Leinster: Young lads on fire (Irish chances??)

This is just a quick article on some of the young guys I have been most impressed with so far this season for Leinster who are IQ and should be in the Irish managements teams plans or should be a bigger part of those plans than they were before.

Cronin:
Didn't get to play much at the RWC but since he has come back for Leinster he has been doing well, one of the main points I'd like to make on the guy is that the source of most peoples worry (his throwing) has improved beyond recognition. He still is playing well in the loose be it in carrying or running support lines but his work in the tight has come up a notch. He is playing with a fire in his belly and is relishing the battle with Strauss it would seem. Also his error count is much lower than in previous seasons. Could do with improving his work in the srum and trying to create those mini mauls at times but huge improvements at the start of this season IMO.
Verdict: Not good enough to oust Best, but DK shouldn't be scared of getting him on the pitch.

Toner:
Bank of Ireland player of the month last month. Known for his great lineout work and how soft he is, he has really knuckled down this season. He has toughened up in the abscence of Hines and his work with ball in ahnd is much better as he doesn't go into contact so high, he also offloads and passes before contact more, we don't see him getting blown backwards anymore. He was always good on Leinster ball but he seems to have got better at stealing opposition ball now too which is a welcome addition and others in the camp say he has became something of a leader during the RWC. Needs to keep this work rate up and nail down a spot in the starting XV week in week out.
Verdict: Not good enough to challenge POC, Ryan, DOC but should be looking to break into the 30 man squad of the 6N as a medium term goal. Challenging Cullen and Tuohy.

Madigan:
Was behind McKingley and Sexton last year but is now getting more game time and seems to be trusted more too. He runs a backline very well and in general his defence is good, it was his game management that needed improvement and it got it. He now bosses games and bosses players, moving them where he wants them. He still pushes the flair button which is good but he knows that at times it's best to kick corners or crash it up. Still has a lot to learn and the more he plays the better but he is coming along nicely.
Verdict: Should be in the 6N training squad but will probably lose out to Keatley, however the experience and the confidence it will give him should be invaluable.

O'Malley:
In the abscence of BOD McFadden was given a shot at 13 and did well without lighting the place up (IMO). O'Malley had been playing 13 alongside Fitz during the RWC and was playing well, making breaks, getting outside guys and remaining defensively solid. He got called up when McFadden was injured against Glasgow and performed brilliantly. He has shown that he is more than a guy with quick feet, he can pass well, he is an excellent line runner and his defence is more than just solid (even for such a small guy). Needs to hold onto the 13 jersey until January and hold of McFadden and then who knows.
Verdict: Will be in the 6N training squad and has a chance albeit not a great one at starting a game or two. (A lot remains to be seen)

Fitzgerald:
After such a disappointment in not making the RWC (and rightly so IMO) he has really taken the finger out. No more is he butchering try scoring opportunities or remaining a defensively solid but offensively useless winger. From day 1 back in the Leinster camp he has been making breaks and half breaks, holding on to passes. Linking well and offloading whenever it was on. In general he has become not only more solid in the basics but also he ha recovered some of his flair and agility. Still needs to start scoring tries but he is doing well. There may well be a huge tussle between Carr and himself. Needs to work out what position to play in also, 12, 13 or wing.
Verdict: Is still a utility man and needs to nail down a place singular in the Leinster team (12 IMO) he will make the 6N squad and will be pushing hard for a spot in the 22 ahead of Trimble or Earls

On a side note: was disappointed with Dominic Ryan and was really looking for him to kick on and be Ireland's answer at 7.

Overall there have been some very good performances which is only a good thing for Irish rugby and particularily in certain positions like 13 where Ireland are missing a guy who can try and live in BOD's shadow, we have a lot of options but we need someone to really stand up. ROG will retire in the next 2 years so we may need another 10 other than Keatley and Sexton. With Fla not playing yet it's a good thing Cronin is improving also.

Have I missed out on anyone at Leinster?
Would anyone like to tell us about some of the players in other provinces?
Does someone completely disagree in something I've written or have another point to add?

O'Malley has greatly impressed at 13 and did the same last season. He's about 3-4 years younger than Fergus McFadden who seems to be floundering.

