THe Welsh Regions want CENTRAL CONTRACTS for Welsh Players

Nigel Davies believes that the issue of central contracts should be put on the table to keep Welsh talent in Wales.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/16059201.stm

This could be great for Welsh Rugby

I agree I think its great. Dont see the problem once the Union can afford it.

Smart idea. Wales just need someone like Rob Andrew to broker the deal.

Great Idea - no reason why we can't implement this.

I agree, pretty excited about them wanting this, it would work out well for all parties.

I thought the previous history was that the regions benefactors didnt want central contracting...?

If anyone knows more please post...

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:Smart idea. Wales just need someone like Rob Andrew to broker the deal.

We have Stuart Gallagher. He doesn't interfere, he is an ex-Scarlets man so may well be behind this too.

I think this is a golden opportunity to finally get things right in the regional world.

It works for the SH teams and Ireland and we have pretty much the same set up.

The regional benefactors must finally admit that they can't do it alone.

However this is also an opportunity for the WRU to impose some stricter regulations around foreign players by reducing NWQ down to say 3.

It makes sense all round really as the regions are without these players for such large parts of the season that they are loathe to retain them as we have seen with the Ospreys. But what we need is to keep all our best players here. It has worked well for Ireland and we have seen success for Munster Leinster and Ulster in the HC. It could also help stop the blocking situation where 2 squad players are at the same region playing in the same position.

I'd say 4 NWQ players is more feasible

If the regions are on board (all of them) then it's feasible. They 'rent' them off the WRU for the salaries. One issue would be how much you pay them. Would it just be their current salary? Or should they all get the same? Any idea how it works in Ireland/New Zealand?

Have always said this was the way ahead, we had two perfect opportunities when the game went Pro and again when we went to Regions but it was messed up.

If the clubs are up for it then lets do it but with the WRU having to be involved it will end up a complete horlicks.

I wonder if Nige realises with central contracting that the funding for his team will be cut? And I voted "good idea" btw.

Morgannwg wrote:I wonder if Nige realises with central contracting that the funding for his team will be cut?

you'll have to explain that one, it'll be cut to all teams not just the Scarlets.

It should be designed so that the Regions try to churn out as many Welsh players as possible. Amount X for first team starters, amount Y for Reserves and amount Z for quad members and training players.

I am sure it will amount to roughly the same. Why on earth would the WRU want to under fund the regions?

If this all went through in line with the ideas being talked about where the WRU do a great deal more in regional marketing then we could well see attendances rise too which would aid the whole scenario further.

it'll be cut because the WRU will be paying the players, that's the whole concept of central contracts.

Turkster wrote:it'll be cut because the WRU will be paying the players, that's the whole concept of central contracts.

I understand the concept but i don't think it will be cut, the payment will just differ from being a one large sum to being an amount paid to compensate the regions for all their work in development, organisation and TV rights moneys, minus the expense of Welsh Squad players wages, which would equal the Regions not losing anything they weren't already paying out.

With the way the Welsh rugby provinces are set up this really has to happen. The support and financial backing has a very definite limit and with the WRFU wanting increasing access to players it's a way to keep everyone happy.

Nige is always pretty spot on with things like this. I think it's a great idea, and one that needs to be implemented asap if truth be told. He says it himself, we don't even have a 3rd of the budget the French clubs have, how on earth are we supposed to compete?

I hope talks happen regarding this very soon.

Turkster wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:I wonder if Nige realises with central contracting that the funding for his team will be cut?

you'll have to explain that one, it'll be cut to all teams not just the Scarlets.

I knew that. I aimed it at Nige as he is the one being quoted in the OP. Explain? Well you did that in your post after this one.

maestegmafia wrote:

Turkster wrote:it'll be cut because the WRU will be paying the players, that's the whole concept of central contracts.

I understand the concept but i don't think it will be cut, the payment will just differ from being a one large sum to being an amount paid to compensate the regions for all their work in development, organisation and TV rights moneys, minus the expense of Welsh Squad players wages, which would equal the Regions not losing anything they weren't already paying out.

The WRU is a non-profit organisation because all the money it earns is invested back into Wales rugby (structure, teams, clubs, facilities, officials, coaches, players, etc..). So of course the WRU will be cutting the money they pay out to the Regions, probably in half I would assume. How is the WRU going to keep paying out 2 million each to the Regions and pay the players wages on top of that? Simply put, they can't.

Isn't the money they give the regions used to pay the players wages (which the regions won't need to pay any more). Or am I missing something? As far as I can tell the only way money will be gained or lost would be if the players get paid more or less

Morgannwg wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

Turkster wrote:it'll be cut because the WRU will be paying the players, that's the whole concept of central contracts.

