Vicious Victor Ortiz

What do you make of this guy?

He had a tough upbringing he and his brother were abandoned by his parents and left to fend for themselves grew up in care.

Seems like nice guy now, but use to deal drugs.

Had a big bust up with Robert Garcia so much so he doesn't speak to his brother because he trains Ortiz now.

As for his boxing, promised a lot in the amateurs till he ran into Amir Khan who boxed his ears off and stopped him in two because the fight was so one sided.

Got into a war with Maidana but quit went it go too tough, claiming he didn't deserve to get beating up like this and to look at his face.

Started well against Peterson but then got out boxed and looked clueless in the latter rounds.

Fought a good fight against Berto, but still got put down twice and was very easy to hit when Berto decided to get of the ropes and throw some punches. Did well when Berto was on the ropes centre of the ring he struggled.

And Berto and easy guy to hit himself and was untested at that level.

What is your opinion on Vicious Victor Ortiz?

A little more balanced than that.

So, evidently, is Pacquiao's :

http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/311222

Guess he would know.

His childhood and personal life aside he's decent. Like you said looked poor against Peterson and never looked that good against Nate Campbell before that. Quit against Maidana. He's far to easy to hit.

HumanWindmill wrote:A little more balanced than that.

So, evidently, is Pacquiao's :

http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/311222

Guess he would know.

“He (Mayweather) cannot underestimate Ortiz, because Ortiz is strong and a heavy puncher,”[b]

It crazy how quotes create an article only very loosely based on the quote.

Speaking of ' loosely, ' do you have categorical proof that Ortiz sent gunmen to Rios' house ? I'm not doubting you but, for legal reasons, we need to append your article with the proof or edit out the claim.

Thanks.

My opinion?

Would beat Khan nine times out of ten.

"First and foremost is Ortiz's youth. He is at least a decade younger than Mayweather. He is definitely in his prime at 24, while Mayweather, who is past 34, is several years past his prime—if anyone believes a boxer is in his prime between ages 26-32."

Erm...

Bob wrote:My opinion?

Would beat Khan nine times out of ten.

Really?

He's wide open someone with Khans speed and decent power would surely be hot favourite to beat Ortiz.

HumanWindmill wrote:Speaking of ' loosely, ' do you have categorical proof that Ortiz sent gunmen to Rios' house ? I'm not doubting you but, for legal reasons, we need to append your article with the proof or edit out the claim.

Thanks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKslqOgIiRs

http://www.boxingscene.com/robert-garcia-sets-record-straight-on-victor-ortiz--33917




"The last straw and where it became personal between Brandon and Victor was when this guy went to Brandon's house he pointed a gun at Brandon threatening to kill him.* Brandon's girlfriend (now wife Vicky) walked out and saw this. Brandon told her to go inside so she starts to run inside but slipped and hit her head on the floor cutting her head open.- Garcia

Bob wrote:My opinion?

Would beat Khan nine times out of ten.

Khan already 1-0 up.

And Khan absolutely schooled him in the amateurs.

Telegraphs his punches far too open, wide punches.

He has good power good work rate decent skills

prettyboykev wrote:

Bob wrote:My opinion?

Would beat Khan nine times out of ten.

Really?

He's wide open someone with Khans speed and decent power would surely be hot favourite to beat Ortiz.

At 147lbs, I doubt Khan has much power. I think I read soewhere that Ortiz has dropped all of the guys he's ever fought as a pro. I honestly think he'd catch Khan at one point, and when he does he'd do a much better job of ending it that Maidana did.

I've yet to be convinced by Ortiz he's struggled with two overrated boxers in Berto and Maidana with Berto probably being his best performance to date. I'd fancy Khan to beat him on most occasions though he stands a punchers chance if he can connect.

There's not much else in the division at the moment and for a comeback fight its a credible opponent from the Mayweather angle. As for Ortiz well despite not rating him myself he'll walk away with Floyd on his CV this year and most likely Manny a year or two down the line, which will make him plenty of money.

Hes not in Mayweathers class and I think he will be exposed as such barring some kind serious fall from grace for Mayweather. However his Berto indicates he should be a handful for all but the elite fighters in the division which is to say Pacquaio and Mayweather.

Thank you for the links, D4.