Fitz isn't finished yet it seems and Cronin looks well.

Toner is playing well but I still don't trust his ability. Madigan isn't really good enough to be thinking about the 6 Nations.

Even though hes been playing very well its too early to be thinking of international games for madigan. maybe on the bench for a wolfhound game?

Been particularly impressed with toners offloading. dont understand why leinster dont just put him at the front of every defensive line-out and force the hooker to be more accurate.

If darcy is rested for the next pro12 game then i can see o malley playing 13 in the heiniken cup other wise i think mcfadden might play.

Fitz really needs to stick to the one position. hes playing very well atm but he still isnt scoring which is a big worry if hes thinking of playing on the wing for ireland.

Strauss will need to raise his game to keep cronin out of the team, but kidney really doesnt seem to trust him.

I don't think Madigan will play in the 6N but he may get into the training squad as a fourth choice 10. More likely scenario will be that that goes to either Paddy Wallace or IHumph. Still it should be his goal and I think it is.

I think Toner is still a fair bit behind the pack upfront but he is catching and is an asset that we should still develop. When DOC, POC and Cullen retire I can see him being called upon at times and I am very glad he is improving so much.

Who would you pick out at Munster stag?

Yeah I think Toner could be used better by Leinster on defensive lineouts but it is good to see him getting up and robbing ball.

I don't understand why Schmidt would move O'Malley from the 13 jersey for the Cardiff game, maybe rest Darcy anyway and put McF or Fitz at 12. Darcy has played the last 4 or 5 games so maybe he will be rested.

Hope Kidney trusts Cronin more in the next 6N.

No i mean if he rests Darcy and plays McFadden at 12 with O' Malley 13 then he might keep that for the bath game otherwise i can see him playing McFadden at 13 in the HC.

Was also looking forward to Ryan having a big season but hes been unlucky with injuries. Ruddock i think has been very disappointing considering all the hype surrounding him at the start of last season.

I think the pair of them were quite poor and McLaughlin has been average. We thought the Leinster backrow were gonna make a killing during the RWC and it just didn't happen.

I can see him keeping O'Malley in at 13 for the Cardiff game regardless of who is at 12 and if O'Malley plays well again he may get a shot against Bath.

Where is Fitz going to finally rest?

Pete, there have been few real truly standout young lads on fire at Munster.

To me its been all about the squad effort. It truly took 23 men to beat Northampton and Saints and we have been able to do well despite a hefty injury list.

I can't figure out Munsters best XV there is a selection headache in nearly all positions. Thats as much because of mediocre performances by the front liners as by top performances from the youngsters.

Delighted to see O'Malley playing well. Fitz and McFadden i still feel will be hamstrung by their versatility but it is great to hear that Fitz is at least finding form once again

I have been very impressed by Keatley I have to say. He really ran the show for you guys at times when the RWC was on. He looks the business and tore Edinburgh to shreds particularilly good work for Barnes' try.

Hurley has been pretty good too I think and Chambers is starting to step it up

I agree Stand-
Particulaily McFadden as he isn't that great a winger, he is solid but he doesn't go looking. He was comfortably overshadowed by Carr on Saturday

Stand-

Any Ulster lads you'd put forward?

Pete you know what impressed me most about Barnes try was the communication Keately made. He got the ball and pointed with his finger for Hurley to move wider and into space. He did and it lead to the try. O'Gara should still start.

McFadden has never impressed me. I have never seen the hype.

Ignoring the usual suspects - Best, Ferris, Court, Trimble and Wallace not much to be honest.

Spence, Gilroy and Tuohy may well make the training squad but not sure if any have done enough to go further
Henry has played very well but backrow is a position of strength

Cave is the one player who deserves selection - he has looked very accomplished

I would say, in defense of Dom Ryan, he was getting some gametime during the world cup in a pretty weak pack. The pack never really had a grasp on any game he was involved in. When all the internationals came back he was dropped to the A squad, who beat Esher (I think) with a BP, but he sustained an ankle injury and will be out for 4 to 6 weeks.

He’s still a very young player (22/23 I think) and there’s plenty of time for him to improve.

I agree Stag, it was that shout that meant that hurley beat the hooker coming around and Keatley's pace too.

