The thinking mans game

Golf clearly requires more planning and thought compared to most sports due to the difficulties of navigating the course and the hazards along the way. At all times the player must decide how the shot they plan to hit will react to the conditions and landscape and where that leaves them for the next shot. Unlike many sports where most decisions are made in a millisecond in golf you have many minutes to think about each shot. Both in terms of how to play it strategy wise and how to execute it technically.

The main advantage a more intellectual or academic player would have is the ability to understand course management (the probabilities related to each shot outcome and longer term statistical nature of shot choice) and an understanding of the architecture and how this impacts how to play the course.

Is this apparent advantage actually a disadvantage, although some thought must be given to the game, I do wonder how complex the thought process really is and whether it is no more than experience as opposed to logic and analysis of the situation. I would not think that intelligence would really help a player gain an advantage in the game, so if we were to conduct a study where all other factors of success on the course could be held constant but intelligence of the payer increased I do not think we would see and improvement in scores.

Now of course this also assumes that intelligence would not contribute to the base level of performance the player had, for example being able to understand a coaches instructions more clearly. If an increase in performance is not expected then is it possible that with greater intelligence there is actually a drop in performance, once a relatively high intelligence is reached. The time to think about shots in golf is wide open to over analysis and complication of the task at hand. The less thought that goes into it the more a natural reaction can dictate how the shot is hit.

This raises an interesting thought which proposes that although the intellectual element of the game is one of the real joys it is not crucial to shooting the lowest scores. Again we must assume that course management can be gained through experience by even the lower intellect player.

As an example of a sport where the intellectual element is crucial we need to look at F1, the smarter teams always win. In golf we do not always see the smartest players win despite the amount of time you have to think about it.

So in golf monthly’s game improvement section I hope to see in the near future a section which recommends skipping school, ignorance of classic literature, refusal to do mental arithmetic and a general apathy to learning.

Mac, behave.

Looking at some of the photos around in most club's bar and clubhouses, i'd say that as well as being thick, a narrowing of the gene pool is also a helpful ingredient for producing an effective golfer

What a totally an utterly pointless load of crap.....

I take it this was your wonder idea to discuss the merits of education.....

Simple fact is Mac sport no matter what it is signifies no difference in intellectual ability.

Everytime someone starts a thread like this, baby Jesus crys. True fact.

mac, you'd have a better chance starting a debate about facial hair on here...apparently[!]

as an aside, another benefit of skipping school would be the extra time to practice.

my coach when i was a junior was always telling me i thought too much. though he always insisted that thinking during shot preparation was essential - it was my inability to turn my brain off during the shot itself that let me down. and its true, all my best rounds have occurred on days when i have had the ability to simplify my thoughts (empty my head if you will), and execute the shot without engaging my brain during the shot itself. the key ingredient here for me is practice - muscle memory - so i don't need to think through the swing, and make it all about the shot selection and excecution on the course.

Skipping school might be useful for some aerobic exercise...

maybe thats where all the boxers flunk off too?

I don't believe there is any correlation whatsoever between golfing ability and intelligence.

In sport, you either get it or you don't. Sport is littered with examples of highly skillful, accomplished people that don't have 2 braincells to rub togther.

Beckham and Rooney spring instantly to mind. Neither are university material but they are amongst the best in the world at what they do. In the world of golf, Bubba, Boo Weekly, JB Holmes and Tommy 'two gloves' Gainey are all good enough to have won on tour but somehow I can't see them reading Tolstoy to pass the time.

Next thing Mac will be asking for all posters to stick up their handicaps and educational backgrounds as some form of scientific evidence to try and prove himself right.

Considering Mac's handicap ranges from an alleged 3-15 that could mean he has anything from an GCSE in Woodwork to a PhD.

I wonder does Macs handicap fluctuate when the FTSE does

More like when the circulation of The Guardian or opinion poll ratings of the Labour Party fluctuate.

My old Uncle used to say that to be a golfing great you have to be as thick as a brick or highly intelligent.
I tend to agree with him.

Stands to reason Doon, Nicklaus seems quite bright and articulate, Woods is completely the opposite.

To be honest I cant say that any of the greats strike me as being incredibly intelligent or indeed thick. Woods, Faldo, Nicklaus, Watson, Mickleson, all seem about the same to me as far as I can tell from interviews etc.

To be fair to Mac I think this is an interesting question, albeit a bit laboured in the original post.

Does intelligence have any effect on golfing performance? Speaking from my own experience, I would say no. I would say I'm fairly intelligent, and a decent golfer (references provided on request ) but I'm quite analytical in my approach to things, and I definitely suffer from over-analysis. As ban_bam says above, my best rounds are when I keep my mind quiet. If anything, my inability to keep my mind quiet holds me back, so would impact my golf negatively not positively.

As for course management/strategy, I don't think there is any correlation with intelligence. I believe this is more to do with how you well you visualise/plan, which I don't think is necessarily related to intelligence. I wouldn't say I'm particularly good at either.

