The End of Relegation and Promotion?

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Post by The Special Juan on Mon 17 Oct 2011, 2:05 pm

"Several foreign-owned Premier League clubs want to scrap relegation, according to League Managers Association (LMA) chief Richard Bevan.

Bevan fears that if more clubs are sold to foreigner investors they may have enough votes to force changes.

But the Premier League said relegation and promotion were part of its rules and added to league's strength.

Bevan hopes that a parliamentary inquiry into football goverance would also help prevent the proposal.

"We're very keen that the report is successful in helping the Football Association introduce a licensing programme for clubs," he said.

"Because there are a number of overseas-owned clubs already talking about bringing about the avoidance of promotion and relegation in the Premier League.

"If we have four or five more new owners, that could happen."

Nearly half of the Premier League's 20 clubs are under foreign ownership, with rules stipulating that if changes are to be made to the format, 14 clubs must vote in favour of any new reforms.

Blackburn joined the likes of Manchester United, Manchester City, Liverpool and Chelsea in this class when they were taken over by Indian-owned Venky's Group last season.

But the Premier League told BBC Sport that the move would be a non-starter, with the Football Association retaining the power to veto any proposals.

A Premier League spokesman also said that they did not recognise LMA chief executive Bevan's claims, which come a week after the government demanded changes to the way that football is run.

Sports minister Hugh Robertson said that an FA-led licensing system would be brought in to safeguard against issues such as financial mismanagement, asset-stripping owners and tax avoidance.

The government also asked for rules to manage club debts and an overhaul of the FA board.

Last Wednesday, Liverpool's managing director Ian Ayre also said the Premier League's overseas television revenues should be skewed in favour of big clubs.

PREMIER LEAGUE FOREIGN OWNERS

* Aston Villa (Randy Lerner)
* Blackburn (Venky's Group)
* Chelsea (Roman Abramovich)
* Fulham (Mohamed Al Fayed)
* Liverpool (Fenway Sports Group)
* Manchester United (Glazer family)
* Manchester City (Sheikh Mansour)
* Sunderland (Ellis Short)
* QPR (Tony Fernandes)
* *Arsenal's Stan Kroenke is a majority shareholder"
source:bbcsport.co.uk

Possibly the most ridiculous thing I have read this year...

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Post by sodhat on Mon 17 Oct 2011, 2:26 pm

The escalation of money hungry clubs looking out for themselves. I'm not surprised, they want to form a sort of franchise based league with the same teams each year and potentially more money in from TV etc.

It's ridiculous, but I can see breakaway leagues soon enough if they continue to chase this line down.

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Post by Guest on Mon 17 Oct 2011, 4:22 pm

As the article says, it's a no-go. Plus, I can only see Poopie teams wanting to bring this in so they don't drop revenue. Teams like Manchester Utd, Man City, Arsenal, Liverpool and Chelsea probably won't be too involved because most respect the history of the game and wouldn't really be affected by this. If anything it would make it harder for them to remain as powerful.

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Post by Alessandro Ciambella on Thu 20 Oct 2011, 8:15 pm

I believe this idea is an excellent idea. We already have the 20 most powerful teams in the Premier League. If they were not the best then they would not e there.

The teams at the top would have garanteed income for years to come and with great investment we would see more teams winning the league as the fear of failure will be eradicated. No more trips to anfield from WBA playing for a nil nil.

Who cares about teams coming up from the championship. We should follow the super league example. Plus I believe this would really improve our national team!
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Post by Guest on Thu 20 Oct 2011, 8:27 pm

So what about some of the great teams from English history like Leeds, Southampton, West Ham and Nottingham Forest.

If this crazy idea was to go ahead it would be just so teams could boost their own income, therefore teams like Leeds and Southampton would be far more appealing than teams like Wigan. Whilst cutting off relegation might mean more challenging at the top, it would also mean awful teams would stay in the league and not be punished.

Following the Super League would only lead us back to one of the worst ideas that's been suggested in the past 10 years- the 39th game. If I'm right, Super League teams play one game at a neutral venue each game. They also have the crazy notion that the best team over the entire season gets a shield, whereas the actual Champion could be a team that finishes 8th.

Please explain how you think this would 'really improve' our national team?

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Post by Corporalhumblebucket on Thu 20 Oct 2011, 9:53 pm

The idea of abolishing relegation should itself be relegated Erm

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Post by Kay Fabe on Thu 20 Oct 2011, 11:15 pm

Alessandro Ciambella wrote:I believe this idea is an excellent idea. We already have the 20 most powerful teams in the Premier League. If they were not the best then they would not e there.

The teams at the top would have garanteed income for years to come and with great investment we would see more teams winning the league as the fear of failure will be eradicated. No more trips to anfield from WBA playing for a nil nil.