I just think Keatley has looked good for you guys especially during the RWC. I thought his game management was excellent and he still had his flair too.
He won't take over from ROG yet but maybe early next season???

I'd love Tuohy and Gilroy to be involved big time.

Yeah Mick he was behind a poor-ish pack but it wasn't that poor was it?
He didn't do it at the breakdown the way I had hoped.

And then there's Conway still to break through properly. A great Prospect at Fullback/Wing. There's also a great prospect at scrum half in the academy called Luke McGrath. Apparently he's very good. The Leinster academy must be one of the best in Europe.

I looked at the academy squad on the Leinster website. There's a a Prop called Tadhg Furlong. I have no idea if he's any good or not. But I hope he is because that's a great name. Sounds like a character from Fr. Ted.

Pete to me he simply must take over from ROG next season. If he doesn't get the #10 shirt before ROG retires he is no use to us.

We need players who don't give a shoite who's in front of them they want to get into the team.

e.g. Peter O'Mahony put Leamy on the bench. Murray has O'Leary on the bench. Donnacha Ryan has O'Callaghan warming the bench.

I want to see Keatley demote O'Gara to the bench and grab the #10 shirt off him. Its the sign of a top player.

Sadly not Pete.

Geoff has already mentioned Cave and bar the Glasgow game he has been nothing short of excellent.

-Marshall has got bugger all gametime. Gilroy has looked very solid but i think has been held back by our lack of a cohesive backline.
-Tuohy can be great or anonymous. Behind McCarthy and Ryan for me.
-Henry if his form continues through december is worth a look but that is dependent on the next few games but i would have him behind POM anyway.
-Spence has regressed.
-Mcallister hasnt seen much gametime. Injury has stalled him.

Trimble, Best and Ferris should be in the first 22 anyway

With all these players getting into the Ireland squad for the 6Ns, who falls out of the RWC squad? Darcy, BOD, who else?

Band, IMO we will see minimal change for the 6 Nations in personnell.

We will probably have a 45 man training squad where some of these guys will feature. Our real changes will take place in New Zealand.

Haha he does have a pretty awesome name!! And yeah it has to have, along with Tuolouse maybe.

I hope Keatley gets ahead of ROG (I much prefer the way he plays the game). He will get the Munster backs moving better also I think.

Stand-
I am a Tuohy fan I must say and Gilroy and Cave too, hope they are included in Kidney's plans at some stage.

Getting way ahead of myself but.......what do people reckon O'Malley's chances are of seeing game time in the 6N???

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Getting way ahead of myself but.......what do people reckon O'Malley's chances are of seeing game time in the 6N???

Decent chances. I'm fairly sure we'll see

10 Sexton
11 Trimble
12 Darcy
13 Earls
14 Bowe
15 Kearney

22 O'Gara
23 McFadden

However I would think he stands a good chance nonetheless.

Darcy won't be dropped and if he is played alongside Darcy every week at 13 it will certainly help him.

Wow I really don't want to see Darcy and Earls in the centres.
I think that could be a train wreck waiting to happen

red_stag wrote:Pete you know what impressed me most about Barnes try was the communication Keately made. He got the ball and pointed with his finger for Hurley to move wider and into space. He did and it lead to the try. O'Gara should still start.

McFadden has never impressed me. I have never seen the hype.

So you keep repeating ad. nausium...

Id be surprised if (injury permitting - which it could be) that wasn't the case. Though it will be another few weeks before Earls can play. He'll miss most of the pool stages of HEC.

Hope Munster can qualify and we unleash David Wallace, Felix Jones and Keith Earls on some poor unsuspecting quarter finalist

Does Kidney play Trimble much in the 11 position? Thought Trimble suffers from being behind Bowe on the other wing (kind of like Shaggy really only steps in from his right so would be lost on the left wing). I could easily be mistaken though.

It is the extended squad i think people are referring to. Realistically we may see a new 13 (although Earls to centre and Trimble to wing is still most likely).

In the first 22 i would (at the minute) like to see O'Mahoney, Ryan/McCarthy, Cave come in but it is hard to see the latter specifically getting in.

Poor Felix has been so unlucky with injuries. It's that damp Munster air. Should have stayed at Leinster.

