Was Lewis v McCall 1 stopped prematurely?

Early stoppages have become quite topical these days, with there being a large number of seemingly premature stoppages occuring lately in Britain and elsewhere. On the Lewis v Foreman thread the McCall stoppage was mentioned in passing and I was wondering in light of recent early stoppages whether people think that one could have maybe continued. Lewis definately looked hurt and wobbly, but the argument is his survival instincts could have taken over to ride out the storm and that the champion in his own yard should be afforded the benefit of the doubt. On the other hand, we have seen recent knock outs such as the Maccarinelli one highlighting the potential for disaster if those survival instincts are found wanting. What do people think? Was the first Lewis v McCall bout stopped prematurely?

yes will say why when im at work in 10

I voted yes, on balance, but it is a tough one to call. I can see both sides of the argument, and the way he staggered again into the ref immediately after he waved it off is compelling evidence that the stoppage was correct. But, I think he could have been given a few seconds to recover and at least attempt to grab hold and spoil. The ref was clearly worried about Lewis, so maybe he could have given a just a sniff of a chance to recover and been ready in split second to jump in again.

I appreciate that it could only take one punch to seriously hurt someone, but if every fight is judged like this, we would see an awful lot of premature stoppages. As I said, I find it a difficult one to call but if pushed, I would say he should have been given a chance.

Personally I think it was stopped early, yes Lewis was most certainly rocked, however I've seen fighters in worse shape allowed to continue and in truth I think Lewis would have been able to grab hold and been able to survive a few more seconds he would have been able to recover.

But as Tino says I can see it from the refs point of view he was slightly wobbly, but how many times was Julius Francis allowed to get up against Tyson?! (incidentally little back story on that fight, apparently the Daily Mirror sponsored Julius Francis for that fight and they wanted there logo on the soles of his shoes!! Not a good sign Julius!!) It's a World Title fight and unless they're CLEARLY in no fit state to continue they're allowed the benefit of the doubt.

I truly believe that the Lewis v McCall stoppage is questioned only because of our perception of McCall.

He was a rank outsider and Lewis was expected to beat him easily. Had it been Tyson who had dropped Lewis in such manner, leaving Lennox stumbling on jelly legs even after the referee wrapped his arms around him, I doubt that anybody would question the stoppage. I also doubt that, had Lewis dropped McCall in such fashion, there would have been any complaints. Granted, Lewis was defending champion but, like it or not, he was in desperate trouble and his welfare was of utmost importance.

HumanWindmill wrote:I truly believe that the Lewis v McCall stoppage is questioned only because of our perception of McCall.

He was a rank outsider and Lewis was expected to beat him easily. Had it been Tyson who had dropped Lewis in such manner, leaving Lennox stumbling on jelly legs even after the referee wrapped his arms around him, I doubt that anybody would question the stoppage. I also doubt that, had Lewis dropped McCall in such fashion, there would have been any complaints. Granted, Lewis was defending champion but, like it or not, he was in desperate trouble and his welfare was of utmost importance.

'Tis a fair comment, however due to the fact it is McCall we have actually taken more notice of it, and I would still have to say I reckon he could have fought on.

HumanWindmill wrote:I truly believe that the Lewis v McCall stoppage is questioned only because of our perception of McCall.

He was a rank outsider and Lewis was expected to beat him easily. Had it been Tyson who had dropped Lewis in such manner, leaving Lennox stumbling on jelly legs even after the referee wrapped his arms around him, I doubt that anybody would question the stoppage. I also doubt that, had Lewis dropped McCall in such fashion, there would have been any complaints. Granted, Lewis was defending champion but, like it or not, he was in desperate trouble and his welfare was of utmost importance.

I wouldn't necessarily agree with this. I would like to think I am able to make a decision based on what Lewis was doing, rather than who was in the opposite corner. It all comes down to how badly hurt we think he was. I think Lewis was badly shaken up, but 'desperate trouble' is open to debate. Yes he staggered back into the ref, but he also had enough survival instinct to pull his hands up close to his chin to try and convince the ref he was ok. To what degree does that suggest he had enough mental capacity left to at least try and get out of trouble. The legs may well have gone, but he was clearly hanging on to some mental faculties. That is enough to tip the balance towards a yes for me.