Regrettably, the ' gun ' incidents don't appear to be conclusively proven so, to protect our legal position, I shall edit that part out.

Feel free to add it again should you be able to provide conclusive proof, verified by Ortiz or his people.

Thank you.

Colonial Lion wrote:Hes not in Mayweathers class and I think he will be exposed as such barring some kind serious fall from grace for Mayweather. However his Berto indicates he should be a handful for all but the elite fighters in the division which is to say Pacquaio and Mayweather.

The welterweight divsion is lacking in depth at the moment, but it would not surprise me if Jones or Brook beat Ortiz.

I think Khan would beat Victor also, and may well do once he steps up to 147lbs.

I would not be surprise if Mayweather stops Ortiz, or Ortiz may quit again

Adam Pollack is a world renowned boxing author, journalist and historian. Here's his take :

Ortiz is a young hungry lion who is southpaw but his most powerful hand is his right, yet he has good power in his left. He isn't a blown up little guy either. He is in great shape and very strong. Mayweather is not a puncher, so there will be nothing to deter Ortiz. This isn't a former featherweight in Marquez nor a shot fighter in Mosley, which is all Floyd has fought in the past three years. We are talking a young, frisky, lively southpaw power puncher who can keep a good pace, who will not be deterred by Mayweather's power, taking on a guy who is past age 30 who has only been fighting less than once per year for the past few years. Not an easy fight for Mayweather. Sure Floyd might win with his superior defense, speed, and experience, but it won't be a walk in the park.

D4thincarnation wrote:

Bob wrote:My opinion?

Would beat Khan nine times out of ten.

Khan already 1-0 up.

And Khan absolutely schooled him in the amateurs.

Fair point. I'm not a boxing historian, so I'll put a question over to someone like Windy:-

Has there ever been a fighter that has improved from being a teenaged amateur to seasoned world champion?

HumanWindmill wrote:Adam Pollack is a world renowned boxing author, journalist and historian. Here's his take :

Ortiz is a young hungry lion who is southpaw but his most powerful hand is his right, yet he has good power in his left. He isn't a blown up little guy either. He is in great shape and very strong. Mayweather is not a puncher, so there will be nothing to deter Ortiz. This isn't a former featherweight in Marquez nor a shot fighter in Mosley, which is all Floyd has fought in the past three years. We are talking a young, frisky, lively southpaw power puncher who can keep a good pace, who will not be deterred by Mayweather's power, taking on a guy who is past age 30 who has only been fighting less than once per year for the past few years. Not an easy fight for Mayweather. Sure Floyd might win with his superior defense, speed, and experience, but it won't be a walk in the park.

Young hungry lion, sounds like rhetoric to me.
Southpaw, yes.
Power, not as powerful as Shane
Not being something, means nothing.
Floyd not fighting good fights for years does not make Ortiz better.
Young again, don't mean a thing. southpaw again, the guys is just repeating himself.
Mayweather has shown zero sign of slowing down, but again how does this make Ortiz better.

So after all that we got Ortiz is a southpaw.

D4thincarnation wrote:

HumanWindmill wrote:Adam Pollack is a world renowned boxing author, journalist and historian. Here's his take :

Ortiz is a young hungry lion who is southpaw but his most powerful hand is his right, yet he has good power in his left. He isn't a blown up little guy either. He is in great shape and very strong. Mayweather is not a puncher, so there will be nothing to deter Ortiz. This isn't a former featherweight in Marquez nor a shot fighter in Mosley, which is all Floyd has fought in the past three years. We are talking a young, frisky, lively southpaw power puncher who can keep a good pace, who will not be deterred by Mayweather's power, taking on a guy who is past age 30 who has only been fighting less than once per year for the past few years. Not an easy fight for Mayweather. Sure Floyd might win with his superior defense, speed, and experience, but it won't be a walk in the park.

Young hungry lion, sounds like rhetoric to me.

I don't think the writer actually thought Ortiz was a lion........

Well spotted, son.

Bob wrote:

D4thincarnation wrote:

Bob wrote:My opinion?

Would beat Khan nine times out of ten.

Khan already 1-0 up.

And Khan absolutely schooled him in the amateurs.

Fair point. I'm not a boxing historian, so I'll put a question over to someone like Windy:-

Has there ever been a fighter that has improved from being a teenaged amateur to seasoned world champion?

