Scotland are in trouble

After that world cup and pretty much zero depth to come through for a pretty old team i see nothing but heart ache for Scottish rugby,
Italy are ahead of them on player development and look set to over take Scotland in the next two seasons.

Wales and Ireland are looking good with young talented players coming through and of course France and England never will drop out of the world top eight due to depth and pedigree.

With Scotland's woes add Andy Robinsons negative and out dated playing style on penalty, drop goal ,kick chase and wait for mistake these younger fitter and far more skilful other home nation teams are going to punish Scotland.

What do you guys reckon?
I personally would hate to be proven right in a few years time because i have always had a soft spot for Scotland but one can't help but think the writing is on the wall.

I think Scotland have some good players coming through and the core team might not be the youngest but has a few more years left yet. The defence is brutal and they have good set pieces and a decent tactical game that makes life difficult for the opposition. They just need a spark in their backs and they could be a threat to anyone.

Scotland are in trouble ??

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!! Ha,ha, don't really care!!

Blues 13-34 Glasgow

Glasgow 24-19 Dragons

Edinburgh 29-14 Munster

.Ospreys 26-19 Edinburgh

Edinburgh 19-14 Connacht

I dunno about the rest of the Scottish fan's but these results are giving me cause for concern

Scotland in truth have a variety of answers to our Try Scoring problems coming through in the form of Weir and Hogg for Glasgow and the likes of Laidlaw, Scott, Jones and Visser for Edinburgh. Couple that with Established names at Edinburgh like Thompson who has been playing well, Cuthbert for Bath and Ansbro and The Lamont brothers all under 30 I'm not particularly worried.

As for players ages I would anticipate the only players to retire after this world cup would be Paterson, Parks and Hines.

Our biggest problem is loosehead prop and inside centre. I reckon we have pretty good strength and depth in all other areas of the pitch.

I agree, I am not overly concerned, and parts of the WC were pleasing despite the obvious issues.

I would be more concerned as an England supporter really, especially if Johnson is allowed to continue

With a bit more luck against argentina... who knows ... scotland could still be in the RWC. they for sure have talented backs and solid forwards so they could cause problems to any NH teams provided they score tries on regular basis.

How can Scotland be and old team when their average age is 27 - Wales is 26 ?

JDandfries wrote:I agree, I am not overly concerned, and parts of the WC were pleasing despite the obvious issues.

I would be more concerned as an England supporter really, especially if Johnson is allowed to continue

and yet we are not

In fact we are the 2nd youngest in the 6Ns ! Will be even younger with Hines Parks and Paterson out of it. Will have to get Jackson kicking lessons though -maybe Hook or S Jones could help

Or Wilko - he had a good RWC

I'm not really sure of young Scottish talent, their depth does worry me a lot though.

Lee Jones the winger for Edinburugh looks very talented and someone they should look to bring into the National side, he has dancing feet and searing pace, when I saw his try against the Scarlets I was amazed why they havent picked him for the World Cup.

Alyn,

because Robinson, picks on reputation and not, contrary to what he claims, on form. Therefore guys like Lee Jones , Greg Laidlaw, Stuart Hogg do not get a look in.

I think it is a bit of an over-reaction from the author as we have a pretty young squad, with only Hines, Patterson and Parks probably being too old to play in the next world cup. Maybe Chunk too but can see him going forever!

Areas of weakness:

Loose head - who is 3rd in line after Dickinson? Kyle Traynor isn't even Rabbo standard never mind international and Welsh has gone backwards the past couple of seasons

2nd row - Gray, Kellock and Hamilton will be the mainstays 'til the next world cup but, if one of them gets injured, who is the 4th choice?? I honestly can't think of any Scottish 2nd rows that come even close to international standard. Gilchrist at Edinburgh is only 19/20 and looks promising but it will be a few years yet before he is close to being ready.

Scrum half - this is maybe looking 2-3 years in the future but Cusiter, Blair and Lawson are all late 20's/ 30 so will probably retire within the same year or two. Laidlaw is the heir apparent but there are next to no young Scottish scrum halfs coming through.

I'd say most other positions have relative strength in depth, with back row and stand off (hooray!) being the most strong for the future.

p.s. - I agree on Lee Jones, absolutely electric pace!

whocares wrote:With a bit more luck against argentina... who knows ... scotland could still be in the RWC. they for sure have talented backs and solid forwards so they could cause problems to any NH teams provided they score tries on regular basis.

Here lies the problem.

Russia are as good as NZ provided every player improves a lot.

viewtothegym wrote:After that world cup and pretty much zero depth to come through for a pretty old team i see nothing but heart ache for Scottish rugby,
Italy are ahead of them on player development and look set to over take Scotland in the next two seasons.

Wales and Ireland are looking good with young talented players coming through and of course France and England never will drop out of the world top eight due to depth and pedigree.

