England team to face Argentina

As we thought, just two changes from the starting line-up Vs Ireland, with Easter and Armitage coming in for Fourie and Cueto.

http://rfu.com/News/2011/September/News%20Articles/080911_Eng_team_vs_Arg.aspx

Foden, Ashton, Tuilagi, Tindall (C), Armitage, Wilkinson, Wigglesworth, Sheridan, Thompson, Cole, Deacon, Lawes, Croft, Haskell, Easter.
Hartley, Stevens, Palmer, Wood, Youngs, Flood, Banahan.

A big, nasty forward pack to fight Argentina's pack, 3 brick walls in midfield (and happily an attacking threat with Tuilagi in there) and an exciting counter-attacking back-three if Argentina kick loosely. Some dynamic forwards on the bench and Youngs and Flood to come on and unlock Argentina if we're chasing a bonus-point. Banahan offers cover along the rest of the back-line, and has a good try-scoring record against Argentina (3 tries in 3 appearances).

Solid team for a solid match. Don't think I would change anything. Armitage deserves his spot on form despite Cueto's injury.

Roll on the weekend

A strong team and Argentina have had little preparation in terms of full matches, so this should be a win for England. They really have to make it count as this is a good opportunity to catch Argentina while they are still fairly under done.

Getting four tries could be very difficult for England so no bonus point expectation there for me, however I do think they are capable of denying Argentina the <7 point loss bonus point which could be crucial for the group outcome.

I think Armitage offers more in attack than Cueto so his loss is not a significant one at the minute. I can see the replacements not getting too much game time as England look to either try and get 4 tries or to deny Argentina getting within 7.

Either way very excited to see the tournament kick-off tomorrow and I am sure there will be a few upsets (I hope this game isn’t one of them!).

Strong team.

I would expect a 20 pointer from England as Argentina have has so few games together over the last year and are at a big disadvantage compared to other nations.

Good luck.

Both Armitage and Haskell coming in for what would be MJs first choice team actually strengthen the side imo.

Armitage and Haskell both do as much as Cueto and Moody and more.

Good luck England - always a better tournament when you lads play well.

Solid. Confident of a win, but I think it could be closer than many others think. It'll probably be by less than 7 OR by more than 12, depending on the Argentinians I reckon. It's hard to call this Argentine team because we simply haven't seen them play! Must make the video work for the England coaching set up a nightmare!

screamingaddabs wrote: It'll probably be by less than 7 OR by more than 12,

This sumes it up - nobody really knows much about this Argentina team. Our expectations are based largely on what they did 4 years ago - as most poeple have seen little of them since - but how relevant is that now? We'll find out very soon!!

Easter needs a massive game this weekend, he hasn't put in a performance to be proud of in a while and with Haskell looking very good at 8 his place is now under threat for the first time in his England career.

I don't think i'm the only one who would like to see Wood on in the second half and Hasell moved to 8.

Other then that though that's pretty much the best team we can play. Glad to see Hape is no where near the side and Armitage over Cueto is a big plus in my book.

Just a thought though. If Tins and Tui are our centres for the 2 big games (as it seems now) then we only have Banahan and Hape as center cover, both who really only play 12, so who is going to play 13 against the minnows? Cueto, Armitage? Really not a good set up.

only changes i'd make are Palmer in for Deacon, Youngs in for Wiggy...other than that i cannot see past a 20 point england win

on a side note, are Argentina due to join the Tri nations next year?

rugbyfan - Yes Argentina will be in the 4 Nations next year. Could make them a much more dangerous side over time.

Good solid England team - I see them "clicking" and putting 30 points on Argentina. It could get messy though and if England keep their discipline I see a yellow card when Argentina get frustrated...

This is a real opportunity for Armitage to stake a claim for a permanent place there - Cueto is yesterdays man an doffers very little now whilst Armitage has looked very sharp recently and getting back to his dangerous best. Foden, Armitage and Ashton offer great attacking potential

Yappy,

Against the minnows...i think

12 Hape
13 Banahan

could actually be quite effective.