Who cares about teams coming up from the championship. We should follow the super league example. Plus I believe this would really improve our national team!
You're a moron, I was going to go into a massive post explaining why, but no-one needs to read the obvious

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Post by hodge on Fri 21 Oct 2011, 12:31 am

the-gaffer wrote:
Alessandro Ciambella wrote:I believe this idea is an excellent idea. We already have the 20 most powerful teams in the Premier League. If they were not the best then they would not e there.

The teams at the top would have garanteed income for years to come and with great investment we would see more teams winning the league as the fear of failure will be eradicated. No more trips to anfield from WBA playing for a nil nil.

Who cares about teams coming up from the championship. We should follow the super league example. Plus I believe this would really improve our national team!
You're a moron, I was going to go into a massive post explaining why, but no-one needs to read the obvious

agreed, so let me do it for the hell of it being a lower league fan.....actually i started doing so and then couldnt be bothered because the origional statement was so stupid.

All I will say is, you say the best 20 teams are in the league are in the premier league where did Norwich, Swansea, QPR all come from and in previous years, Burnley, Blackpool, Reading all gave the premier league good seasons to remember and the idea of there being no promotion/relegation is rediculous.

I like the attitude of Dave Whealen, said if the idea was introduced he would pull Wigan from the premier league

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Post by Alessandro Ciambella on Fri 21 Oct 2011, 1:39 pm

Right here and right now the best 20 teams are in the premier league. Nobody is bothered if it's not Leeds or Forest or Notts County in the top tier of English football except the fans of their respected teams.

Who cares what they have won before. It's where you are now that counts. If you won a European Cup in the 80s then that seriously can't justify a slot in the premier league. I can't believe some tiny minds are living in the past that far away to justify being in the Premier League.

If Leeds were a big club then they would of returned back to the Prem by now. It's been years since they were there and ask yourself this. Have they really been missed?


Non relegation would be fantastic for teams like Everton and Wigan and Villa who could really invest their garanteed millions into the club and youth for the future without fear of failure. All teams could start a belt of English talent coming through the ranks and loan them to the Championship to gain experience in a tougher more physical league. This would add to their skill set from a permanent prem club.

No relegation as I have said would make our top teams richer and able to get the marquee signings of old. Plus matches would be more exciting because there is nothing to loose any more and everything to win.

Most important of all the FA cup and League cup would become a very prestigious event again as the little clubs get to rub shoulders with the permanent big boys.

It will be the biggest win for English football since 1966.
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Post by The Special Juan on Fri 21 Oct 2011, 2:23 pm

Would you have all the top leagues in Europe the same with no relegation or promotion?
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Post by Alessandro Ciambella on Fri 21 Oct 2011, 3:07 pm

Doing this across Europe would be excellent.

It stops teams in lower leagues destroying themselves trying to reach the golden carrot of the Premier League. This occurs here and across Europe. We need out teams to survive. We need to accept that teams like Rochdale will never reach the Premier League. As a fan of a lower league team myself I emplore the Premier League and other European leagues to take such action. I would rather watch my team in League 1 than not at all.

The terrible thing with relegation from the Premier League is the parachute payment. This gives relegated teams masses of money and if used correctly a yo yo passport back the the Premier League. Very unfair on Championship teams I am sure you will all agree.

Not having this unfair payment would free money for more academies across the country.

In theory England could be the bench mark for all of Europe.
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Post by Dass on Fri 21 Oct 2011, 3:52 pm

Alessandro Ciambella wrote:Doing this across Europe would be excellent.

It stops teams in lower leagues destroying themselves trying to reach the golden carrot of the Premier League. This occurs here and across Europe. We need out teams to survive. We need to accept that teams like Rochdale will never reach the Premier League. As a fan of a lower league team myself I emplore the Premier League and other European leagues to take such action. I would rather watch my team in League 1 than not at all.

The terrible thing with relegation from the Premier League is the parachute payment. This gives relegated teams masses of money and if used correctly a yo yo passport back the the Premier League. Very unfair on Championship teams I am sure you will all agree.

Not having this unfair payment would free money for more academies across the country.

In theory England could be the bench mark for all of Europe.

Since the 1999/2000 relegation from the Premier League of Wimbledon, Sheff Wed & Watford there has been a total of 33 relegations that have happened, of those only 7 have managed to go straight back up. The last change to the parachute payment structure was made for the start of the 2006/2007 season there has been 15 relegations and only 4 teams bouncing straight back up. There's nothing to suggest the parachute money helps in any way to improve a teams chance of going straight back up, all it really does is give some of the clubs who may have over spent trying to stay in the Premier a structured financial step down into Championship football.

There's nothing to say teams like Rochdale will ever make the Premier League there's been countless teams who have looked like they would never reach the top league only to do so, Birmingham City and Wigan are two straight of the top of my head.

Personally for me the most exciting part of any Premiership season nearly always boils down to the relegation scrap and as a result the final day of the Championship campaign as often it not only goes down to the final game but often the final 10mins.

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Post by Alessandro Ciambella on Fri 21 Oct 2011, 4:34 pm

Interesting statistic. I wonder how many of those 33 teams were promoted within 3 seasons?

