I like the look of him and see him has a future player, but the WC is not the time for experimenting unless needs must.

After the World Cup we'll probably see Youngs, Flood, Wigglesworth and Charlie Hodgson as our two half-back pairings in the EPS

Possibly, I wouldn't rule out Care/Clegg being looked at in a Baabaas game or similar. Simpson might well come on to the scene more strongly as he continues to develop, he is after all an exciting prospect, unfortunatley one who has been hampered by injury.

Completely forgot about Care, feel a little silly now. Obviously he'll still be involved.

I agree with ruck40fun, I wouldn't be surprised (though disappointed) if Simpson didn't feature in any WC matches. Wigglesworth is seen as a better fit with Wilkinson and both he & Youngs will be given as much game time as possible to get them firing on all cylinders (Wigglesworth has only played 125 mins in 3 matches of international rugby in the last 3 years). That Simpson has no caps and wasn't given even 5 mins against Ireland seems pretty telling.

Apparantly they tried to get Simpson on but the ball was alive for ages so there was no break in play. Not sure how long they were planning to give him mind.

I think Simpson is only there a back up for Youngs in case he does recover form or fitness fully. If it had been Wigglesworth injured instead of Care I think it would have been Hodgson called up instead.

surely it should be ben youngs starting at scrum half, especially after the way he has played for england recently!

Not sensible to start a player straight after a long lay-off and surgery, the adrenalin and need to prove himself is too great a risk, particularly in the opening game of the WC.

Let him sit on the bench settle into the game and then come on with 30 minutes to go against a tiring back row. Wrigglesworth also needs game time to bed-in, is the player in posession of the shirt and up to speed with the Internatinal game, also played well against Ireland and deserves to hold onto the starting berth.