I think we should win this by more than 7.
Anyone know the average age of the Argentinean pack? Must be quite high.

Can't complain about the team, looks like a step up from the 6N strong up front with more threat in the back line.

I reckon England by > 12

I will be interested to see who he puts out in the back line for Georgia & Romania, what odds on Hape, Banahan combo?

After watching our game against the Pumas I imagine England will look to wear them down for first 40 minutes then step it up a gear in 2nd half.

That said I am sure Manu will look to bash through them early on as well. I reckon Englnad by a comfortabe 15 points.

I don't care who's picked where, so long as we

A: win

and more importantly

B: Tindall passes the ball again

I had to pinch myself in the last match when Tindall off loaded for that try and set up the other with a grubber. He soon resorted back to form crash balling but here's hoping he continues to develop these aspects of play as his experience on pitch was crucial.

PS: I can see Banahan coming off the bench then going back on it as he's yellow carded. The Argies really don't like that bloke and he's been known to be a bit short fused.

Just as well Shaw isn't there too.

looking forward to seeing what 'brand' Haskell gets upto, he's been doing very well of late in different positions.

A few people were talking about the age of the Argentian pack.

But if my working out is correct its actually not that old.

1 Roncero - 33
2 Ledesma - 37
3 Figalo - 23
4 Carrizo - 27
5 Albacete - 30
6 Cabello - 32
7 Lequizmon - 28
8 Lobbe - 30

Age of their pack isn't really too important in my opinion. Remember "dad's army " in 2003? Being old didn't hold them back.

As GF says, apart from their number 2 it doesn't look like any of them are particularly old.

it does matter if that age is accumulated playing just club rugby.

Can someone do their age and caps..?

1 Roncero - 33 (44 Caps)
2 Ledesma - 37 (79)
3 Figalo - 23 (4)
4 Carrizo - 27 (19)
5 Albacete - 30 (41)
6 Cabello - 32 (3)
7 Lequizmon - 28 (34)
8 Lobbe - 30. (40)

damage_13 wrote:

B: Tindall passes the ball again

I had to pinch myself in the last match when Tindall off loaded for that try and set up the other with a grubber.

You can't argue with that statement, no oppostion coach would have planned for that!!

It makes you wonder what other tricks England have up their sleeve

It's more match fitness then age i think.

We really don't know what they'll be like, but it's fun to speculate.

It could either be a repeat of the Italy game or the Scotland game Or anything in between

I think England are targeting a bonus point win, although I don't think they'll be looking for 4 tries in the first 30 minutes. Maybe one in the first half and a few penalties, one in the 40-60 period and two in the last 20 as the Argentinians tire. If we are 10 points up with 2 tries on the board after 60 minutes, I think we'll look to push on and score get the bonus point. I can't see Argentina being 100% match fit and expect them to drop off. The big guys on to wear them down, then the dynamic bench options to tear them apart.

I will be very interested to see how the composure of the England side holds up through the 80 mins. If they continue to give a rash of Pens away then it won't bode well for the rest of the tournament. I hope to see fire in the belly and ice in the brain from England.

Tindalls pretty well known for his footwork so I dont see why it was such a suprise he set one up with the boot ( other than England scoring a try at all with Wilko on the pitch). Theres also his tackling which is important with a flakey defender outside him (howver with those two at 10 12 you wouldnt fancy anyone trying to run through that channel)

The obvious weakeness England have is the halfback pairing. Wilko got his spot back as much through Flodds poor form as his own good form and Wigglesworth is in the side because of Cares injury and Youngs' lack of game/training time with the squad..not because hes anything like first choice.


I cant imagine this will be anything other than a low scoring tactical borefest. Argentina arent the side tehy were 4 years ago and lack magic. England lack any serious attacking threat aside from the back 3 returning kicks and the occassional smash through from Tuilagi.