Maybe I'm just not as intelligent as I think!!

Sandy Lyle and Tom Watson

Where does instinct lie in this conundrum?

What made Seve play shots that no one else would think about.?
Remember that a fair portion of these shots failed, we only recall the wonder shots.

Was he stupid or intelligent?

To be honest I think you're being harsh on mclaren, he has a valid point. I don't think it's intelligence in an academic way but a kind of a "Sporting intelligence" shall we say.

The intelligence to manage your way around a golf course

The intelligence to position a cue ball on a snooker table for the next shot in order to keep a break going

Intelligence in movement when not in posession of the football

....and so on.

Friend of mine who plays golf is good ability wise, but has none of the above, just smashes it as hard as he can all the time. I try and get across to him the benefits of course management but it's just in one ear out the other.

Doon, maybe Seve was intelligently stupid and knew that a) we'd only remember the incredible ones and b) whilst most of the time they wouldn't come off, on the weeks they all did he'd likely come close to winning, and with style

Doon

who knows, maybe both? Maybe there should be a separate category of 'genius' which can sit immediately next to 'muppet'

Vision is something different altogether but having the ability to pull off the shots that you visualise requires a special talent.

Seve was cavalier. I don't think you could call his shot selection intelligent. He trusted his ability, sometimes too much.

JPX

I'd agree, but Mac was quite specifically referring to academic intelligence. Personally, I don't think your definition of "sporting intelligence" and academic intelligence are necessarily related. Rooney springs to mind as a prime example again.....

Interesting... I've always had a theory that more of the greatest footballers have been very intelligent than not. Messi, Pele, Cruyff, Beckenbauer Zidane (even if you include the headbutt). Maradona might be the exception here... Its probably what separates Messi and Ronaldo at the moment, not that there is the greatest of gaps between them. The ones that are pretty good eg Becks and Rooney have got natural talent but they arent really the brightest, nor the best. You've got to have abnormal amounts of natural talent but if you arent intelligent enough to know how best to use then its usually wasted to some degree. Lord knows I wish my club would have some sort of IQ test before buying some players...

super_realist wrote:Stands to reason Doon, Nicklaus seems quite bright and articulate, Woods is completely the opposite.

It's all perception I guess.

My perception would be the opposite of the above. Nicklaus, when interviewed, seems a typical US "jock" type - speaks passionately rather than particularly articulately about golf and that's it. Woods, on the rare occasion we see a frank interview with him, rather than the bland press conferences he often gives, seems a far more intelligent type to me

Tiler, I wasn't suggesting they are linked. I think it is intelligence, but not in an academic way.

Messi and Zidane intelligent, really ? Not that Id say they were thick but no brighter than Becks to be honest. Pele isnt exactly the sharpest tool in the box either, made aa few huge gaffs in his time.

I once heard of someone clearing out the rubbish from an aircraft who found a book full of noughts and crosses played during a transatlantic flight.
Owned by none other than Posh and Becks, that's the intellectual level of a footballer, not just playing a childs game, but repeatedly playing it.

Fact -most sports persons were playing sport when they should have been studying

Ok heres a theory and one that was actually proven recently in footballing terms with a recent documentary on Sky Sports about Cristiano Ronaldo, whereby they conducted various experiments to guage.

But one I think applies directly to Golf and thats it's not level of intellect that's relevant but actually the individuals level of spatial awarness, the ability to take in your surroundings and compute what they mean to the shot type you wish to play. By no means do you need to be of superior intellect to be of a high level of spatial awareness, if anything it works the other way around.

In my view, you are all confusing sporting intelligenece with academic intelligence. That's irrelevant in my opinion.

I knew this would be a good debate. Sorry if people found the OP laboursome but I just wrote it as I thought of it inbetween some work.

Is there not a link between spacial awareness and maths ability?

Maybe I'm not old enough to really have an opinion on how intelligent Pele appears, although I cant imagine he would have had the greatest educations, which everyone needs no matter how intelligent they are. If Messi and Zidane are no brighter than Becks than it must just be their skill that sets them apart. But IMO in order to be in the top echelon of whatever you must be pretty intelligent. There will be some that peak that may indeed be thick but I'd wager they never tend to stay there very long.

I suppose there is a difference in academic and whatever else intelligence and that was the original discussion. However, I still maintain my theory that most of the top footballers, and I suppose sportspeople in general, were particularly bright intelligent people. Would these people succeed academically if given the chance? I'd like to think so. Look up some of the various definitions of intelligence on the net...

McLaren wrote:Is there not a link between spacial awareness and maths ability?

I can see where your coming from on this, but the answer I would say is there not always. We did a test at school many moons ago when i was a wee boy, had some sort of special name can't for the life of me remember whats its called. However it was designed to work out where students excelled, it was basic mental arithmetic, literacy and was designed to test how spatially aware you were.

The results were that those who were more sporting and less academically astute were more spacially aware and as such was why they excelled in those fields. Intelligence is not always being book smart and being able to spell

Digs, I was going to say the same thing. Pele definitely does not come across as intelligent. Arrogant yes. Intelligent no!