With Scotland's woes add Andy Robinsons negative and out dated playing style on penalty, drop goal ,kick chase and wait for mistake these younger fitter and far more skilful other home nation teams are going to punish Scotland.

What do you guys reckon?
I personally would hate to be proven right in a few years time because i have always had a soft spot for Scotland but one can't help but think the writing is on the wall.

What do we reckon?

Well firstly you are the original "door knocker and run" merchant ain't you?........ load the bullets and run

Secondly perhaps a bit more meat on the bone laddy, especially on your vast knowledge of the young player development of us and Italy.................. tell us all the facts.

We are quite happy with AR thanks mate, worry on the fact that WG was forced into playing some youngsters towards the end last of season otherwise you would have had Henson, Hook, Byrne, Jon Thomas, etc etc in the starting lineup, and all flying home after the qualifiers.

We have had a disappointing WC and have also a poor start to the season at club level, but recent results have given us a boost, we have quite a decent few youngsters coming through however and with Visser coming on board , I am not unduely worried about our visit to Cardiff next spring.

RDW, as far as 2nd row and scrum half are concerned, I think Ryder and Pyrgos are doing well at Glasgow. Both could strengthen the Scotland squad in the future if they continue to develop.

Scotland look set for the wooden spoon in the 2012 six nations

Scotland need a real classy 12 (a john Leslie)...who can make things happen.

Creativity = zero at the moment.

21st Century Schizoid Man wrote:Alyn,

because Robinson, picks on reputation and not, contrary to what he claims, on form. Therefore guys like Lee Jones , Greg Laidlaw, Stuart Hogg do not get a look in.

Agree about Lee Jones and Laidlaw, but surely you can't have a go for not picking Stuart Hogg! Are you telling me that you rate Hogg as a better Full Back than Mossy and R Lamont?

Hogg does have bags of potential and he has been the highlight of the start of Glasgows season for me, but he needs to show form over 6 Months not 6 games.

Manky-Flanker wrote:RDW, as far as 2nd row and scrum half are concerned, I think Ryder and Pyrgos are doing well at Glasgow. Both could strengthen the Scotland squad in the future if they continue to develop.

Ryder has improved greatly since signing last season, not sure about Pyrgos to be honest. He is still young but has been unable to replace Colin Gregor at Nine for Glasgow, despite having almost a year to establish himself, which must be a worry.

From a Glasgow point of view Murray McConnell is a big hope at Scrum Half, still in his late teens (I think) and If he can stay clear of injuries will get a full time contract next year and a chance to start, as I can see Cusiter leaving at the end of the season.

It would also have been very odd to have picked Lee Jones for the World Cup. At the time that would not have been a form pick.

Laidlaw was extremely unlucky and should have gone. Can't think of anyone else though, hardly an outrageous selection. He gave Harley and Denton every chance to prove themselves in the camp, and ultimately I think he made the right call taking Strokosch (who was on better form that Harley come the end of the season) and Vernon (who proved himself a shrewd pick in the end).

Can't see Pyrgos getting much game time when Cusiter returns. He looks pretty average from what I've seen (which is admittedly limited highlights).

The original premise of the post was wrong though. Scotland at the World Cup was actually a pretty young team, with all but two or three unlikely to be available for the next WC.

Are you nicking Ryder then? I though he was just on loan from Sarries.

EDIT: Just looked and he has Scotland A caps

He ended up signing a permanent contract, Thunor

Good for him. He looked alright at Sarries but probably wasn't going to get much game time. Nevermind, they replaced him with another English player, Mouritz Botha

HammerofThunor wrote:Are you nicking Ryder then? I though he was just on loan from Sarries.

EDIT: Just looked and he has Scotland A caps

Ryder joined on loan for the first part of the season, but signed a permanent deal at the start of 2011.

He IS English. Got a cap to prove it. EDIT: Botha

NB Before Beshocked kicks off, no problem whatsoever with him representing England

On to Scotland. The problem STILL seems to be the tries. Is centre the issue (the same with us)? I remember a quote along the lines of "you know you've got good centres when your wings get loads of tries". Seem to have a few decent prospects at 13 but what about 12?

HammerofThunor wrote:He IS English. Got a cap to prove it. EDIT: Botha

NB Before Beshocked kicks off, no problem whatsoever with him representing England

On to Scotland. The problem STILL seems to be the tries. Is centre the issue (the same with us)? I remember a quote along the lines of "you know you've got good centres when your wings get loads of tries". Seem to have a few decent prospects at 13 but what about 12?

Yup, 10-12 is the problem, leading to v poor try-scoring record - Jackson seems to be part of the solution, but still looking for a 12 (any English 12s with Scots grannies? Hape, nah, no thanks!! )

Sean Maitland (Crusaders) is partly Scottish. Imagine if the SRU could tempt him to journey north.