The score with something like 24-4 after 2 rounds, we not just talking about being beaten.

And Ortiz has improved, but Khan has improved more and has fought a better level of opposition.

Ortiz has some good physical attributes but his skill are decent to good at best. His heart can be questioned and has not shown he can adapted to adversity.

Why ask for opinions if all you wish to do is trash them ?

That isn't debating the issues, but rather betraying an utter disrespect for the opinions of others. Without being rude, Pollack's credentials on the worldwide stage are a darned sight better than yours, and they do have the advantage of being impartial.

Incidentally, Jorge Gonzales beat Lewis and Bowe in the same night as an amateur. Remember what Bowe did to him as a pro ?

Bob wrote:

D4thincarnation wrote:

HumanWindmill wrote:Adam Pollack is a world renowned boxing author, journalist and historian. Here's his take :

Ortiz is a young hungry lion who is southpaw but his most powerful hand is his right, yet he has good power in his left. He isn't a blown up little guy either. He is in great shape and very strong. Mayweather is not a puncher, so there will be nothing to deter Ortiz. This isn't a former featherweight in Marquez nor a shot fighter in Mosley, which is all Floyd has fought in the past three years. We are talking a young, frisky, lively southpaw power puncher who can keep a good pace, who will not be deterred by Mayweather's power, taking on a guy who is past age 30 who has only been fighting less than once per year for the past few years. Not an easy fight for Mayweather. Sure Floyd might win with his superior defense, speed, and experience, but it won't be a walk in the park.

Young hungry lion, sounds like rhetoric to me.

I don't think the writer actually thought Ortiz was a lion........

Well spotted, son.

Well he couldn't just put Ortiz is a young southpaw, he probably had a word count minimum for the article.

D4thincarnation wrote:

Bob wrote:

D4thincarnation wrote:

HumanWindmill wrote:Adam Pollack is a world renowned boxing author, journalist and historian. Here's his take :

Ortiz is a young hungry lion who is southpaw but his most powerful hand is his right, yet he has good power in his left. He isn't a blown up little guy either. He is in great shape and very strong. Mayweather is not a puncher, so there will be nothing to deter Ortiz. This isn't a former featherweight in Marquez nor a shot fighter in Mosley, which is all Floyd has fought in the past three years. We are talking a young, frisky, lively southpaw power puncher who can keep a good pace, who will not be deterred by Mayweather's power, taking on a guy who is past age 30 who has only been fighting less than once per year for the past few years. Not an easy fight for Mayweather. Sure Floyd might win with his superior defense, speed, and experience, but it won't be a walk in the park.

Young hungry lion, sounds like rhetoric to me.

I don't think the writer actually thought Ortiz was a lion........

Well spotted, son.

Well he couldn't just put Ortiz is a young southpaw, he probably had a word count minimum for the article.

Good job you don't.

HumanWindmill wrote:Why ask for opinions if all you wish to do is trash them ?

That isn't debating the issues, but rather betraying an utter disrespect for the opinions of others. Without being rude, Pollack's credentials on the worldwide stage are a darned sight better than yours, and they do have the advantage of being impartial.

Incidentally, Jorge Gonzales beat Lewis and Bowe in the same night as an amateur. Remember what Bowe did to him as a pro ?

I love that you know these things. Really I do.

Why thank you, Sire !

HumanWindmill wrote:Why ask for opinions if all you wish to do is trash them ?

That isn't debating the issues, but rather betraying an utter disrespect for the opinions of others. Without being rude, Pollack's credentials on the worldwide stage are a darned sight better than yours, and they do have the advantage of being impartial.

Incidentally, Jorge Gonzales beat Lewis and Bowe in the same night as an amateur. Remember what Bowe did to him as a pro ?

Prettyboykev and others made some great points, if I don't agree with something I will say so.

That article was just full of filler and rhetoric, not really telling you anything about Ortiz beside him being young, so what, and him being a southpaw.

D4thincarnation wrote:

HumanWindmill wrote:Why ask for opinions if all you wish to do is trash them ?

That isn't debating the issues, but rather betraying an utter disrespect for the opinions of others. Without being rude, Pollack's credentials on the worldwide stage are a darned sight better than yours, and they do have the advantage of being impartial.