I'd say that's a first choice side, Wigglesworth ahead of Youngs aside.

Haskell at 7 makes sense given Argentina's liking of the pick and drive, his power is helpful to counter that, as is Easter's.

Armitage in the back three is also a postive move in my opinion. Personally I'd switch him and Foden after what we saw in the warm-ups. Foden could use another line of attack at the moment, and I think he could come off his wing at pace to great effect. In any case, Armitage is better than Cueto.

Mixed emotions for me this one. I think the best outcome for Scotland is for England to win by more than 7, but to not score 4 tries, so that's what I'll be cheering for!

Wow, reading the posts so far it seems that England have only to turn up tomorrow to give the Argies a big spanking. Lot of rose-tinted views so far, and while England are deservedly favourites I don't see them giving the Argies a hammering. Sure the Argies might be a bit undercooked but there's plenty of pedigree in their team, a pretty monstrous pack that will go hammer and thongs with England's pack, Dr Phil at 10 is still a great player and the two wingers who play in the English premiership are handy enough too. And please, talking of waiting for the Argies to "tire" - these are proven professional sportsmen and I don't see them tiring to anything like the degree some early posters think. England by 7-10, no bonus point.

England can get the 4 try bonus point here.

Well Argentina were the surprise package last time around.

Lightening never strikes twice though. You never for instance, see NZ unexpectedly bundled out by France twice.

Yep, England should be sweet.

Not so sure about the confidence being expressed by England fans here, dont forget last time we played them we lost. The looked rusty against Wales, but it was just that, rust. They will have got a lot from that first game and will undoubtedly be a totally different proposition on Saturday.

I believe it will be a very close game, which England can win, but if they waste point scoring opportunities, like thye did against Wales in the 2nd match, expect the same result. Claims that we could get the 4 try bonus point are extravagant to say the least, we are still struggling to score tries and this will continue unless Foden and Ashton find some form.

I'll be happy with a 3 point win!

Argentina have the game to rattle the English. They've been vulnerable to the direct assault of late, and unusually relied on expansive play to get them out of a hole. The pack seems to lack a certain amount of aggression and unusually seem to be showing signs of fatigue later in the game.

If England do lose, how much pressure will they be under for the Scotland game? It'll be immense.

TheGreyGhost wrote:

If England do lose, how much pressure will they be under for the Scotland game? It'll be immense.

If any of the groups favorites loses a game it will be immense!!!

The England team, partly by default has turned out very very well IMO and they are looking very strong behind the scrum with only their backrow looking a little unbalanced. I would not be surprised to now see England put 30 plus on Argentina.

Who's reffing this one?

True thegreyghost but on the other hand if England win it would make qualification for the quarter finals almost guaranteed.

Straight away after England could focus on beating Scotland to top the group with Georgia and Romania as good warm ups.

England have less pressure on them than the likes of Ireland,Scotland,Wales,South Africa and New Zealand.

The weight of expectation is certainly less than 2003 when England were the favourites and 2007 in a tougher WC pool as the world champions.

Let's not be complacent. Our last decent performances were against Australia last year and Italy this year.

We should beat Argentina but we have to respect them or we might come unstuck.

AP's Minder - good point, who is reffing this one.

Someone remind me again what rules the refs have been asked to focus on going into the world cup ..? the release or off the feet?

As an advocate of the B.Moore school of scrummaging I'd be happy if they focused on the straight put in and binding. That should see more stable and less impact related (collapsed) scrums.

I don't mind who's reffing or what laws the refs have been asked to focus on, as long as they all follow the same lines and are consistent.

I accept that there will be mistakes but its a nightmare when some refs allow a free for all for the ball on the floor and players flying off their feet, which appears to be what's allowed to happen in the Super 14 and a ref who seems to allow teams to slow the ball up and meddle with quick ball.

A balance would be ideal, but consistency is the most important factor we need to see.

