Are the Irish sides going to dominate the Celtic League?

Since 2003 are honors are
Irish = 4 H-cups, 4 Celtic leagues 5 runners up, and 2 Celtic Cups
Welsh = 1 Almin cup 4 Celtic League, 2 runners up,

While it is 4 titles apiece , the Ospreys won 3 of the Welsh ones and could be argued to be the only Welsh side competing on a level as the 3 main Irish teams.

Last season for games between Irish and Welsh teams it was

Irish Sides 22
Draws 1
Welsh Sides 10

That is some difference, especially seeing as Connacht are the weakest of the 8 teams.

This season so far is

Ireland 8
Wales 2

Therefore its fair to conclude that this disparity between Welsh and Irish teams is set to continue.



Last year it was an Irish 1, 2, 3 and over the summer the transfers the Irish teams are bringing in were of a better standard to what was bought into Wales. Both Welsh and Irish acadamies are producing quality players.
Even the weakest Irish team Connacht, are greatly improved, over the last year.

It appears that the Irish teams with the IRFU investment, sponsorship deals and generally higher crowds are financially better off than there Welsh counterparts, which could lead to more of a gap (the Welsh teams do get WRU funding and have their own sponsorship deals but these seam to be for less).

My question is are the Irish teams beginging to pull away from the Welsh regions, or are the regions just in a rebuilding phase, and when its complete they will come back and be equally as strong as the Provinces?

They are the dominant force, but they are not dominating the league yet. Ospreys won the league two seasons ago and although I would not bet against an Irish side being winners this season, I would be hardly suprised if a Welsh team does.

My personal opinion is that, the Irish teams are beginging to pull away, Leinster and Munster were always at the top with Ospreys, but now Ulster are joining that mix.

Ospreys are a team that are in transition and will stay competive

However the Blues can't be said to be rebuilding with no new players coming in, they look like they will have to relay on younth players and could be years before they come up to an equal level.
Scarlets have rebuilt but aren't at the same level.
Dragons are improving but have a long way to go to compete at the Munster Leinster Osprey level.

I see it as being dominated by Leinster, Munster, Ulster and Ospreys, for the next number of years.

Well if it's 4 wins for Ireland and 4 wins for Wales then I would say no the Irish are not dominating.
Last season was a bit odd because it was very close and the Scarlets and Blues could easily of joined the Ospreys in the play offs, and only fell away in the last week or 2 weeks, so I don't think there is that much in it.

I do agree the Ospreys have carried Welsh rugby for far too long, but the other 3 teams are getting better and have a lot of good young players coming through which is great for Wales.

I do think also that the Irish teams greater success in Europe and their higher attendance figures will help them long term, and it's clear the Irish still have the money to tempt foreign stars to Ireland to make their teams stronger , while Welsh teams are exporting their talent and are not in the hunt for star names due to lack of money.

I don't think so. I think Leinster may struggle for playoffs this year. 15 men away at the World Cup and injuries to half a dozen other key players has left them facing a tough job. They may struggle in the Pro 12 though still do well in Europe.



I think as long as there are playoffs it becomes even enough. I don't see us dominating the Pro12 really.

I thought that this year the Irish teams would excel but really you can see from how Leinster are struggling that this probably won't be the case. They have a lot of players now injured or at the world cup, I do feel for them

Well to add to my argument
So far this season in games between Welsh and Irish teams, it is

Ireland 8
Wales 2

both the Welsh wins have been by the Ospreys

I believe I'm being proven correct that the Irish teams are beginging to dominate, with only the Ospreys able to compete.

Alsso 3 of the top 4 places are taken up with Irish sides, the one not in it are the european champs

Early days Kings...

If Ulster play as badly as they did yesterday in future we will be looking at the other end of the table

but to be fair Kingshu the last lot of games was 3 - 1 to Ireland but could have easily been 4-0 to Wales - I know that says something about the Wales mentality but it's a fine line. Just as last year Wales could have easily had 2 teams (and 2 of the 4 regions) in the play offs, especially as Ulster and Munster beat a few of the Welsh teams by a few points or a last minute score.

There are 2 big points though - 1. the Irish sides (in the main) have much better attendances and support than the Welsh sides, and as a result have a much more sustainable business.
and 2. Munster and Leinster (and even Ulster) have been a lot more sucessful in Europe than the Welsh regions.

Also good point ulsterman - this is a season where many teams will be missing large parts of their teams for lots of the season and will also have lots of players coming back on mass and upsetting the squad balance before leaving again 2 months later (for the 6 N) - so there are big chances for a totally mixed and unexpected league which is against the form of the past 2 seasons.