Yes, your quite right. The parachute payment was introduced for teams that over spend. Why on earth are we rewarding teams living out of their means? There should be financial reward from the authorities towards correctly run clubs.

Relegation from the Prem has ruined Leeds, Southampton and Pirtsmouth to name a few who over spent in a way where they became dependant on the cash for being there instead of developing cash from other sources.

Fixed teams in the Prem stops this and allows expansion of England's strongest clubs.

If the Premiership does not do this, I would not be surprised if a European League starts with 20 franchise places up for grabs with no relegation. European elite clubs will disappear from the national game for ever thus devaluing the national game and more teams will go bust.
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Post by Guest on Fri 21 Oct 2011, 4:47 pm

Surely if the Premier League becomes exclusive then the Championship becomes the league where other teams will splash out to try and succeed in. The huge fun of the Championship is because it has 24 teams and you know at least 3 of those will be getting a fantastic prize at the end of it. With no top 6 for playoffs or any extra incentive for a top 4 place it just becomes a congested league with a lot of mid-table sides.

If the Premier League changed then the TV deals would probably change as wel. No offence to teams like Wigan and Blackburn, but no neutral is going to watch that match if neither team is fighting for something. The threat of relegation often pushes teams further to putting on some great performances.

You've also got to be kidding if you think that if this was to be brought in then the League wouldn't be reshuffled. The entire reasoning behind this is purely financial and by inviting bigger teams who often bring in bigger crowds will end up creating more revenue. West Ham, Derby, Forest, Southampton, Leeds, Leicester and Cardiff all have attendances over 22k this season- with a lot more room for fans. This is more than QPR, Swansea and Wigan. Infact, 3 Champions teams have higher average attendances than Fulham, West Brom, Blackburn, Bolton and Wolves. This usually means the Championship teams would bring in more revenue as they have the added bonus of not playing big teams at the moment.

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Post by Dass on Fri 21 Oct 2011, 4:54 pm

I can see what your saying regarding allowing clubs to say solvent due to no fear of relegation thus meaning they can work within their means. The problem is you lose a large part of what makes football a great sport and turn it even further into a business than it already is by doing this. The sport is in many ways driven by the stories of teams achieving promotion and the journey the fans take.

A possible solution, something that's already in place in the lower leagues, to the problem of clubs over spending is put a cap on wages in proportion to revenue. Then you also have the incoming rules to answer these problems with the transfer restrictions and English player mandate which is a better solution than just scrapping relegation in my eyes.

As for the 3 season statistics I'm only able to take into account 27 relegations as the last 6 relegations enough time hasn't passed to confirm the figures yet. Those 27 I was able to find figures for shows that 7 managed to get back up within 3 seasons, again the figures don't really support the fact the money helping teams getting straight back up.


Last edited by Dass on Fri 21 Oct 2011, 4:56 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by hodge on Fri 21 Oct 2011, 4:55 pm

The parachute payments are there to help teams adjust to the difference in money they recieve in the championship, doing so means they dont have to sell all their best players and slash wages over 1 summer, it gives them a chance for slow change.

So if you froze the premier league teams as they are this year, championship teams include West Ham, Birmingham, Leicester (money injection), Forest all of who probably are bigger clubs than Swansea, QPR and Norwich. Promotion/relegation is crucial to football in england. Look at the clubs like Stoke and Wigan, rose through the leagues and Stoke are now playing in europe.

You say teams like Everton and Villa would benefit from non relegation? They're not at risk of relegation.

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Post by AlexHuckerby on Sun 23 Oct 2011, 5:03 pm

Alessandro Ciambella wrote:I believe this idea is an excellent idea. We already have the 20 most powerful teams in the Premier League. If they were not the best then they would not e there.

The teams at the top would have garanteed income for years to come and with great investment we would see more teams winning the league as the fear of failure will be eradicated. No more trips to anfield from WBA playing for a nil nil.

Who cares about teams coming up from the championship. We should follow the super league example. Plus I believe this would really improve our national team!

A few years ago Man City were leagues below!!! look at them now, it's stupid and makes it seem pointless vying for a high placed finish in the championship.

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Post by A Fine Folk. on Mon 31 Oct 2011, 5:23 pm

Haha this is a joke, seriously Football would be nothing without em'.

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Post by kemet on Mon 31 Oct 2011, 10:58 pm

This would be a bad move. Part of what makes the Premier League and all football leagues compelling is the fact that league status is not a given, so that teams have to justify their Premier League places year in and year out, from giants such as Manchester United to teams such as Blackburn.

I would seriously consider devoting my sport viewing time to another sport if this were to happen.

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Post by AlexHuckerby on Wed 02 Nov 2011, 1:32 am

wheres the real important bottom of the league clashes going to come from?

am i by myself in thinking that survival sunday was one of the best ends to the season in terms of relegation dogfights!

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