Incidentally, Jorge Gonzales beat Lewis and Bowe in the same night as an amateur. Remember what Bowe did to him as a pro ?

Prettyboykev and others made some great points, if I don't agree with something I will say so.

That article was just full of filler and rhetoric, not really telling you anything about Ortiz beside him being young, so what, and him being a southpaw.

Yes, what a pity he didn't fill it up with interesting stuff like drug deals, imaginary gunfights, gangsta music from youtube, impoverished childhood, doesn't like his old trainer, etc.

You know, the important stuff.

D4thincarnation wrote:

Bob wrote:

D4thincarnation wrote:

Bob wrote:My opinion?

Would beat Khan nine times out of ten.

Khan already 1-0 up.

And Khan absolutely schooled him in the amateurs.

Fair point. I'm not a boxing historian, so I'll put a question over to someone like Windy:-

Has there ever been a fighter that has improved from being a teenaged amateur to seasoned world champion?

And Ortiz has improved, but Khan has improved more and has fought a better level of opposition.

.

Maussa, Maidana, Diaz, Harris, Campbell, Peterson and Berto?

You must really rate Malignaggi.....

HumanWindmill wrote:

D4thincarnation wrote:

HumanWindmill wrote:Why ask for opinions if all you wish to do is trash them ?

That isn't debating the issues, but rather betraying an utter disrespect for the opinions of others. Without being rude, Pollack's credentials on the worldwide stage are a darned sight better than yours, and they do have the advantage of being impartial.

Incidentally, Jorge Gonzales beat Lewis and Bowe in the same night as an amateur. Remember what Bowe did to him as a pro ?

Prettyboykev and others made some great points, if I don't agree with something I will say so.

That article was just full of filler and rhetoric, not really telling you anything about Ortiz beside him being young, so what, and him being a southpaw.

Yes, what a pity he didn't fill it up with interesting stuff like drug deals, imaginary gunfights, gangsta music from youtube, impoverished childhood, doesn't like his old trainer, etc.

You know, the important stuff.

I should have got some more young hungry lion in, and big and strong and fast that could have upped the word count. Maybe talked some more about what Victor isn't.

Says a lot but means very little.

D4thincarnation wrote:

Colonial Lion wrote:Hes not in Mayweathers class and I think he will be exposed as such barring some kind serious fall from grace for Mayweather. However his Berto indicates he should be a handful for all but the elite fighters in the division which is to say Pacquaio and Mayweather.

The welterweight divsion is lacking in depth at the moment, but it would not surprise me if Jones or Brook beat Ortiz.

I think Khan would beat Victor also, and may well do once he steps up to 147lbs.

I would not be surprise if Mayweather stops Ortiz, or Ortiz may quit again

Well I think at this point its a stretch for Jones and Brook, Khan, possibly, although I think Ortiz style and the higher weight would make it a very tough encounter.

The bottom line is Mayweather and Pacquiao are a class above everything else. Would expect Ortiz to be a challenge for anyone outside those two but cant see him even coming close to beating the big two.

He is a more than credible opponent though, if thats what you are hinting at.

Bob wrote:

D4thincarnation wrote:

Bob wrote:

D4thincarnation wrote:

Bob wrote:My opinion?

Would beat Khan nine times out of ten.

Khan already 1-0 up.

And Khan absolutely schooled him in the amateurs.

Fair point. I'm not a boxing historian, so I'll put a question over to someone like Windy:-

Has there ever been a fighter that has improved from being a teenaged amateur to seasoned world champion?

And Ortiz has improved, but Khan has improved more and has fought a better level of opposition.

.

Maussa, Maidana, Diaz, Harris, Campbell, Peterson and Berto?

You must really rate Malignaggi.....

I like Paulie, tough as nails and a ton of heart, a slick fighter but lacks power.

But Kotelnik, Malignaggi, Maidana, Judah, beats Ortiz's record.

Colonial Lion wrote:

D4thincarnation wrote:

Colonial Lion wrote:Hes not in Mayweathers class and I think he will be exposed as such barring some kind serious fall from grace for Mayweather. However his Berto indicates he should be a handful for all but the elite fighters in the division which is to say Pacquaio and Mayweather.

The welterweight divsion is lacking in depth at the moment, but it would not surprise me if Jones or Brook beat Ortiz.