G wrote:

red_stag wrote:Pete you know what impressed me most about Barnes try was the communication Keately made. He got the ball and pointed with his finger for Hurley to move wider and into space. He did and it lead to the try. O'Gara should still start.

McFadden has never impressed me. I have never seen the hype.

So you keep repeating ad. nausium...

Whats the problem with that. As long as there are discussions about him I will mention it. He had a top Churchill Cup about three years ago - however has been shunted from inside centre to outside centre to winger and therefore hasn't developed on the early promise. Darcy is a better 12.

Feckless Rogue wrote:Poor Felix has been so unlucky with injuries. It's that damp Munster air. Should have stayed at Leinster.

Band - yes he features there a good bit despite playing 14 for Ulster.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Wow I really don't want to see Darcy and Earls in the centres.
I think that could be a train wreck waiting to happen

Unfortunately the train has left the station already.....

I'd say O'Malley has a really good chance of getting in the training squad as does Cave.

However in terms of the starting lineup I don't think Kidney will look past D'arcy, Wallace, McFadden and Earls in the centres if they are fit.

Trimble has played both.
Earls is a great wing but I think could be a liability in the centre. Especially with Darcy there too. Trimble is pretty handy too.

I think you should make it now Stag considering NH lost to the Scarletts. I'd be surprised if you didn't.

I'd like O'Malley or Cave to feature at some point.

thebandwagonsociety wrote:Does Kidney play Trimble much in the 11 position? Thought Trimble suffers from being behind Bowe on the other wing (kind of like Shaggy really only steps in from his right so would be lost on the left wing). I could easily be mistaken though.

Thats were he mainly plays for Ireland and he's had some big games there. However I agree like Bowe and Horgan he looks more comfortable on the right, where he can drift infield. His passing is better right to left and he has a good left hand fend.

Bowe is nailed on though.

red_stag wrote:

G wrote:

red_stag wrote:Pete you know what impressed me most about Barnes try was the communication Keately made. He got the ball and pointed with his finger for Hurley to move wider and into space. He did and it lead to the try. O'Gara should still start.

McFadden has never impressed me. I have never seen the hype.

So you keep repeating ad. nausium...

Whats the problem with that. As long as there are discussions about him I will mention it. He had a top Churchill Cup about three years ago - however has been shunted from inside centre to outside centre to winger and therefore hasn't developed on the early promise. Darcy is a better 12.

Have to agree, I harped on about this just before the WC, that McFadden couldnt get a game ahead of Fitzgerald at 11 despite the fact that Fitzgerald was in the worst form of his career and everyone thought he should be dropped. That season, when McFadden couldn't get ahead of Fitzgerald at 11, he also couldnt buy a game at 12, think he played 12 last season about twice in the Leinster seconds.

In fact looking at McFadden over the last two season, there really is incredibly little to be impressed with, Leinster fans have hyped this guy beyond all belief and I just cant see what its based on. In fact when you ask Leinster fans the response you get is along the lines of ....McFadden had one amazing game were he did everything right some time 2 seasons ago.

A combination of being ridiculously over hyped and poor coaching has done this guy a lot of damage in my view. He doesnt have a position, because lets face it if he cant play at 11 when Fitzgerald is in the dumps then he cant play 11. He cant buy a game at 12 for Leinster either and thats when D'Arcy was in dire form for a lot of last season as well. There are much better 13's around the same age as him such as O'Malley, Spence and Cave.

Think its back to the drawing board with McFadden to be honest.

I agree Dodger. He's nothing but a poor mans Paddy Wallace....

Dodger - you could add that he has a number of years on Cave-EOM-Spence.

thebandwagonsociety wrote:Dodger - you could add that he has a number of years on Cave-EOM-Spence.

Irrelevant.

Can I just add, that having a situation at Leinster were Fitzgerald and McFadden were both fighting for the 11 shirt should of been advantageous to Irish rugby - instead its turned into a bloody fiasco and done both players a lot of harm as a result of very poor coaching in my view.