To be fair, Tom Ryder is English really. His dad is Scottish but he played for Newark RUFC (in the same team as me :-)) and represented England at U16 and U18, including captaining England U18s at 16 years old. Fair play to him though, if England aren't interested he can play for Scotland!

Manky-Flanker wrote:Sean Maitland (Crusaders) is partly Scottish. Imagine if the SRU could tempt him to journey north.

Jeebus, the lad's got some pedigree: (from wiki) "Sean Maitland was born in Tokoroa, New Zealand on 14 September 1988. Sean attended Hamilton Boys' High School where he played in the first XV and competed in athletics, recording a personal best of 11.29 and 22.30 seconds for the 100m and 200m respectively, and threw the discus 45.47m. Sean is half Scottish and is of Maori and Samoan descent from his mothers side. He is the cousin of New Zealand born, Australian Rugby Union Player Quade Cooper. On his maternal grandfather's side, Sean is also closely related to 'Smoking Joe' Stanley of New Zealand All Black fame in the mid 1980s–1990."

Tom Ryder has made an excellent start to the season in the Rado for the Warriors after 6 games. Kellock and Gray will be pushed to move him.

He's played 41 games of super 15 rugby with the crusaders and scored 20 tries - wouldn't be a bad addition to an otherwise try starved Scotland back line

Expect it won't be long before he gets his first cap for NZ

We need to kidnap this Maitland fellow - end of story.

Great to see Glasgow have some depth at lock. Now, if they can fix the front row they'll be a decent side.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Manky-Flanker wrote:Sean Maitland (Crusaders) is partly Scottish. Imagine if the SRU could tempt him to journey north.

Jeebus, the lad's got some pedigree: (from wiki) "Sean Maitland was born in Tokoroa, New Zealand on 14 September 1988. Sean attended Hamilton Boys' High School where he played in the first XV and competed in athletics, recording a personal best of 11.29 and 22.30 seconds for the 100m and 200m respectively, and threw the discus 45.47m. Sean is half Scottish and is of Maori and Samoan descent from his mothers side. He is the cousin of New Zealand born, Australian Rugby Union Player Quade Cooper. On his maternal grandfather's side, Sean is also closely related to 'Smoking Joe' Stanley of New Zealand All Black fame in the mid 1980s–1990."

SchlongAs - don't depress me with this.

Patrick Lambie's dad is Scottish too as are most of his more distant relatives.

Can you imagine Maitland standing out on the wing at Murrayfield with Parks at 10 and Morrison at 12 - there'd be tears in his eyes!!

Its good to see that Morrison is the new scapegoat for Scotland. It was Parks for years and its now Morrison.

Would I have him in the squad, no. But Scotland did not look anymore likely to Score tries without him in the recent 6 Nations than they did with him. Against England we were clueless in attack and Morrison was in the stand, so can't be blamed for that.

Is Morrison a problem when it comes to us not scoring tries, yes. Is the the only problem, far from it.

DM - agreed. Lamont is a better 12 because he's a more powerful and more dynamic runner, but he lands the same score as Morrison in my book as a creative force (0.5 out of 10).

It's not just 12 either, it's a whole alignment of the backs. Whereas Ireland and Wales are able to launch their power runners at pace into the opposition back line, we seem to provide them with the ball 10 metres behind the advantage line, somewhere behind their ears at a standing start. When the rush defence is good, Ireland use a wrap around and bring their 15 into the line with the blindside winger as a second wave, looking for dog legs and exploiting them. We (and St. Jackson is as guilty as any here) just ship the ball sideways regardless to hapless targets like De Luca, so he can get man and ball (then fans blame him for not miraculously evading the challenges).

It goes beyond the lack of creative talent available (which is a problem) to the coaching. I think the coaching has been far too simplistic for international level. Other sides have had strategies and moves that go far beyond the simple crash ball or ship it wide tactics we've deployed. Yes, sometimes you can overcomplicate things, but I certainly wouldn't level that criticism towards Townsend and co.

Manky - how the hell did you find that out about Maitland? Maybe if the whole of New Zealand continues to wind his cousin up, he might be open to a lucrative swap?

In terms of the original 'knock a door run' post, I'm worried about the future of Scottish rugby, but not in the immediate future. My fear is what happens in the next 15 years, not 15 minutes.

Does anyone think John Leslie might be tempted into coaching the backs for a bit?

Also wondered whether anyone thinks Sean Lamont should leave the Scarlets as J Davies, S Williams look like the first choices at centre.

I think Visser will take Sean's place on the wing next season unless he switches to 12 permanently. The other wing is Max's unless he gets banged up.

You are right, I doubt even if we had two creative runners at 12 and 13 (I quite rate Ansbro and would keep him) we would creat anything, simply because the delivery from 9 to 10 and then 10 to 12 is so slow and inconssistant - that is the first area we need to improve!