I think this is the first time where I have actually predicted some things right! tindall/tuilagi centre partnership and armitage joins the foden/ashton party. this is my self-pat on the back.



9.Youngs
10. Flood
11.Armitage
12.Tindall
13.Tuilagi
14. Ashton
15. Foden

I think thats a horribly dangerous backline for this world cup that could really purr (dependant on young's return of course).

With the forwards setting a good platform as usual, will the breakdown problems rear their ugly head and undo england? Thats where scotland/argentina will target them.

ruck40fun wrote:dont forget last time we played them we lost

The last match was Nov 2009, which England won 16-9, despite having a front row that included Payne & Bell, Geraghty & Hipkiss at centre, Monye at FB, Hodgson at SH and Borthwick captaining.


I expect an England win, but not by a big margin. England aren't known for their fast starts to WCs, so I'm not anticipating loads of tries, but I'd back the defence to do a good job of holding the Argentine threats.

Bryce Lawrence is reffing

alcoombe wrote:

ruck40fun wrote:dont forget last time we played them we lost

The last match was Nov 2009, which England won 16-9, despite having a front row that included Payne & Bell, Geraghty & Hipkiss at centre, Monye at FB, Hodgson at SH and Borthwick captaining.


I expect an England win, but not by a big margin. England aren't known for their fast starts to WCs, so I'm not anticipating loads of tries, but I'd back the defence to do a good job of holding the Argentine threats.

I literally shudder to think of those days. How did we win anything??

yappy

I don't think we did win much!

I've got money on England by 20-25 points.

England look a good solid team and like other posters have said this is a game England should win...But i would like too had this is a Game England need to win, the first game of the tournament, confidence building for the team going into the next game.

But lets not get too confident just yet,England have had more time together than Argentina, but lets not underestimate Argentina.

Looking forward to the game.

1st game in the tournament is tough for every team, whether it be because of expectations, shaky build up or any one of a dozen reasons. The Pumas will be desperate to get one over on us and no matter what the form book says teams will under perform or over perform on an unpredictable basis.

I will be happy with a win and even happier if i see signs of players performing near their potential and nobody giving stupid penalties away. It's got to be back to basics and do them well everything else follows.

Heart says England by 15 but head says stand by for a kick in the pants.

yappysnap wrote:

alcoombe wrote:

ruck40fun wrote:dont forget last time we played them we lost

The last match was Nov 2009, which England won 16-9, despite having a front row that included Payne & Bell, Geraghty & Hipkiss at centre, Monye at FB, Hodgson at SH and Borthwick captaining.


I expect an England win, but not by a big margin. England aren't known for their fast starts to WCs, so I'm not anticipating loads of tries, but I'd back the defence to do a good job of holding the Argentine threats.

I literally shudder to think of those days. How did we win anything??

Made worse by that purple shirt!

alcoombe wrote:
The last match was Nov 2009, which England won 16-9, despite having a front row that included Payne & Bell, Geraghty & Hipkiss at centre, Monye at FB, Hodgson at SH and Borthwick captaining.

Ah, those were the days. Dream team

Keep an eye on Gonzo Camacho. Had a blinder for us at Quins last season, deceptively strong player, likes getting stuck in at the tackle and turning over ball.

He'll test our defence out wide for sure if they can get the ball out.

Comfort wrote:I think this is the first time where I have actually predicted some things right! tindall/tuilagi centre partnership and armitage joins the foden/ashton party. this is my self-pat on the back.



9.Youngs
10. Flood
11.Armitage
12.Tindall
13.Tuilagi
14. Ashton
15. Foden

I think thats a horribly dangerous backline for this world cup that could really purr (dependant on young's
return of course)


With the forwards setting a good platform as usual, will the breakdown problems rear their ugly head and undo england? Thats where scotland/argentina will target them.

yep agree with that but Wiggle & Wilko start so 5 out of 7 ain't bad. Probably 7 out of 7 in second half!