I just think their have been too many examples in championship fights where a guy has been unsteady and gone on to win.

Wladimir against Peter is a prime example. He was in a much worse state than Lewis imo.

When defending a world title the champion (and challenger) needs to be given their chance to defend their title (or challenge for it). Of course it is subjective and the referee must make a quick decision.

That said, I believe in this instance, he was a bit too quick. Sure, it could have led to a couple of further knockdowns but Lewis was in no worse a position than Michael Grant was when Lewis pole-axed him for the first time, or when Wlad was first floored by Corrie Sanders. Both were given the option of getting up ands continuing.

Of course I could jump on the conspiracy bandwagon and say the ref was in King's pocket but I don't believe this was the case. Close call, could Lewis have survived? I will have to watch it again. I'm still saying he stepped in too soon, but only just.

I think yes the fight was stopped too early

Lewis was slighty dazed but iv seen much worse

Added to the fact he was undefeated heavyweight champion of the world the ref should of given some benefit in a fight as big as that

Its a double edged sword for me.

Many now argue that the stoppage was premature and Lewis would weathered the storm but had the referee let the fight continue and had Lewis got badly KO'd shortly afterwards, many would question why the referee didnt stop the fight after the first knockdown.
I tend to believe that the latter scenario (Lewis getting KO'd) would have been more likely than the former (Lewis surviving) and therefore think that the stoppage was correct.

For me, Lewis looked dazed, his eyes had lost focus and he was swaying from side to side.

No

rowley wrote:No

You've made a believer out of me.

rowley wrote:No

Any chance you could give a straight answer for once

rowley wrote:No

This is why I love boxing...

ShahenshahG wrote:

rowley wrote:No

Any chance you could give a straight answer for once

He is only guessing anyway. It was in 1994, not 1924.

No it wasn't. Lewis could barely stand up was staggering all over the place and hand his hands held up in a weird goofy manner. He was totally gone and would have been clean knocked out by the next punch McCall threw.

He couldn't even stand still let alone move away from danger and protect himself.

fearlessBamber wrote:No it wasn't. Lewis could barely stand up was staggering all over the place and hand his hands held up in a weird goofy manner. He was totally gone and would have been clean knocked out by the next punch McCall threw.

He couldn't even stand still let alone move away from danger and protect himself.

Lewis was in no worse condition than Khan when he got staggered against Maidana IMO. I appreciate why the ref stopped it but I still think i was too early

Steffan wrote:

fearlessBamber wrote:No it wasn't. Lewis could barely stand up was staggering all over the place and hand his hands held up in a weird goofy manner. He was totally gone and would have been clean knocked out by the next punch McCall threw.

He couldn't even stand still let alone move away from danger and protect himself.

Lewis was in no worse condition than Khan when he got staggered against Maidana IMO. I appreciate why the ref stopped it but I still think i was too early

You're only saying that 'cos Lewis is Welsh :P

[quote="fearlessBamber"]

Steffan wrote:You're only saying that 'cos Lewis is Welsh :P

Yeah he is from the Canadian part

Abermontreal

I think that if this fight was early in his career, it would have been stopped, so the correct decision was made. If the ref didnt stop it, and McCall landed some serioudly damaging blows he would have that hanging over him. His job is ultimately to protect the fighters and in this instance he was doing it. Personally I would rather see a fight stopped a little early rather than seeing somebody unable to defend themselves beng beaten senseless. Rather comeback another day and go again.

Thing is the ref did stop it a touch early but if anything it made Lewis a better fighter. He ditched Correa and got himself Steward, the very man who had plotted his downfall. He was less careless and certainly a more humble fighter, knowing that a single punch could end it all. His next fight (up until Rahman anyway) showed what a dominant force he became.