Last season it was

Irish Sides 22
Draws 1
Welsh Sides 10

That is some difference, especially seeing as Connacht are the weakest of the 8 teams.

This season so far is

Ireland 8
Wales 2

Therefore its fair to conclude that this disparity between Welsh and Irish teams is set to continue.

My worry is that if the regions do not sort themselves out, they will be left behind, and we'll end up with a top four like the English Prem League, (as in it the usual teams year after year) which makes the League unexciting for fans)

Smirnoffpriest is agreeing with me in a way with

There are 2 big points though - 1. the Irish sides (in the main) have much better attendances and support than the Welsh sides, and as a result have a much more sustainable business.
and 2. Munster and Leinster (and even Ulster) have been a lot more sucessful in Europe than the Welsh regions.

If the only region able to challange are the Ospreys, the other regions will find it very hard to build support > sponsorship > build a buiness to compete at the top level and will be left behind.

ie, Scarlets could become the Everton of the Celtic League, (never going to win it, but might sneak into top 4 once every 10 years or so, usually settle about 6th) will Scarlets fans flock to PYS to watch them?

I think thats a bit unfair on the Scarlets (and the other Welsh regions), as I think that they have had to rebuild totally and before they had to rebuild (and was in dire straights) they had won a Celtic League title and had been the Welsh flag bearers in Europe. Also I'm sure that once the Blues sort themselves out they'll get some big investment and (probably by buying most of the Dragons players) will be competing, at the very least with the Ospreys and Ulster.

I think while the Irish teams are better than the Welsh teams, Welsh attendances will continue to improve (and I think they may get a massive boost if we manage to beat Ireland in the QF) and the teams will get better as there is plenty of youngsters coming through. And I doubt we'd be having these discussions if the Scarlets/Blues had beaten Ulster into a play off spot last season and we'd had a 4-0 whitewash on the weekend, both of which were very close to happening.

I'm the same as you I want a competitive league and was so pleased when Edinburgh was shooting up the league 2 seasons ago, I really hope that both Scottish teams can galvanise their fans, find some money from somewhere and start competing again.

I would be surprised if we see the Irish sides once again the top three of another all-Irish final. One thing I would say is that the top six teams are all Irish/Welsh. The Scots and Italians look weaker.

I think that the group of Ospreys, Ulster, Cardiff, Leinster, Scarlets and Munster are going to provide the top six.

notch - you'll get some stick if you keep calling them Cardiff... lol

I think Trevisio will be in the mix and the Dragons/Connacht might just suprise the Blues

Smirnoffpriest wrote:notch - you'll get some stick if you keep calling them Cardiff... lol

It is true then Notch! You really do hate the Welsh!

I think Treviso will have a bad year. A tough RWC, a tough 6N and a tough HEC will see them stretched thinner than they were last year. The fell away towards the end of last year because they weren't used to a full season of demanding rugby and this year will be even worse.

Aironi, because of their fewer call ups, should improve.

Aw ffs, I called them Cardiff again

You know somebody actually complained I was trying to be a WUM for doing that? I didn't even realise... it's so difficult to break the habit of a lifetime.

It doesn't help that they're not "just the" Blues. The logo says Cardiff, the website is cardiffblues.com.

Well, to be fair, they are called Cardiff Blues.

It's not like you are changing it, just shortening it.

If folks have a problem with it they should take it up with whoever decided to call the Region Cardiff Blues, not the people who use the name.

As long as we keep having dodgy Irish refs then yes, the Irish sides will dominate the league

don't forget
In 2004 Cardiff Blues received the ERC Elite Award for having played 50 games in the Heineken Cup. This record began in 1995 when Cardiff RFC recorded an away draw at Bordeaux, and continued following the reorganisation of Welsh rugby in 2003, due to the club standing alone and rebranding as Cardiff Blues. ERC statistics show that the team has played 92 games in Europe as 1st Cardiff RFC then as Cardiff Blues(from the start of 2010/2011 season) while the Cardiff Blues' muddled marketing only includes the period since 2003 - 49 games.

and

Chief Executive, Robert Norster said, "A huge amount of effort has been made to ensure that the past 127 years of club traditions are not lost. We are delighted by the way these aspects have been respected and retained within the new modern brand."

and

Durning games the home fans Chant 'Cardiff, Cardiff, Cardiff'

I think its fair enough to call them Cardiff, it seams that they are Cardiff RFC, with a slightly more marketable name, really a super club rather than a region, but they were allowed to stand alone so really are just Cardiff.