Firstly Fitzgerald should of been dropped last season and McFadden given game time at 11. This would of given McFadden the chance to build some form at 11 and it would of given Fitzgerald a boot up the arse to find his form again. Instead what happened was that Fitzgerald would not be dropped by Schmidt (some say the instruction came from Kidney) so he didnt find his form again, McFadden got no game time because a badly out of form Fitzgerald was still being played.

The penny then seems to drop that Fitzgerald has to be dropped and McFadden goes to the WC instead of him, despite the fact that somebody was keeping Fitzgerald ahead of McFadden for Leinster all of last season up until the WC - ridiculously poor coaching to be frank and as I said damaged both McFadden and Fitzgerald in my view, when really they should of been bringing out the best in each other.

I like how good he is at staying up in contact and driving his legs. I like that he is quick and has good enough hands. I like the fact that he can kick better than most other 12's in Ireland.

However I do agree that his reputation is now bigger than he is.

I love his low center of gravity.

O'Malley is playing well. He's BOD's replacement. He won't be as good as a young BOD obviously. But he might be better than old BOD soon enough.

Feckless Rogue wrote:O'Malley is playing well. He's BOD's replacement. He won't be as good as a young BOD obviously. But he might be better than old BOD soon enough.

The most sensible post on the subject of Irelands future for #13 that I've seen.

Nobody has mentioned James Downey @12, after 41 posts. That must be some sort of record, esp as he can sing dance & play every instrument you care to mention!

We have options guys. I firmly believe that while the clas coming through/half through already might lack the absolute brilliance of a BOD or to a lesser extent POC, the depth of talent is VASTLY superior and the level of talent appears to be higher that that of the 'Golden Generation'. Now please do not think I am insulting the excellence of the second generation of pro Irish Rugby player; merely making the point that the potential of those coming after is of a higher collective standard, and should someone be able to become a similarily iconic player as in BOD or POC, then I thik we could, finally, really take a seat of relative permanence with the Big 3 & France. And, beat them away more often. Once in the SH and the same in Paris is markedly below the success of the Provinces (Obv I know the Provs can play in the SH, but i think you get my point)

I mean, between them Leinster and Munster must have close to if not an actual winning record in France in the HC. Ireland have won there once in the last 13/14 attempts (the pre 2000 results are even more depressing)

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:I like how good he is at staying up in contact and driving his legs. I like that he is quick and has good enough hands.

That leg drive looks more effective than what it is. What it mostly produces is slow ball and allows the oppositions defence to reorganize.

He has a very limited range of passing from what I've seen and struggles to pass left to right.

Even in those clips from the churchill cup he actually takes the wrong options on numerous occaisions and doesn't play with his head up.

By contrast Luke Fitzgerald is an extremely clever and talented player and we haven't seen the best of him yet for Ireland.

True he does seem a little contact hungry also which can be a bit of a nuissance (a la Darcy). I think his leg drive is pretty effective myself.

What do people make of Toner? If he keeps up this upward curve does he have a shot? How old is the lad? 24?

I personally don't think Toner is anything more than a Pro 12 standard player. Hope I'm wrong. He's 25 I think.

24/25 sounds about right.
I think he has done really well in the HCup games he has played in so far. The standard of the Leinster loose play and lineout went up a notch when he came on and he really shifted the ball to space well instead of taking contact.
Not sure he is an Irish player but lock tend to peak late so fingers crossed

Feckless Rogue wrote:I personally don't think Toner is anything more than a Pro 12 standard player. Hope I'm wrong. He's 25 I think.

Agreed - not good enough for International rugby

He has POC-Ryan-DOC-Cullen-McCarthy-Tuohy ahead of him.

With DOC and Cullen and possibly McCarthy likely to retire before the next world cup he could be fourth choice he has a shot I think.

Nagle and McLaughlin (looking less like a lock every month ) are the only ones I can think of coming through.

Munster has several young second rows coming through.

- Dave Foley
- Dave O'Callaghan
- Ian Nagle

All have seen Pro 12 game time and although Nagle is the darling boy after his display against the Wallabies last year, I would think that one of the other two could fare better in the long run.

I disagree actually, I expect Toner to be in the extended 6N squad. I'd say he's just behind Doc and Ryan in the pecking order and level pegging with Tuohy.

Like Ryan he seems to be thriving with the regular game time (surprise, surprise).