Absolutely not. Lewis was all over the place
Fighters safety is paramount and those heavies generate real power(Well most!)

Well just to put a different spin on it - do people think Lewis was in worse shape than Holmes was when Shavers (a much heavier hitter) floored him in their bout? Would the referee have been justified in stopping that fight or do people think its just one that could go either way depending on the ref?

That's a very valid point in my opinion, manos.

However, I know it shouldn't make a difference but, referees being human, it probably does make a difference, that Lewis was pole axed a mere half a minute into the round. Holmes went down with twenty seconds to go to the bell.

Larry's escape was miraculous - he was even firing back, come the bell - but I very much doubt he would have survived another couple of minutes and I don't believe that Lewis would have, either.

HumanWindmill wrote:That's a very valid point in my opinion, manos.

However, I know it shouldn't make a difference but, referees being human, it probably does make a difference, that Lewis was pole axed a mere half a minute into the round. Holmes went down with twenty seconds to go to the bell.

Larry's escape was miraculous - he was even firing back, come the bell - but I very much doubt he would have survived another couple of minutes and I don't believe that Lewis would have, either.

I think you are probably right with that. For me there are two issues. The first is whether or not Lewis deserved the opportunity to continue having beat the count. And following on and connected to that is whether or not Lewis would have survived.

One could point to the Holmes fight as an example of a fighter getting the benefit of the doubt and surviving to win. But as you say the clock was on Larrys side more than Lewis. The fight which I am reminded of is the final Holyfield v Bowe fight where Evander was knocked out after beng allowed continue. Its similar in many ways. Even the short had right hand that caught Holyfield was similar to the one McCall auht Lewis with. Holyfield beats the count but is clearly dazed and out of sorts. He doesnt even respond to Cortez instructions but is allowed continue anyway into an inneviteable KO, which luckily wasnt too severe. I think the same would have happened to Lewis. I dont think he had the Holmes power of recovery and with a fair bit of time left to survive I think he would have been stopped. Although I sympathize with the argument that champions in the past have been given the benefit of the doubt and gone on to win, I do think he was in danger and unlikely to survive so that is what sways it for me.

Going back to the Holyfield example, not much of it is mentioned these days as the KO after he was allowed to continue wasnt really tht bad. He kind of just staggered into Bowe and it became obvious he was out on his feet. A similar thing could have happened with Lewis hereby it may have become more obvious that he was unfit to continue had the ref allowed him to do so. But it probably wasnt worth the risk overall.

To expand on my previous point which was written when I was just on my way out of the office (apologies Manos) I do not think the stoppage was premature. Think people often consider it such because we can all point to examples where fighters have been allowed to continue in worse conditions, this by itself does not make it premature and obviously has to be balanced by the fact that for every fighter that has been allowed to continue in worse condition there are countless that have been stopped in far less peril, so swings and roundabouts for me on that one.

Also think there is a little revisionist history that has grown around this fight in that it was a flash knockdown and Lewis was up and absolutely fine, neither of which are particularly accurate. Will fall short of saying Lewis was gone but it was a heavy knockdown and as such was perhaps the kind that would see a guy stopped 8 out of 10, as such for me not too many complaints are justified.

Big Lewis fan but nothing wrong with the stoppage,Lewis's legs had gone.
I agree with skidd1 fighters safety is paramount and can't be compromised.

If Lewis had been allowed to continue and McCall walked in and knocked him clean out,the referee would have taken some almighty criticism for not stopping the fight.

manos de piedra wrote:What do people think? Was the first Lewis v McCall bout stopped prematurely?

No, not for me. Lewis may have been up at six / seven but he was still all over the place. I've seen fighters in a worse condition be allowed to carry on, but then again I've seen fighters nowhere near as badly shaken as that stopped many times as well. Whether or not Lewis would have survived a McCall onslaught is debable, though my personal opinion is that the referee saved him from being flattened conclusively.