I think Khan would beat Victor also, and may well do once he steps up to 147lbs.

I would not be surprise if Mayweather stops Ortiz, or Ortiz may quit again

Well I think at this point its a stretch for Jones and Brook, Khan, possibly, although I think Ortiz style and the higher weight would make it a very tough encounter.

The bottom line is Mayweather and Pacquiao are a class above everything else. Would expect Ortiz to be a challenge for anyone outside those two but cant see him even coming close to beating the big two.

He is a more than credible opponent though, if thats what you are hinting at.

At this point in time yes, mainly because he has fought at 147lbs unlike Khan and has a scalp of Berto unlike Brook and Jones.

But if Brook and Jones were to fight each other, I would put them ahead of Ortiz.

The welterweight division lacks real depth at the moment.

D4thincarnation wrote:

Bob wrote:

D4thincarnation wrote:

Bob wrote:

D4thincarnation wrote:

Bob wrote:My opinion?

Would beat Khan nine times out of ten.

Khan already 1-0 up.

And Khan absolutely schooled him in the amateurs.

Fair point. I'm not a boxing historian, so I'll put a question over to someone like Windy:-

Has there ever been a fighter that has improved from being a teenaged amateur to seasoned world champion?

And Ortiz has improved, but Khan has improved more and has fought a better level of opposition.

.

Maussa, Maidana, Diaz, Harris, Campbell, Peterson and Berto?

You must really rate Malignaggi.....

I like Paulie, tough as nails and a ton of heart, a slick fighter but lacks power.

But Kotelnik, Malignaggi, Maidana, Judah, beats Ortiz's record.

Bit of rhetoric works wonders eh, D4 ?

Ok he is very durable and never quits

Brook/Jones ahead of Ortiz in terms of what? Certainly not in terms of acheivement or wins so can only assume you mean raw talent at which point I would have to say they havent proved it enough at world level.

The welterweight division is weak yes, but mainly insofar as there is no one to challenge the two best fighters in it. If one considers Pacquiao and Mayweather as welterweights then the division could not be classified as weak relative to any other given it houses the two best fighters in the world.

Brook and Jones are irrelevant to someboday like Maywether and are quite clearly below Ortiz is almost every sense at the moment. The best you could say is that they have the unrealised potential to surpass him in the future.

Not forgetting Victor is younger than Khan, Jones and Brook. He's only going to get better.

Bob wrote:Not forgetting Victor is younger than Khan, Jones and Brook. He's only going to get better.

Bob I can tell your a big fan but I'm not sold mate imo Khan and Brook hand him his ariss on a plate. To quick to skilful and decent enough power for a guy who is far to easy to hit.

Colonial Lion wrote:Brook/Jones ahead of Ortiz in terms of what? Certainly not in terms of acheivement or wins so can only assume you mean raw talent at which point I would have to say they havent proved it enough at world level.

The welterweight division is weak yes, but mainly insofar as there is no one to challenge the two best fighters in it. If one considers Pacquiao and Mayweather as welterweights then the division could not be classified as weak relative to any other given it houses the two best fighters in the world.

Brook and Jones are irrelevant to someboday like Maywether and are quite clearly below Ortiz is almost every sense at the moment. The best you could say is that they have the unrealised potential to surpass him in the future.

I mean if they were to fight each other, the winner would move above Ortiz IMO.

I think when Bradley and Khan move up they over take everyone apart from the top two.
If you look at the division 5 years 10 year or 15 years ago the depth of talent was far more.

I agree with Colonial Lion's stance on this 100%.

Of course Mayweather is expected to win, just as Pacquiao is expected to beat Marquez. That is the nature of things with outstanding fighters, and it is not the same as saying that the opponents are second rate.

prettyboykev wrote:

Bob wrote:Not forgetting Victor is younger than Khan, Jones and Brook. He's only going to get better.

Bob I can tell your a big fan but I'm not sold mate imo Khan and Brook hand him his ariss on a plate. To quick to skilful and decent enough power for a guy who is far to easy to hit.

Hard to not be a fan of Ortiz. He is likeable and entertaining.

Brook I think may struggle with somebody as big, relentless and hard hitting like Ortiz. Ignore what Boxrec says about Brook, as Ingle always bigs up his fighters. I've gone nose to nose with Brook during a disagreement and at 5'11 and 160lbs I absolutely dwarfed him.