I think Becks gets a hard time because of his voice but I think he's infinitely more intelligent than most footballers

Lairdy wrote:Maybe I'm not old enough to really have an opinion on how intelligent Pele appears, although I cant imagine he would have had the greatest educations, which everyone needs no matter how intelligent they are. If Messi and Zidane are no brighter than Becks than it must just be their skill that sets them apart. But IMO in order to be in the top echelon of whatever you must be pretty intelligent. There will be some that peak that may indeed be thick but I'd wager they never tend to stay there very long.

I suppose there is a difference in academic and whatever else intelligence and that was the original discussion. However, I still maintain my theory that most of the top footballers, and I suppose sportspeople in general, were particularly bright intelligent people. Would these people succeed academically if given the chance? I'd like to think so. Look up some of the various definitions of intelligence on the net...

They dont come much thicker than Gazza and he was a very intelligent footballer. In sport its just that ability to see or understand something others cant, just like being musically gifted I guess.

The individual on the PGA Tour widely regarded as the academic smartest is Joe Ogilvie, thought by many to be Commissioner-in-waiting.

Not sure if that makes Mac's point or defuses it!

Two most instinctive golfers I ever saw were Seve and Sandy Lyle. Not sure what that tells you either (except perhaps I've lived a sheltered life).

PS: Along similar lines, I reckon the latest edition of Rooney (on TV at least) is as close to football genius as it gets; position, weight of pass etc fantastic! Admittedly haven't seen nearly as much of Messi.

Digs,
Didn't see so much of Gazza but from what little I've seen . . . . . That sort of genius in my terrace-standing days was reserved for Stan Bowles!
Not so sure about Beckham though.

Maverick wrote:

McLaren wrote:Is there not a link between spacial awareness and maths ability?

I can see where your coming from on this, but the answer I would say is there not always. We did a test at school many moons ago when i was a wee boy, had some sort of special name can't for the life of me remember whats its called. However it was designed to work out where students excelled, it was basic mental arithmetic, literacy and was designed to test how spatially aware you were.

The results were that those who were more sporting and less academically astute were more spacially aware and as such was why they excelled in those fields. Intelligence is not always being book smart and being able to spell

I think maybe what you mean are Psychometric Tests maybe? I believe they're widely used in entrance exams for a variety of jobs. Certainly were for Air Traffic Control.

I am not usually rude on here, but this topic is the biggest load of garbage, that I have ever seen on any golf boards

Hibbz

Do you do air traffic control at edinburgh. If so please exalpain why my ryanair fligh almost ended up in a field last week?

I know a thing or two about flying and the flap setting and engine power seemed very odd coming into land. It was the worst landing ever.

McLaren wrote:Hibbz

Do you do air traffic control at edinburgh. If so please exalpain why my ryanair fligh almost ended up in a field last week?

I know a thing or two about flying and the flap setting and engine power seemed very odd coming into land. It was the worst landing ever.

No I don't, so no I can't. Sorry.

It's not the flying, it's the not flying that's the problem.

oldparwin wrote:I am not usually rude on here, but this topic is the biggest load of garbage, that I have ever seen on any golf boards

OP totally agree. Complete tripe

Hibbz

At a mile out what altitude would you expect a commercial airliner to be at?


Mav and oldie

If so much of the game is between the ears is it not right to consider how intellect could influence your game?

Mac, most UK ATC is done from Swanwick, not the local airport into which you fly.

Not really Mac no, because thinking to much in any sport leads to tension thus leading to poor performance. As I said earlier sporting intellect and academic intellect are 2 very different things. It's like asking someone what level of education they have had and what current playing handicap is and trying to draw a correlation that way.

It's like saying player A left school at 16, went to work but plays of 16 and the reason for that is he never had the intellect to go further in life or Player B plays of Scratch and went to Uni, now CEO of a major organisation has his golfing ability thanks to academic excellence. Now you can easily turn those 2 things around at Player A can be scratch and B a 16 due to sporting excellence.... Flawed argument

McLaren wrote:Hibbz

At a mile out what altitude would you expect a commercial airliner to be at?


Mav and oldie

If so much of the game is between the ears is it not right to consider how intellect could influence your game?

McLaren I'm not an Air Traffic Controller at all. I'm a postman. I know about the tests because I tried, and failed, to become an Air Traffic Controller once.

And no I don't know why your post was late this morning.

Mac, I too will apologise for being rude but you do sometimes come across as one of those guys who thinks he 'knows a thing or two' about everything

Mac

The great Arnold Palmer said " you hit the ball hard, go find it and hit it again" he won loads without thinking to much about it, so you can say I am with Arnie on this one

I think the brighter golfers probably manage their life a bit better. Maybe realise that as well as talent you need to work very hard as well. In todays game you need to make sure you are surrounded by good people, arrange a good schedule, that kind of thing.
So I think if you are intelligent then it can probably help you get the most out of your sporting talent.