Also, I've never really been too fond of this 'champion gets the benefit of the doubt' theory. A good referee, if he feels a fighter is hurt to the point where continuing will be a serious risk to their health, should stop the fight at that point, regardless of whether it's the champion or challenger who is in such dire straits. The referee had only a few seconds to decide whether or not Lewis was in a better state than the aforementioned, or if he would be like a lamb to the slaughter had the fight gone on. Given how heavy a knockdown it was and how unsteady Lewis was on his feet (you'll note that he even stumbled back again once the fight had been waved off), I think the referee was well within his rights to stop it.

Certainly didn't see anything wrong with it at the time - never understood this notion that a champion should somehow get the dice loaded in his favour with regard to all sorts of things - be they knockdowns, stoppages or the idea that a challenger has to win by 3-4 rounds, as if the guy holding the belt gets some subconscious 2 round start!!

Besides which, when the bell goes, surely the belt becomes vacant for the next 36 minutes?

Lennox was unsteady, incoherent and the sensible money would have to be on him being knocked into the front row had it been allowed to continue. There are of course some joke stoppages in boxing (Fury's last fight being one of them) but this was a spot on decision from the ref IMO.

Its a bit unfair comparing it to Holmes v Shavers
How Holmes got up that night I will never know .Quite staggering.Get up he did and it is the greatest recovery I have ever seen against arguably the biggest hitter in history.Thts the context.
Holmes seemed in better shape but I wouldn't have argued against that stoppage either

Lennox himself has commented on this one via Twitter.

@LennoxLewis:

@606v2boxing Ha...I respectfully disagree with 57% of your members.

Put it this way, if it hadn't been stopped this poll would be called 'Was Lewis v McCall 1 stopped early enough?' after Lewis got up and then was poleaxed with another howitzer.

Fists..cant get those links so how do you link in with Lennox via twitter..sorry crap at this stuff

Fists of Fury wrote:Lennox himself has commented on this one via Twitter.

@LennoxLewis:

@606v2boxing Ha...I respectfully disagree with 57% of your members.

Yikes - and I respectfully withdraw my previous comments.

I just send a tweet to Lennox informing him that 57% of us thought it was stopped correctly, and provided him with the link to this thread.

Looking at the big mans response, that figure may drop

Sorry Lennox it wasn't me who said it should be stopped,my erm wife made me write it. I think you would have won on points.

Fists of Fury wrote:Lennox himself has commented on this one via Twitter.

@LennoxLewis:

@606v2boxing Ha...I respectfully disagree with 57% of your members.

Ha, quality fists. I am in the 57%, but I have been threatened by onetwo, Lewis holds no fear for me.

To be fair most people advocaating the stoppage (me included) are doing so with safety and wellfare in mind. Boxers sometimes need protecting from themselves and their own willingness to continue.

I wish I had read all of this before saying 'no'. *gulp* Sorry Lennox!!

Honestly though mate, you were gone. That ref might have actually done you more favours than you thought at the time.

Easy to say from here though!!!

I think Lennox should have a look at the tape on YouTube, as he obviously can't remember what happened, which is probably a good indication that the stoppage was correct!

I've posted a 1000 times that this fight was a premature stoppage and the years just make the feelings stronger.

Non English speaking ref who should have let the Champion continue. Not saying it would have made a difference but this was for the Heavyweight title not some 4 rounder in Newport.

So, I voted Yes.

Good call by the ref. The count reached 9 and Lennox was still unsteady. He had his gloves up but his legs were spaghetti.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_jmFXl1sHh0

rowley wrote:

Fists of Fury wrote:Lennox himself has commented on this one via Twitter.

@LennoxLewis:

@606v2boxing Ha...I respectfully disagree with 57% of your members.

Ha, quality fists. I am in the 57%, but I have been threatened by onetwo, Lewis holds no fear for me.

I have been threatened by Southpaw and some idiot Rangers fan on 606.Lennox holds no fears for me
Signed
Oxring

He was out on his feet.....don't see how anyone could want this fight to continue...Did a truth williams after Tyson...came to life after the stoppage instead of giving the ref any sign before it..