Back to the point, Ortiz can be beaten, and I believe Mayweather will do it quite comfortably. I just think a big, hard punching, busy southpaw with good fundamentals is a nightmare opponent for a fighter like Khan.

Ortiz may have lost a couple of fights, and even quit in one, but in both fights he had his opponent down twice and in real trouble.

Bob wrote:

prettyboykev wrote:

Bob wrote:Not forgetting Victor is younger than Khan, Jones and Brook. He's only going to get better.

Bob I can tell your a big fan but I'm not sold mate imo Khan and Brook hand him his ariss on a plate. To quick to skilful and decent enough power for a guy who is far to easy to hit.

Hard to not be a fan of Ortiz.

I'm not a big fan as a boxer but he comes across as a nice guy. He was totally undeserving of his shot at Berto.

prettyboykev wrote:

Bob wrote:

prettyboykev wrote:

Bob wrote:Not forgetting Victor is younger than Khan, Jones and Brook. He's only going to get better.

Bob I can tell your a big fan but I'm not sold mate imo Khan and Brook hand him his ariss on a plate. To quick to skilful and decent enough power for a guy who is far to easy to hit.

Hard to not be a fan of Ortiz.

I'm not a big fan as a boxer but he comes across as a nice guy. He was totally undeserving of his shot at Berto.

Ortiz is an exciting fighter, but not a great one.

Katsidis is a great fighter to watch but not a great fighter.

Oh dear he's going round the houses to trash a probable Mayweather win as we all know...

Subtle as a sledgehammer in the head...

Back to the bad old days.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
Subtle as a sledgehammer in the head...

Careful on the rhetoric there Truss. It doesn't like rhetoric..........

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Oh dear he's going round the houses to trash a probable Mayweather win as we all know...

Subtle as a sledgehammer in the head...

Back to the bad old days.

Whatever gives you that idea? Personally, I think Ortiz will improve monumentally inbetween losing to Mayweather and fighting Pacquio...

Bob wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
Subtle as a sledgehammer in the head...

Careful on the rhetoric there Truss. It doesn't like rhetoric..........

Definition of RHETORIC
1
: the art of speaking or writing effectively: as
a : the study of principles and rules of composition formulated by critics of ancient times
b : the study of writing or speaking as a means of communication or persuasion
2
a : skill in the effective use of speech
b : a type or mode of language or speech; also : insincere or grandiloquent language
3
: verbal communication : discourse

D4thincarnation wrote:

Bob wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
Subtle as a sledgehammer in the head...

Careful on the rhetoric there Truss. It doesn't like rhetoric..........

Definition of RHETORIC
1
: the art of speaking or writing effectively: as
a : the study of principles and rules of composition formulated by critics of ancient times
b : the study of writing or speaking as a means of communication or persuasion
2
a : skill in the effective use of speech
b : a type or mode of language or speech; also : insincere or grandiloquent language
3
: verbal communication : discourse

Very informative, D4.

Now you just need to learn the meanings of the words :

debate

and

impartiality

You could also try the word :

monotony

Speaking of which, I saw Manny on CNN INternational a day or two ago, singing ' Sometimes When We Touch.'

Doesn't he ever change the record, either ?

ortiz is a decent fight for mayweather, better than taking on a fighter years past his best and trying to make it out as a 50/50 fight (pacquiao), there is always the chance with someone like ortiz that he will train his heart out, and go all guns blazing. its a risk he doesnt need to take. BUT, in reality ortiz is a come forwards fighter, who is easy to hit and telegraph. his record isnt as great as made out and his decision to quit against maidana showed a serious lack of heart when things get tough. he won berto, but berto himself lacks wins over any serious contender. mayweather looks as crisp as ever, and it would be a real shock if he doesnt win this comfortably. mayweather is head and shoulders better than any fighter out there with the exception of you know who, and i take my hat of to him for taking a risk he doesnt need to take, but i think he will have given his choice of opponent a lot of thought and will be very confident he can beat him.

I'm utterly baffled as to why you felt a need to look up a word you have already been using in a dictionary.

Might want to look up words before you use them there George Dubya!

Hope the mods are going to be watching this guy's "contribution"......

to the boards...