I understand the concept but i don't think it will be cut, the payment will just differ from being a one large sum to being an amount paid to compensate the regions for all their work in development, organisation and TV rights moneys, minus the expense of Welsh Squad players wages, which would equal the Regions not losing anything they weren't already paying out.

The WRU is a non-profit organisation because all the money it earns is invested back into Wales rugby (structure, teams, clubs, facilities, officials, coaches, players, etc..). So of course the WRU will be cutting the money they pay out to the Regions, probably in half I would assume. How is the WRU going to keep paying out 2 million each to the Regions and pay the players wages on top of that? Simply put, they can't.

Subtract what you think the entire Welsh Squad earn as a wage from £8m and work out how much the surplus is. that amount has to go somewhere. i guess it will go to the regions or the clubs that support the regions and Wales. Where else would it go?

HammerofThunor wrote:Isn't the money they give the regions used to pay the players wages (which the regions won't need to pay any more). Or am I missing something? As far as I can tell the only way money will be gained or lost would be if the players get paid more or less

Aimed at maes to. The WRU will be paying every available Welsh player at the 4 Regions I assume. So you'd have to look outside the squad of 32-40 that get picked for Wales. Other money will be spent on staidums, clubs and facilities at all levels of rugby in Wales, not just the Regions and prem clubs.

Another advantage would to be deciding where the players play and impose lower limits on NWQ players. When Paul James returns from injury then the Ospreys have 3 loose-heads with a few good playing years left. They won't be able to have all 3 in their match day squad. Perhaps central contracting could see them move to one other of the 3, who all desperately need more front row players.

Would it mean that they will be forced to play meaningless internationals to raise funds that would clash with important fixtures for the regions.

I'm all for it but but the regions and WRU must work closely together,

Where is option 5?

Good Idea
Bad Idea
Have No Idea
Dont Care
HERSH

Has to be a good idea with Ireland winning Heineken cups by the bucketload.

Wales only reached the final, once and at the very first attempt.

Can any Irish posters explain how it works in Ireland? Surely Morgannwg it cant involve all available players. I would assume that there would be a core of players selected each season.

It's hardly an original idea - they should have done it eight years ago.

And the WRU are bound to mess it up now they are finally having a crack.

They're probably only doing it now because they want to sign Henson up to it - and he'll probably never play another game.

Cas,

THey should have done it 16 yrs ago when game went pro.

Focus on Rugby: Can central contracts work in Wales?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eG47idsw6Nk

The funny thing is that only the poor clubs want central contracting, we tried to do it at the onset of professionalism but Cardiff refused point blank so it didn;t happen, the advantage now is ALL the 4 regions are flat broke so now would be the perfect time.

Another option might be for the WRU to give players a contract while on Wales duty. I.e. if their called up for the 6 Nations they get a huge amount provided they play in Wales for a region.

bedfordwelsh wrote:Cas,

THey should have done it 16 yrs ago when game went pro.

Good point. Except only Howley, Gibbs and Quinnell would have been worth a contract?

Casartelli wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:Cas,

THey should have done it 16 yrs ago when game went pro.

Good point. Except only Howley, Gibbs and Quinnell would have been worth a contract?

Yeah fair one lol but at least system would now be in place

BOD has 120 odd caps at 32 and I believe (though this could be an exaggeration) only plays for Ireland and in the HC and top Celtic league games.
This is surely the way forward in terms of nursing Adam and Gethin to the next world cup. (And potentially Henson)

SubsBench wrote:Can any Irish posters explain how it works in Ireland? Surely Morgannwg it cant involve all available players. I would assume that there would be a core of players selected each season.

In New Zealand every senior player is contracted to the NZRU. If they see fit, they will move players from franchise to franchise. Dagg was moved from Highlanders to Crusaders, although it was argued he should have stayed put to help NZs weakest franchise become a stronger team.

It is the same in Ireland, all contracted to their Union. As mentioned, they only allow some internationals to play a certain amount of games per season. Which is partially why the Provinces will rest players at the start of the season or a fortnight prior to a round of european rugby.

The only way Wales are going to keep their young stars in Wales and available for the Welsh set up is to impliment central contracts.

Players such as Charteris, Faletau, Lydiate, Roberts, Gethin, Warburton, Adam Jones, AW Jones, North, JD2, Scott Williams, Priestland, will all be playing outside Wales before the next World cup unless something is done now.

The cost should not be great, gross funding will obviously have to increase, but Roger Lewis is allways boasting about the money that the WRU are making so is should be possible.

Centrally contracted players, the best 30 players on a season by season basis can remain with their current clubs, apart from where their place in the team is blocked by another Welsh squad player or a NWQ player. In such cases the player should be drafted into a Welsh region where they will be first choice.