So with all that how are we supposed to know if it's Cardiff or Cardiff Blues? They Club themselves don't even seam sure.

To make it more confusing the other standalone team marketed this weekend game as
The Scarlets will celebrate a landmark 5,000 games in their 139-year history as a club and rugby region

"Ieuan who played a total of 231 games for Llanelli scoring 193 tries said he remembered his first game for the region back in 1984"

They even say he played for the region/before it was a region!

http://www.rabodirectpro12.com/news/11158.php

So are they Scarlets or Llanali? or both and if they share a history then surley its ok to use the former name!

For me as an outsider if Cardiff and Lanelli, do things like this then thay are still Cardiff and Lanelli. If they want to be Blues and Scarlets then their history started in 2003.

I think the biggest disgrace is when people call:



Leicester Tigers - Leicester

Northampton Saints - Northampton

Cardiff Blues - Cardiff

Ulster Rugby - Ulster



It really grinds my gears when people don't use the full names

red_stag wrote:I think the biggest disgrace is when people call:



Leicester Tigers - Leicester
Northampton Saints - Northampton
Cardiff Blues - Cardiff
Ulster Rugby - Ulster

It really grinds my gears when people don't use the full names

But nickname-only is acceptable.

So from now on it's Tigers, Saints, Blues and, eh, Rugby.

Go on Rugby!! Stand up for the Rugbymen etc.

To be fair Munster, Leinster, Connacht and Ulster all use the term Rugby. I've thought that the Spuds, the Ladyboys, the Tokens and the Misfortunes (i.e. our usual nicknames) work far better

If Connacht were a band they'd be The Who?

Are those in the right order Stag?

And...you have spelled TURNIP MUNCHERS wrong?

MrsP wrote:Are those in the right order Stag?

And...you have spelled TURNIP MUNCHERS wrong?

Actually they are in wrong order



Turnips or spuds we don;t mind really.

Munster fans like both types of music as well. Both country, and Western

There's a comment on another thread about Llanelli RFC and how they used to act as a region for West Wales before regionalism and have always had a wide fan base. And that the region Scarlets are keeping the history because there are such a wide amount of people who associate with it. But thats another story.

I'd say the Blues are a mess, but Welsh people usually prefer you shorten it to the Blues instead of Cardiff - but I understand and aren't having a go, I don't think it's a big deal on this thread just I know lots of Welsh region fans have to put up with WUMs calling them the town names instead.

Apologies didn't want to take away from the thread - think i've made too much of this subject

greybeard wrote:Munster fans like both types of music as well. Both country, and Western

Classic! As long as you have drinks at somewhere called Bobs Country Bunker you're alright with me!

Smirnoffpriest wrote:There's a comment on another thread about Llanelli RFC and how they used to act as a region for West Wales before regionalism and have always had a wide fan base. And that the region Scarlets are keeping the history because there are such a wide amount of people who associate with it. But thats another story.

I'd say the Blues are a mess, but Welsh people usually prefer you shorten it to the Blues instead of Cardiff - but I understand and aren't having a go, I don't think it's a big deal on this thread just I know lots of Welsh region fans have to put up with WUMs calling them the town names instead.

Apologies didn't want to take away from the thread - think i've made too much of this subject

I'm not trying to be a WUM when I refer to them as Cardiff anymore than I am when I call Leicester Tigers just Leicester

The reason people are confused is because, well- it's their name. Scarlets used to be known as the Llanelli Scarlets until they dropped Llanelli from their name. Cardiff have included it in their name. That said, I've been trying to refer to them as the Blues but I slip into calling them Cardiff because it's been a habit of years. It's not meant to reflect anything.

Anyway, I think there isn't much of a gap between Welsh and Irish sides. I mean, it was only the year before last that Ospreys went to Dublin for the Final and won the title. Ospreys got a pretty comprehensive win against Ulster at the weekend

We're going to have another hard-fought season between the Welsh and Irish provinces.

Smirnoffpriest wrote:I'd say the Blues are a mess, but Welsh people usually prefer you shorten it to the Blues instead of Cardiff - but I understand and aren't having a go, I don't think it's a big deal on this thread just I know lots of Welsh region fans have to put up with WUMs calling them the town names instead.

Apologies didn't want to take away from the thread - think i've made too much of this subject

the only difference between Cardiff RFC, and Cardiff Blues, is Cardiff RFC always nicked the best players off Pontypridd and Bridgend, now Bridgend have jumped into bed with the Ospreys, Cardiff Blues only have Pontypridd to steal off!