When Visser qualifies we may actually be able to field Visser (11), Jones (14) and Evans (back at 13) in the same backline, perhaps with Cuthbert or Thompson at 15. Then you'd be talking serious wheels.

But I don't see the outside backs as a problem, not in the short or long term.

As for Sean Lamont leaving the Scarlets, I think he'll still be used. Would be great if he went back to Glasgow though.

Robinson, stand off and centres are the real problems.

I like the look of both Weir and Laidlaw - so they might be there for the future - and better selection could have given us Lamont and ansbro in the centres which would have been better.

We need a better coach tho.

But Lamont and Ansbro were the centres in the last match against England (as well as against Romania), and in the 6 Nations.

Lamont came into centre in the 6N because we had no other options. He's a powerful runner but like Morrison, doesn't bring the 13 into the game enough. Lamont and Ansbro isn't the answer.

I doubt Lamont will leave the Scarlets. I'm pretty sure he's played on the wing so having Davies and Williams at centre shouldn't be a problem.

Tom Ryder has switched allegiance to Scotland and has been capped at A level. It's only a matter of time before he gets a full cap. I wouldn't be surprised if he was included in the 6N squad.

I seriously doubt we'd be able to get Maitland to come and play for Scotland. Although there are a few pretty damn good players infront of him at wing and fullback for the ABs. You never know though, maybe a lucrative offer from a French club could end up bringing him up here. Does anyone know his dad. If we get on him maybe he can convince his son to play for Scotland.

15. Thompson
14. Jones
11. Visser
13. Max
12. Ansbro
10. Jackson
9. Laidlaw

Why couldn't this happen?

No, seriously.

I do think its time to move Max Evans back to 13. He is not in the game enough on the wing and he played almost all his best Rugby at Glasgow at 13.

GC and DM - agreed.

My only quibble with the selection above is whether Ansbro is cut out to play 12, as I've never seen him play there before. Not sure his distribution or creative skills are any better than Sean Lamont or Graeme Morrison.

Until someone like Grove, Scott, Leonard, Weir or Jackson gets time at 12 and is able to demonstrate at club level that they can play there and play well, then personally I think Sean Lamont is our best bet, despite his flaws.

Ansbro is at Irish now with the mighty inside centre legend that is Shontayne Hape. Can't see him getting a look in..........

Dorothy_Mantooth wrote:I do think its time to move Max Evans back to 13. He is not in the game enough on the wing and he played almost all his best Rugby at Glasgow at 13.

He's playing wing at Castres, Dot

funnyExiledScot wrote:GC and DM - agreed.

My only quibble with the selection above is whether Ansbro is cut out to play 12, as I've never seen him play there before. Not sure his distribution or creative skills are any better than Sean Lamont or Graeme Morrison.

Until someone like Grove, Scott, Leonard, Weir or Jackson gets time at 12 and is able to demonstrate at club level that they can play there and play well, then personally I think Sean Lamont is our best bet, despite his flaws.

Ansbro is at Irish now with the mighty inside centre legend that is Shontayne Hape. Can't see him getting a look in..........

fES, can't agree with you there buddy, sorry - we all recognise that try scoring is a major problem for us and I stand by the view that this stems from weaknesses in distribution at 10 & 12, most obvious when we've had Parks + Morrison or Schlong - time to gamble now, 4 years out from the next RWC
PS Looking forward to a fiesty rebuttal!!

Who do you suppose that Scotland gamble on from that list?

Grove - plays 13, tried by Scotland at 12 before, not a success. Currently playing ok at 13 for Worcester, nothing earth shattering.

Scott - only professional rugby thus far has been at 13, albeit with some success. If he continues to play as well, then I think he's a contender for the Scotland squad. Hopefully when NDL returns, he'll play 12 to NDL's 13.

Leonard - still a young amateur player. Playing for Edinburgh would be a big step.

Weir - a stand-off in each game I've ever seen him play, plus his distribution skills so far this season have been inconsistent at best.

Jackson - personally I think he has the skill set to play 12, but he's never played there. Probably the safest gamble of the lot given his demonstrated ability to cope with pressure at international level, but don't tell me you wouldn't prefer to see him there in a Glasgow jersey before a Scotland jersey. Also begs the next question, who will play 10 if Jackson plays 12?


Probably not as fiesty a rebuttal as you were expecting, but I still wouldn't play someone at 12 without him having played there at club level. Look at what happened to Toby Flood at the WC when picked at 12, a player with far greater abilities than any player we can call upon.

For me, Jackson and Scott would be the two to look at closely, but I'd still insist they play at least a couple of games at club level to prove themselves before I shelve Sean Lamont (who let's no forget has made a pretty decent fist of it at 12).