It's slightly different in both Ireland and New Zealand as all the 'regional' sides are owned by the union. It would have to work differently in Wales without this centralised system. Possibly the top 60-odd players (full and A squad approximations) would be contracted to the WRU and the clubs would rent the players for a fixed term (e.g. 2 or 3 years) for a portion of their salary. That way the top internationals are contracted, as well as the back up. If the system works it can be expanded to more and more players I suppose.

A similar system (ish) was set up in Argentina. Except the clubs were non-professional so the players weren't rented by the clubs, just funded by the union. If the U20 players are also contacted the WRU can be involved in their development

I've just been reading something that could put a spanner in the works for central contracts, apparently the RFU are head-hunting Roger Lewis to take over as their new chief executive after Martyn Thomas, Roger Lewis has been one of the main reasons why the WRU have been doing so well financially lately, reducing debts by a substantial amount, would the WRU be able to replace him with someone of a high enough quality who could manage the change to central contracts? let's hope he tells the RFU to get stuffed.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/rugbynation/rugby-news/2011/12/07/wru-vows-to-keep-hold-of-chief-executive-roger-lewis-after-rfu-approach-91466-29907961/

didn't see this earlier thread started on the same subject, but then no-one's replied to it, so I guess the subject matter isn't that important.

https://www.606v2.com/t19752-england-want-roger-lewis

There's nothing in there saying he's actually been approached by the RFU. Just that he might be shortlisted by a headhunting firm. Nothing may come of it.

Also the only quotes are from Pickering who said that they want to keep him (bear in mind that he's also been approached by a London media job and this could have been in reference to that). Was it Wales Online that said Dia Young was approached by Leicester? I do wonder sometimes what these stories are based and how much of it is fact and how much is pure speculation

It was in the western mail this morning, although it wasnt the goblin Andy Howell this time.

Id take this with a pinch of salt tbh.

Personally, I think central contracting is something that the WRU needs to implement sooner rather than later. Given the age profile of a lot of the Welsh team they will attract a lot of interest (& cash) from top 14 clubs over the next few years - the Welsh regions on their own will have no chance of competing with what will be on offer from the French.

The set up in Ireland has proven to be very effective in fending off interest from foreign clubs - especially from France - over the years. Having all 4 provincial sides controlled by the IRFU means that there are certain economies of scale available that can be used to beef up the top players contracts to keep them on home shores.

The WRU issue is if they are going to centrally contract players do they need to take control of the regions or can this work even if the regions are privately owned. My own personal view is that the WRU would need to take over the regions as player loan agreements could turn things into a bit of a mess.

I dont think that the WRU need to take over the regions.

If they do it I think it will be the WRU topping up contracts of those players in the national squad who play in wales. The WRU will want more access to those players and more control than they have now.

The problem with the regions remaining independent is that there are only 4 regions. Lets say the WRU centrally contact 45 players. On any given weekend the WRU could turn to a regions coach (who is answerable to the regions hierarchy only) that all his internationals must be rested - this could be 10-12 starters. I could see things getting very frosty between national and regional management very quickly, which would not be good for the development of either side. The elite system works in the AP as there are enough clubs involved to dilute the impact of central controls on a week to week basis. I would have my doubts about how this would work when there are only 4 clubs involved.

I guess it would work exactly the same as it works in nearly every major rugby nation in the world. Those that dont have central contracts are a minority. Even England and their ESP system is basically a way to centrally contract their assets from the PRL.

This could move forward fast, if the WRU are smart enough to seize their opportunity.

This could move forward fast, if the WRU are smart enough to seize their opportunity.[/quote]

mm,

And there is the problem - WRU and smart is not words I would use in same sentence.

Red Right is correct. WRU should have full control, the Regions have tried prosectuing the Union in the past and you can bet it will happen again.

bedfordwelsh wrote:This could move forward fast, if the WRU are smart enough to seize their opportunity.

mm,

And there is the problem - WRU and smart is not words I would use in same sentence.[/quote]


money comes into it also, don't forget the WRU are still in debt up to their eyeballs, even though they're doing a great job of reducing it.

They have a capital debt but they are running at an extremly good profit.

Yes Tycros

I don't think the WRU are making as many mistakes as they were making fifteen years ago.

Morgannwg wrote:Red Right is correct. WRU should have full control, the Regions have tried prosectuing the Union in the past and you can bet it will happen again.

Yes but the regions have done it back, though the WRU have taken advantage of the regions good will also.

I think players wages are now at the point where good intentioned Welsh businessmen who have a region as a bit of fun can no longer afford to be in the market for the top Welsh players.
Personally I'd like to see the WRU take control of all 4 regions, remove the non Welsh qualified players and concentrate on developing players, but in truth this has already happened, the regions cannot compete for top foreign players anymore and most are now developing from within their own academies.