Notch - i know ur not wumin soz if i made u think so

red_stag wrote:To be fair Munster, Leinster, Connacht and Ulster all use the term Rugby. I've thought that the Spuds, the Ladyboys, the Tokens and the Misfortunes (i.e. our usual nicknames) work far better

Or ladyboys / West Brits (that is accorinding to our potential president elect

The Irish look to have much better support and therefore might have a permanent financial advantage. This might see them pull away over time. I've always been so puzzled by the small crowds at Welsh games. Isn't it the national game? Don't all the people who refuse to support the regions understand that they are damaging the future prospects of Welsh rugby?

They probably do, but the feeling of disenfranchment and the way they got screwed over by the WRU and a few self-important money men has generated very strong feeling. It's disappointing, but it's also generated by the equally strong parochialism in Wales - I've seen it myself where when I lived in Llanelli it was always those damn Cardiff boys buying up everything and making a right man sausage up of everything. I moved to Ponty and it was "those Turks down West think their so good, they've royally f***ed us over up here" and when I moved to Cardiff lots of people seem to think that if you don't live in either Cardiff or Swansea you live in the Valleys and might as well be at the end of the world as "why would anyone want to go there/spend money there..." (I'm generalising of course, but I do think this sort of feeling exists).

As a result these fans think there's no way they'll go and watch ....., which is a shame. Personally I support any Welsh region if their playing a team from another country - unless of course it's at the business end of the season and the Scarlets are competing for a spot with that region. I go down and watch the Dragons and Blues when I can (not the Ospreys solely coz it's 45 miles from where I live, and if I'm going to travel that distance I'd rather go and see my own side of the Scarlets)

It will change though - I imagine in 10/15 years attendances will be up by at least 6,000 in each region. (hopefully more for Ospreys and the Blues), and hopefully (though I'm not too confident) a Welsh region can have some success in the Heineken Cup.

Wales have always produced great players though. That's one thing that won't change. But the regions will need the finances to keep their best players in Wales. It will not be good for the national team in the future if their best players are getting flogged for 30+ games in the Top 14 every year.

Feckless Rogue wrote:The Irish look to have much better support and therefore might have a permanent financial advantage. This might see them pull away over time. I've always been so puzzled by the small crowds at Welsh games. Isn't it the national game? Don't all the people who refuse to support the regions understand that they are damaging the future prospects of Welsh rugby?

It's a bit overstated- Munster and Leinster are consistently the best attended sides in the league, but Ulster and Connachts crowds aren't anything special. We've really struggled to get crowds in in the early part of the season. Ravenhill is a good ground in that it always looks relatively full rather than a big empty all-seater and the crowd is loud and on top of the pitch so you do notice poor attendance in many of the Welsh grounds more.

I'm sure if the Ospreys were multiple European Champions in recent years like Munster and Leinster their crowds would quickly rise. That said, given the position they were in going into the professional era, there is a lot of untapped potential in Wales.

Truth be told Notch, football rules in Wales, not rugby. Especially at club level and watching it socially. A HC win may up attendances at the Ospreys in the short term, but unless walk up matchday prices are dropped, crowds will continue to be poor. Wales may have passionate rugby supporters but also have the most fairweather fans. Be it region or national.


Anyhoo stag, I also hate it when the Ospreys full name isn't used either............F kingOspreys!

Breadvan I still can't see this as a reason, football may Rule in Wales, but in Ireland Football, Gaelic Football and Hurling come well before Rugby.

Difference is that most Irish fans don't just follow one, but will follow all 4 or 2 out of the four at least.

Thats why I belive Wales is full of Football or Rugby fans, where they could be described as more diehard, they will watch one or the other but not very many will follow both and there is little cross over.

Where as in Ireland we are sports fans, willing to follow a range of sports and attend different sports, and not just stick to one. That is why I think with a small population we can fill stadiums consistantly in all 4 of the major sports as the same fans that turn up to watch Cork in GAA will be in Thomond the following weekend and watching Cork City FC the week after.

Don't think ticket price can be blamed either as tickets for Leinster and Munster are about the same as the regions.

I do believe that it is down to success. But if Ospreys with 3 Celtic leagues struggle the rest will also. Cardiff got a run to a semi final but this hasn't had a great boost either. I think it will take a team winning the H-cup to boost attendances and finaces, but would it boost attendances for the other regions?
If not how can the Blues and Scarlets improve attendances as realistically they won't win the h-cup soon

I think it will take a while to boost attendances - correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Ireland had the problem of big resentment being created when their regions were set up and weren't as paroical as the Welsh.

As you say there are soo many diehard supports who'd never support a 'wendyballers' team or a team that threw the 'egg' around in Wales it's ridiculous - we even have football fans in Wales that won't support Wales because a lot of Cardiff (or ex Cardiff) players are in the team and these fans support Swansea!

It's crazy - but I think give it 5 years and you'll see the attendances steadily increase, hopefully within that time we can have some better performances in Europe and regularly reach the Q/F and S/F and that will help. But Wales is so ridiculously parocial it's crazy and really annoys me

I dunno, I guess it comes down to the fact that yes, people are passionate rugby fans and love watching the game but can take or leave it when attending their regions matches. Ospreys for example. Full house for Scarlets, 3/4 full for visiting jeff team in HC, 9-10,00 for Blues and thats as good as it gets.

Surely it is up to the regions to do more. You can only play with the cards you're dealt. If the fans don't want to come the regions need to make a big effort to bring them along.

Targetting the kids is a big one. Why not have a mini rugby match at half time - that means that Mums and Dads are going to buy to see their kids play. Munster do this in almost every match I've been to.

I think the Scarlets initative this season where if you bought a season ticket, you become a shareholder, was a very good one and helps people feel attached to region.

I think they really need to make a big effort to convince people its worth it. Maybe even tactically placing "cheerleaders" around the stadium. I don't mean the small girls with pom poms and a backside like a nectarine. No, have old fat blokes, young students, men, women - maybe a few dozen in total placed around the stadium who scream and cheer and sing and drum up support and make small talk about how much they love coming to these games.

Kingshu wrote:Breadvan I still can't see this as a reason, football may Rule in Wales, but in Ireland Football, Gaelic Football and Hurling come well before Rugby.

Difference is that most Irish fans don't just follow one, but will follow all 4 or 2 out of the four at least.

Thats why I belive Wales is full of Football or Rugby fans, where they could be described as more diehard, they will watch one or the other but not very many will follow both and there is little cross over.

Where as in Ireland we are sports fans, willing to follow a range of sports and attend different sports, and not just stick to one. That is why I think with a small population we can fill stadiums consistantly in all 4 of the major sports as the same fans that turn up to watch Cork in GAA will be in Thomond the following weekend and watching Cork City FC the week after.

I'd say I'm the only one who would go to all 3! CCFC don't get massive crowds. You're point is correct though ,most Irish people will follow two/three sports.

Fair play to the Ospreys, they DO make the effort to attract more support. Asdvertising around Swansea, Supporters village with a band, bouncy castle before some games, the brass band during games (altho they'll be making their first appearance this season on friday) and kids tag rugby at half time. Season ticket holders are automatically a member of the official supporters club and all its perks.

Like the idea of cheer leaders mind. Instead of small girls,use uni students instead with hooters style uniforms.....

Red Stag, at half time there are 4 junior teams from around the region playing on the Liberty pitch, there has been for about 4 seasons now where an adult can buy a season ticket for £165 and can take 4 under 16 free in the Family section for the whole season,I took advantage of that scheme for 2 seasons and took 2 of my Grandchildren, I've been unable to do it for the last 2 seasons due to ill health, there are numerous other schemes to encourage supporters to support the region.
There has been disquiet on the Ospreys website for a few years that they do not do enough out and about in the Region, this has now changed, although some on the website reckon it will not make any difference, they are at least trying something new which I'm all for.

see the point that i'm trying to get at is that while people say the attendances will improve in the regions in 5-10-20 years time, by that stage it could be 2 late.

take Man U when the prem started, they weren't the biggest or richest team in the league at the start, however after 10 years of throphies, full stadiums and increased sponsorship, they were the biggest and richest team, and the only teams take could realistically challange them are the ones that get taken over by multi multi billionaires.

Now if Munster and Leinster start doing the same now, in 10 years time will the regions be in a position to challange them? or will they need a russian benefactor to take over one to hope to challange?

remember the extra finace now, allows for more youth coaches, better acadamies, better facalities, better players, so the team doesn't just improve now but continues to improve.

you may say won't happen as the regions will still produce good players but, Regional acamadies may continue to produce quality players, but so goes Evertons and as soon as they are good they are off for more money than Everton could offer.

Welsh rugby has a village mentality, the reason people loved the rugby is because we have one chance a year to unite and go against the invading English. Aside from that each city, town, village has a chance to go against it neighbour for local pride and bragging rights and that has always been where the interest is.
No one is going to pretend that regional rugby against the Irish teams hasnt been better at developing our players for international rugby, but it isnt what excites Welsh people I'm afraid.